Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 May 1983

Vol. 342 No. 3

Adjournment Debate: Closure of Rural Home Economics Colleges.

Mr. Yates

I should like to thank you for allowing me to raise this question on the Adjournment. I have been trying to have it raised as far back as the last session but there have been so many issues raised on the Adjournment that I could not do so.

I raise this matter principally because one of these colleges, that in Ramsgrange, New Ross, is in my own constituency but as a rural Deputy I would be most concerned about the training and education of young girls in the agricultural area. There are five of these colleges. There is one in Ramsgrange, County Wexford, with 67 acres. There is one in Ardagh, County Longford with 230 acres. There is one in Claremorris, County Mayo with 30 acres, one in Portumna, County Galway, also with 30 acres and one in Cork with 25 acres. At present there is a total of 260 students in full-time residential training. This is a one-year course for girls only. The total employment involved in this is 27 teachers whose salaries are fully recouped by ACOT and 25 others whose salaries are not. For 1982 the total financial aid was £446,478. These colleges have existed for 80 to 100 years and the work the religious orders provided was excellent in every way.

Last year with the closure of Saint Martha's in Navan the danger signals were flashing and then in the Book of Estimates published in November by the previous Government £100,000 was cut off the ACOT budget with the directive I understand that these colleges were to be phased out. The incoming Government inherited a very difficult situation somewhat similar to the case of the farm home advisory service. At least in that instance the Government were able to rectify the situation somewhat because the interested parties had got the information in good time but the managers and staff of these colleges were not aware of the cutback until quite late into this year. Therefore, their campaign to keep them open was delayed. They can probably be faulted for not having made exhaustive inquiries with the Department to find out.

I have visited Ramsgrange twice. Their major residential development was done in 1967 and the condition of that accommodation is excellent. You would think it was built only four years ago. The way the pupils and staff respect the property has to be seen to be believed. Normally enrolment for these colleges is done in April and May and the difficulty now is that they do not know whether there will be scholarships or not. They cannot advertise with certainty for enrolments and therefore their future is in jeopardy.

The question of whether the curriculum of these colleges is relevant in these times of financial stringency has come up many times. The managers and teachers involved have utter and total flexibility. If ACOT, the Department or any independent group were to tell them to change their curriculum they would be more than willing to do so. For male agricultural training the cutback has only been 3 per cent whereas for females it is 25 per cent. I would like to say how important the areas covered by these colleges are. In the dairying area their aim is that each student would be able to operate a dairy unit — milking, dairy hygiene, calf rearing, the treatment of common diseases, feeding and management and the production of dairy products such as cheese, butter and yoghurt. These colleges are the only ones providing the type of education and training that will give farm enterprises the additional income that is needed. We know how helpful it is for family farms to have added incomes through home crafts, the production of dairy products and small edible items that can contribute to the lowering of the import bill.

With the closure of the Munster Institute these colleges are the only institutions that provide poultry teaching. That involves the area of broilers, hens laying eggs, turkey production, ducks, geese and nutrition and diseases relative to those birds. Where a husband is involved in dairying or cereal growing it is very useful if this can be supplemented by small enterprises such as the growing of broilers, egg production or turkey production coming up to Christmas.

In relation to horticulture they teach the cultivation, sowing and management of vegetables and fruit, the propagation of shrubs and house plants. Many farmers in former years had a subsistence approach in relation to their domestic consumption needs. This could bring this back. They go into the whole area of home crafts. There is needlework and crafts where they learn pattern layout, sewing techniques, use and servicing of machines, renovation, costings, curtain making, dressmaking, knitting, crochet and embroidery.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Deasy)

Oklahoma.

Mr. Yates

All these students having completed their year's course are fully qualified and equipped in this area.

Mr. H. Byrne

Would a fellow not be blessed?

Mr. Yates

On cooking and nutrition they do from the most elementary cooking to the most advanced stages. I think it is important to note that hospitals and many other institutions both public and private, when they are trying to filter through the number of applications for cooks and so on especially take note of applicants who have the qualifications from these home economic colleges because they know that their teaching in relation to hygiene, cooking and home management is such that they are excellent for the job. This is far more effective than the teaching provided by CERT or any of the more commercial cooking courses which are unrelated to the needs of hospitals and so on. In the area of child care, first aid, psychology, typing, pastoral care and farm accounts they provide a comprehensive service. Not only are they doing this but they are prepared to adapt, if anybody suggests that these are outdated curricula, to whatever is required.

It is also important to evaluate where past pupils have gone and what they have done as a result of the training and education they received in these colleges. In the period 1965 to 1981 60 per cent of the girls returned to family farming situations providing invaluable help on those farms. Others went into other forms of employment. As far as Ramsgrange is concerned every single pupil who finished last year found some sort of gainful employment. Straightaway I would like to scotch all criticism of the relevance of these colleges.

A statistical point, not in relation to the colleges themselves but in relation to agriculture, is that one out of every nine farms is controlled by women and one out of every four women in family farm situations carry out regular responsible duties. That demonstrates the statistical need to ensure that female agricultural training facilities are provided for girls on an ongoing basis.

On the history aspect no one in this House can have any idea of the degree of concern and upset this is causing some members of religious orders in these colleges. I know nuns of 80 and 90 years of age who feel this is the end of an era; they having given their lifetime in the St Louis Order in the case of Ramsgrange to the training and education of young girls and are now given to understand that Ramsgrange will be closed.

In regard to expenditure the total last year was £446,478 for the five colleges. The scholarship was £726 for each eligible applicant. On top of that there was of course the capitation grant of £220 per pupil. The ACOT deficit of £100,000 will mean the phasing out of these scholarships. The reality of the situation is that scholarships for male agricultural colleges have been reduced to £500 if the income is under £7,000 and to £300 if the income is over £7,000. Those concerned in these colleges would be only too delighted to accept that cut which would mean a considerable saving to the Department and to ACOT but would ensure the survival of the colleges.

If we look at the activities of the respective management and the vested interest groups in these colleges to discover what efforts they have made to keep the colleges open it makes very interesting reading. I have been involved in a great deal of this. They have had discussions at ministerial level with the Department of Agriculture and have received every sympathy. Detailed submissions have been made to the Department of Education and to the Youth Employment Agency. The managers are represented by the FUE. Only yesterday they had discussions with that particular body. The teachers are represented by the ASTMS. They have had detailed negotiations with them.

Only yesterday I was part of a deputation with the Minister of State with responsibility for women's affairs in relation to this matter. Each individual college has approached its own VEC to see if it would be possible that they would have any money, all because of the urgency of sorting out enrolments as quickly as possible. They have had detailed discussions with ACOT, the body primarily responsible for their existence. In all the discussions they have explored many different avenues and approaches in an effort to secure their survival. They are pushing an open door in relation to curriculum and financial restructuring and new relationships, or links with the Department of Education formalised through ACOT or irrespective of it. They are all quite happy to comply with whatever will be the wishes of those concerned. This is very poignant in the case of Ramsgrange in relation to enrolment. At present they have 50 pupils but they will lose two teachers regardless of the scholarship situation because they are said to be overstaffed. Ramsgrange is the only college in the south-east. I have also a categorical assurance that if they get the all-clear on these reduced scholarships, let alone their full restoration, they will exhaustively market the activities of these particular colleges to ensure they get the maximum number of enrolments.

There are a few side issues that should be pointed out. Some of the girls attending these colleges have been in some instances of a lower academic qualification. They would not necessarily have got into university on the points system and with the new regulation requiring two honours for regional technical colleges they would not necessarily get into these colleges. Colleges like Ramsgrange are, therefore, providing a type of personal development and self-confidence, together with a complete and comprehensive training and educational programme, for girls against whom we least want to discriminate. It is very important therefore we should do everything possible to support any type of education on these lines designed to help those on the lowest means and the lowest academic qualifications. Any cutback will have that direct effect.

In relation to cost effectiveness young girls in similar situations, should they attend an AnCO course, a work experience course or any of the other courses arranged through the Department of Labour, the Manpower Service, the Youth Employment Agency, would have rates of remuneration of £30 per week, and the cost of the colleges compares so favourably with that type of expenditure that it is simply not cost efficient to close them down.

On the grounds of discrimination and curriculum development and value for money, these colleges have historically provided an important essential input into the rural life of the country and into the family farm situation and many other facets of life. In raising this matter here this evening I do not wish in any way to do anything but assist the Minister and all those concerned in trying to negotiate. However this firm decision having been taken by the previous Government, the situation is very difficult. The estimates were accepted at the time. The colleges are prepared to negotiate with anybody. They are prepared to compromise. They will not do anything to upset the negotiations. We accept that the Ministers responsible for the Department of Agriculture have done and are doing their utmost to ensure through ACOT and the Youth Employment Agency, through whatever State agency, sufficient funds will be provided to continue this very valuable training and education programme for young girls in rural areas.

Mr. H. Byrne

On a point of order, lest this be seen as an exercise in opportunism, I would ask the Minister if he would, in all graciousness, give me a few minutes to support this very worthwhile debate this evening.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is an adjournment debate for which Deputy Yates asked permission which was granted. On the basis of that he was allowed 20 minutes and the Minister ten minutes to reply. If the Minister is prepared to give way that is all right. If not I cannot entertain Deputy Byrne's application.

Mr. H. Byrne

I accept your ruling, Sir. I am asking the Minister for a few minutes.

Mr. Deasy

I have eight or nine minutes. I do not mind if Deputy Byrne speaks.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will have about five minutes.

Mr. H. Byrne

I thank you, Sir, and the Minister for the opportunity of supporting what I consider to be an issue of very great importance. I compliment Deputy Yates for raising it here and on the eloquent fashion in which he made his observations. I support all he has had to say.

Education in agriculture down through the years has not been receiving the attention it deserves. Here we see a further reduction which I know the Minister himself and particularly the Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty, do not agree with. The Minister has an opportunity at this stage to correct this situation. If the House does not mind I would like to mention County Wexford. Everybody involved in this in County Wexford, particularly the VEC, have agreed to come up with four scholarships. I understand that ACOT and the county committee have met and discussed this on many occasions and they have arrived now at some decisions that I support here this evening in putting them to the Minister. The College at Ramsgrange and the other four colleagues have no objection whatever to changing the curriculum, but if they do that I understand that ACOT will be quite pleased to put forward such a submission to the Minister. However, £250,000 must be provided in next year's Estimates. I ask the Minister to ensure that that money is provided.

I re-echo the sentiments of Deputy Yates when he says that the role of the farm wife has increased. Because this is so the education provided for women in these institutions must continue.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Deasy)

If I had the money I could correct virtually any situation. Unfortunately, I have not that money and we have had to cut back on the allocation to ACOT and, in line with them, virtually every other body under my control. I am glad that Deputy Yates raised this question and I admired his eloquence and repertoire. For a few minutes I thought I was listening to Leonard Sachs, and between ducks and geese and Rhode Island Reds I began to think he would break into a song from Oklahoma. I am glad of his contribution and I sympathise with him and Deputy Byrne in their concern for the five colleges in question. I regret that cuts had to be made which will affect these colleges.

I would like at the outset to say that I have the greatest respect for these private colleges which over many years have educated many young women from rural Ireland. However, the question at issue is the appropriateness of continuing the current funding of the colleges from the Vote for Agriculture.

In regard to the present cutback in this aid, it should be stressed that the decision to reduce ACOT funding for the RHE colleges was made by the previous Government in the context of the 1983 Estimates. However, this decision was confirmed by me when this Government came into office. Among the factors which underlay the decision were the following.

The colleges were originally set up earlier in the century to equip farmers' daughters with the practical skills to manage a family farm home and to operate farm enterprises such as butter-making and poultry-keeping. Changes in social and economic conditions have gradually diminished the contribution they make directly to the training needs of the agricultural industry, notwithstanding periodic revisions of the curriculum. In the words of the ACOT expert group who examined the situation in regard to agricultural education and training in 1981, the one-year RHE college course "is largely a young home-managers' course with some emphasis on agriculture. It does not lead directly to a profession or career in agriculture and most girls take up a non-agricultural occupation on leaving". Data available on the destinations of 122 students leaving two of the colleges in the years 1980 and 1981 would confirm this comment of the expert group. Only 15 per cent of these students went to work on their home or other farms or proceeded immediately to further training in agriculture. By contrast, 56 per cent went into nursing, catering or secretarial work. This contradicts a statement which I saw in an article in The Irish Times a few weeks ago which referred to an ACOT survey taken between 1975 and 1980 which gave a figure of 70 per cent of these girls returning to agriculture. It shows how contradictory statistics can be.

Mr. H. Byrne

If all the colleges are taken into account the figure is close to 50 per cent.

Mr. Deasy

Those are the two sets of figures I have at my disposal at the moment. Training in home economics, which accounts for about 70 per cent of the RHE programme, is, of course, widely available through the general education system. The residential training system of the RHE colleges catering for some 250 students is an expensive one.

The existing State support for the RHE colleges is substantial, covering full recoupment of teachers' and technicians' salaries, grants for student capitation and management expenses, while scholarships are awarded through ACOT to the majority of students. In 1981, 75 per cent of the students got scholarships. In addition, capital improvements of the colleges are grant-aided to the extent of 70 per cent of student accommodation and 50 per cent otherwise. In 1980-81, 204 students attended RHE colleges. I exclude here the home economics college at Dunmanway, County Cork, which is only partially funded for RHE training. In that year total State non-capital expenditure, including scholarships, was £437,575 or £2,145 per student, as compared with £2,040 per student for university and £780 for secondary education. It can be seen from that that the cost per student is exceptionally high, higher even than that provided for a university student and 2.5 times that for a secondary student. In addition capital grants amounting to £56,000 were paid to the RHE colleges that year, bringing total subventions to almost £500,000.

The cutback this year by £100,000 in the ACOT funding for the RHE colleges involves a reduction of 22 per cent on the amount they received in 1982. On coming into office, the Government reviewed the decision previously taken in this matter but in the light of the serious financial situation they found themselves unable to reverse it. This was in line with the necessity stressed by the Minister for Finance in his speech on the budget that State spending on agriculture must be directed increasingly to those items which can contribute most to the achievement of higher farm output. This has inveitably involved many unwelcome decisions in the agricultural area such as that now under discussion. I might mention here that there is no question of discrimination against women by this decision, as has been suggested in some quarters. There is equal access for boys and girls to training in agriculture and horticulture, both in the residential colleges and at the local courses provided by ACOT. Indeed, numbers of agricultural colleges under my control have equal access for boys and girls. That is not widely understood or appreciated.

As to the future, the Government decision as it stands requires the phasing-out of the funding by ACOT of the RHE colleges in their present form. At the meeting of the ACOT Board on Thursday last, certain proposals in relation to the operation of the present course for a further year were adopted. These have been received in my Department today and a decision on them will be taken as soon as possible.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 10 May 1983.