Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Jun 1983

Vol. 343 No. 3

Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities: Motion.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Mr. J. O'Keeffe)

I move:

(1) That it is expedient that a Joint Committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas (which shall be called the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities) be established consisting of—

18 members of Dáil Éireann and 7 members of Seanad Éireann (none of whom shall be a representative in the Assembly of the European Communities)

(a) to examine

(i) such programmes and guidelines prepared by the Commission of the European Communities as a basis for possible legislative action and such drafts of regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions of the Council of Ministers proposed by the Commission,

(ii) such acts of the institutions of those Communities,

(iii) such regulations under the European Communities Act, 1972 (No. 27 of 1972), and

(iv) such other instruments made under statute and necessitated by the obligations of membership of those Communities

as the Joint Committee may select and to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas; and

(b) to examine the question of dual membership of Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann and the European Assembly and to consider the relations between the Irish representatives in the European Assembly and Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann and to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas;

(2) That provision be made for the appointment of substitutes to act for members of the Joint Committee who are unable to attend particular meetings and that members of either House, not being members of the Joint Committee, be allowed to attend meetings and to take part in the proceedings without having a right to vote;

(3) That representatives in the Assembly of the European Communities, who are also members of either House, be notified of meetings and be allowed to attend and take part in proceedings without having a right to vote:

(4) The Joint Committee shall subject to the consent of the Minister for the Public Service, have power to engage the services of persons with specialist or technical knowledge to assist it for the purpose of particular enquiries;

(5) That the Joint Committee, previous to the commencement of business, shall elect one of its members to be Chairman who shall have only one vote;

(6) That all questions in the Joint Committee shall be determined by a majority of votes of the members present and voting and in the event of there being an equality of votes the question shall be decided in the negative;

(7) That every report which the Joint Committee proposes to make shall, on adoption by the Joint Committee, be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas forthwith, whereupon the Joint Committee shall be empowered to print and publish such report together with such related documents as it thinks fit; and

(8) That five members of the Joint Committee shall form a quorum of whom at least one shall be a member of Dáil Éireann and at least one shall be a member of Seanad Éireann.

The Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation was first established in 1973. It is dissolved when the Dáil and Seanad are dissolved and must be reconstituted by orders passed by each House of the Oireachtas.

It was decided when we joined the European Communities to set up a committee——

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order, it was our understanding that the moving of these resolutions setting up the committees would first be done formally——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has no information on the matter.

Mr. Haughey

We had no information that the Minister of State proposed to make a substantial statement on this matter. Indeed, the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach has already made a statement — one that we were not aware he would make — about the Joint Services Committee. We did not object to his doing that, but if the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs is going to make a major statement about this committee I must protest that we have not been given any notice.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has no information about that. There may be some arrangement between the Whips of which the Chair is not aware.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I did not intend making a major speech but I thought it would be appropriate to give the House the background and the slight changes in the terms of reference which apply now. However, if the Leader of the Opposition does not wish me to do this I have no objection.

Mr. B. Ahern

It is proposed to set up five committees this morning. My understanding was that the motion would be moved with perhaps a brief comment. We had hoped to finish the Estimate on Health by 2.30 p.m. today. If we were to debate the five committees we would lose a considerable amount of time. In the past occasionally brief comments were made but certainly not a speech from a circulated script.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

If it would help the House, instead of going through my full statement perhaps I might refer to the salient points, in particular the changes ——

Mr. Haughey

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

So far as the Chair is concerned, the Minister of State is in order.

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order, we agreed to the Order of Business on the basis that the setting up of these committees had already been agreed and would be just a formality this morning. If there is to be a departure from that I wish to protest about it. We will have to take some action in regard to the setting up of the committees.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate the position of the Chair. As far as the Chair is concerned, the Minister of State is in order.

Mr. Haughey

I understand the Chair's dilemma.

The Taoiseach

I cannot understand the objection of the Opposition to explaining to the public why a committee is being established and the changes proposed. Surely the democratic process will only work if we explain ourselves? Why should this be suppressed?

An Ceann Comhairle

There does not appear to be agreement on the matter. Therefore, the Chair will proceed in accordance with Standing Orders.

Mr. Tunney

On a point of order, with regard to the motion moved by the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, I should have liked to have contributed to that motion.

The Taoiseach

Why did the Deputy not do so?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy referring to the previous committee?

Mr. Tunney

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

There was nothing to stop him or any other Deputy from speaking.

Mr. Tunney

I got the impression there was.

An Ceann Comhairle

If people are going to be guided by impressions——

Mr. Tunney

I am guided entirely by the arrangements for debate today on the Estimate for Health. I did not take it that, strictly speaking, there was a motion before the House. Am I to take it from you now that in respect of these committees there are motions before the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

Of course there are motions. I am surprised at Deputy Tunney.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Boland

They are on the Order Paper.

The Taoiseach

They do not seem to know what they are at.

Mr. B. Ahern

I do not believe there is any reason for an argument on this matter. My understanding is that what always happens when we are moving committees is that they go from the Dáil to the Seanad and from the Seanad back to the Dáil. It comes here about three times and the process is very cumbersome. Perhaps at a later stage if necessary we can have a debate on it. My understanding this morning was that we would just move them. If there is to be debate on them I suggest that we leave it over until Wednesday and then if necessary we can have a debate. I did not inform the spokesman for my party, who would be interested in this. I told two of them yesterday, as I told the Front Bench, that it was just a matter of moving it. I do not know if I got that wrong. If we leave it until Wednesday, then if need be we can have a discussion.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Order of Business was read out this morning and agreed. The Chair then proceeded to put the Order of Business as announced this morning and agreed. Item No. 1 was dealt with by a motion, of course. Everything is by motion. Item No. 7 was dealt with by motion which was agreed, and item No. 8 was agreed by a motion. Now we are on item No. 9. If there is agreement that there be no debate, that is all right. If there is an agreement to leave it over the Chair must proceed in accordance with Standing Orders.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. Barrett,

Dún Laoghaire): We are anxious to establish these committees and we want to get on with them. In fairness to the Deputy, he may have misunderstood. I did not make a speech about moving the motion on the establishment of committees. I am pointing out the intentions behind it. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Keeffe, was about to do the same thing.

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order, or on a point of information——

An Ceann Comhairle

Is it a point of order or a point of information?

Mr. Haughey

A point of order. Deputy O'Keeffe's speech contains the following: "Steady if slow progress was made in the areas of regional and social policy. The operation—"

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Haughey, I am sorry, that is not in order.

Mr. Haughey

These are statements of policy.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order. Either we are proceeding with this or we are not and there is no use in assuming agreement if there is not agreement.

Mr. Barrett

(Dún Laoghaire): If Deputy O'Keeffe would be allowed to make a few brief comments ignoring the script we would get on with establishing the committees and if anybody wishes to have a proper discussion, as we have agreed previously, we will allow it. I respect the Opposition's right to come back and they may wish to reply. I do not think anybody wants to cause embarrassment to anyone in this situation. There was a genuine misunderstanding. I know what I set out to do when I moved those two motions. Basically we want to achieve the establishment of these committees. If there are changes those who are moving them should be allowed to explain them.

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order, our understanding was that the moving of these committees would be formal. The text which I have of the statement of the Minister of State includes statements of substance in regard to policy. I want to suggest that that is not a formal moving of the setting up of a committee.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Haughey is making that statement to the Chair as if the Chair had discretion or authority to do something about it. The Chair has not. The Chair simply calls out item No. 9: it is a motion and the Minister of State moves it. As far as the Chair is concerned it has no control on the length of speeches or anything else.

Mr. Haughey

May I ask you a question?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes.

Mr. Haughey

Was it your understanding that the setting up of these committees would be a simple formality? Were you aware that that was the position? If you are not so aware and if you would accept that that was our understanding, would you accept that there should not be any statement dealing with the policy of the committees?

An Ceann Comhairle

The answer to Deputy Haughey's question is that the Chair was given no information that there was any restriction on a debate in moving these motions. The Chair does not know whether a thing will be agreed until it is called.

The Taoiseach

It is most unfortunate that the establishment of these committees by agreement should be a cause of controversy. As I understand it, on our side there was simply a desire to explain what was being done with the new committee and the intention was in regard to another committee to explain changes in its terms of reference. I am sorry if a misunderstanding on the part of the Opposition about the rules of order has arisen. Some communication problem has led to this. We would not wish to press this. It is a pity the public cannot be told what the committees are about. If there has not been an understanding on it, we do not wish to become involved in controversy and we would prefer just to move the motions formally if the Opposition so insist.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

It is a pity the public cannot be told what this is about.

Mr. Haughey

This will affect our attitude to committees. It will create chaos instead of reform here in this House.

Question put and agreed to.

Message to be sent to Seanad Éireann requesting its concurrence in this Resolution.