Vol. 344 No. 7
Dún Laoghaire): I move:
That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders and in the Resolutions of the Dáil of 8 June and 14 June, 1983, relating to sittings and business—
(i) the Dáil shall sit later than 11.00 p.m. on Wednesday, 6 July 1983 and on Thursday, 7 July 1983 and the hour at which business is to be interrupted each day shall be 12 midnight; and
(ii) consideration of Government business shall not be interrupted this week at the time fixed for the taking of Private Members' Business.
I call on Deputy De Rossa to move his amendment.
What the Leader of the Opposition is probably confusing it with is the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (Termination) Bill, 1983.
I move amendment No. 1:
To delete paragraph (ii).
Paragraph (ii) seeks to enable business to continue without any break for Private Members' Business this evening or tomorrow evening. This was decided on by the Government and Fianna Fáil Party Whips without any reference whatsoever to other Members of the House, Members like myself or Deputy Mac Giolla or the Independent Member. I consider that to be very high-handed, to say the least.
Private Members' Time is the only time available to Members of the Opposition to initiate matters of concern to them. Notwithstanding the fact that we have been unable many times since coming into this House to have any of the Private Members' motions which we tabled taken, the present Fianna Fáil Party, and the Fine Gael and Labour Parties when in Opposition last year, refused ourselves or the Independent Member any of Private Members' Time which should have been made available to us. I have been in touch personally with both the Government Chief Whip and the Fianna Fáil Party Whip and also, in writing, requesting that some time be allocated to us to discuss one or other of our motions which have been on the Order Paper for some time. We have approximately ten motions on the Order Paper. We requested discussion with the Whips to decide what time could be allowed us in order to have one of those motions moved.
A further effect of paragraph (ii) of this Allocation of Time motion is that the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (Termination) Bill, 1983 is prevented from being resumed. It should have been resumed this evening. Because Private Members' Time is not now being taken this week — and presumably will not be taken again until the Dáil reassembles some time in October — we are unable to have any discussion on the Bill which would lead to the termination of ground rents. I take it that it was that Bill and the statement relating to it to which the Leader of the Opposition referred. I did not make any statement in relation to the Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) (Amendment) Bill. I received a copy of that Bill only this morning and have not had time to read through it as yet. In principle I welcome the introduction of a Bill to establish rent tribunals. However I should like to read through that Bill before commenting on it.
It is only reasonable to assume that a decision not to have Private Members' Time this week, as agreed between the Whips, could be read as an attempt to avoid having a debate on the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (Termination) Bill, 1983. The ground rents issue is an important and urgent one. There are at present more than 30 people facing prison terms because of their objection in principle to the whole issue of ground rents. For that reason I should have thought it reasonable that some form of debate would be held on it before the House goes into recess for two or three months. That is not to say that any of the other items on the Order Paper this week are not important — they are — but it is unreasonable to expect Members such as ourselves to sit quietly and allow business to proceed without any reference to us, effectively denying us any right to initiate Bills or motions of any kind in the House. A number of other Deputies have complained from time to time that both Deputy Mac Giolla and I have been speaking too much. That criticism has emerged mainly from Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil backbenchers. I would argue that that is as much a fault of their longwinded spokespersons who, when they get in on debates, tend to prevent their own backbenchers from speaking on issues. It is important from our point of view and that of the Independent Deputy in the House that Private Members' Time be allowed to continue this week
Is the amendment being pressed?
Yes.
We take great exception to the removal of Private Members' Time from the Order of Business for this week. When I moved the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (Termination) Bill, 1983, last week I was given to understand that it would be resumed this week in Private Members' Time in accordance with Standing Orders. The removal of Private Members' Time from the Order of Business seems to me to be a deliberate attempt to muzzle us and prevent us from resuming that Bill. Last week a number of Deputies from both sides of the House came to us — Deputies not just from Dublin but from the country as well — expressing their support, hoping they would be given an opportunity of supporting our Bill. I think there is widespread support among all parties in the House for a Bill of this nature. It is a great disappointment that time has not been allowed at least to have a debate on it when we would have had the required number of Deputies for such a debate.
Some time ago the Minister for the Public Service called on the public to work a day for Ireland. I wonder why the rush to the holidays on the part of this House: could we not work a week for Ireland? In the motion before the House there is an apparent rush to cram everything into this week to get away by Friday. Surely there is ample time left in the remainder of July? We would still have four, six or eight weeks remaining for holidays in August and September. Ample time could have been afforded Private Members for discussion of the Bills before the House. I anticipated that there would be objection to a Bill such as the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (Termination) Bill, 1983, by property interests. In this connection the Irish Landowners Convention Limited are very powerful. I do not know if representations from that area have had any effect on people in this House. But I can say that the Bill which we were putting before the House is covered absolutely by the terms of the Constitution, in that Article 43——
The Deputy may not go into the merits of the Bill. I have allowed him latitude as long as he is in order. But, if he goes into the merits of the Bill, then he is not in order.
The Deputy is the only one in the House who is certain of getting headlines on the news this evening by some strange situation. We are all jealous.
We have no control over the press. Other parties have control of the media and that is their business. It is their fault if they cannot make the headlines; they must not be saying anything that is worth writing about or that the public is interested in hearing.
The Deputy has a few fellows planted where they count.
Sometimes when the Deputy is not in the House he is reported on the radio.
I am not forcing anybody to report what I say or do not say. I am anxious to make the point that we did not get an opportunity during this session to move any of the Private Members motions that are on the Order Paper. We have ten on the Order Paper, but we could have many more. However, there is no indication we would get time to consider them. If we are given time we will deal with those motions. Last week we were promised that the Bill dealing with ground rents would be taken in Private Members Time this week. Now it has been stopped and I am anxious to know why Private Members Business has been removed from the Order Paper for this week when we will rush off on Friday and close down until nearly Christmas.
In our amendment we are asking that paragraph (ii), "consideration of Government business shall not be interrupted this week at the time fixed for the taking of Private Members Business", be deleted. I understood that we had been given an assurance that the Bill we moved last week would be taken in Private Members Time this week.
Dún Laoghaire): Some misleading statements have been made by Deputies De Rossa and Mac Giolla. Nobody gave either of them an assurance that the Bill in question would be taken in Private Members Time this week. The Deputies in question sought to introduce their Private Members Bill last week and were refused by the Government. The procedure is that in the following week those seeking to move the Bill are given five minutes to state why they should have been allowed to move that Bill and the Minister in question is given five minutes to reply. To state that had there been Private Members Business this week we would have been dealing with their Bill is inaccurate. I did not give any assurance to either Deputy Mac Giolla or De Rossa that if we had Private Members Business this week their Bill would have been taken. In fact, it is not the business of the Government to order Private Members Business. Private Members Business belongs to the Opposition and if the Deputies had checked the Order Paper they would have seen that the motion in the name of Deputy Seán McCarthy of Fianna Fáil was scheduled for debate had the Opposition not sought precedence and tabled a different motion. I should like to correct the statements made by both Deputies in case people outside got the impression that had Private Members Business been taken this week their Bill would have been debated. It would not.
It was by agreement, in view of the volume of business we have to get through, with the main Opposition party that we will not have Private Members Business this week.
In reply to the remark with regard to a week for Ireland and the time needed for sittings, I should like to say that statements like that are bringing the House into disrepute. There is a general feeling outside that Deputies are now taking off on three months holidays. It is time we refuted such allegations. We are not taking off on holidays of that duration. On the Order Paper a number of Committees are listed to be established this week, with the co-operation of the Opposition. They are being set up so that they can get off the ground in July and September when the Dáil is not in session and when we do not have to arrange pairings. The Committees will be able to discuss their terms of reference so that they can act properly. There is a myth that everything must happen in this Chamber. A committee system operating effectively can do so outside this Chamber. Members taking part in those Committees can do a great deal of work instead of listening to a lot of the waffle that goes on in this Chamber. It is time we stopped giving the public the impression that we are going off on three months holidays. I will not allow that impression to be given and I defend the right of a TD, like anybody else, to take holidays.
If any Member checks the record since this Dáil commenced on 14 December last he or she will find that we passed a considerable number of Bills. We also established a number of Committees and had a number of special debates. It takes a lot of time to draft Bills and officials such as the parliamentary draftsmen must be given advance notice to prepare legislation for discussion here. That is another reason why there must be a break during the summer months. It is important that we should also correct the statement by Deputy Mac Giolla that we are breaking until Christmas. That is the first I heard of that.
I said "nearly Christmas".
(Dún Laoghaire): In case it is reported that the Dáil is going into recess until Christmas——
That is what Deputy Mac Giolla wants.
(Dún Laoghaire): ——I should like to put it on record that as far as I am aware the Taoiseach does not have any intention of adjourning the Dáil until near Christmas. It is recognised by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, and all Members, that there is a need to reform procedure. As matters stand, the Opposition who table a motion have precedence in Private Members Time. By agreement on this occasion the party whose motion was next to be taken agreed not to take it this week so as to facilitate the Government in getting business through the House. There was no collusion on the part of Fianna Fáil and the Government to block The Workers Party Bill on ground rents. An agreement was worked out between us. It is worth noting that the Dáil will be sitting until 10.30 p.m. tonight, midnight tomorrow, midnight on Thursday and until 4 p.m. on Friday. That represents a good week's work. I hope that when the Committee on Procedure and Privileges have an opportunity of reviewing the procedure of the House a facility outside Government time will be found for Members who may wish to table Private Members motions or have special debates on certain matters. That is being investigated by the Committee. We have had discussions on this and we are making efforts to ensure that every Member has his or her say. There is no attempt on my part as Government Chief Whip to deny The Workers Party their right, irrespective of what we wish to put forward. I hope that when we return after the Summer Recess we will have procedures whereby individual Members can have their say outside of Government time. I reject the amendment proposed.
Deputy Haughey rose.
I will only allow questions at this stage.
Surely I am entitled to speak on the motion?
I called on the Minister to conclude and I did not do that in a hurry.
I gave way.
I am sorry if there was any misunderstanding, but I will permit the Deputy to ask a question.
Deputy Mac Giolla has made serious allegations against us on this side of the House.
It would not be fair if the Chair allowed the Deputy to make a speech.
We should be given an opportunity to explain why we agreed to the Order of Business.
If I were to allow the Deputy make a speech I might as well tear up Standing Orders.
I will ask a question. I should like to ask the Government Chief Whip if, in the light of what Deputy Mac Giolla has said and in view of the fact that Deputy Mac Giolla is the one Member who can be certain of being fully reported on Radio Telefis Éireann tonight, he will confirm that the arrangements made were agreed to by us so that vitally important business can be transacted before the Summer Recess, mainly to deal with the problem that has arisen in regard to sea fisheries, the appalling situation that has arisen in regard to private rented accommodation and an important piece of legislation dealing with the energy situation. Will the Government Chief Whip confirm that we have sacrificed our right to Private Members Business this week in order to facilitate the Government, in the public interest, to get this legislation through?
(Dún Laoghaire): I confirm that. It was after detailed discussions with the Opposition Whip to try to get adequate time to discuss those important Bills that I got this agreement. A Fianna Fáil motion was due to be taken and because of that I should like to put on record our appreciation of their forfeiting their time. That was done so that legislation such as that dealing with a rents tribunal could be taken. That Bill was not on the original programme but because of its importance and the hard work put into it by the Department of the Environment, the Minister and Minister of State, the Bill was prepared. It was in the light of that the Opposition forfeited their Private Members Time.
Is the amendment being pressed?
I should like to ask the Chair to clarify a point for me. Does the Minister's reply mean that we will be allowed five minutes to move our Bill dealing with ground rents at some stage during the week?
The Chair can answer that. If this motion is carried it involves the elimination of Private Members' Time during the week and there will be no opportunity to discuss the Bill.
Do I not get an opportunity to reply?
As the mover of the amendment?
No. We had that the other day and thrashed it out on another issue.
