asked the Minister for Justice if following the breakdown of talks between himself and the representatives of the Prison Officers' Association, he will make a statement indicating the further steps he now proposes to take to break the impasse which has now arisen, so that the grave threat which now exists to prison security can be avoided.
Private Notice Question - Prison Officers' Dispute.
, Limerick East): I have put to the Prison Officers' Association a set of proposals which I believe to be eminently reasonable and which, in fact, they have not rejected. They have, as yet, declined to discuss them except subject to preconditions.
Because the present position cannot be evaluated or even understood without some reference to what has occurred over the last week, I should like to put on the record of the House certain facts. The high level of overtime in the prisons has been such that my Department had to issue a circular to prison governors on 11 October calling for a certain measure of flexibility in the level of prisoner-escorts. I mention the date to show that this is not something that suddenly arose last week. On Thursday, 3 November, the POA had certain discussions about the circular in my Department. Because they received no concession in the course of their discussions, the POA stated that industrial action would take place from midnight. They sought a meeting with me that same evening under that threat. They arrived at Leinster House and asked for a decision within ten minutes on whether I would meet them. Even if I were free to do so, which in fact I was not, I would consider it to be inappropriate and against the public interest to agree to meet an association in this fashion and the fact that the association should apparently think it normal to act in this way tells its own story.
I declined to meet them that evening. However, later that evening I offered to meet them the following week. On the following day, the offer was made specifically for the following Tuesday and on the basis that I was willing in the meantime to suspend the operation of the circular. Nevertheless, the POA twice refused to postpone or call off their industrial action until that meeting would have been held. On the second occasion the refusal was conveyed to my Department by the General Secretary of the POA who subsequently claimed that no such offer had to his knowledge been made. In the event, prison officers in Mountjoy, at a time when I had offered them a meeting and a suspension of the circular, took industrial action and persisted in it until some were asked to leave the prison and others followed them out.
The officers who took that action have not in the meantime been allowed to return. The reason is this. Prison security is closely bound up with the security of the State itself and it is essential that the state of near anarchy that has been prevailing should end. The Garda Síochána have had to be called into Mountjoy to maintain order and basic services. The public have no assurance that, if the prison officers concerned were now to go back to Mountjoy, we may not have further industrial action in a week's time necessitating another Garda intervention. We cannot have a situation in which the Gardaí are required to be on virtual standby in order to be called into a prison because of some dispute with the POA. The Gardaí are now in Mountjoy and I am not prepared to agree to any arrangement which would mean that they would come out only to have to face the prospect of going back again in a week's time.
The position quite simply is this. I am anxious for a settlement and for a new beginning. I am not looking for any victory over the POA but only a recognition that what has been going on cannot continue to go on. I have not set a 24-hour or any other time limit as some people seem to think. What I have said is a very different thing, namely, that if the POA want a quick arrangement for the return of their members, I see no reason why the settlement cannot be reached in 24 hours. My point is, simply, that there is no need for a prolongation.
I do not intend going into the details of what led to this stage in the dispute. Obviously the views expressed by officers of the POA and independent officers in the prison would vary with the Minister's account. In any event, the Minister has said he is anxious to have a settlement and that he has put forward proposals. It is my understanding a draft agreement was prepared and on the basis of this draft agreement the Minister would be prepared to set up certain machinery. This is spelled out in the draft agreement and the Minister has a number of specific requirements which were mentioned in the newspapers this morning. One is that all lawful orders and directives will be obeyed——
I have given the Deputy a reasonable length of time to lead to his question. I ask him to come to the question now.
The second would involve the re-introduction of compulsory overtime. The association are prepared to go back to work and to undertake——
The Deputy opted for a Private Notice Question as opposed to using another method. He should please ask a question.
I am leading to a question. It is a very serious situation and I am trying to be helpful to the Minister.
The Deputy has not been so far.
The Minister could do without making that kind of comment. The draft agreement has been prepared and the Minister says he is anxious to have a settlement. In the agreement there is a broadening of the requirements which suits the Minister in getting long-term harmony in the prisons. In the interests of peace and harmony in our prison service, I ask the Minister to allow the staff to return and let the discussions proceed under an independent arbitrator, if necessary, if this would be helpful so that the security of our prisons can be assured. There is very little at this stage between the Minister and the officers and I ask him to consider taking that step.
(Limerick East): I have already covered the points raised by the Deputy in my reply. The position is that we have to avoid the state of near anarchy in the prison system from continuing, where we had 21 industrial disputes this year and 18 industrial disputes last year under a different administration and where I and my three immediate predecessors have had innumerable disputes in the prisons with the POA. We cannot allow that to continue. I am not prepared to seek a solution to the particular problem outside the context of a solution to the general problem.
I should like the Minister to confirm that the draft agreement covers a long-term solution to the problems. It covers an agreement under which the officers would suspend all industrial action while discussions took place on the draft agreement. On the basis of that agreement the Minister would have a long-term settlement. I suggest that, in the interest of peace and harmony, the Minister should consider agreeing to meet with the officers and allow them back to work while continuing to achieve agreement on the broadly based draft programme he has put before them. Will the Minister not agree that there is a difficult situation in our prisons? They are overcrowded and too many prisoners are being shed——
Will the Deputy please put a question?
I am asking the Minister if he would agree that that is the position. In relation to overtime, if the Minister wished to do so he could reduce overtime by appointing additional staff but, of course, that is against Government policy at the moment.
(Limerick East): I am not prepared to negotiate across the floor of the House with Deputy Woods either in his capacity as Fianna Fáil's spokesman on Justice or in his seemingly newly appointed role as spokesman for the POA. The situation is that we have, as I have outlined it, three different services in this State and the security of the State in the final analysis depends on the Army, the Garda Síochána and the Prison Officers Association. We cannot have a situation in our prisons where they lurch from crisis to crisis and where prison officers are prepared to walk out, without any notice whatsoever, and leave dangerous prisoners unattended. I am seeking now an overall agreement. That agreement I have put before the prison officers. They are not prepared to discuss the agreement with me without pre-conditions and I am not prepared to concede pre-conditions. There will be no negotiation on the particular problem outside of the context of the general problem.
I would also like to inform the House that copies of the draft terms of the agreement which I have put before the representatives of the POA, both of their officers and yesterday to their executive before they walked out of my Department, have been put in the Library. These copies are available to Deputies to see for themselves the proposals I have put before the Prison Officers' Association. I am available all the time to discuss with the Prison Officers' Association the proposals I have put before them.
Just a brief supplementary question to ask the Minister how many times since his appointment a year ago he has met the trade union representing the POA and representing a big number of the employees in his Department.
(Limerick East): I have met them on a number of occasions. I will check the exact figure.
Would it be ten or 12 occasions?
(Limerick East): It would be more like two, three or four but there have been continuing discussions between the POA and the officers of my Department. Any of the Deputy's colleagues who acted in recent years as Minister for Justice will understand the position very, very clearly.
Was it one or two occasions the Minister said?
(Limerick East): I will provide the Deputy with accurate information when I check.
Because of the dangerous nature of this whole matter I do not want to pursue it any further. I would merely ask the Minister to withdraw the slur which he tried to cast, something quite unnecessary in the circumstances. My concern is about security and the danger of escalation. My great concern is that the prisons would be used as a means of confrontation with the public sector. That is something I hope the Minister will not do and I ask him now to give us his assurance that he will not use the measure for that reason in conjunction with his fellow Ministers.
(Limerick East): I am Minister for Justice and the problems in this situation lie within the ambit of my Ministry. If I have misinterpreted the Deputy's position on this I am willing to withdraw whatever particular section he considers offensive.