asked the Minister for Justice when the independent complaints procedure for allegations against the gardaí, which was promised in the joint programme for Government, will be set up.
19.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Independent Complaints Procedure.
18.
asked the Minister for Justice when he intends to put before the House his proposals for a complaints procedure which was promised in conjunction with the Criminal Justice Bill; and whether this will be a statutory or administrative procedure.
(Limerick East): I propose to take Questions Nos. 18 and 19 together.
As the Deputies will be aware, when the Criminal Justice Bill was published I issued a statement informing Members of both Houses that the Government had decided that the provisions giving increased powers to the Garda would not be brought into operation until a complaints procedure involving an assessment by an independent person or tribunal had been established.
The new procedures will not be brought into operation until both Houses of the Oireachtas have had an opportunity to discuss it. I am dealing with this matter with all possible speed and although some further work, including consultations with Garda associations and so on is necessary, I expect to be in a position to inform the House of the proposals in the near future. I think I should make it clear that the preparatory work has involved quite extensive research, including examination of the schemes in operation in other countries.
While a decision has not yet been taken on the point, I can say that at present the indications are that the scheme will be a statutory, rather than an administrative scheme.
I thank the Minister for clarifying that aspect, that at this stage he considers it is likely to be a statutory scheme. This will be most welcome. I should like to ask the Minister the reason for the delay at this stage because the different bodies have made several sets of proposals. It is quite clear they are anxious to have a suitable complaints procedure and it is difficult to see why there should be further delay at this stage. One of our principal concerns is that the Minister should introduce this complaints procedure in association with the Bill. He has not said if it will be circulated with the other amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill and I ask him specifically if it will be circulated with the other amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill?
(Limerick East): There has not been any particular delay. It is a question of having a lot of work to do, of lining it up in sequence and dealing with it as it comes along. Obviously the Criminal Justice Bill was a complicated piece of legislation and it is now ready for Committee Stage in this House. In addition, the complaints procedure is complicated. The indications now are that it will require a statutory base rather than simply be an administrative scheme and that has complicated the matter further. On the question of whether it will be available for circulation with amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill, it will not be available. As the Deputy is probably aware, it is my intention to circulate amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill this afternoon. I will proceed with all speed to provide an independent complaints procedure but it will not be done this afternoon.
Do I take it the Minister does not intend to make it available to the House before the Criminal Justice Bill is concluded? The Minister has said he does not intend to have it before the House when the amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill are being discussed. Is he saying now we will proceed with the Criminal Justice Bill without seeing what provisions he is making for an independent complaints procedure?
(Limerick East): It is not a question of intent, it is a question of a commitment given recently. As the Deputy is aware, one of the provisions of the Criminal Justice Bill enables the Minister to introduce the Bill as a whole or sections of the Bill by order. The commitment is that those provisions of the Bill that give extra powers to the Garda Síochána will not be implemented by ministerial order until the complaints procedure is before the House.
Will the Minister not agree that it would make the passage of the Criminal Justice Bill a great deal easier if people could see what complaints procedure he had in mind and it might facilitate the passage of sections of the Bill if this was on the table when considering the amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill? I should have thought the Minister would want to facilitate the decisions in relation to the different aspects of the Criminal Justice Bill. If it were available it might put at ease the minds of some people who may be concerned about some aspects.
(Limerick East): I am proceeding at all speed to have the provisions of the complaints procedure before the House. Secondly, it is important that the Criminal Justice Bill should proceed through the House. On the point made by the Deputy that the provision of a complaints procedure would help the passage of the Criminal Justice Bill. I hope it would do so. However, the Criminal Justice Bill will have to go through Report Stage and Fifth Stage in this House and go through all Stages in the Seanad before it becomes law. I am sure that when the Deputy studies the amendments I am circulating this afternoon they will help to allay any fears that might exist about the Criminal Justice Bill and I am sure they will help in a substantial way to get the co-operation of all Deputies in his party to get the Bill through the House.
Would the Minister agree that it would be important that Deputies, when discussing amendments on Committee Stage, would know precisely what form the complaints procedure would take so that that could be balanced against whatever powers it is proposed be given to the Garda; that it is not sufficient that we know that the powers will not be introduced until the complaints procedure is introduced? It would be important that we know what they are so that when discussion is taking place on the powers we know where we stand in relation to complaints to the Garda.
(Limerick East): Certainly the argument put forward by the Deputy contains a valid point of view. But there is another point of view and it is this, that the Criminal Justice Bill, as a piece of legislation, should stand on its own merits and, on Committee Stage, should be judged on the basis of whether it is desirable or is good or bad law. On the other hand, the complaints procedure should also be judged on its own merits, on the basis of whether it is desirable, effective or is good or bad law.
Consequently, I would be of the view that Deputies should accept the absolute commitment of the Government that the extra powers given to the Garda Síochána under the Bill will not be implemented until there is a complaints procedure with a strong independent element, and then go on to discuss the Bill on its merits. I would suggest to the House that the Criminal Justice Bill will stand on its merits.
We have been seeking a statutory procedure and I appreciate that the Minister is genuinely committed to a complaints procedure, but I would ask him to bring it forward as quickly as possible because certainly it will help in relation to the passage of the Bill.
Has the Minister any idea of the approximate time scale about which he is talking at this stage for the introduction of the complaints procedure, has he any idea in approximate terms of when that might be? My other question is: who does he envisage will investigate the complaints under the complaints procedure to be introduced?
(Limerick East): To get into that area would be to pre-empt or anticipate the presentation of the proposals. Obviously there is a lot of legislative work to be done on the Criminal Justice Bill and again on the complaints procedure. I might suggest that there be continuing discussions between the Whips so that people on all sides of the House will be facilitated in this matter.
The remaining questions will appear on the Order Paper for Tuesday next. Estimates for 1984, Vote No. 28 (resumed).
I should like again to point out the danger to the Irish fishermen because of the presence of British, American and——
If the Deputy has a request to make he should make it.
I am making it — because of the presence of British, American and Soviet nuclear submarines in the Irish Sea, more particularly because of an incident which took place on Friday last when an American nuclear submarine——
I am not going to have a speech from Deputy Byrne or any other Deputy under this or any other subterfuge.
There was another incident today when an Irish skipper lost ten thousand pounds worth of equipment. That makes it sufficiently urgent to ask you, Sir, at least to be allowed raise this on the Adjournment this evening.
My attention has been drawn to the fact that it is past the time now.
Because of its urgency, a Cheann Comhairle,——
Look, there is no way——
This has not been taken seriously in this House.
There is no way the Chair can accommodate a Deputy who wants to ask another supplementary after Question Time is over or can accommodate a Deputy who raps him on the knuckles publicly here for accepting a request like this after time. It just cannot be done.
I am asking you, Sir, to allow me raise it on the Adjournment.
I will take advice on the matter. I am informed it is after time. I am calling on Deputy Durkan.
A Cheann Comhairle, I respect your ruling and your right to rule but surley if Question Time did not finish until 3.32 p.m. and if we presume that a number of people rose to raise various matters, it would still be 3.35 p.m. or more——
These matters could have been notified or raised any time since 10.30 this morning.
It relates to an incident that occurred during the day.
This incident has been reported only now and, because it is so serious, I think you must take it seriously, Sir.
I will consider the matter and communicate with Deputy H. Byrne.