asked the Minister for Finance if he is aware that the Bank of Ireland is continuing to increase its share-holding in the Irish Civil Service Building Society and if in view of this he will as a matter of urgency convey the Government's decision on the matter.
Private Notice Question. - Acquisition of Building Society.
I am aware that the Bank of Ireland is engaged in purchasing shares in the Irish Civil Service Building Society. As I indicated to the Deputy in answer to a Private Notice Question on 6 March, the question of the possible acquisition by the bank of a controlling interest in the society is still under consideration by the Government.
Will the Minister give any indication as to when the Government will finish the consideration stage and come to a conclusion in view of the fact that the bank have now acquired what represents 15.6 per cent of the investment shares in this building society which is not, of course, mutualised? In view of the fact that a bank, or any other group other than a building society is free to bid — any one of the building societies required the Minister's consent — will the Minister not recognise that there is, to say the least of it, an inequity and, perhaps, the risk of a distortion or monopoly arising if a decision is not taken soon?
I cannot say exactly when the Government will make a decision on the matter. A decision on the matter to the extent that it requires a Government decision will not be delayed for any longer than is absolutely necessary.
In view of the fact that pending that decision a number of courses of action are open to the Minister, or the Government — for instance, to give consent to any one or other of the building societies to make a bid, something they cannot do without the Minister's consent, or look to the provisions under the Mergers and Monopolies Act, or to consider amending the 1976 legislation in respect of which exceptional arrangements were provided for the Irish Civil Service Building Society which allowed this bid from outside the building society now — which would suggest that action should be taken now after the consideration he mentioned two weeks ago in the House? Will the Minister not acknowledge that in the absence of that there is a risk that further shares may be acquired and that the confidence in this building society, or others, could for one reason or another be affected by developments outside their control?
I should like to tell the Deputy that what he has described as options, the different paths that are open arising from the provisions of the building society legislation, and Mergers and Monopolies Act, are all part of the considerations in which the Government are engaged. I do not see them as being matters which would require a decision to be made before they could be considered. They are all part of what we are considering in order to arrive at the correct decision in this case. I indicated to the Deputy last week what my concerns are in relation to this. I should like to ask the Deputy not to jump too quickly into the area of discussing what the effects of different courses of action might be on the level of confidence in any one or other of the building societies. I do not think that is the point that is at issue.
Will the Minister agree that the Building Societies Act, 1976, in particular section 22 (7), was introduced specifically to protect the position in the Irish Civil Service Building Society and to enable them to carry on holding these shares? Will the Minister agree that the Bank of Ireland by being allowed to purchase part of these shares, has eroded the rights of individuals to purchase the shares and that they have set the buying standards which ordinary investors in building societies could not afford to pay for them? Will the Minister agree that the purchase of these shares on two occasions by the Bank of Ireland has set a precedent whereby financial institutions can buy these shares and direct and take over another financial institution? Will the Minister agree that the 1976 Act was passed to protect the ICBS and that he, and the Government, should take immediate action to ensure that a financial institution like the Bank of Ireland cannot take over any other financial institution by buying out shares because there are no voting rights available on this type of purchase?
The particular provision in the 1976 Act to which the Deputy has referred was kept there by the House in recognition of the constitution of that society. I do not accept that any precedent has been created since that time. The shares of that society have been quoted on the market and anybody who wishes to do so has been free to make an offer to buy any of those shares. No precedent has been created in the sense of trading in shares. That is not something that happened today or yesterday, it has been there since 1976 and even before that.
Will the Minister agree that the Bank of Ireland already have a monopoly of the building society situation because they are the only named associated bank that building societies can invest surplus funds in, apart from Government stocks and gilts? Will the Minister agree that the fact that the Bank of Ireland are purchasing shares of another building society who got special exemption in the 1976 Act is leading to a position where overall monopoly control will be available to one banking institution of the building society business? Will the Minister agree that it is urgent that he should take action on this?
I cannot see that the type of situation the Deputy has described could properly be considered to be a monopoly by any one institution of the building society situation, as he called it, in the country. I cannot see anything in what the Deputy has said that could honestly be described as a monopoly.
Because of the fact that building societies are not in a position to bid unless they have the Minister's consent, is there not the risk of monopoly there? Is the Minister not aware that shares with a nominal value of £1 are being acquired by the Bank of Ireland at £17.50 per share? In view of that, and also in view of what Deputy Treacy has said, will the Minister assure us that before this matter is determined he will report back to the House on the outcome of the consideration that has been underway for some time to ensure the principle of mutualisation which is the characteristic of the building societies and the purpose of their regulations and the relevant legislation?
I have said to the Deputy, both today and last week, what are my concerns and those of the Government in the matter and the importance we attach to ensuring that whatever course of action is ultimately followed it will not have an adverse effect on the supply of finance for house building, on the housing programme generally or on the situation of those people who have loans from this particular building society. That concern is what has led us to consider deeply all the matters and the different legislative options that may be open, as described by the Deputy. With regard to reporting back to the House, that would depend on the kind of decision taken.
May I ask the Minister——
I appreciate this is the second time this matter has been raised by way of Private Notice Question and in view of that it is unlikely that it will be raised again by way of a Private Notice Question. In view of those circumstances, I urge the Minister to come to an early decision and to bring that decision before the House. He should at least indicate to us his decision so that a matter which is of pressing public concern will be conveyed here, as should be the case. That is all I am asking and I hope the Minister will undertake to do that.
I note that.
Is it possible there may be no decision?
I wish to ask the Minister——
There are two Deputies now on their feet. Deputy O'Kennedy asked for permission to put down this Private Notice Question and although one was put down a short time ago he was given permission to do so today. However, that does not mean it can be turned into a debate for the whole House.
I have to say that the Minister has dealt with this matter quite fairly, apart from the fact that his statement today did not contain any firm information. However, I wish to know from him if the Government will take a decision, will act having regard to their responsibilities and, finally, will they convey the decision to the House. That is all I am asking the Minister.
I have already said to the Deputy that the Government will take the decision they consider appropriate, having regard to all the factors mentioned by the Deputy and also by me today and last week. That decision could take one of several forms. There are several courses of action open. All I can say is that, depending on the form of the decision, we would have to consider what was the appropriate way of making that decision known.
I am calling Item No. 7. Deputy Lemass.
I wish to ask for the Chair's direction and advice.
I am not in the business of giving advice.
Then, I ask for a direction from the Chair. While I am familiar with the legislation which set up An Bord Telecom, I find it difficult to establish——
Because somebody did me the courtesy of telling me what the Deputy was going to raise, I wish to tell him that he cannot raise it here. It does not arise now.
It is very important as a matter of principle——
Some people seem to think that there is a procedure whereby at the end of Question Time Deputies may introduce the kind or irregularity that was introduced on the Order of Business. It is not even orderly to that extent. It is an invasion of the rules of the House and it is an interruption of the smooth passing from one subject to another. I have called Item 7 and I now call on Deputy Lemass.
On a point of order, this is a matter of great interest to every Deputy in the House.
The Deputy will have to find some other way of raising the matter.
May I seek the advice of the Chair?
No. The Deputy may come to my office and see me about the matter.
My question was to the Minister for Communications regarding the closing of the Nutgrove Post Office which is causing great hardship to the people in Rathfarnham. I find I am not able to place a question to the Minister for Communications regarding this matter.
The Deputy should seek advice from his Party Whip or some of the senior Members of his party. I am calling Deputy Lemass to speak on the next item.
I think it is the duty of the Chair to inform the House——
Not in that fashion. If anyone comes to my office I will be courteous to them and discuss the matter with them.
The Chair has always been courteous but I should like a direction——
I am not prepared to give it in this way.
In view of this situation, I should like to raise on the Adjournment the closure of the Nutgrove Post Office, Rathfarnham, and also the matter of placing questions in this connection to the Minister for Communications.
The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.
With the permission of the Chair, I wish to raise on the Adjournment the new situation that has arisen as a result of the acceptance of the milk super-levy by the Minister for Agriculture and the very serious consequences for the farming community and the workers of the country.
The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.
On a point of order, with regard to the order of speakers in this debate, I indicated early this morning that I wanted to get in on this debate. I have been waiting patiently for a number of hours and I offered to speak a number of times but I have not yet been called. Will the Chair indicate when it is likely I will be called?
The Chair cannot give any promises. However, the Chair will admit, for what that is worth, that if he had realised that Deputy De Rossa was offering at this juncture he would probably have thought about the matter. I do not know if that is any consolation. I have already called a speaker and I cannot go back on that. I am calling Deputy Lemass.