asked the Minister for Education the plans she has to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio.
10.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Programme for Action in Education.
9.
asked the Minister for Education when she envisages a movement towards the desirable objective outlined in paragraph 3.7 of the action plan in education, of an improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio in national schools.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 9 and 10 together.
As stated in paragraphs 3.7 and 5.11 of the Programme for Action in Education 1984-1987 the Government are committed to improving pupil-teacher ratios as soon as financial circumstances permit.
Could the Minister explain what financial circumstances she is talking about? Could she also explain how, no matter what finances are available to her, she can manage it with the reduction in the number of teachers coming out of the teacher training colleges?
I thought I had mentioned that several other factors governed the number of teachers available as well as the numbers coming out of the training colleges. I am sure I do not have to explain to the Deputy what financial circumstances mean. A country must deal with financial circumstances year by year and it is the job of Government to see what is available.
There are other factors.
There are priorities.
Would the Minister explain the clear conflict between nearly a 50 per cent reduction over the last few years in the number of trained teachers coming out of the training colleges and the desirable objective as outlined in her paragraphs in the action plan for education? There is a clear conflict between the two statements. Statistical information is given on the teachers available and the desirable objectives in the book. Further, the Minister said that the Government must deal with a financial situation each year as they find it. Is that not also in clear conflict with an earlier answer in which she harked back to 1983?
In answer to the second part of the question, I do not accept that there is a conflict. I was pointing out the history of a decision in the first instance. As regards the number of pupil-teachers leaving the teacher training colleges, I have tried to make it clear that the Department make every effort to tailor the number of students going into the training colleges to their estimates of the number of teaching jobs available, taking into account various factors such as the numbers in the primary schools, projected increases, stability or decreases, and how many retirements will be coming on stream. It is very difficult to forecast precisely the number of teachers who will decide to retire in any year. We can forecast slightly more accurately the number of intake into primary schools. Very many other factors apart from the intake into teacher training colleges govern the number of teachers available.
I want a clear answer.
That is as clear as I can make it.
Does the Minister regard as satisfactory the current pupil-teacher ratio in national schools in the face of her oft-repeated assertion of special aid to the disadvantaged? Would she accept also that disadvantaged begins and can be identified very clearly very early on in primary school but that the greatest disadvantage is large classes?
I think I have made that clear on several occasions and I agree fully with the Deputy.
Could the Minister assure the House that in respect of the bulge, as she calls it, that has moved from primary to second and third levels, she has made appropriate financial provision to cater for that expansion?
That seems to be a separate question.
The Minister gave the information to the House.
She referred to it. The Deputy is now probing it and clearly it does not arise out of this question.
You have the student-teacher ratio.
We are taking Questions Nos. 9 and 10 together.
The student-teacher ratio is applicable to second level even more than to primary level. I am asking what I regard as a simple understandable question arising out of the Minister's interpretation of where the financial demands will be. I am asking her if she has made appropriate financial provision for the expansion which she accepts is occurring and will occur at second and third level.
The Government will provide financial resources as they become available.
Particularly in regard to finance, will the Minister give us an indication of the priority which she attaches to the pupil-teacher ratio in relation to education? I am speaking of primary schools. Will she agree that with the existing financial resources a redeployment of financial resources towards primary level could effect a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio and this will be vital for our pupils all of whom go through primary level, all of whom do not go through second or third level?
I assure the Deputy that I gave a very high priority to the pupil-teacher ratio at primary level. On the question of resources, of course I will be putting in as many resources as possible. I think it has been pointed out clearly in the programme for action that priority in resources will be given to primary level and within that level to disadvantaged areas. The precise degree of those resources, as the Deputy knows, is not possible to state.
Would the Minister accept that the pupil-teacher ratio is the most funadmental issue that she has to tackle as Minister for Education to eliminate or diminish disadvantage? Is she prepared, in the context of a commitment within financial resources, to state to this House that within the next two years and by way of her submission to the Cabinet for the next budget she is going all out to get a commitment from her Government to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio within the next two years?
The pupil-teacher ratio has a very high priority, but disadvantage within the primary sector can depend on factors other than a pupil-teacher ratio, as I am sure the Deputy is well aware.
Is the Minister saying——
Allow me to finish the answer. Regarding the other question, the Deputy can be assured that I will try very hard to make sure that we can reduce the pupil-teacher ratio at primary level and within that whole question of additional teachers I will be looking at disadvantaged areas particularly.
Could I ask——
No. The Deputy is not even trying to play the game. Question No. 11.
11.
asked the Minister for Education if she will elaborate further on paragraph 2.18 of the action plan in education; how she envisages ensuring that school management at both primary and post-primary level will be made as responsive and effective as possible; and if she feels that there is need for special courses for educational managerial skills.
It is envisaged that discussions will be held with the appropriate authorities to see how school management can be made as effective as possible. It is intended that school management bodies will be encouraged to relate their school programmes to pupil needs through allowing flexibility in curricula as indicated in paragraph 5.3 of the programme for action. The proposed review of the system of posts of responsibility outlined in paragraph 2.20 is also relevant in this regard, as are the proposals to increase participation in management as envisaged in paragraph 2.19. It is recognised that in-service courses in educational management will be necessary as part of the programme for action.
Apart from matters being envisaged, considered later or deferred, what finance will be available, apart from that already announced, to enable school managers to take up suitable managerial courses? Is the Minister prepared to allow the finance to be used to deploy replacements for these principals when they are doing such courses? Finally, is she herself committed to the role of the manager in the primary school and therefore to the necessity in the world today to have special courses a principal could undergo so that he or she will be able to cope with the various issues and inspire and motivate the staff and students for life?
The inclusion of the question of management in the action programme was precisely the priority in helping managers to run their schools better. I do not have the exact figure with me but, as the Deputy is probably aware, the in-service provision in the Estimate this year was more than doubled and the actual proposals for the deployment of that will be given to me in the Department's proposals as to how the in-service training should be conducted. I can assure the Deputy that when we have had the discussions with the proper authority there will be in-service courses for managers and people with appropriate responsibilities as soon as possible.
How long does the Minister envisage the discussions will take before firm action is taken?
As long as necessary.
Surely the Minister accepts there is a need right now, a need which can be identified by those engaged in the process of education?
I am sure the Deputy would not like us to proceed without consultation. We want to see how we will do.
The Minister accepts the need is clearly identified?
That is right.
12.
asked the Minister for Education if she will give full details of the proposed development between the Department of Education and the Health Education Bureau for the purpose of health-sex education courses; and if she will elaborate further on the proposal concerning this aspect of education as outlined in paragraph 2.14 of the action plan in education.
Arrangements are in train for the secondment of a serving teacher to the Health Education Bureau on a full-time basis for the purpose of drawing up a programme of sex education suitable for our schools.
The interim Curriculum and Examinations Board have been asked in their terms of reference to have particular regard to the need to ensure that school curricula make adequate provision for the personal development of the individual student. In pursuance of that aim the board will be asked to encourage the development of health education in the school curriculum in conjunction with the Health Education Bureau.
As referred to in paragraph 2.14 of the Programme for Action in Education 1984-1987, there is an amount of work under way in the schools in the general area of health-sex education. The purpose of the developments proposed will be to build on the experience gained and to make a co-ordinated and comprehensive programme available for all schools.
Would the Minister clarify if it is one person being seconded to initiate or to compile? Is it one serving teacher?
That particular programme is just one of very many programmes.
When is it expected the compilation of this particular facet of the report will be ready? What does the Minister expect the course to contain? Will the course be relevant and applicable to schools throughout the country? What about the finance for the implementation of this course, because within an allocation of teachers, space and time and finance will have to be provided for the employment of one such person? Could I have further elaboration on that?
I can assure the Deputy the request for the secondment of the person in question has already been made and the authority in question will be applying to my Department and my Department will deal with the matter very expeditiously. That will be in the very short term. I do not know how long the course will take to design. I think that is a matter for the person doing the work. I cannot answer that question but all the facilities and all the finance available to implement the course will be made available. As the Deputy knows, there are a great many other very good developments and, as the Deputy also knows, in convent schools in particular a great deal of good work is being done so, with all these advances going on, we would hope to achieve a situation where every school will have a first class programme.
Does the Minister's budget for 1984 allow for an expansion of these courses, the provision of trained personnel and visiting lecturers? Will schools be allowed to employ these people from September next?
I can assure the Deputy my budget for 1984 covers all needs in this area.