(Dún Laoghaire): By agreement, the proceedings on item No. 19 will be concluded at 8.30 p.m.
Private Members' Business. - Rural Home Economics Colleges: Motion (Resumed).
The following motion was moved by Deputy Noonan(Limerick West) on Tuesday, 15 May 1984:
"That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to provide the funds necessary to ensure the continuing operation of the five rural home economics colleges."
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute:—
"endorses the policy of the Government that in the allocation of State support to agriculture, priority in the provision for agricultural education and training should be given to activities which contribute directly to increasing agricultural production."
—(Minister for Agriculture)
The first speaker will be Deputy H. Byrne from 7 p.m. to 7.10 p.m.; the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Deputy Hegarty, from 7.10 to 7.40 p.m.; Deputy Michael Kitt from 7.40 to 7.50 p.m.; Deputy J. Leonard from 7.50 to 8 p.m.; Deputy J. Walsh from 8 p.m. to 8.5 p.m.; Deputy Calleary from 8.5 to 8.10 p.m.; Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Deputy Connaughton, from 8.10 to 8.15 p.m. and Deputy O'Rourke from 8.15 to 8.30 p.m.
When I moved the Adjournment last night, I had been speaking about the courses available to girls attending rural home economics colleges. I was proving the point that the courses are just as relevant today as they were earlier. The Minister for Agriculture said because the colleges had been in operation since the 1900s the courses were outdated. I have proved quite clearly that the courses on dairying and on farm accounts are still very relevant and very important in farming. There is also a course in poultry-keeping which includes incubation, rearing, management, costing of layers, broilers, turkeys, ducks and geese, including nutrition and diseases. The aim of that course is to put the student in a position to set up and manage a poultry enterprise.
There is also a course on horticulture available, which covers cultivation, sowing and management of vegetables and fruit and propagation of shrubs and house plants. The aim of that course is to make these students capable of cultivating a plot suitable for family needs and of managing a nursery unit. This brief which I have before me has been prepared by the people in the rural home economics colleges, those on the ground who know what they are talking about. Having given the House the details of the two courses, I wish to quote from the Irish Independent, Wednesday, 16 May 1984, page 9 under the heading “£200m imports of food.”:
The £750m annual import bill could be slashed by nearly one quarter if a strategy was drawn up to increase production of potatoes, processed vegetables, cereals, eggs...
It goes on to say:
...the Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Austin Deasy, urged a greater specialisation in the areas where we have a competitive advantage.
It further states:
If grown and processed at home, potatoes and frozen chips could save us £22 million.
There was substitution potential of nearly £19 million in processed vegetables, while the poultry sector could cut more than £11 million off our egg imports.
The courses in the colleges in Ramsgrange, Ardagh, Claremorris, Portumna and Dunmanway are doing exactly what the Minister for Agriculture is suggesting should be done. These colleges are in operation and the Minister has the expertise available there to teach these young people the management of poultry and horticultural production. Is he so hypocritical as to suggest, on the one hand, that we need to do this and on the other, to close the colleges? I wonder how much he knows about the whole business, or was this decision taken by the Departmental officials without informing him of the exact situation? What has appeared in today's paper is a complete contradiction of what he proposed to do. I cannot understand this and I am sure that our farmers cannot, either. After tonight, I am sure that the people of Ireland will not understand. Are we serious about——
The Deputy has one minute left.
——protecting our industry? Are we serious about imports? I think that we are not. My time is very curtailed. In contradiction to what the Minister said yesterday evening, 60 per cent of girls who attended the RHE colleges returned to farms. This is as the result of a survey carried out over 15 years — from 1965 to 1981, not a survey of a few months as the Minister carried out trying to fool the people. He will not fool the Members on this side of the House, or the people involved. The remaining 40 per cent of girls are now in gainful employment. Is there any educational institution here, in Europe, or any part of the world which can boast of 100 per cent success as the RHE colleges can?
We have had many deputations to the Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty. It appears that the Minister for Agriculture has refused to meet us. Our last deputation was on 1 February. The Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty, understands the situation on the ground very well because he is a farmer, and a good one. I believe that he has had no hand, act or part in this disgraceful decision. I ask him tonight to give us some hope, to get the finance from somewhere — whether from the YEA or elsewhere — but for goodness sake to protect something which is worthwhile. I know that the lime subsidy and the AI subsidy have been done away with by the Minister so there remains about £7 million which will not be used, but which was provided for agriculture.
I must call on the Minister of State.
I know the Minister understands my feelings and those of the people concerned. In the interests of Ireland, I ask him to do something about it.
The Deputy is making it very hard for me this evening to refuse. I thank him for his kind remarks.
I hope the Minister will not refuse.
I would like to direct the attention of the House to the fundamental point stressed by the Minister last night in his amending motion, that is, that in the allocation of State support for agriculture in these times of extreme pressure on public funds it must be an essential feature of Government policy to give priority in the provision made for agricultural education and training to the activities which contribute directly to increasing agricultural production.
Last night we had Deputy Reynolds in the House making a very good case for balancing our books. We can compete in Europe only on the basis that we are competing in a level field. It is probably contributing to some of the unpopularity of the Government that we have taken some very tough decisions to ensure that our balance of payments is corrected. As Deputy Byrne in particular knows, the farming community with lower inflation and with lower interest rates will be able to compete. In the overall scene we must act responsibly towards the economy because we are up against the problem of paying our way in the world.
We have got to increase our earnings from exports, among which agriculture is a key factor. The natural economic climate must be right. Nobody connected with farming needs me to tell him that a top priority must be to reduce the very high level of inflation which has been ravaging the agricultural sector over the past five years. If we were to take one single factor over the last few years I would put even the recession below the inflation factor. While there was a European recession, even worse than the recession was the fact that we allowed our inflation to go out of control and our farmers became uncompetitive. Farmers know that the price of their products has been eroded by the very rapid price increases they have had to pay for their production imputs and indeed for the consumer goods on which they spend their net family income.
We are talking about filling the supermarkets now. It must be the aim of everybody on both sides of the House that we fill our supermarkets with Irish food. The first priority is that of education. The Government are not losing sight of that fact because, as the Deputy knows as well as I do, we have quite a lot of students in our agricultural colleges. We have an agricultural college in Ballyhaise. We have one in Clonakilty and we have the one which the Deputy knows best, the huge one in Kildalton. We have Mellowes College, Athenry, County Galway; Gurteen, Ballingarry, County Tipperary; Mountbellew, County Galway; Multyfarnham, County Westmeath; Pallaskenry, County Limerick; the Salesian College, Warrenstown, County Meath; Rockwell College, Cashel, County Tipperary; and Saint Patrick's, County Monaghan. We have 50 places in Ballinafad. As well as that there is great interest shown by the vocational education scene in agricultural education. Perhaps this is where we started out originally on the wrong foot. In my grandmother's time they had agricultural education as a subject in the national schools. They were taught how to grow things and to feed a household from the produce of a very small farm. They were taught how to make cheese. In my grandmother's case it proved to be a very valuable export market to French fishermen coming into Ballycotton. We were actually exporting cheese from small farms as far back as 150 years ago. We are not depending on four or five boarding schools for agricultural education.
We have got to embrace the vast young population who are going into agriculture if we are to be serious about agricultural education. We are talking about thousands of people each year. We have to try to cope with educating them. That is the problem facing this or any administration. If we are serious about filling our supermarkets with Irish food we will have to devote a lot more of the time of this House to looking at matters such as cheesemaking. I do not believe it should be the prerogative of just a few schools. I believe there is a large and expanding market. It is not necessarily one for the commercial co-operatives but one in which a number of young people, those with horticultural training, could partake. I suggest that this be done in a local VEC school or attached to our co-operatives and that that type of training would be provided. If a few young people got together, got the milk from the co-operatives, made the cheese and then sold it back to the co-operatives, who would do the marketing, that would be the proper way to do it.
The whole area of horticultural production seems to be at fault in relation to imports. There is no point in talking about one or two places. It is a large market which has to be filled and we have to involve a lot of people. The whole technology of plastic tunnels and horticultural crops will have to be learned by people going to classes at night and getting the ACOT people involved in a parish by parish basis. If we are to have young people involved seriously in horticultural crops I believe we will be talking about the second son at home. Land leasing certainly comes into this. I saw in Denmark a few years ago where in the teeth of a recession a few young people leased about ten acres of land. The only knowledge they had was from growing up on farms. The technology for growing the most sophisticated crops was given to them by local advisers. They were on the way to making their first £1 million out of ten acres of plastic tunnels heated by round bales of straw and biomass. That is the sort of thing we should be doing a lot more of. The restructured ACOT are now doing a good job. The Agricultural Institute are leading the way. The information is readily available.
In my short time in the Department I have noticed a growing awareness by shop owners, both the supermarket owners and the owners of small shops, of the importance of promoting Irish foods. Perhaps the housewife is responsible for this but in any event shop owners are showing a great sympathy and understanding with regard to the promotion of Irish commodities.
I agree with speakers on the other side of the House who have pointed out we have a major task facing us, but I do not think that the five colleges mentioned by Members opposite are the solution. Education is the answer and this has to start in the national schools. I have spoken on the matter to people in the VEC and I know they have many courses relating to tillage and to the care and servicing of machinery. The regional technical colleges are also interested in agricultural education. In the past perhaps we were inclined to look to areas other than agriculture for jobs, and that was only natural because the scope for work was quite considerable. In the past leaving certificate students had a wide range of jobs they could do but that situation does not exist now. Many young people are now finding their way back to the farm. In my view many jobs could be created in horticulture. Training is needed and it can be provided by way of part-time courses or the 100-hour courses being carried out at the moment.
In the face of declining real prices over a long period it is quite unrealistic to expect farmers to expand output. Therefore, the reduction of inflation is one critical element in the policy to raise farm output. Policies against inflation allow no easy options. Success can be achieved only by pursuing difficult and unpopular remedies. It must involve reducing the level of Government borrowing and, in turn, this must call for decisions on the allocation of Exchequer resources to agriculture, decisions which, as in the present case, may be unwelcome and unpalatable. In times of stringency the only defence for not doing something is that the money is not available or that it has to be spent elsewhere.
A further priority must be that of improving the economic efficiency of our agricultural production. The contribution of agriculture not only to the national well-being but to farm family incomes is determined to a major extent by the level of efficiency achieved at family farm level. A significant improvement in farm efficiency requires, apart from the farmer's own contribution, that the advisory and educational resources of ACOT be specifically directed towards securing a substantial improvement in efficiency and output at farm level. That is a point I should like to stress. Up to now the people in ACOT put emphasis on dairying. In fact, every bank manager more or less told farmers that if they wanted to succeed they should go into more milk production. Now we know we are approaching the upper limits and a person who wishes to expand will have to consider other areas of agriculture. However, I admit that grain and cereal growing would have limited appeal because the margin of profit would be quite slim.
In future the general thrust of ACOT advice will be to train farmers in other areas of horticultural production. There is no magic formula needed for that and a specific educational programme is not needed. I should imagine that the constituency of Deputy Kitt is basically grassland but even in such an area people can adapt to new situations. Irish farmers could never be accused of not producing commodities; in fact, our fault could be that we over-produced in certain areas.
A great challenge is facing tillage farmers. A wide range of crops can be grown with substantial profit. I have no worries about the farmers if they get the lead and the necessary co-operation from ACOT. Irish farmers will be able to compete with other European farmers if they are given the same conditions. If they can get money at the same rate as their competitors they need not fear any competition. The training and education being provided by ACOT advisers is more than adequate to help our farmers.
In my area there is intensive horticultural production and also a processing industry. People there have adapted very quickly to the new technologies. Problems arise but the ACOT people are able to cope with them. There are many other people employed in the agri-business: there are those involved with seeds and sprays and the universities in Cork, Galway and Dublin are doing valuable work in training people who, in turn, train ACOT advisers. There is an amount of experimental work and technology which is readily available to farmers and which is being availed of.
What has the Minister for the housewife?
The Irish housewife, like those everywhere else, is a well educated young woman who, in the words of Cardinal Newman, will have a broad spectrum education and will be well able to cope with the problems. Mind you, even when such young women leave areas like Grafton Street to go out on to farms they do immensely well as farmer's wives and very readily adapt to the farming scene. The Deputy must know that also from his experience.
When ACOT are engaged in the job of using the funds made available to them, for the reasons I have outlined, it is vital that they concentrate on areas of advice in education which will have the greatest impact in raising farm production and in increasing the efficiency and skills of the people who will come into that industry. On that basis there can be little room for argument that the process to be followed must be to maximise the degree of ACOT support for our educational services, geared specifically to agricultural and horticultural production. There has been an accelerated drive in this direction on the part of ACOT.
As was mentioned by the Minister himself last evening, the launching of the certificate in farming in the past two years has constituted a major breakthrough. Over 1,000 young people are already participating in a three-year course which combines formal training at an agricultural college or a local farm training centre with supervised working experience on a well-run farm. At the same time there has been a steady expansion in the numbers attending the colleges. At present there are over 900 students in agricultural colleges and 200 in horticulture. The emphasis in the future should be on embracing a lot more people, substantial numbers of them, which would obviously have to come about by way of part-time courses and courses conducted by ACOT, which courses should be related to a particular area.
One thing that has emerged from the Inter-Departmental Report is that there is tremendous scope for import substitution, about which Deputy H. Byrne spoke last evening. For example, there is tremendous scope for import substitution with regard to food products. Perhaps we are somewhat over-sensitive, when we talk about buying Irish, that in some way or other we will upset our exports scene. The British are not at all apologetic about asking their people to buy English. They are running a very successful "Food from Britain" campaign at present, the sort of campaign in which we should be engaging. Certainly the goodwill exists on the part of our housewives. Hopefully there will be introduced in this House within a matter of weeks legislation governing the National Potato Co-operative. With the establishment of this co-operative there will be approximately 12 centres around the country working in conjunction with the IAWS when, for the first time, we shall have our potatoes presented in a manner acceptable to the consumer in line with the methods used by our EEC competitors. In other words, they will be produced and prepared for the shops similar to Dutch or any other European imports. Being of a better quality, there is no reason why we should not compete.
The skills involved in dealing with these and other horticultural crops will be acquired through the advice of the ACOT people, through more involvement in agricultural education in our VECs where I personally should like to see more emphasis being placed on agriculture. If we are to get the message across to a large number of people fairly quickly then it must be done by way of specialised day courses because, if one is talking about filling a gap of, say, £20 million, £100 million or £200 million in our imports scene then we must involve an awful lot of people. There is not much point in talking about a select few, in five venues, achieving anything dramatic.
Half a loaf is better than no bread.
Perhaps it is. If we are serious about tackling this problem of educating people for agriculture, then the way to do so is through our advisory services, through their involvement in the ordinary day schools curriculum, perhaps with a little more support from the IDA, although we are receiving good support from them at present. There should be a lot more emphasis placed on career guidance in guiding people into the areas of agriculture.
But the guidance counsellors are being cut back.
I am not now speaking about cutbacks or otherwise, I am talking about the ones there already. I should like to see them giving the sort of advice I am suggesting, that they would advise more people to move into areas of agriculture where there is a future and where jobs are to be found. With a lot of goodwill on the part of everybody many jobs can be created. If one examines how our competitors have tackled the unemployment scene one will see that in countries as poor as Denmark the experiment I suggested even in dairying has been carried out by the Danes themselves. What started out as an experiment in a kitchen has now grown into a widespread industry. If a country such as Denmark — with the type of summer weather they get, which is little or none and with their short daylight hours — can export horticultural produce to Germany, then there is something wrong with us; we should be doing the same. That is where the thrust of my advice would go, to get more and more young people involved in entrepreneurial exercises, providing jobs, initially filling our supermarkets with our produce, eventually getting into the exports scene, taking on the Dutch, Germans and others at their own game. I might give the House one small example of what I mean, that is in the case of what are called Frenchfried chips, where the United Kingdom market at present is wide open to export into this market place. It must be remembered that there is no miracle about growing potatoes or making chips. The facts are that we import up to £15 million worth rather than engage in their export. There is no good reason we should not be doing so.
I have a lot of sympathy with the movers of this motion——
I would say so.
——but the decision of the Government has been taken in the light of the constraints on our Exchequer, spelled out by the Minister last evening. As he indicated himself last evening I sincerely hope he will examine all of the possibilities. I personally will interest myself in pursuing those possibilities. I know that in Deputy J. Walsh's constituency the people themselves are meeting with a high degree of success in a local effort, about which I will allow him the privilege of telling us.
If we all put our heads together on this there is an awful lot that can be done. That is what I would like the House to do, that after this debate is over we would sit down and ascertain whether, with the help of the Youth Employment Agency, the Department of Labour and anybody else we can find, we can find a use for these colleges, in a much more expanded role, when a great number of day pupils could be accommodated.
First of all, I cannot agree to the amendment moved here last night by the Minister. If the Minister says that priority in agricultural spending should be given to activities which contribute directly to increasing agricultural production, how can he then exclude colleges which have done such great work down through the years? Speakers on the Government side are not recognising the contribution these colleges have made to the agricultural industry.
The second point is that the Government cannot expect we will have immediately increased agricultural production from these colleges but in the long term they are the colleges which will form the basis for increased agricultural production in the years ahead. My main point is that they are the only suitable establishments in which to train girls in farm home management. Surely the Minister and his colleagues will agree that farm management is all about partnership, and the existence of these colleges recognises the important role of the housewife in the business of running the farm and the home.
The closure of these colleges will be discrimination against rural Ireland and particularly against the women in rural Ireland. Excellent training has been given in these colleges and those who attended the courses have certainly benefited from them. We have had nothing at all from the female Minister for Education concerning the lack of funds for these colleges. Does she think this type of course is available at second level? The answer is "No". Neither can the Minister for Agriculture say these courses are available in agricultural colleges. The Minister said tonight that we have fine agricultural colleges and I agree totally with him but I would remind him that he is talking about a different type of course. We have a Minister for Women's Affairs who has been very vocal about discrimination against women. Has she, I wonder, any views on this?
In my constituency students have attended Portumna college and from north Galway they have attended Claremorris. Both these colleges have courses organised by the Sisters of Mercy and I would like to put on record now our appreciation of all that these Sisters have done over the years. Religious are involved in the running of these colleges and there is a demand for this type of course. They are similar to the courses in the home economics colleges and we all know how many applications there have been over the years for places in Sion Hill and in Sligo. A question was tabled by Deputy Jim Tunney last week concerning additional accommodation in Sion Hill and it was answered as follows by the Minister for Education, Mrs. Hussey:
Discussions have taken place with the authorities of St. Catherine's college of home economics in regard to their application for additional accommodation. The matter is now under examination and a decision will be expedited as soon as possible.
That shows there is a demand for this course. I would stress also that the residential nature of the colleges is very important. Accommodation is not available in other institutions. I am informed the sum of £57,000 is the allocation for Portumna college this year. When you take the wages and salaries out of that, which amount to some £47,000, you are talking about £7,000 for capitation and equipment. Surely that is a very small amount to ensure this particular college continues in operation. I put that to my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Connaughton. It is a very small amount and when one looks at the figures for other colleges we are talking of a very meagre amount indeed out of a total agricultural budget. What will become of the staff employed in these colleges? Where will they find alternative employment? The only alternative I can see is that they might possibly be involved in night classes. Otherwise they will be redundant.
I emphasise these colleges have given good ground-working plans in home management. They have assured future employment in agriculture despite what the Minister said last night. They have given courses in dairying, poultry, cheese production and so on. With regard to the poultry industry the Minister is probably aware that by completing a course in one of these colleges a girl can go on to become a poultry technician. Every year from 12 to 15 girls do that poultry technicians' course in Athenry and go on to work in the commercial poultry units. If the Minister has any doubt about the benefit provided by these colleges — judging by what he said last night he does not seem to have much regard for these colleges and what they have done — I would ask him to talk to the teachers who have been involved in these schools or, better still, talk to the past pupils who have gone to these schools and who will tell him very clearly that they have got tremendous benefit from these colleges. They have been able to get employment in the agricultural industry or on the farm working in partnership with the husband in running the farm and the home.
Last night we had the Minister giving a quotation from the Fianna Fáil document "The Way Forward". He gave two quotations in which there was not one mention of these colleges. He just used the two quotations to pad out his speech when he realised he could not hopefully blame Fianna Fáil for all our problems. He also said the courses were out of date. They are certainly very relevant. Farm accounting and budgeting are very relevant. The Minister mentioned food imports. With food imports so high it is important we should continue these colleges in operation. The Minister wants practical examples of where to save money. May I say to him that we have provided something like £11.7 million in the capital programme for AI and lime subsidies. What will become of that money if the schemes are not restored? We have reduced the Land Commission allocation by a quarter this year. How will those savings be used? Surely they could contribute towards the continuation of these colleges. If the Government allow these colleges to close in a few years' time we will be talking about opening these colleges because they are so important.
Finally, I would appeal to Deputy Connaughton, the Minister of State, to use his influence with his Minister and the Government to get the money — it is not a large sum — to keep these colleges in operation and continue those very useful courses in management of the farm and of the home.
I support this motion on which my colleagues have spoken so widely and I call on the Government to provide the funds necessary to continue the operation of the five rural home economics colleges. It is a basic structure for the development of farm home advisers, poultry production, budgeting, farm records, cheese making, etc. The Government say in their amendment that priority in the provision for agricultural education and training should be given to activities which contribute directly to increasing agricultural production. This is an area in which you would be increasing agricultural production and would give the basic ideas and values of producing, budgeting and advising.
The monitoring committee on food imports put the emphasis on many areas, especially poultry production. The regrettable feature of the recession is that it is used as an excuse for curtailing or withdrawing funds from the five rural home economics colleges. The Department did not think about the damage they were doing and did not closely examine what those colleges were providing for students. At present our greatest problem in relation to the agricultural industry is that there is no well thought out plan. If a close study had been made of the cost-benefit analysis they might have had second thoughts.
The Minister said last night that it was a matter of funding. If you are involved with a health board or a local authority the priority seems to be the non-availability of funds. There are so few areas where you can reduce spending and everything is liable to be axed.
The Minister said that future financing might come from the Youth Employment Agency or the EEC. He was depending on another Minister and various agencies and, in the heel of the hunt, on money from the EEC. We always seem to be wondering where these funds will come from and that is not the proper basis for developing any structure, especially a sound agricultural policy. We would be glad to see funding coming from any area to ensure the continuation of those colleges but the Minister should have consulted us. If he had said that he had been in consultation with the Minister for Labour or negotiating with the EEC for funds it would have been far more desirable than saying in a wooly way that he hoped to get the money to keep the colleges going but that it was not his responsibility.
The Minister also mentioned the benefits which would accrue from buying Irish products and he appealed to the food industry to reappraise their attitude towards the domestic market. I have been pursuing this matter for the last ten years. This area is crying out for development although of course it is hard to change the situation overnight when you are importing goods to the value of £753 million. If we could even reduce that figure by 5 per cent or 10 per cent a year for a few years it would ensure thousands of additional jobs.
Teachers are being made redundant in these colleges although there is work for them. The same applies in the health board in my area because a senior civil servant pushes a Minister to cut back on spending. It is a dangerous policy to follow. When I first learned that these colleges were to close I raised the question of the poultry industry. The report to which I referred said that 25 per cent of our eggs are imported which amounts to a sum of £11.4 million. The area I come from is the best developed as far as poultry and egg production are concerned but we could develop it much further and additional jobs could be provided. The report also mentioned that we imported meat to the value of £40.6 million and £16.3 million could have been substituted by home products. Ministers are continually telling us that representatives from various Departments are closely examining these matters but they should be concluded as a matter of extreme urgency.
I left a meeting which I was having with the horticultural committee of the IFA and they say it will need drastic measures to compete with imported products. The time has come for the kid gloves to be taken off because, if money is being provided by way of grant aid, we will have to learn to produce potatoes, vegetables or any other product to the standard of the imported goods. The price will have to be right also. I spent many years attached to a co-operative which was involved in the potato business, seed packaging and exportation. It is up to the Department to ensure that every assistance is given to producers. In 1982 we imported frozen chips to the value of £11.9 million and £18.6 million worth of processed vegetables. Much of that could have been produced at home and many jobs could have been provided if we had made the effort. Think of the pride which people would have to see Irish produce in our supermarkets.
I support the motion to continue funding the rural home economics colleges and I do not accept the argument that there is no money. That is nonsense. Last week I asked here how much money was spent on renting Government offices last year. A sum of £17 million was spent in this area and it was established recently by the Committee of Public Accounts that many of those offices are unoccupied. Surely we could pick up £500,000 in that area alone, as one example.
For industrial training last year up to £100 million was spent, and £18 million of that was given to consultancy firms, accountancy and legal firms. I wonder what benefit that was to the whole industrial scene where we have 250,000 people unemployed. The Youth Employment Agency handed back £11 million last year because they did not know what to do with it.
What about the young people going back to farming? I do not accept the Minister's speech last night which, I suspect, was written for him by some important person in the Department of Finance who have had the whip hand over agriculture for the past couple of years. It is a pity that the good ideas of the two Ministers were not allowed to be implemented because of the dominance of the Department of Finance over agriculture. I do not accept that the young girls attending these colleges do not go back to farming. Perhaps they do not go back immediately, but many of them marry farmers and end up in farming. The training they get in these colleges is of tremendous benefit to them.
The discrimination against women in farming is absolutely outrageous. In all other areas of activity women are getting progressively better treatment and conditions. Unfortunately, the farmer's wife does not get fair treatment. A PAYE woman worker gets 15 weeks paid maternity leave, whereas, for the poor farmer's wife, were it not for the grandmother or the mother or the mother-in-law looking after the place while she is away, the situation would be awful when she returned to the farm.
Here we have another example of discrimination against women in agriculture. I appeal to the Ministers involved to give women going into farming the same opportunities as women going into other occupations. As everybody knows, other occupations are drying up. More and more of these girls will be staying on the farm, or going back to the farm. This very meagre and small amount of money could help these courses to be continued.
In Dunmanway in my constituency the principal has to go around cap in hand trying to collect a few pounds to keep the college going. The people in the area and the farmers' daughters want the college to stay in business. They are very annoyed that the Minister for Agriculture would not even meet a deputation from the college to look into the matter. He told us last night he was looking at the Youth Employment Agency and AnCO to see if they could get a few bob from them. The Minister's office has already communicated with the college and told them there are no funds and they cannot help them. They were told they would have to close down sooner or later.
These colleges are doing an excellent job. Their certificates are recognised and farmers' daughters who inherit the farm can get stamp duty exemption. If the son inherits the farm he does not have to pay stamp duty at 3 per cent. If a daughter inherits the farm because these courses are not available she will have to pay 3 per cent stamp duty. The colleges are closing down because the Minister says there is no money. There is not enough commitment on the part of the Ministers involved. There is no use in coming in here and saying they cannot find the money. Enough money is being squandered every week in many areas to keep these colleges going for the next ten years.
Deputy Calleary has five minutes.
In five minutes it is almost impossible for me to say what I would like to say. The decision to close these colleges makes a mockery of the Coalition Government's claim that they have concern for young people. That decision shows the Government in their true light. It shows that the right wing, monetaristic policies of the Government put the young people a poor second to right wing extremism and a book balancing exercise.
I should like to speak briefly about Claremorris. I am not sure whether the Minister was talking about Claremorris as one of the colleges from which they got some information. I had the privilege of being at a graduation ceremony in Claremorris some years ago. In the college they have a farm. The pupils have the full range of farming activities and not only the activities which the Minister seemed to subscribe to in his speech. There appears to me to be a contradiction in that speech. He said we had to increase our earnings from exports among which agriculture is a key factor. In another paragraph he said that in the face of declining real prices over a long period it is quite unrealistic to expect farmers to expand output. I do not know how we can increase our earnings if we cannot expand output.
If the Government continue with the policies they are adopting now, they will throw an average of 40 pupils in Claremorris onto the scrap heap. In the disadvantaged areas served by this college, Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal and Mayo, there is no other place where young girls can get education in farming which would help them to play a part in farming activities in the west.
One wonders how much it will cost to close down these operations. One wonders what will happen to the buildings and the people in Claremorris who will be out of work. One wonders where these people will get work. They have special skills which cannot be used readily in other employments. This decision is a disgrace. It is one of the worst decisions taken by the Government. Let me emphasise that.
There is a rumour in the colleges that this Government did not take this decision, that it was big bad Fianna Fáil. Two budgets later they have the cheek and audacity to say Fianna Fáil were closing the colleges. It is easy to know why they are far behind in the polls if they expect people to be fooled by that codology. They had the opportunity. They could have put the £6 million they took from the decentralisation programme into the colleges. That £6 million was in the Estimates for the 1982 budget. They are not worried about the colleges.
I accept that the two men opposite have the interest of agriculture at heart, but they were not able to break down the resistance of the Department of Finance. The Department decided that there would be very little protest from the colleges. They knew if they took the money from some place else there would be protests. That is the main reason for the decision to close the colleges. I ask the Ministers to go back to the Department of Finance and get the miserly amount of money which would keep these colleges open and the young girls and their teachers in them.
In the short time available to me, five minutes, I cannot express all the views I have on this subject. I share the general opinion about the history of RHE colleges and their commitment down the years. I should like to refer specifically to some of the comments made tonight. I must take up Deputy Walsh on his allegation of discrimination. It is well known that never before in the history of rural Ireland have so many women from farms attended ACOT training courses throughout the country.
They were farm training courses. What about the home training course?
I have the figures to back up my statement. In the last 18 months I have had the pleasure of presenting many certificates to women who successfully concluded those courses.
The Minister of State is great.
I was delighted to see so many farmers' wives and girl friends of farmers attending the 80 to 100 hour EEC courses.
The Minister of State will have 260 certificates less to present next year.
We will have as many again. I should like to tell the Deputy that there are many women involved in in-service training courses.
What about the colleges? The Minister of State should not go on with this rubbish. He is not sticking to the subject matter under discussion.
Deputy Byrne has had his slice of the cake.
On a point of order, I should like to know how the contribution of the Minister of State relates to the RHE colleges?
The Deputy should resume his seat.
I must have said something that got under Deputy Byrne's skin in referring to agricultural education for the women and menfolk of Ireland.
The Minister of State did not say anything that got under my skin.
We have never had so many people involved in those intensive courses throughout the country.
We are talking about rural home economics colleges.
Deputy Byrne should kindly keep his tongue.
It is not possible for the Deputy to do that when he is being hurt. There is a new trend sweeping across Europe in the whole area of rural enterprise projects. At a time when our unemployment figures are so high we should take a new look at such matters and that could include the RHE colleges. It is possible that there is a place for them.
If that is the case will the Minister of State tell us why the Government are closing them?
We want to ensure that we get adequate return for every pound spent on agriculture. In case word got out as a result of Deputy Walsh's contribution that the colleges representatives were not met by any Minister, I should like to state that I had the pleasure on no fewer than three occasions to speak to their representatives either jointly or on a one-to-one basis.
The Minister for Agriculture refused to meet them.
I am not aware of that.
(Limerick West): They must not have impressed the Minister.
We have a problem in regard to unemployment and I believe that within a few years enterprises such as cheese-making will commence.
That course was covered in the RHE colleges.
It appears that this is something the Deputy opposite does not wish to hear. As far as this matter is concerned the Deputy is ten years behind the times. I believe that because of the new trend that is taking place we should be able to create jobs for the second son or second daughter on the farm.
It is an insult to the colleges to say that they are ten years behind the times.
Through the Youth Employment Agency, and others, a system could be worked out where the greater commitment of those in the RHE colleges will be put to full use. There should not be any doubt about it but that times change.
(Limerick West): And Governments will change.
Derelict buildings, redundant teachers.
The curriculum will also change. Irrespective of what the Deputies opposite may say, the 1982 Estimates show clearly that Fianna Fáil intended phasing out the RHE colleges.
(Limerick West): Last night we asked the Minister for Agriculture to prove that statement but he could not do so.
I am not in the slightest bit interested in who said they would or would not close the colleges. I am interested in keeping them open either as they are or in a different form. I was glad to hear the winds of change sweeping through the Chamber last night and tonight. I support Deputy Noonan's motion in which he calls on the Government to procure the funding to enable the five rural home economics colleges to remain open. One of those colleges, Ardagh, is in my constituency. The other colleges are situated in Claremorris, Dunmanway, Portumna and Ramsgrange. The capacity of the colleges is 260 girls for full-time residential education. It may be that the colleges when established many years ago had a very important curriculum to fulfil. I maintain they have fulfilled that and over the years have sent out into the world many young women who have fulfilled their role admirably. I take the point put forward by Minister Deasy last night, and hinted at by Ministers of State Connaughton and Hegarty, that perhaps there was another source of funding that the colleges could look to to enable them remain viable.
Before the Department of Agriculture bow out and renege on its long-term responsibility to these colleges it should make adequate provision for the future and continuing funding of them. Last night the Minister said that in view of the possibility of the colleges having a role to play in the context of general youth employment and training programmes within the province of the Youth Employment Agency his Department had been in touch with those agencies and facilitated the college management association to enter into negotiations with them in the matter. He said he understood that a decision by the Youth Employment Agency was currently awaited on the submission made to them by the association on the use of the colleges as rural enterprise centres. I am privileged to have received a copy of the proposal from the association to the Youth Employment Agency in which they set out honestly and fairly the history of the colleges to date and where they see they can change to accommodate the objectives and plans of the Youth Employment Agency.
I am glad to see Deputy Taylor-Quinn present, the sole female representative of the Coalition who say they are so committed to the feminist cause. The Coalition should give expression to their feminist principles and not just talk about them. It is easy to go on television and do a full programme on the importance of women joining golf clubs — I am all for women joining them and having full membership of them — and of the importance of having the correct types of forms so that women do not feel affronted when presented with a particular type of form; but that is not feminism, that is only old blather. It is not putting feminism into action.
If the Government close Ardagh, Claremorris, Dunmanway, Portumna and Ramsgrange 260 young women will be deprived of the opportunity to study farm and home management and financing arrangements for them.
On a point of order——
The Deputy should not cackle when another woman is cackling; it is too much altogether. Minister of State Hegarty told us that these subjects were being studied at second level schools. I accept that, but students are lucky if they have three class periods per week for that subject. There is a concentration of those subjects at the RHE colleges for five days each week.
Why not include the boys also.
It is very rude to interrupt when a woman is talking. Two hens cackling will not help the cause. Maybe one hen cackling at a time will. This contrasts directly with 1,000 places available for boys who wish to enter the farming scene. However, to stand up here and say who is to do it, who is not going to do it or who did or did not do it is like Agatha Christie in reverse. The positive way to do it is to put forward proposals on how these rural colleges can remain open. I propose positively here tonight that these five rural colleges become rural employment and enterprise centres. I address this proposal particularly to the Minister of State, Deputy Connaughton. Remember that these colleges are all in rural areas serving a rural hinterland where there are not the manpower agencies which are available in large urban centres. These colleges can play such a role in the future.
The five colleges coming together have made proposals to the Youth Employment Agency as to their role in the future format of Youth Employment Agency funding. The main purpose of their submission is to demonstrate that the colleges have developed a role largely different from what was intended originally. That is forward looking and positive. They say also that their role is to educate responsible citizens who will give leadership in community organisations.
The Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty, spoke very warmly and eloquently on his own subjects of vegetable and potato growing and about the need for small community groups to come together and small enterprises to be allowed to grow and flower. That is the way business and industry will develop in future. The days of the Japanese and the Americans coming here and waving a wand and creating 1,000 jobs in the morning which fold up two years later are over. That is not the way of progress in industrial life. The way of progress is the cooperative movement, groups coming together, ideas flowering among people, enterprise, entrepreneurship, giving expression to ideas. These rural colleges have encouraged these over the years and women who have left them have gone, some to nursing, some to agriculture, some to catering and some marry and have very fulfilling roles as full-time partners on a family farm. On the subject of men behind women and women behind men I put forward that women play equal roles on a farm and in a partnership.
The five colleges in their submission state:
In responding to a changing environment the rural home economics colleges have become important institutions for creating employment, including self-employment, for young people in rural areas. The education they have given in their courses, whilst confined and restricted, is broad in that it enables the young person to look at opportunities in her life when she goes out.
I would like to tell a story which was told to me of a girl who did a course in Ardagh and in that year's course she was found to have an aptitude for the confectionery business, cake making and so on. When she went home she researched her area and travelled about a catchment of a certain number of miles. She researched what market there would be for wedding cakes, christening cakes, 21st birthday cakes and so on. She drew up proposals for the pricing and costing of her cakes. She prepared brochures, she went into every little village and town in the area, put her brochures on display and told the people there what she intended to do. That girl is fully employed now and two others are employed with her. Her skills were first perceived and then developed in Ardagh School of Home Economics. This is the type of education that school has given in the past and can continue to give.
They make the point that no rural agency is capable of doing the work that the colleges have been doing in relation to unemployment in rural Ireland, that there will be an adverse economic effect on the already economically weak community who service the colleges, probably giving rise to further unemployment, if the colleges are closed and that to close them would be a serious mistake. They are open to suggestions, but the main suggestion made is that the objective of the five rural colleges be restated to formalise their role in reducing unemployment. They wish to put themselves forward not alone as they have been heretofore, rural home economics colleges teaching in specialised areas of farm lore and knowledge; they wish to put themselves into the job finding, job training marketplace and to that end they have made a submission to the Youth Employment Agency. That agency, through lack of proper submissions costed and researched, were not able to use up their allocation of funding last year and had to send back to the Exchequer approximately £11 million. This proposal, with its objectives stated accurately, makes a very worthy case for examination by the Department of Labour.
(Interruptions.)
I have said to Deputy Taylor-Quinn that two women shouting at each other is bad form. The Ministers of State, Deputy Connaughton and Deputy Hegarty, are here tonight and have proved themselves open and perceptive to the ideas put forward by us on this side. I accept the goodwill they have expressed towards these colleges. Deputy Kelly is madly prompting Deputy Taylor-Quinn. I want to see that goodwill expressed forcibly and completely. I ask the Coalition partners to vote for our motion tonight. I know that is only a wish in the moon, but I might as well say it. They should take heed of our motion which says that the Government should provide the funding. I do not care which Department provide the funding. I do not care whether it comes from the Department dealing with women's affairs, the Department of Labour or the Department of Education. I am surprised that the Minister for Education is not here tonight to lend her ear and her goodwill, if not her voice, to the educative potential of these institutions. I do not care which Government agency decide to fund these five colleges.
I accept that there is a spirit of willingness within the Government to look afresh at the situation. Our spokesman, Deputy Noonan, with Deputy Kitt and Deputy Byrne, have put down the motion that the Government keep the colleges open. Who first had it in his head to close them I do not care, but I care that the colleges remain open. These five colleges of rural economics educate 260 girls and have full employment for 52 people. They are in Ardagh, which is in County Longford, in my constituency; in Claremorris, In Dunmanway, in Portumna and in Ramsgrange. I press the Government to consider deployment of Youth Employment Agency funding to answer directly the very admirable and realisable case put forward by the Association of Rural Home Economics Colleges to the Youth Employment Agency. I commend that to this Government. I ask the two Ministers of State and the Minister himself to come back here to this House and report on how this proposal is perceived.
The Deputy has 30 seconds.
The end is drawing near for the rural colleges. The doors will close at the end of May. I ask the Coalition Government to prove that they have a feminist soul and allow the doors of the rural colleges to remain open.
Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 58.
Tá
- Barnes, Monica.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Myra.
- Begley, Michael.
- Bell, Michael.
- Bermingham, Joe.
- Birmingham, George Martin.
- Boland, John.
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Carey, Donal.
- Collins, Edward.
- Conlon, John F.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Coogan, Fintan.
- Cooney, Patrick Mark.
- Cosgrave, Liam T.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Crotty, Kieran.
- Crowley, Frank.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Martin Austin.
- Desmond, Barry.
- Desmond, Eileen.
- Donnellan, John.
- Dowling, Dick.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Glenn, Alice.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Hegarty, Paddy.
- Hussey, Gemma.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kelly, John.
- Kenny, Enda.
- McCartin, Joe.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McLoughlin, Frank.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Molony, David.
- Naughten, Liam.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael.
- (Limerick East).
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Brien, Willie.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Leary, Michael.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Prendergast, Frank.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Ryan, John.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
- Skelly, Liam.
- Spring, Dick.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Níl
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Paudge.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Gallagher, Denis.
- Gallagher, Pat Cope.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leonard, Tom.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- McCarthy, Seán.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Morley, P.J.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Browne, John.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Byrne, Seán.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Conaghan, Hugh.
- Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Fahey, Francis.
- Nolan, M. J.
- Noonan, Michael J.
- (Limerick West).
- O'Dea, William.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Edmond.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Leary, John.
- Ormonde, Donal.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- Power, Paddy.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Walsh, Seán.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and McLoughlin; Níl, Deputies B. Ahern and V. Brady.
Question declared carried.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.