asked the Minister for the Environment if he agrees with the statement of the Galway County Manager that the 1984 road grant represents a reduction of £600,000 approximately on the 1983 road grant to Galway County Council; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Galway County Council Funding.
7.
In comparing figures for 1984 and 1983, it is necessary to have regard to the changes introduced this year in the system of notifying road grant allocations.
The system of road grants administered by the Department operates on the basis that the amounts of grants committed in respect of road works generally exceed the level of funds available for recoupment in any particular year. This is intended to take account of the fact that a substantial proportion of the notified commitments does not mature for payment within the year due to the practical difficulties in implementing schemes.
The system of road grants which operated before 1984 left open the possibility that demand for recoupment could outstrip the grant provision for the country as a whole in any particular year with the result that payments would have to be withheld at the end of the year.
The system of road grant allocations introduced this year is similar to the system which operated in 1983, with the exception that the grant allocated in 1984 and notified by letter to local authorities on 24 February 1984 will actually be paid this year if the conditions set out in that letter are fulfilled. Under the old system, this could not have been guaranteed.
In the case of Galway County Council, my Department notified the council in March 1983 of road grant commitments totalling £3.87 million. The carry-forward commitment at the start of 1983 was £1.196 million, resulting in total commitments in 1983 amounting to £5.066 million. The amount actually paid by the Department was £4.011 million.
On 24 February 1984, Galway County Council were notified that a grant of £4.191 million had been allocated to the local authority for roads in 1984. New commitments made amounted to £4.040 million while the carry-forward commitment at the start of 1984 was £1.055 million, which results in total commitments in 1984 amounting to £5.095 million.
It is open to the council to incur liabilities up to £5.095 million. Any claim in 1984 in excess of the 1984 allocation of £4.191 million will be met either by way of payment by the Department early in 1985 or possible savings in allocations to other local authorities which may arise later this year. It is not possible to indicate at this stage the total State grants likely to be available in 1985 in respect of roads.
In the case of Galway Corporation, the increase in the grants in 1984 relates to the new Corrib Bridge and approach roads.
I suppose we should be grateful to the Minister for putting so much information on the record but I am sure he will accept that the question relates to a specific matter of the statement of the Galway County Manager that the 1984 road grants represent a reduction of £600,000 on the 1983 grant. I wanted to establish and put on record whether the Minister accepts the statement made by the county manager as true, or if not if he can explain why he thinks it is not true.
We have an accounting procedure and I suppose we can make figures look one thing or another, but I will explain how we look at it and perhaps the Deputy will see our point of view. Galway County Council's new commitments for 1984 at £4.04 million are £170,000 or 4 per cent higher than in 1983. Their pre-1984 commitments of £1.055 million result in total commitments of £5.095 million in 1984. It is open to the council to incur liabilities, as I have said, up to £5.095 million in the current year. Their allocation of £4.191 million, which is the amount to be paid to the council in the current year, is £180,000 or 4 per cent higher than the grant payments of £4.011 million made to the council in 1983. The council's total commitments in 1983 amounted to £5.066 million. The 1983 grant commitment was £3.87 million. Their pre-1983 commitments were £1.196 million.
The county manager's statement to which the Deputy refers is a submission made by the council to the Minister of State during a meeting on 15 March 1984. In the submission it was stated that the amount available to the council for roads expenditure in 1984 is £663,000 less than the grant notified in 1983. This statement is based on the following: (1) 1983 road grant notified £3.87 million; (2) 1984 road grant allocation £4.191 million, less recouped expenditure at 31 December 1983 of £719,000 and expenditure in excess of grants notified for the individual schemes in 1983 of £265,000 totalling £0.984 million, which leaves £3.207 million. The difference between (1) and (2) is, as the county manager suggested, £0.663 million.
From the information submitted by Galway County Council in their monthly expenditure returns the following estimate breakdown of the above £0.984 million emerges. December 1983 expenditure was £353,000. Accounts related to 1983 which were brought to book in January and February 1984 were £250,000. Expenditure in excess of 1983 commitments on individual schemes was £265,000. The balances of grants withheld pending receipt of final documents relating to the schemes were £116,000.
While it is correct to say that the above expenditure represents a first charge on the 1984 road allocations, the council's submission does not mention that some of the elements comprising the £984,000 in 1983 will most likely be repeated in 1984. For example, expenditure in December does not fall due for recoupment until the following January. Likewise accounts being paid at the end of the year fall due for recoupment only as they are paid. It is likely that the balance will be withheld again pending submission of the final documents. There is always a carry-over from one year to the other. In actual terms there is an increased grant this year to Galway.
The Minister should not contradict himself. As I understand it now, in the middle of that long answer he has confirmed the statement made by the Galway County Manager that he was in effect being left £100,000 short in 1984 compared to 1983. Is the Minister aware that when the deputation from Galway County Council attended on the Minister of State, Deputy O'Brien, he told the Galway County Manager that the manager's figures were wrong and that if he came over to his Department in the afternoon he would explain where he was wrong and that in fact Galway were getting a very generous increase in their road grant? When the manager went to the Custom House in the afternoon he was able to prove his case and showed that he was being left short and that the Minister and his officials gave us wrong information when they met the deputation from Galway County Council.
Whatever that is about, it is not a question.
It shows how slipshod they are about their business over there in recent years.
I can see this being taken for the rest of the evening and a number of other Deputies would not be pleased.
They would be very pleased to get the full facts on the record from the Minister and pleased that he has confirmed that his Minister of State and his officials were wrong on that occasion. Is the Minister aware that the effect of this cutback is that approximately 100 men are to be made redundant in the road section of Galway County Council? How can he tally that with his Government's commitment to create employment?
These amounts are for national primary and secondary roads, so I do not accept what the Deputy says about redundancies. If he compares the amount of grant allocation for 1984 as against the amount of grant allocation for 1983 I am sure he will understand it.
I take it that the Minister accepts that there is a shortfall in the grant for 1984 compared with 1983. If there were not, I put it to the Minister, Galway County Council would not have to get an overdraft, as they had, of £0.5 million in order to survive. Would he not accept that he is contradicting himself when he talks about carry-over of funds when it is his Department who are not allowing Galway County Council to carry over expenditure from 1983 to 1984?
Hear, hear.
It is carry-over commitments that have been completed from one year into the next, which happens because certain roads are completed and certain bills are paid out of the following year's allocation against work done in the previous year. This happens every year in every local authority. It just so happens that perhaps a heavier amount is being carried over into 1984 than was carried over into 1983.
We should make some progress. It is in the interest of Galway Deputies that we should spend all our time at one question.
Is the Minister aware that the money paid to the various local authorities——
This is about Galway only.
I want to give the example. The money paid to the various local authorities in recent years is as follows: Galway, £117 per mile; Roscommon, £134 per mile; Mayo, £178 per mile and £198 per mile in respect of Clare and Donegal.
This does not arise. It has nothing to do with the question.
It proves that the allocation for Galway——
We are not in the business of proving or of arguing.
Is the Minister satisfied that the allocations to Galway County Council are very much down by comparison with those for other counties and is he aware that 100 county council workers in Galway are about to be made redundant by reason of the low level of finance made available from the Department?
The Chair would refer the Deputy to the question on the Order Paper.
I would need to know not only the figures quoted but also the figures for national primary and secondary roads which have been sent to my Department either for payment on demand or otherwise. Without knowing whether Galway County Council submitted plans that were not sanctioned in the Department, I could not vouch for the accuracy of those figures.
Will the Minister agree that Galway County Council are proposing to make 100 workers redundant? He seemed to imply that what I was saying was not correct.
That seems to be a separate question.
I said that I was not aware that the situation in regard to national primary and secondary roads was the reason for the proposal. There are other roads in Galway, too.
Is the Minister aware that 100 Galway County Council workers are facing redundancy because of the shortfall in the allocation from the Department for road works in the county in 1984?
I have said that the commitment in respect of national primary and secondary roads is dealt with on the basis of plans put forward and tenders accepted. I am not aware that there is a shortfall because of any lack of decision-making in my Department.
I have called Question No. 8.
We cannot accept that kind of reply.
Deputy Fahey may not be aware that this question was being dealt with for quite a long time before he came into the House. I shall not have Deputies coming in in relays in order to keep one question going all day.
The problem is that the Minister has avoided answering the question.
The Chair has no control as to how questions are answered.
The Minister is trying to differentiate between the grant for primary and secondary roads and the block grant. Such a differentiation cannot be made.
That is not a question.
But the question has not been answered.
It was dealt with long before the Deputy came into the House.
8.
asked the Minister for the Environment if he is aware of the critical financial situation that has arisen at Galway County Council following notification that the domestic rates and agricultural grants for local authorities will only be increased by 0.8 per cent in 1984 over the 1983 figure; and the action he will take to avoid redundancies.
I am aware that Galway County Council, in common with other local authorities and public agencies, are having to operate in difficult financial circumstances.
In comparing the 1984 provision for rates support grants with that for 1983 it must be remembered that the latter was increased by the present Government by £31.5 million over the provision made by the previous Government. This increase has been sustained into 1984 and an additional £2.27 million provided. The aggregate of current State grants and subsidies to local authorities in 1984 is expected to be 10.3 per cent approximately higher than the outturn for 1983. Current and capital allocations together will be up by £65 million approximately. Almost two-thirds of all local authority spending on current account is now provided by the Exchequer and, given the many other competing demands for Exchequer resources, this is as much as can be done in the prevailing conditions. I hope local authorities will do everything possible to minimise the adverse impact on employment by means which should include reasonable use of local sources of income and measures to promote greater cost-effectiveness in operations and in the elimination of any wasteful procedures.
I have undertaken a wide-ranging review to see what measures can be taken to put local authority finances on a firmer basis for the future.