asked the Minister for Finance the amount lost in revenue as a result of the more attractive prices in Northern Ireland.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Revenue Loss to Northern Ireland.
5.
There is no estimate available of the revenue losses attributable to cross-Border purchases. However, a number of measures have been taken by the Government to reduce the attractiveness of cross-Border purchases. The reduction last year in spirits duty largely eliminated the incentive for cross-Border purchases of spirits, which accounted for a substantial amount of these purchases. The excise duty reductions announced in the budget for televisions and motor vehicle parts and the reduction in VAT on a wide range of household items from 35 per cent to 23 per cent will also have a significant impact.
What steps does the Minister propose to take to safeguard further the small business people who are losing out as a result of cross-Border shopping?
I have indicated the measures which I have taken which will have an effect on cross-Border purchases. I have nothing further to add to that.
Among the measures taken by the Minister would he not acknowledge that the most significant measure which he has adopted has been the increase in the petrol price which now leaves a differential of about 75p? The other significant measure which he has adopted has been the borrowing in US dollars which has added to our petrol prices.
That is a speech.
That is absolute nonsense.
Would the Minister not acknowledge that, far from minimising the impact of cross-Border trading, his policies, particularly the increase of 10p in the price of petrol, are going to aggravate the problem?
How the Deputy can regard that as a question is beyond the Chair.
Does the Minister think that that measure will help to solve the problem, or rather tend to aggravate it?
I have indicated to the House the measures that I have taken which will have an effect on this matter. There is no doubt but that the Deputy should be careful in criticising individual tax changes in the budget since without the modest contribution we have had from the excise duty increase this year the VAT changes would not have been possible. Quite frankly, I am appalled that Deputy O'Kennedy should pretend, if I heard him right and I think I did, that borrowing dollars increases petrol prices. That is the most glorious non sequitur that I have heard for a long time.
I call Deputy Leonard.
The Minister maintains that he has no record of losses. Would he agree that over the last two years, from the 1983 budget, trading organisations and a chamber of commerce submitted statements to him, documented and audited, of the losses under every heading in that region? Still, his Department say that they have not proper records of that loss.
Over the last two years there have been a great many unofficial estimates of total spending in the North. In order of magnitude they go from one to seven. The fact of the matter is that in the nature of things it is impossible to know what these amounts are.
Would the Minister add in beer?
If we knew what the amounts were, we could have been able to stop them.
Would the Minister not agree——
I am calling Deputy O'Hanlon. I gave Deputy Leonard one question. The Deputy should not ignore the Chair.
When we are getting information like that, we are no better off.
Is the Minister really aware of the effect of the increase in the price of petrol in the recent budget and not alone the effect which it is having in the Border counties? In my own town two petrol stations have closed down and in the town nearest to mine three petrol stations have closed down. Is the Minister aware that no later than this morning on the news on BBC Northern Ireland the people of Northern Ireland were told how unattractive it was to come here because of the price of petrol? They were told that the increase which is now about to take place because of the increase in the price of the dollar will leave a variation of almost a full punt between the two prices.
That is not a non sequitur. That is a reality.
Is the Minister aware of the amount of petrol which is being bought in the Six Counties?
He is not. He does not want to know.
This is occurring right along the Border area. Has the Minister any idea of the loss of revenue?
I am perfectly aware, as anybody would have to be, that there is a problem of the kind indicated by Deputies on the other side of the House. What I have said is that we do not have any reliable figures for the size of that problem. I would caution the Deputy against giving any credence to propaganda that suggests that because the dollar up to yesterday — it has reversed itself somewhat today — was increasing in value as against European currencies, prices here would be the only ones that would move and prices in the UK, for example, would not move.
Not to the same extent.
Is the Minister aware that the Northern authorities have stated that £500 million came into the Ulster region——
Hear, hear.
——from the South last year. Is he aware of the depth of economic devastation in the region? Is he further aware of the number of small businesses and companies which are in trouble in the Dundalk region?
Hear, hear.
I am aware of the matters referred to by Deputy McGahon. In any estimate that they might make of the flow of funds or purchases, the Northern Ireland authorities have no better information to go on than we have.
To confirm the position as conveyed to the Minister from all sides of the House, would he at the invitation of backbenchers and Members from all sides from the Border region undertake a visit to the region and confirm from the customs officials on the spot the measure of cross-Border shopping going into Newry? Would he confirm from figures that they will make available to him, and from the sight of his own eyes in Dundalk and Newry, that this leakage is actually much more serious now than it was 12 months ago?
I do not have to wait for Deputy O'Kennedy to suggest to me that I either visit the area or speak to customs officials——
I think that the Minister should.
——or inform myself as to what the situation is.
He should hurry to Newry town.
Ceist a seacht. We should move on. We are now at this question too long.
I was going to ask about the beer. We have a mutual interest in beer.
The Deputy can ask some other time.
I was going to ask the Minister regarding the possibility of lowering the excise duty on beer.