Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 1985

Vol. 356 No. 8

Local Elections (Postal Voting) (Amendment) Regulations, 1985: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resume on the following motion:

That Dáil Éireann approves of the following regulations in draft:

Local Elections (Postal Voting) (Amendment) Regulations, 1985

a copy of which regulations in draft form was laid before Dáil Éireann on the 25th day of February, 1985."

—(Minister of State at the Department of the Environment.)

Mr. Dowling

Yesterday I said I was very happy that the regulations were being introduced in time for the local elections and that the Minister will introduce a wider Bill providing this facility for all future elections and referenda. The Minister pointed out that it would be necessary to compile a register of voters and to be included in this register, applications would have to be made between the middle and the end of April this year. It is a pity this work could not have been done when the present register was being compiled. However, this is a welcome development. There will be a large number of applications for the postal vote and the fact that a medical certificate will have to be provided showing that a person is suffering from a physical illness or a physical disability will help to eliminate a certain amount of abuse. Applications will also be made from people residing outside the country or who will be outside the country at the time of the local elections, which I understand will take place before the end of June. These are measures we all welcome.

June is a holiday month and people may have arranged to go away on holiday when the elections are being held. Perhaps this facility could be provided for them at future elections. As far back as 1974 I thought these people should have been provided with this facility in the regulations and perhaps the Minister would examine this possibility for future elections. It may be said that this would give rise to a greater level of abuse but I do not believe it would. The Minister and the returning officers must guard against abuses in the postal voting system. Everybody agrees that a person should have the right to vote, even if they cannot get to a polling station.

It is stated in the regulations that the postal voting paper will be sent by registered post, but more often than not the person who signs for the letter will not be the person to whom the vote applies. We have all had other people sign for our registered post at one time or another. A person could apply for a postal vote and arrange to have a family member or friend there to sign for that letter, but there is a danger that the person who signs for the letter could use that vote, and the Minister must do all in his power to eliminate any such abuse. There should be a proper register with the names of all involved in the local community — the agents, the local political organisations and so on. These names cannot be included in the current register but a supplementary register could issue at the end of May which would say who was entitled to the postal vote. I am all for the postal vote being granted in the circumstances outlined in this Bill.

This is the middle of the 1985 spring and there should be an advertising campaign telling people they can apply for a postal vote between 15 to 30 April and if they do not apply within that period the chances are they will not be considered. This facility will apply within that period the chances are they will not be considered. This facility will apply to all future elections. The Bill will provide for that. There are other circumstances, for instance, where people find themselves in hospital and unable to vote on polling day. A facility should be extended to hospitals. It should not be difficult to send a returning officer to a major hospital to cater for these people. At the moment people in psychiatric hospitals and in general medical hospitals who would like to vote are prevented from doing so and it is not asking a great deal from the Minister to remedy that situation. There are penalties for voting twice and people in hospital I am sure would not indulge in this abuse.

There is a definite need for stringent supervision to ensure the secrecy of the ballot. In relation to voting at home, there can be no secrecy as to who the person might vote for. To an extent voting in the Seanad elections is secret as it is done under the supervision of a returning officer. It would be difficult to get somebody to supervise the vote where it takes place in a house but that aspect should be considered. If abuses creep into the postal voting system they will increase through time so we should try to eliminate the possibility of abuses.

We are extending the right to vote to disabled people. It is a pity we have not gone a stage further. With a right there is an obligation so there should be an obligation to vote. When the postal voting register is examined there will be a far higher percentage of votes cast there than would be recorded on the normal register. We cannot extend the law to force people to vote but we should consider the fact that if a person is obliged to register to vote, by law there should be an equal obligation to cast that vote. Many people do not bother to go to the polling stations at all. They should have to attend even to destroy their vote unless they have a very good reason for not going. This could help to eliminate a lot of the duplication on the electoral registers. A persons' name would not be included on two or three registers because it would be up to him to ensure that his name appeared on one register only. This Bill should consider the legal possibility of ensuring that people cast their votes.

I welcome the regulations and hope that the efforts of the Minister will be appreciated, that people will respond and that there will be a minimum of abuse.

Mr. Tunney

I welcome the proposed legislation. We must welcome any opportunity given to a person entitled to vote to discharge that freedom. I would not regard it as an obligation. While we as politicians would regret that a person would not cast his vote, in a democracy we must concede a person's right to opt out if he so wishes. We cannot introduce a law to force him to vote.

The Minister in his speech indicates that the registration of postal voters will be carried out as a normal part of the procedure of compiling the register of electors. I would ask the Minister of State to accept that my comments are not directed towards him. They are directed towards the manner in which the obligation that is on the local authority to compile a register has been mismanaged over the years. Politicians will have no difficulty in throwing their minds back to every election where people who were entitled to vote have for one reason or another been left off the register. It is all right for us to say that an opportunity is given to a person to check the register and that people are reminded by notices in the papers that they should do so but the fact is that the custom has grown that people place their absolute confidence in the local authority in the matter of the compilation of the register. There is ample evidence that the compilation has taken place in a rather haphazard fashion. We have the rather annoying situation, not as Deputy Dowling said of people not exercising their right to vote, but of people reporting to the polling booths to discover that their names are not on the register. I cannot say that I have the solution to the problem but I have some recollection of raising this matter before and getting an assurance from the Minister for the Environment that he had set up a committee to examine this matter.

That is the only point I wish to make. I welcome the motion but I hope that a better modus operandi will exist in regard to the recording of those entitled to vote under the new legislation. Meanwhile, I should like to get the Minister's views on the important matter I have raised. I am sure he has discovered in his own constituency that many would-be voters have been unduly distressed on arriving at polling booths to find that their names were not on the register and therefore that they could not vote. We must have confidence in the people who compile the register. I suggest it should be sufficient to establish the bona fides of persons, even if their names are not on the register.

Mr. Durkan

I welcome the motion whose purpose is to enable persons who are unable to go to polling booths but who are entitled to vote to record their votes by post. We all agree on the need to introduce a proper postal voting system to facilitate ill or disabled persons. I am glad the Minister has decided to introduce the motion, which will do that. There are many people throughout the country confined to wheelchairs and it would cause great hardship, and did in the past, if they were compelled to attend polling booths to reach which many of them have to travel long distances. Likewise, the motion will be useful for those suffering from chronic illness or who are disabled, most of whom have very high regard for their right to vote. In the past such people have been very distressed because of their inability to cast their votes. In modern society when people have such civic pride as to be anxious to exercise the franchise we should make every effort to facilitate them.

I welcome the safeguard in regard to the provision of medical certificates in appropriate cases. However, there is another problem to which I should allude. All postal voting systems apply to large numbers of people and are open to widespread abuse. The system which applied here in 1974 was widely abused and we should find a means to ensure that such abuses will be stamped out. I can think of countless cases of elderly people who because of their age have not had opportunities to voice their opinions on whom they wished to vote for. In many instances they have had their minds made up for them. I hope that all people involved in the local elections will have respect for such people and that such voters will have the right to make up their own minds about exercising the franchise. I agree that people have the right to try to persuade electors to vote one way or the other, but it should stop at that. We have heard horrific stories about certain people in the past not having had hand, act or part in how they voted or to whom their votes went.

We must have careful regard for these things in the forthcoming local elections because it behoves all of us in public life to ensure that the highest possible standards will be applied in this postal voting system. I welcome the manner in which the motion will enable people who would not otherwise be able to vote to do so. I hope this will alleviate some of the pressures and hardships people have had to suffer in the past.

Proinsias De Rossa

Generally, I welcome the motion, which is in time for the local elections some time in June. However, again we are just making temporary arrangements to extend postal voting. The House will be aware that I raised this matter, particularly in regard to disabled people, a number of times and at about this time last year I tables a Private Members' Bill to provide this facility. At that time the Minister said he was not in favour of a piecemeal approach to the problem and that he would prefer to refer the matter to the Dáil Committee on Legislation. He indicated that legislation would be forthcoming in the near future. That is a year ago and we are still being told we will have it in the near future.

I hope the Minister will confirm today that that legislation will be brought in here in time for the preparation of the 1986 register so that all disabled and ill people who wish to do so will be able to cast their votes without hardship. The Committee on Legislation spent only an hour discussion this matter and did not bring forward any new ideas or recommendations. I hope the matter will not be deferred much longer. It is time the House got down to dealing with the problem through legislation.

The question of whether a person should be obliged to vote has been raised. I have mixed feelings about that. The failure of a proportion of the electorate to vote varies from area to area from as much as 60 per cent to as low as 15 per cent. That has never been investigated adequately to find out why people are not voting. I am pretty certain that in many cases it is due to the inability of people to get to polling stations whether through disability, the nature of their work or, as happens in my constituency, because they have transferred to the other side of the city. I should like the Minister to look at the position in my constituency, although I do not know if he will be in a position to deal with it before the forthcoming local elections. In the Ballymun area between January, when the final draft register was being prepared. and June, when the elections will be held, in the region of 500 people will have transferred from there. Most of them will have gone to Tallaght, Clondalkin or Blanchardstown and it would be physically impossible for most of those people to get back to Ballymun to cast their votes. Some facility should be provided either to enable them to have a postal vote or transfer their vote to the area where they live. The right to vote, and the secrecy of the ballot, has been won over the years by a lot of hard struggle. We must ensure that every facility is provided to enable people cast their vote.

I should like to refer to regulation No. 6 which enables the returning officer to request any applicant to supply him with any additional information he may require to verify the application. That is not an unreasonable regulation but the time allowed for the return of such information is unreasonable. Only seven days are allowed for the return of the information requested. In view of the fact that this would involve people who would be away from home or are disabled, at least 14 days should be allowed for the return of that information. It must be borne in mind that delays occur in the postal service which may interfere with the return of the material. The Minister should have another look at that and consider extending it to 14 days.

Listening to other speakers I got the impression that a lot of abuse of the postal voting system may have occurred in institutions. The Minister should consider— I put this suggestion before—providing a system of mobile polling stations for institutions. Where a hospital or an institution has a large number of voters who are permanent residents it is only reasonable that they should be provided with a supervised form of voting. That may eliminate the possibility of the misuse of the system in those areas. It is degrading on election day to see election workers lorrying disabled and old people from institutions to polling stations in order to get the last vote out. The Minister, and the House should ensure that people can perform their right to cast their vote in secrecy and that the best facilities are made available to enable them do that. It must be degrading on those who virtually have to carry voters from institutions to polling stations. They should not have to do that and voters should not have to put up with that type of activity.

Generally, I welcome the regulations. I regret that we are passing what is in effect a temporary measure which relates only to local elections. I hope the Minister will be in a position to confirm that legislation for general elections, by-elections, and referenda will be brought before us shortly. In order for it to be in in time it should have passed through the House before the Summer Recess. I hope the Minister will consider the points I made regarding mobile polling stations for institutions and the need for an extension of the period for the return of information requested by a returning officer.

Mr. Manning

Like those who have contributed so far, I welcome the measure although, like the last speaker, I would be happier if we were dealing with a comprehensive Bill or regulation to give postal voting to a wider range of categories. The measure before us is an interim one to tighten up existing regulations which did not prove altogether satisfactory when postal voting was used in local elections in 1974. The Minister has explained what the new regulations are about and there has not been any disagreement about them.

I should like to avail of the occasion to make the general point that we have in many ways been very unimaginative in our efforts to ensure that those who are legally entitled to vote can do so. Deputy De Rossa made the point that we should look at these areas to see if we can find ideas that will enable us to extend the facility of voting. I would not want to go so far as to recommend that there should be compulsory voting as exists in some countries. Under that system those who fail to cast their vote must explain why they did not and, if their explanation is not accepted, they can be fined. Voting is a privilege as well as a duty and, to a certain extent, those who do not vote are indicating an expression of their political choice. However, the extension of postal voting gives us an opportunity to ensure that those entitled to vote and who wish to do so are not debarred because of some physical ailment or because their work temporarily takes them away from exercising their right. It also, as far as possible, ensures that the postal vote is carried out with the same safeguards for fairness and honesty as prevails in ordinary voting.

The new regulations go some way to ensuring that the vote is carried out fairly. Although I was not in politics at the time, I can recall that there was a great deal of disquiet from politicians of all parties in 1974 about the widespread abuse of the postal voting system that operated then. I hope these measures go some way to tightening that up. The whole question of abuse, of personation and double voting needs to be tightened up, not just for postal voting but generally. It is an urban and not rural phenomenon. In areas where there is a large transient population, "flatland" where there are many students or people who do not stay for very long, personation is often carried out on a large scale. In the cities it may well be coming to the stage where some form of identification will be mandatory. In a marginal constituency a seat may be won or lost through a couple of hundred votes illegally cast. It is in the interests of all parties, all politicians will agree, that elections must be fair and be seen to be fair if they are to carry any credibility.

This regulation is a reforming, tightening up measure. I know that the Minister has much reforming legislation in hand at the moment, but I suggest that there are other areas of our electoral law and practice which need examination. For example, should there be a legal limit on the amount of money a candidate is allowed to spend in an election? I believe that there should. Huge sums of money are being spent needlessly in election campaigns which could bring the entire electoral system into disrepute.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is——

Mr. Manning

I agree, a Cheann Comhairle, that I am straying from the point.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are not the only one who has been straying, but you seem to be wandering.

Mr. Manning

The Minister might look at the question of limits on poster advertising. My main concern is the extension even further of the postal vote but I knew that the Minister and his Department are looking into this possibility. We should be adventurous and imaginative in the categories to whom we will extend postal voting in the future. Straight away, there is a very strong case for allowing postal voting for servants of the State who are working abroad permanently, those in our embassies who still are Irish citizens. I would extend the same rights to those executives and workers in our semi-State bodies whose business on behalf of the State takes them out of the country. They should be allowed to vote, either in the embassies or by post, in a supervised way which does not allow abuse.

The key issue in postal voting is that abuses must be guarded against and penalties must be extremely strict. Postal voting has worried people in the past because it was open to abuse. I wonder how tight is the supervision of the postal voting in the election for the university seats in the Seanad. I suspect that the supervision there is not as tight as it should be and that a number of votes go astray. That system lends itself to abuse. Postal voting must be as foolproof as possible and the penalties should be such as to deter anybody who is tempted to abuse the system.

I welcome the measure. I urge the Minister to bring in as quickly as possible the extension of postal voting as discussed by the Legislation Committee. Also to be included, perhaps, should be airline pilots and personnel of the B & I, much of whose time is spent out of the country; but they pay their taxes and see themselves very much a part of the system. On that note, I wish the Minister well with the new regulations.

Mr. Carey

I add my support for the Minister in his introduction of these regulations. There has been a particularly substantial lobby from the disabled who are unhappy at the prospect of being unable to vote at elections. Although this measure is merely an extension of the 1974 regulations, it is proper that the Minister should give the disabled and the handicapped the prospect of voting at the next election in the comfort of their own home or institution.

In 1974 there was widescale abuse, not just confined to cities and urban areas but in rural areas also. In implementing these new regulations, I hope that the Minister will provide definite additional cross checks. The attitude of the returning officers in the various constituencies who compile these registers is not as strict as it might be. I note that the postal vote will now be sent by registered post, but this Bill leaves the system open to abuse if people are physically ill or disabled. The supervising officer should seek the necessary additional information from the appropriate health board to confirm that the applicant is genuine. The short period from 15 to 30 April might not lend itself to continuous investigation, but because of the abuses experienced in 1974 the Minister should be considering these safeguards. Changes are necessary, in particular with regard to geriatric hospitals. I do not know if the occupants of such hospitals will be included in these regulations. If they are to be, perhaps mobile polling stations should be used instead of postal voting, with the expenses which are likely to arise in those circumstances. The history of abuse in this respect is well known to the Minister. There is an onus on him now to spell out clearly what he means by the circumstances of occupation, service or employment to illustrate the category who will benefit from this regulation.

The handicapped will welcome these regulations. I appeal to the returning officers to continue the high standards and honesty with which most of them have approached this task. There is a problem about transient populations all over the country. In our constituency for example, there is a large construction operation at Moneypoint. There are employees working there who come from all over the country and who would probably use postal voting if the Minister includes that category in the new regulations. What cross check would there be in those circumstance? There are difficulties involved. I wish the Minister well and hope that his officers can find a reasonable solution.

Mr. Farrelly

I should like to welcome this proposal by the Minister. I remember when this postal vote regulation was first introduced in 1974. It was worth while for those people who were unable to get out to vote. When the legislation is finally drafted I hope it will eliminate the abuses which were very evident on that occasion. I would not like to see these proposals being abused. People have a right to vote at every election. These proposals are very welcome to disabled people and other people who for one reason or another cannot get out to vote. There will be a time scale and the returning officers will known whether the excuses made were reasonable and proper. I hope the postal vote will be extended to general elections in the future. We must ensure that everybody has an opportunity to vote.

It is hard for people to get into some of the polling booths. Big changes have been made in this area over the past few years. There are large numbers of people in psychiatric hospitals who are unable to go to the polling booths.

There were large scale abuses in 1974 in different areas by different people. Perhaps that was one reason why the postal vote was not available in 1979. I welcome the motion. People who have a genuine reason for not being able to vote at the polling booths are entitled to a postal vote. They may be working away from home and unable to vote in the middle of the week. If the legislation is enacted properly we will avoid the possibility of abuse.

Mrs. A. Doyle

I support and welcome this motion before the House that Dáil Éireann approves the Local Elections (Postal Voting) (Amendment) Regulations, 1985. There have been many discussions in this House on the pros and cons of postal voting. I am delighted the Minister has finally accepted that the advantages outweigh the not inconsiderable risks involved.

The report of the working party on the register of electors of March 1983 dwelt considerably on the whole aspect of postal voting. Part of that working party's terms of reference was to examine and make recommendations on a scheme of postal voting for disabled persons and others who may be unable to vote in person at an election. Our Constitution recognises that every citizen without distinction of sex who has reached the age of 18 years and who is not disqualified by law and complies with the provisions of the law relating to the election of Members of Dáil Éireann shall have the right to vote at an election for Members of Dáil Éireann.

As local democracy is but the building block of national democracy, the same premise can be applied to local elections and, indeed, any other election of public representatives. I am delighted to note from the Minister's speech that he is having a Bill prepared which will allow for postal voting at all elections and referenda. He has promised that this Bill will take into account the wide and various views expressed by Deputies and Senators.

The registration of postal voters will be carried out as part of the procedure for compiling registers of electors which takes place in the autumn of each year. The Minister has promised to try to ensure that the legislation will be in operation in time for the 1986 draft register. In the meantime the draft regulations we are now discussing will allow postal voting in the local elections scheduled for June of this year. They will be in line, as far as possible, with the proposals in the forthcoming Bill.

It is the undeniable right of all our citizens who, through illness or physical disability of any kind or due to the circumstances of their employment, cannot exercise their vote in person to have the postal vote. Ironically the disabled and physically ill are all entitled to be registered as electors but they are not enabled to vote. The ability to exercise their franchise must outweigh any consideration in relation to the possibility of abuse. Any postal voting arrangements which have not got the confidence of responsible public representatives will fall into disrepute and could damage the entire electoral process.

The working party report of 1983 placed considerable emphasis on the avoidance of any abuse within the system, because once the postal voting system is established and is operating well it can then, if necessary, be extended. If the system is unsatisfactory the entire concept of postal voting will be at risk and there will be a large question mark over the integrity of any postal voting system. Under the Local Elections Postal Voting Regulations of 1974 postal voting facilities were extended to those who needed them at the local elections. That year a total of 30,689 of our electorate, or 1.52 per cent, applied to vote by post.

There was a different demand for postal votes throughout the country within the different counties. Illness or physical disability accounted for 60 per cent of the applications for the local elections in 1974. Circumstances in relation to employment accounted for approximately another 20 per cent of applicants, with yet another 20 per cent being attributable to change of address. The official administrative viewpoint of the postal voting system of that year is that it operated satisfactorily. They claim that some irregularities were investigated and there were a few prosecutions. However, the viewpoint of public representatives, to which I subscribe, is that the system was abused far more than was recognised. Indeed there is no county that cannot recount stories of postmen even collecting up votes and distributing them among the candidates. Political parties were particularly avid and organised in relation to the collection of unused votes. I am afraid that all parties, to a greater or lesser extent, were tarred with the one brush in this regard.

Postal voting arrangements were officially suspended for the 1979 local elections because the European elections were being held on the same day and other European countries did not have the same postal voting arrangements. Therefore it was deemed impractical for two elections to be held simultaneously with different postal voting arrangements. I cannot help thinking that the view of public representatives in relation to the widespread abuse that occurred at the local elections of 1974 was behind some of the decisions taken for the 1979 local elections. However, that is not the official reason given.

Under present legislation postal voting facilities at Dáil elections, Presidential elections, European Assembly elections and referenda are confined to members of the Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces. There are many categories of occupations, such as public servants abroad, those in the diplomatic service, merchant seamen and others who have for a long time canvassed for the right to exercise their vote at all elections. There is merit in each and every one of these cases. Ironically one of the most vociferous groups over the years in canvassing for a right to a postal vote were the employees of Irish Shipping Limited. Regrettably most of these will not now need the postal vote in the local elections in this year now that they might be entitled to it.

The abuse factor has been the greatest deterrent in introducing a wider system of postal voting. I commend the Minister on his efforts on this occasion to try to limit possible opportunity for abuse by the special measures he is undertaking to minimise such risks. First, he has restricted the categories of people who will qualify for a postal vote compared with the 1974 local elections. Change of address will no longer constitute sufficient reason to qualify for a postal vote. I suppose that one aspect was open to the widest range of abuse even though there are many cases of people who will have moved house between the compilation of the draft register and the publication of the actual register in any one year. Obviously the Minister has considered that the possible abuses in this case outweigh the entitlements of those involved. However, the range of eligibility should still cater for the majority of those who have a genuine claim to vote by post. They are broadly in line with the recommendations of the Joint Committee on Legislation in this regard also.

The question of diplomats and various other categories who are resident abroad and who cannot now be registered under existing law will be dealt with when the Bill the Minister has promised is introduced. The Minister has tightened up also on the application procedure for the postal vote. Applications will have to be made earlier so that there will be sufficient time allowed for the proper screening of such applicants, and for the evaluation of the merits of individual cases. Each applicant will also have to have a certificate from his or her employer or doctor, or give a statutory declaration where they are self-employed. Returning officers will be entitled to seek further information they may deem necessary to establish the bona fides of any applicant.

I referred briefly to the great abuse that in my opinion occurred in the issuing of ballot papers by post to voters in the local elections. The Minister has wisely decided that all ballot papers will in future be sent by registered post, a signature being had in respect of any ballot paper delivered. This should alleviate the situation in relation to this avenue of abuse but I fear it will not in any way close it off altogether.

One has only to look at the experiences of other countries in relation to postal voting to see how difficult it is to operate and to copperfasten conditions to avoid abuse altogether. Belgium and France had wide postal voting facilities but abolished them in the mid-seventies because of abuse. The Netherlands postal voting facilities were available only to civil servants and their spouses who were abroad. Postal voting is not available at all in Greece. However, in the United Kingdom, a postal vote is available to any person who cannot vote in person due to physical disability or the nature of their employment. In West Germany a postal vote is available on various grounds — change of address, employment, physical disability or through participation in the diplomatic service. The same applies to Denmark. In fact Denmark and West Germany have the widest range of postal voting facilities. I have no doubt that the Minister will have taken a look at their experiences, probably having learned much from them. Neither have I any doubt but that it will be a matter of time only before there is uniform agreement within the EC in relation to postal voting generally.

When the Minister is looking at the wider Bill he has promised to introduce as soon as possible I would urge him to endeavour to include as many categories as wish to have a postal vote. I should particularly like him to make a stand and allow a postal vote for our prisoners who are not entitled to such at present. In most EC countries a postal vote is not allowed to prisoners. Many of the problems that have people in prison in the first place are occasioned by a sense of alienation, of not belonging to the system to which we all contribute. Could there be a better start on the road to rehabilitation than allowing prisoners to exercise their franchise? After all, the theory of a prison period is that we are rehabilitating prisoners to take their place in society as useful members once they have served their sentences. They might well spend some of that time considering what the system is about, the society they are about to join and of which hopefully they will become successful members. Therefore it follows quite logically that the least we could do is allow them exercise their franchise in relation to that system while in prison.

I commend this motion to the House and congratulate the Minister on taking this initiative because I have mentioned in passing the widespread abuse to which postal voting generally is open. But I have no doubt that its advantages outweigh its possible abuses. I feel the Minister is committed to endeavouring to copperfasten the system in relation to abuse, tightening up any loose ends there may be in this regard. When considering the broader Bill I would ask him to look at the various categories at present denied this postal vote. I am not sure whether we will be able to consider long-stay patients in mental institutions, not because I feel that many of them are not entitled or able to exercise their franchise but because these people are most vulnerable to abuse in the system. If there is a way of avoiding this I am sure the Minister will discover it and allow these people to exercise their vote.

In a sense it is amazing that it has taken us this long to consider the broader concept of postal voting. The Electoral (Amendment) Bill of 1983 allowed British citizens in this country the right to vote. At the time I said, and I still contend, that all aliens in this country should be allowed to vote with possible insistence on reciprocity vis-à-vis our European partners. We are today discussing a section of Irish citizens who heretofore have had no vote. We have already allowed British citizens the vote while this minority grouping have had to wait until today. I commend the Minister on having taken this action. I know it has been difficult. The recommendations of the working party on the register of electors of 1983 are extremely sound and I have no doubt that there will be far more in this regard when we see what the Minister has in mind in the Bill promised.

Dr. O'Hanlon

I support this motion but I am disappointed that the regulations do not go further, allowing the placing of the names of persons on the postal vote register as in the case of members of the Garda Síochána and Army. While I agree with extending the system of postal votes on the basis of occupation, such as the diplomatic staff, to those working on boats and indeed to prisoners, I am particularly concerned about the disabled. There are two categories of disabled, those at home and unable to attend a polling station and those who are able to attend a polling station.

People who are permanently incapacitated should have a postal vote similar to that given to members of the Garda and the Army. There names should be on the register with P for postal vote after them and they should know their entitlement to a postal vote. There should not be any great difficulty in identifying permanent incapacity, as a medical certificate could be furnished to this effect which would allow names to be placed on the register. At election times, the fact that they are still alive could be verified by their doctor which would ensure that ballot papers did not fall into the wrong hands. The handicapped have been fighting for this right for many years and it could be rapidly incorporated into our system of compiling the electoral list.

The other category of disabled are those able to attend polling stations and these people should be given the option of a postal vote or the right to attend a polling station because of the number of polling stations which are totally unsuited for the disabled. In this regard, county councils and corporations should look at the polling stations and see if more suitable premises could be made available because, apart from the physically handicapped, many stations are unsuitable for the elderly as there are steps and the buildings may be small and dark. There has been tremendous community development in most areas over the last 10 years and many community centres would make excellent polling stations instead of those used at present. The voting system should be simplified and the very best premises in each polling area should be made available so that people with any degree of handicap — not just those coping with the handicap of old age — would have easy access if they wished to vote.

The question of long term patients in residential care in institutions also arises. When I mentioned the desirability of having postal votes available to the severely handicapped and to those permanently incapacitated, I was referring to those living at home because I see a problem in relation to those in residential care with regard to postal votes. The difficulty with postal votes is that these people might be susceptible to influence. For example, there is a home for the elderly in my constituency with 230 beds, and in your town. A Cheann Comhairle, St. Felim's provides 300 beds. In an institution catering for 300 people, it could happen that there would be an abuse of the system and that should be taken into consideration. In the past, polling stations were provided in long term institutions and, while they worked very well, there is the problem of harassment of elderly people by supporters of political parties in their eagerness to get people to support them. While I am in favour of postal votes, the name on the register with P after it for those permanently incapacitated who are living at home or in small units, I have an open mind on how the question of postal voting should be approached. However, I welcome the new regulations, they are a step in the right direction but I appeal to the Minister to look at the whole question on a more permanent basis and to ensure that people who are ill and handicapped are catered for.

I understand that in some countries psychiatrically ill people are not given the right to vote. We should look at this area very carefully because, thankfully, most psychiatric illness is amenable to treatment at present and psychiatrically ill people should be treated in the same way as those in geriatric hospitals or other institutions.

Mrs. Owen

Like other speakers, I welcome the implementation of these regulations. Postal voting is a hoary chestnut which comes up every time we have an election and I am glad that the Minister has seen fit to bring forward these regulations. In 1983 a working party stated that most of the submission they received argued in favour of the extension of postal voting facilities to one or more categories of person. They spelled out the categories they wished to see included in postal voting.

By bringing in these regulations, I hope we will continue the impetus, as the Minister promised, and bring in full legislation which will deal with the subject once and for all. The regulations were there in 1974 but they only applied to that election because, in 1979, when there was a European election it was administratively too difficult to apply them. Obviously, the experience of the regulations in 1974 is available to the Department of the Environment and will be taken into account in tightening up future legislation. There is considerable concern that granting the facility for more people to be on the register would open up the possibility of further abuse.

Some of the regulations may be in terms that are very general. I should like to hear the Minister comment in this regard. For instance, they seem to leave in the hands of the returning officer the sole say as to whether somebody's bona fide is correct. I am merely pondering what qualification a returning officer would have to enable him decide whether, for instance, a medical certificate is valid. It is not likely that the returning officer would be a doctor so I am wondering what back-up service will be provided to enable returning officers confirm the validity or otherwise of a request for a postal vote. The draft regulations provide that a person applying for a postal vote shall supply any information that the returning officer may require for the purpose of satisfying himself that the applicant is a qualified person. The relevant paragraph provides further that, if the applicant fails within seven days of being so required to supply the information, the returning officer shall rule the application invalid.

One can only hope that every precaution will be taken to ensure that the request for further information reaches the person for whom it is intended. Our postal service, though it has improved, cannot be relied on totally at all times. Perhaps there will be a system whereby inspectors will call to the applicants requesting the additional information. Two or three days might elapse before the request for information reaches the applicant, especially in the case of a sick person whose post might have to be collected and delivered by a relative. We must make every effort possible to provide this facility for people who have been disenfranchised because of not having been able to vote for a number of years as a result of prolonged illness or handicap.

Because of the nature of some of those who will be applying for certificates to enable them to vote by post, I should like to hear the Minister say what arrangement might be made to ensure that only the person to whom the authorisation was issued is allowed vote. The closing date for applications is 30 April, but if the elections do not take place for two months afterwards it might very well be the case that some of the people concerned would have died in the meantime, having regard to the fact that we are talking about people who are old or ill. We must do everything possible to ensure that there is as little abuse of the system as possible and that ballot papers issued to applicants do not find their way into the hands of other people who abuse them. This is a small point but we must endeavour to close all loopholes.

Another area of concern is the method of delivering the voting papers either to institutions from which there might have been a large number of applications or to individuals. Again, we must guard against the possibility of abuse. One wonders how much abuse there is of the existing postal list, whether all the ballot papers are delivered to the Garda and Army personnel for whom they are intended. As a result of this legislation there will be a lot more of those ballot papers going through the post. I assume they will be registered and that will mean they will have to be signed for. We should endeavour not to send the ballot papers in large quantities in order to eliminate the possibility of someone arranging for the packets to disappear.

The 1974 regulations included a classification of persons who were entitled to postal voting but this category are not included in this instance. We seem to have combined the groups A and B. The 1974 regulations included people, referred to as group A and defined as people who by the circumstances of their application, service or employment were entitled to postal voting, while those in the group referred to as the B group were defined as those absent from the place in respect of which they were registered as electors. Why have the B group been excluded? Did the clause prove to be too difficult to administer?

The group D people have been excluded also in this instance. It is regrettable that a person employed by a returning officer in connection with an election will not be able to vote if his registration is at a polling station other than the one at which he is employed. It would be very difficult, for instance, in a small polling station, where only one person was in charge, for that person to go elsewhere to vote. If there is some new arrangement whereby people can vote at the station at which they are engaged, I should like the Minister to tell us so.

I welcome the regulations but in the final legislation we must ensure that everything is as tight as possible. For some time I have been concerned, as have all of us, about the security of the State and of its officers in the Garda and in the Army. At present the electoral register indicates by way of the appearance of the letter "P" after a voter's name that he is entitled to postal voting. Obviously, this indicates the electors in any area who are members of the Garda. I would have reservations in this day and age about making that sort of information so freely available. When we are canvassing from door to door we canvass at those houses where there is a "P" after the elector's name. Is there any necessity to continue to identify people in that way? There is no reason for us to know the identification of those who have postal votes. That would be a matter only for a returning officer.

As Deputy O'Hanlon has said, there are people who are not disabled, who are not in wheelchairs and who would not be in a position to obtain a certificate to the effect that they were not able to leave their houses to go to a polling station but who, because of some temporary disability perhaps, would not be able to enter the station. Every effort should be made to utilise facilities that are more appropriate for people suffering from such ailments as arthritis and who consequently would have difficulty in mounting steps. We tend automatically to use our national schools as polling stations but many of those schools were built in times when we were not as conscious as we are now of the difficulties of the handicapped or infirm or of people with temporary disabilities such as broken limbs. There are now many splendid community centre type buildings that are much more appropriate for the general use of people, whether fit or unfit, whether they are handicapped or able-bodied. This matter should be considered seriously. Today we are making regulations that will move us into the eighties. We could also look at community facilities that have been funded by large State grants. They should be made available as polling stations and I ask the Minister to consider this matter.

I welcome the indication of the Minister that he intends to bring in comprehensive legislation in this area. I assume he will cover such thorny areas as votes for people other than Irish nationals. I accept with confidence, his undertaking that the legislation in question will be available before 1986. As a former member of a local authority he knows the trouble and the time it takes to prepare the register. The sooner the necessary legislation is enacted the better for local authority officials who have to compile registers and notify people. I welcome the introduction of the regulations before the House.

Mrs. O'Rourke

Like other Members who have been involved in local elections, I welcome the extension of the vote. Deputy Owen said this was a time when people are conscious of security and she spoke about having the letter P beside one's name on the register. I come from a town that has perhaps the largest Army vote. Canvassers for the various parties have found it necessary to visit such people at least a week before they visit other voters because they cast their votes first.

I welcome the extension of the franchise, as does anybody who believes in democracy. I participated in the 1974 elections and I witnessed abuses which were referred to in the report of the working party. In the intervening years Members here have also spoken about the different kinds of abuses that occured when that system of voting was in operation. However, most of those have been circumvented in the draft regulations now before the House.

I welcome the early date of 30 April which will be at least six weeks before the local elections take place. This will mean that only genuine people will apply because they will have to plan and organise their campaign in good time. The abuses that occurred in the past were due in part to the haphazard delivery of votes and in some areas some canny people were in a position to do something about that. The registered delivery of a vote to the housebound person or to the person who may be away from home means that the postal vote will have to be signed for and presumably the postal authorities will have to be satisfied that the person concerned is bona fide. A major drawback in the previous system was that many postal votes could be collected and many of them were delivered throughout the rural lanes of Ireland. This was done in many instances to elderly voters who were assisted in their voting pattern.

Up to now only Army personnel and the Garda were entitled to a postal vote. Deputy Owen in her contribution wondered about the extent to which postal votes would be used. I saw a statistic recently that showed that the percentage of voters who voted from a postal register was considerably higher than the percentage voting from an ordinary register. For instance, in an Army barracks where there were 1,000 voters, over 90 per cent voted in the last election. This meant that the people concerned took their civic duties very seriously. I am sure this will extend also to those who will now be eligible for a postal vote.

I am rather concerned with regard to the self-employed person who may now apply for a postal vote by 30 April. I agree that fishermen, those in the merchant navy, commercial travellers or school inspectors are all in occupations that entail their being away from home for long periods and the case for giving those people a postal vote is quite clear. However, I cannot quite see the same case for the self-employed. This matter was not explained fully in the regulations. Is the Minister saying that if one's hours of work are erratic a person could find himself unable to leave his place of work to vote? I hope the Minister will clarify that point because I do not understand the full implications. I note that such a person or one whose work takes him around the country must get the approval of a peace commissioner or a commissioner for oaths with regard to his application. There may be a certain amount of trouble involved in going to a commissioner for oaths because there are not too many, but I suggest that it should be necessary to have a commissioner for oaths sign the necessary forms rather than a peace commissioner. I am anxious for clarification regarding the nature of self-employed work that would entitle a person to apply for a postal vote.

Other speakers have referred to the considerable hardships imposed on people in actually getting to polling stations. It is always people who have to suffer hardship and perhaps pain who make the effort to do their civic duty. For those who cannot genuinely leave their homes postal voting will be a boon. It should be possible for those who are partially mobile to vote. They can find it impossible to vote because they cannot climb the stairs. Admittedly many polling stations were not built for that purpose but schools in particular are used as polling stations. I hope that in time all public places will provide facilities to allow easy access for the handicapped.

There is general agreement about these regulations which have been laid before the House and I look forward to clarification of the points I have raised.

Mr. L.T. Cosgrave

I join other speakers in complimenting the Minister on bringing in these regulations. We have all been inundated with requests to have the postal voting system extended. In my view the people who should have postal votes are those who are physically disabled or physically ill and those who would find it extremely difficult to make the long journey to the polling stations. These are the people who most want to vote. I agree with previous speakers who said that many old people want to vote. It is usually the people who have most difficulty in getting to the polling stations who are most insistent on voting. The people who complain most are usually those who do not bother to vote. This is the first step to extend postal voting and the Minister said a Bill will be introduced soon which will extend this facility further.

The people who will benefit under these regulations are those who have a physical disability or illness or those who find it almost impossible to vote because of their occupation, service or employment. In extending these facilities we must ensure that the people to whom the facility is extended are the people who use the vote. We must provide certain safeguards, especially where people suffering from a physical disability or illness are in nursing homes or are long stay patients in hospitals. These regulations should be rigidly adhered to and as far as possible we should lessen the possibility of abusing the system. In these nursing homes and hospitals there may be anything from ten to 100 people availing of this facility and when these people apply for the privilege of the postal vote we must ensure that the regulations are strictly adhered to. Every effort should be made to ensure that the person whose name is on the postal vote is the person who fills in that form and returns it. This system could be open to abuse. There is less chance of abuse when the postal vote is sent to a person's home because the letter will be sent by registered post.

Up to now the people who had the right to the postal vote were members of the Garda and of the Defence Forces and it is a step in the right direction that we are now extending this system. We have had many representations about this and I hope that people who were not in a position to vote will be able to do so now. I am sure doctors will be willing to certify that these people are ill and qualify for the postal vote, but we have to be careful when asking employers to sign because this could be open to abuse. We will have to clearly define the categories to whom this facility will apply. While some people may find it inconvenient to vote, they should be encouraged to attend the polling stations. Those who should be entitled to the postal vote are diplomats serving overseas, people at sea, salesmen and those who find it physically impossible to attend polling stations. It would be unreasonable to expect a salesman to endanger his livelihood by staying at home to vote.

The returning officer will have to look very carefully at applications for the postal vote. I notice that the forms are to be signed by a peace commissioner or a commissioner for oaths, but I wonder if this could be extended to a garda. I do not want to put an extra burden on the Garda who have been given extra duties lately because of the new passport system, but it should be possible for a returning officer to check with the Garda on an employee whose form has been signed by his employer and a peace commissioner. If an application is turned down, is there an appeals procedure? Perhaps this could be considered in the Bill which the Minister will bring in.

In relation to the new Bill, I hope the Minister will consider changing the time of year for the compilation and the publishing of the draft register. At the moment it is published on 15 December and corrections have to be in by around 15 January. This is a very bad time of the year, from just before Christmas to shortly after Christmas when people could not be bothered checking the register. I hope the Minister will consider moving this to a more suitable time of the year along with extending the franchise following the referendum last year.

This new regulation will allow people who were not in a position to exercise their rights up to now to exercise their right to vote. I hope that in June the system will work, eliminating many of the defects under the previous regulations. I compliment the Minister for introducing this overdue legislation which will benefit people who because of physical disability or illness were not able to go to polling stations.

I hope the Minister will direct that as far as possible polling booths are available to disabled persons and old people. To get to some polling booths people were required to climb flights of stairs to exercise their francise and this proved a deterrent to many who were not in a position to climb stairs. I hope the Minister will consider some of the points raised and cover them in the new Bill.

Mr. J. Leonard

I welcome the regulations and the prospect of ensuring that disabled persons can cast their votes. It is only when people are unable to vote that the vote becomes so important. The problems of disabled persons have been recognised in many areas over the last few years and it is important to recognise the problems here as well and to provide them with an opportunity to cast their votes.

In this Bill I hope the Minister will eliminate many of the present anomalies and that he will have a rethink on the compilation of the register. Today, with such a shift in population, one of the greatest problems is when people move house and there is no record as to where they moved. This makes the compilation of the register rather difficult. The 1974 regulations were not as restrictive as these and we certainly do not want to see a Bill whose provisions are as loose as those in 1974. There was not appropriate supervision of the certification of voters. In my own polling station a person came to claim a vote and it was found that one of his family had voted for him in the belief that he would not be returning in time to vote. Measures introduced at that time were very liberal and it is important to ensure now that this sort of thing will not happen on a regular basis.

Previous speakers mentioned polling stations and the fact that in many cases they were inaccessible to physically disabled persons. More use should be made of community centres, schools and so on. A habit has developed over the years in some areas where the ballot papers are taken out of the polling station to a car to be marked in the presence of the clerk or presiding officer and the scrutineers for the various political parties. In other areas this was not allowed because it was irregular.

In this Bill the Minister has a great opportunity to examine the system of compilation of the draft register. In relation to elections it should be a general rule for the returning officer to examine the premises for suitability prior to polling day. Many polling stations have been housed in premises such as disused schools and before the election they have been found to have windows broken, no heating and no other facilities.

Another area which could be examined are the numbers on registers for certain polling stations. In Monaghan we did an examination of part of the county and did away with the polling stations for 80, 90 and 100 voters. It is not suitable to have a presiding officer catering for such small numbers and these areas have been lumped together so that from 1,000 people up are catered for at the one polling station.

This important measure enables disabled people to record their votes. The right to vote is a right that we should cherish especially when there are so many countries where people have not that right. I welcome the regulations and would ask the Minister to have a serious look at the new regulations in this Bill.

An Leass-Cheann Comhairle

I would remind Deputies who have offered to speak, Deputy Sheehan, Deputy Brady, Deputy Enright, Deputy Andrews and Deputy O'Brien who has just come in that by agreement the debates concludes at 1.15 p.m. to allow the Minister to conclude. If Deputies could bear that in mind I will try to get as many as possible in on the debate.

Mr. Sheehan

I welcome the Bill, which is a step in the right direction. This Bill is long overdue. It might be thought that this issue is unlikely to affect my constituency but it does because there are lightkeepers on the lighthouses off the coast who were denied the right to vote. I presume that under the new Bill they will be included in the register of postal voters. On several occasions these people applied for postal votes but they were turned down.

Fishermen leave for fishing grounds at 2 a.m. and do not return until 10.30 the following night. They have not been given an opportunity to vote for years. Seamen are away from home for three or four months at a time. They should be given similar facilities. Commercial travellers have told me they have not been able to vote for 20 years.

The new electoral legislation will need a lot of tightening up. There must be very careful scrutiny to make sure that there will not be abuses of the system as there were in the past. There must be proper control of postal voting in particular, the delivery of ballot papers, their posting and their collection. I welcome the provision for the inspection of polling stations to ensure that adequate facilities for disabled electors will be provided so that they can get in and our of polling stations, many of which in rural areas are old abandoned schoolhouses without any lighting except for candles at night. This is completely inadequate——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It has no bearing on postal voting.

Mr. Sheehan

It has a considerable bearing on our voting system and many other Deputies have referred to it. I know of an invalid who made his way to a polling station three years ago and applied for a ballot paper, but his wheelchair was too wide to go through the door, which was too narrow and he was refused a ballot paper by the returning officer and had to return home one and a half miles away. That was disgraceful and I hope provision will be made in the new legislation to force a presiding officer in such cases to take the ballot paper to the person outside the polling booth.

Seasonal workers who go to Britain for five or six months each year did not have their names taken off the register. I have been told that that is not so any more in certain areas. People who go away for seasonal work should have their names left on the register.

The motion is long overdue and I hope it will give us an excellent postal voting system for which there has been a growing demand for years.

Mr. G. Brady

I wish to make two main points. First of all, I welcome the motion. Would the Minister of State give consideration to making the entire process of voting compulsory? It might seem a rather radical suggestion but in recent elections, principally local elections, the percentage of those participating has been very small, in many cases representing only about 25 per cent of the electorate. Such behaviour leaves the entire system in disrepute. My suggestion may seem radical but I am sure the Minister is aware that in many European countries who value the democratic system as much as we — Luxembourg, Belgium and, I think, the German Federal Republic——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that this motion has to do with postal voting only.

Mr. G. Brady

I will develop my remarks and come to the postal voting. If postal voting is allowed right across the board there will have to be very strict supervision, particularly in regard to the determination of qualifiers. Otherwise it could be open to a degree of abuse not intended by the Minister. I refer specifically to people who will apply for postal votes but who are not characterised as disabled. That could give rise to an unfortunate development. Considering the absolute unworkability of the present postal voting system I would go so far as to say that those who do not exercise the franchise should be fined for not doing so. We would then have a more representative number of people participating. People who do not value their votes, whether they cast them personally or through the post, should be penalised. The ballot paper may be taken by a personal voter and put into the ballot box blank, but such a person will be registered. In other countries it has been shown that the postal system of voting gives a greater percentage of people participating than those who come to register for their votes. Certainly, it is a step in the right direction but I do not think it is curing the problem. I should like to make a strong plea for compulsory voting either by post or physical presence in a polling station.

My second point relates to the partially sighted. This is an in-between area where those who are partially sighted are not regarded as being disabled. However, they have a physical handicap which makes it very difficult for them to see the registers because of the poor quality of printing. I am sure the Minister will agree with that. It should be possible for such people to get information on the phone about their vote at election time. I should like to make a plea to the Minister to include the partially sighted under these regulations. People involved can be categorised and obtain proof from an opthalmic surgeon or optician who is in a position to present a report on the degree of anomaly in sight. I know of many cases of voters with poor sight who when they go to a polling booth find it impossible to cast a vote. It is just a hit and miss effort. Such people need guidance.

Mr. Enright

I have considerable reservations about the regulations. We should hasten slowly in regard to them. Like other Members I am anxious that everybody gets an opportunity to vote at election time but my reservations arise from what I saw in 1974. At that time the regulations were very confined. Those seeking a postal vote were obliged to have their application completed by a member of the Garda Síochána, a clergyman or an officer of a local authority or health board. Thousands of people breached the regulations and it is well known that some candidates abused the system. In some areas there was a 100 per cent poll although many of the people on the register had long gone to the next world. Other people on the register were in institutions, at sea or working in lighthouses. One man one vote is the criterion.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

One man one postal vote.

Mr. Enright

A person may arrange for ten people to vote and fill in the ballot paper for them. That is turning democracy upside down. There is a danger of that happening in many areas. One of the strengths in our democracy is that when a person goes to cast a vote representatives of political parties or independent candidates can object if it is felt there is something wrong. That is good but what I am concerned about is what may happen behind closed doors. A person who applies for a postal vote receives a ballot paper from the presiding officer but representatives of the candidates do not have a right to object. A person seeking the vote may be under age or have a vote elsewhere in the electoral area. Abuses have occurred in recent elections and they will continue to take place. The regulations under discussion will open the door to further abuses.

There are solutions to the problem. The Minister should consider systems that operate in other countries. Portable polling booths are used and those unable to travel to the regular polling booths are given the opportunity of casting their vote at them. Representatives of the candidates are made aware of those who have applied for this facility and can travel with the returning officer as he drives through the constituency with the portable booth. The police are also in attendance. I accept that there is some extra work involved in operating such a system but it would mean more fair play. It is better that the system is seen to operate correctly.

I accept the view expressed by Deputy Sheehan about commercial travellers. In this regard we should give consideration to having voting on Sundays.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is moving from the regulations before us.

Mr. Enright

We are considering introducing postal voting because so many people are away from home during the week but most people are at home on Sundays. If we had voting on a Sunday it would avoid the necessity for introducing postal voting. We must remember that people from rural areas travel to their towns for Mass or service on Sundays. Those people would be able to vote on their way home from religious services. If the Minister decides to proceed with postal voting I urge him to confine that concession to those who are ill or incapacitated. Applications for postal voting should be accompanied by a certificate from a doctor or a state registered nurse. That is essential and it is essential that representatives of candidates are given an opportunity to examine applications for postal votes. There is some benefit in the scheme proposed by the Minister but the suggestions I have put forward would minimise the amount of abuse. A portable polling booth and voting on Sundays are the answers to the problem.

Mr. D. Andrews

Since I was elected to this House I have been calling for Sunday voting. I know that I am straightaway out of order in saying this, but I feel very strongly about it. It escapes me how the will cannot be found to make a certain day voting day.

The old saw, "vote early and often", may now see death because of this wise move from the Government. We all agree with this worthy wisdom because it is tightening up a number of abuses which have existed since 1974, when postal voting was carried out in local elections for the first time. It was not carried out in the 1979 elections due to the intrusion of the European election. Administratively, logistically and physically it was not possible to conduct the postal ballot in those elections. Again, I may be slightly out of order about people being harassed at polling booths.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is a little more than slightly out of order.

Mr. Enright

That is what the Deputy is saying.

Mr. D. Andrews

People are harassed at polling booths on behalf of political parties by people handing out election literature. The day must soon come when political parties will get together in the interests of the economy of their electoral coffers and agree to abandon election literature and, with the co-operation of the local authority, set up individual sites to display the names of the candidates for the constituencies. This would obviate the waste involved in printing election literature. It is continuing disgrace and a mark against the main political parties that they should continue to spend such large amounts of money on election campaigning.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A passing reference, Deputy.

Mr. D. Andrews

That was a passing reference which will now cease. Deputy Gerard Brady in his very worthy speech made two points with one of which I agree and with the other I do not agree. I do not know if he is quite correct in saying that people in the countries which he mentioned are compulsorily required to vote. What happens, I believe, is that they are required to present themselves and register at the polling booth, but I do not think that they are compelled to vote. They can decide to take the ballot paper or not, but their presence is registered and they would not be penalised under the legislation. I would be concerned that any compulsion with regard to voting should be enshrined in law — compelling somebody in a democracy to do something which he or she may not wish to do. We are probably the most politically conscious nation in the world. One always smiles at hearing that an individual has not got a political opinion here. I do not think that such a person exists — we all have political opinions. At general election time, particularly, a high percentage of people vote. We can only sympathise with those who do not vote in their lack of patriotism or their lack of community participation. Inevitably, those who do not vote are the greatest whingers against society, who do all the decrying of what a bad nation, tax system or Government we have. Some have never voted since they got the franchise.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

You are spreading your wings again. Kindly confine yourself to postal voting.

Mr. D. Andrews

The compilation of the electoral register has left a lot to be desired over the years. A quite genuine elector can come to the polling booth and discover that he or she is not on the electoral register. That is a very serious deprivation of a civil liberty in any democracy. I do not believe that the person compiling the register deliberately left that name out for base motives, but that it was a bit of bureaucratic bumbledom. Much needs to be done with regard to compilation of the register, but things are improving in that regard. I should perhaps know the answer to my next question, but has the whole compilation of the election register become computerised?

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. F. O'Brien)

In some areas.

Mr. D. Andrews

It should become fully computerised.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I hate to say this, but you are making so many passing references that you would make a fine out-half.

Mr. D. Andrews

I would be a clean out-half, too, after last Saturday's efforts.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would ask you to stay with the postal vote, please.

Mr. D. Andrews

That is what I am talking about, Sir.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

You are not, Deputy. You are talking about the whole system.

Mr. D. Andrews

I am grateful to you for your patience and agree entirely with you. I am once more outside the ambit of the regulations in bringing up the question of accessibility so wisely brought up by Deputy Sheehan. There have been problems with voters in wheelchairs who, for example, in the town hall in Dún Laoghaire — now happily abandoned as a polling booth — were expected to negotiate about 30 steps. That again is an attack on the right of a person to vote. This regulation is giving the people the opportunity of expressing their views on a political party by means of postal voting, which is as it should be. However, if physically disabled people want to present themselves at a polling booth it should be made easy for them to express their democratic right at the ballot box.

Would it not be easy to make the location of polling booths more obvious? Polling booths should not be secreted in large housing estates, which is the case in my own constituency of Dún Laoghaire and, I am sure, many others. Again, I am grateful for the toleration and patience of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Keating and he must conclude at 1.15 p.m.

Mr. Keating

Briefly, I want to welcome the regulations. They will assist in underlining the right of people who unforunately suffer handicap or disadvantage to have full and equal participation in the voting process. For too long in this and other respects those people have been disadvantaged, also. It is right that the House should take some measure to ensure that people will now be able to vote and have the dignity that goes with that and the right to voice an opinion.

These draft regulations apply to local elections only. On previous occasions that obtained too. I am not sure that draft regulations of this nature were not introduced for general elections because there is a prevailing view in the House that somehow local elections are slightly less important and therefore we can take a chance on them, or because we simply have not got around to it. I would argue that the principle is identical for general elections and I hope it will be introduced.

The only area of concern which could arise in respect of these regulations is possible abuse, specifically personation which is a huge problem. In the local elections we are facing it will be a serious problem in certain areas in Dublin where it would be reasonable to expect that the vote will be quite low, perhaps as low as 30 or 40 per cent. Every possible precaution must be taken to ensure that advantage is not taken of people in these categories here, and that the general problem of personation will get a thorough examination to see whether we can do something about it. That is not easy in an open democracy, but it is a serious problem.

The Minister might consider whether it would be desirable to be a little more specific than is the position in regulation 4 (2) with regard to the need to satisfy the returning officer that somebody cannot go in person to the polling station to vote. Would it be more helpful for returning officers if they had a list of the kind of evidence which would be acceptable? We are talking about giving a returning officer the right to disenfranchise a person or rule somebody out. If the area of discretion afforded to the returning officer is very broad, there could be disagreements, tensions and arguments which could be avoided. I wonder whether specific criteria could be listed, for example, a medical certificate or a certificate from an employer. The returning officer could look down the list and say: "I am sorry but what you have given me does not accord with my list." This might prevent difficulties and awkwardness and it might be helpful to people who had gone to a great deal of trouble to get convoluted evidence which could not be sustained.

I am pleased to see that people whose circumstances of occupation, service or employment would normally rule them out will now be able to vote. That is very important because for many generations people in the Defence Forces, commercial travellers, people who were at sea, people in the prison service, and the Army and Garda in some cases on temporary duties, have been systematically excluded from the voting system. I always felt that was abhorrent. I hope the Minister will not just introduce these regulations but will make a special attempt to market this new system to those categories of people about whom it could be reasonably said that they had a tradition of enforced absenteeism if you like. We want people to know that the old system has changed and they are now entitled to vote. It is important that everybody should have an opportunity to vote.

It is not clear to me whether these regulations will cover people who happen to be in prison. I have a feeling they are not designed to do that. At some stage we should consider that. One of the disadvantages of a prison sentence is that you lose your entitlement to vote. I do not see any reason why people in prison should not be entitled to vote under these regulations. I am not clear whether that is the intention. Perhaps the Minister might take up that point.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. F. O'Brien)

I want to thank Deputies for the positive and constructive debate we have had on this motion. That is a clear indication that this motion is welcome. Deputy Molloy referred to the desirability of regularising the position regarding postal voting at elections. That was also raised by a number of other Deputies. This will be done in the forthcoming Bill which will provide for the registration of postal voters as part of the normal process of compiling the register of electors each year and the issue of postal ballot papers to postal voters at all elections and referenda. It is our intention to bring forward this Bill as soon as possible. This debate comes at a very opportune time and I can assure Deputies that the various comments and suggestions made will be taken fully into account in the Bill. We want to have the Bill ready for the 1986 register. There is a degree of urgency about bringing it in.

Quite a number of points were raised by various speakers. I welcome Deputy Molloy's support and that of other Deputies for the measure we have introduced to improve the security of the postal voting system. I hope events will confirm the view that these measures will close off most of the loopholes which existed apparently in 1974. There were different schools of thought about that. I believe we have struck a balance here. This is very important because we could go overboard with regulations and, at the end of the day, find that we were depriving people to whom we wanted to give votes of the right to vote.

Deputy Molloy asked about the criteria which the returning officers will use in adjudicating on applications for postal votes. There are two elements here. First, the returning officer will have to be satisfied that the application is valid. This will involve checking that the form has been completed properly and that the applicant is registered in the register of electors and the reason for the inability to vote. Presiding officers have commonsense in abundance and they will have to use their commonsense. I have no doubt they will. If an application is defective it will be ruled invalid and the applicant will be notified accordingly.

Secondly, there is the discretionary element. The regulation provides that the returning officer must be satisfied as to the ability of an applicant to vote in person. This means he does not have to accept an application on its face value and that he can reject it where he is not satisfied. To take an example mentioned by Deputy Molloy, I would not see an application from a self-employed person succeeding unless he could satisfy the returning officer that the nature of his occupation was such as to make it unlikely that he could vote in person by reason of regular absence from home, or business, or some other substantial reason. Neither would I see an employee getting a postal vote unless the nature of the job warranted it. Deputy O'Rourke mentioned this as well. Polling booths are open for 12 hours a day and most people are afforded an opportunity to vote. There are a number of self-employed people who, by virtue of the nature of their business, travel around the country and at times must be away from their place of residence, which is only reasonable and acceptable.

Deputies Molloy, Dowling and others expressed concern that people should avail of the postal voting facility. I agree with that sentiment. I shall be taking steps to ensure that the availability of the facility will be well publicised. All the details have not yet been finalised. In general terms what we have in mind is a major publicity campaign involving the press, radio and television, advertising at national level in the period immediately after Easter, as well as an appropriate level of publicity to be undertaken locally by individual returning officers. We shall also be issuing press statements and availing of any other opportunity for publicity that may arise. I am sure that individual public representatives will lend a hand in ensuring that this postal voting facility is brought to the attention of appropriate people in their constituencies. I want to assure the House that it will be well publicised. I hope that will have the desired effect of ensuring that people who heretofore were unable to vote, for whatever reason, will be able to avail of this opportunity.

Another question raised by many Deputies was why commissioners for oaths were included as well as peace commissioners as signatories or witnesses to the statutory declarations. The answer is that both are qualified to witness statutory declarations. It will be a matter for individual applicants to decide which they will use. Our aim is to afford as great as possible a choice to applicants. Deputy Cosgrave asked why would the Garda not be able to witness such declarations as well. They are not persons who can witness statutory declarations and for that reason they have not been included.

A number of Deputies raised a related question with which I shall deal now. They mentioned the possibility of applications being made on behalf of voters who were so physically incapacitated as not to be able to apply themselves, their ballot paper being marked by somebody else. We cannot entirely rule out this possibility. A returning officer will have to be satisfied that the application has been signed by the applicant and, if he has any doubts in this matter, he can make further inquiries. If he feels there is something wrong he can refer the application to the Garda for investigation, and there are severe penalties for abuse of that facility.

Deputy Dowling asked a question with regard to voting on the part of persons working abroad. Briefly the position is that persons working and resident abroad should not be on the register of electors and the question of postal voting or otherwise should not then arise. Of course there could be people working abroad on a seasonal basis or people who have moved abroad recently and whose names are still on the register. Obviously such people can apply to vote by post. There is no provision for the sending of ballot papers abroad. They will be sent to the address at which a voter is registered which effectively rules out most of those people.

Deputy Owen and others asked about the circumstances applying to people absent on holiday. They were included for the 1974 elections but they are now being excluded. I must point out that it is not intended that the postal voting system will accommodate people absent from home on a casual basis, whether on business or on holiday. This will be clarified with the introduction of the Bill which will bring the registration of postal voters back into the period of compilation of the draft register. Even now, when the application period is limited to April, it would be inappropriate that certain people who have already made holiday arrangements for June should be accommodated while others who have not made arrangements could find themselves not so entitled. That would be giving people who had made earlier arrangements a privilege which would not constitute a satisfactory arrangement. Staff employed by returning officers were also included for the 1974 elections but will now be excluded. Those two categories are caught by early application whereas in 1974 one could apply a few weeks beforehand when it was easy to take on board people who were going on holiday, or those assisting returning officers. For example, a number of staff would not know by early April whether they were being employed by returning officers, which would mean that some would be eligible and some ineligible. In such circumstances it is better to exclude them all. I might point out that the categories being catered for under the proposed regulations are those envisaged by the working party on the register of electors, by Members of this House.

Deputy Dowling and others mentioned the need to accommodate disabled persons who wished to vote in person at polling stations. I am in total agreement with this sentiment. My Department always draw the attention of returning officers to this matter at election time. A number of Deputies contended that we should be looking at polling booths, particularly with regard to modern community developments, to ensure that such people are facilitated. As well as faciliating disabled persons with a postal vote we should allow them live as full a life as possible, allowing them to exercise their right to vote within the confines of polling booths. We are making every effort to do so.

A number of Deputies raised the question of the register for postal voters. This is provided for in the regulations. The returning officer will be required to prepare a supplementary postal voters' list, making it available for inspection in his office. He will also be required to supply, on request, to each candidate nominated for election in each local election area a copy of the list for that area, which is important.

Deputy Gerard Brady raised the question of partially sighted persons, suggesting that they be entitled to a postal vote as well. I should say that existing legislation enables persons with visual problems to be assisted by a companion or a presiding officer at polling stations. Therefore there are adequate facilities for the partially sighted, giving them the protection of the polling booth, affording them the right to exercise their wish to attend and vote personally.

I thank the House for their co-operation and contributions on this motion. I think it constitutes the right thing to do.

We should always examine ways of enabling as many people as possible to vote. After all, we are democrats and it is the feeling of this House — perhaps with the exception of one or two Members — that what we are doing is correct. Neither should we be too preoccupied with abuses. Rather should we ensure that they are minimised. Our main goal should be to ensure that as many people as possible can vote.

Question put and agreed to.

Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.