Vol. 356 No. 8
asked the Minister for Finance if he will give details of the present-day value of the following pre-decimal notes and coinage since decimalisation: pound note, ten shilling note, half crown, shilling, sixpence and three pence; and if he is satisfied with the present range of denominations.
6.
asked the Minister for Finance if he will give details of the extent of forged currency in circulation; and if his Department has been informed of any such forgeries in recent years.
7.
asked the Minister for Finance if he will give details of when Ireland's first coinage was struck; and if he will consider the provision of a new set of Irish coinage.
8.
asked the Minister for Finance if he has any plans to introduce another denomination of notes or coinage in 1985.
9.
asked the Minister for Finance if he will outline his Department's policy regarding the striking of commemorative coins and medals; if he will detail the instances that such strikings took place; and his future plans in this regard.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 together.
On a point of order——
I can assure the Deputy that the reply I propose to give is quite comprehensive.
On a point of order, while I am not for a moment suggesting that the Minister is being unco-operative in any way in grouping Questions Nos. 5 to 9 which are totally different——
Has the Deputy a point of order?
I certainly have a point of order. I should like to call on the judgment of the Chair for this kind of practice. Is it in order to do this without giving any notice to the person who has tabled a question? I think it is most unfair.
The Chair has made it perfectly clear on numerous occasions, both in the recent past and some time ago, that the Chair has no control over or function as to whether questions are answered singly or are taken together.
On a point of clarification, does this mean there will be a complete blanket on supplementary questions when five questions are taken together?
We will deal with that when we come to it.
On a point of order when the Minister, as has been the practice, prefaces his reply by saying, "With your permission——"
That is a matter of pure politeness.
If the Chair will address himself to the questions he will see that they are in no way inter-related as regards the topic of each question. If the Chair has any function, he should withhold his permission for dealing with all of these questions in one reply.
I wish we would all act as adults. I want to make it clear that the Chair has no control over or function as to how questions are answered, whether they are answered individually or a number taken together. Secondly, the practice of saying, "With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle" has been discontinued by most Ministers. I understand my predecessor sent a circular to each Minister informing them that his consent was not necessary.
In order to ensure that this kind of issue will not obstruct Question Time, will the Chair communicate with Ministers and convey to them the view of the Chair opposing this kind of thing — I assume the Chair is not in favour of this kind of practice because it will cause problems every time it is done. Surely the Chair has a function in that area?
The Chair has no such function.
Really? It seems extraordinary that the standing of this House can be undermined by Ministers while the Chair has no function in the matter.
On a point of order——
Order, Minister. The Chair, as some people appreciate, has a difficult function to perform here. However, I have no doubt that if the Chair were to start sending communications to Deputies advising them on how to do this and that, he would have not alone a difficult task but an impossible one and I do not intend to embark on it.
On a point of order, I am asking for the guidance of the Chair——
I am not here for giving guidance. I refer the Deputy to the book of Standing Orders.
The questions deal with matters such as forged currency, commemorative coins and medals and they are being answered under the same heading.
I was in the Library when I saw that these questions were being taken together. I am glad to say I have a certificate of fitness because I sprinted up those steps——
What is being done is not fair.
I call on the Minister to answer Question No. 5.
Before I answer that question I wish to make a point of order. Deputy O'Kennedy has used up three minutes of the time of this House which should have been devoted to answering Deputy Brady's questions. In the course of doing that, he made an allegation against me.
I have called the Minister to answer Question No. 5. If the Minister is going to make a personal explanation he will have to get the consent of the Chair in the ordinary way.
I will now proceed to use Question Time to answer questions rather than the kind of pantomime the gentlemen on the other side are indulging in.
Get on with it.
The present day values of the pre-decimal notes and coins would be as follows: £1 note, 17p; 10 shilling note, 8½p; half crown, 2p; shilling, 1p; sixpence, ½p; threepence, ¼p; I consider that the present range of denominations of coins and legal tender notes is adequate for transaction purposes and will be further enhanced by the proposed 20p coin.
I have no information on the circulation of forged currency but I am satisfied that it is insignificant. The Central Bank have informed me that they are not aware of any cases involving forged coins in recent years. In the case of legal tender notes Garda vigilance has resulted in seizures of forged £5 and £10 notes in the past two years together with the relevant printing materials.
The first coinage struck after the establishment of the State was in 1928.
And the rest of them too.
The designs were recommended by a committee chaired by W.B. Yeats, following an international design competition. Further details will be found in the publication, Coinage of Saorstát Éireann 1928, published by the Stationery Office, a copy of which is available in the Oireachtas Library.
The 1928 coinage comprised eight coins, viz, farthing, halfpenny, penny, threepence, six pence, shilling, two shilling and half-crown. The farthing and halfpenny were withdrawn in 1969 and the half-crown in 1970. On the changeover to a decimal systems in February 1971 the penny, three pence and sixpence were withdrawn. The current ½p, 1p and 2p coins were introduced and the shilling and two shilling coins became the 5p and 10p respectively. A 50p coin was also introduced in place of the ten shilling note. With regard to the provision of a new set of coinage——
The sooner the better.
——I assume the Deputy has in mind a redesign. I have no immediate plans in this regard but the matter is being kept under review.
I referred earlier to the proposed 20p. coin. I announced on 31 August last that the Government had approved in principle the introduction of this coin, subject to the approval of the Dáil and Seanad. I am arranging to have a copy of this announcement placed in the Library. Work is proceeding on the preparations for this issue and I will be bringing proposals before the House in due course. I hope it will be possible to issue this coin before the end of the year. I have no immediate plans for the issue of other new coins or notes.
Neither I nor the Central Bank have any function in regard to the provision of medals. As regards commemorative coins, it has been long-standing policy to provide coins primarily for domestic purposes. A special silver ten shilling coin was issued in 1966 on the fiftieth anniversary of the Easter Rising. Should another suitable occasion arise the striking of a commemorative coin would be considered on its merits.
In fairness to Deputy Brady——
I am calling on Deputy Brady and Deputy O'Kennedy might show his respect by allowing him to ask a supplementary question.
How could Deputy Brady possibly take on board all that detail? The Deputy is clearly interested in each question and the Minister has lumped them all together.
I am calling Deputy Brady.
They are a perfectly logical set of questions.
I will do my best to deal with each of the five questions. I do regard this, unintentionally on the Minister's part, as an absolutely derisory reply to so many questions. I hope this practice will change. Given the cumulative factor of inflation, £1 down to 17p. since decimalisation, there is an urgent need to review the present range of denominations. Would the Minister consider the introduction of a £2 note or a £1 coin? From the Minister's reply it is apparent that the present copper coinage has virtually no value.
It is very difficult to ask supplementaries on so many questions but what safeguards operate in the Department to combat counterfeiting or forgery, given the present upsurge in crime? We all know of instances of forgeries that have taken place. In respect of coinage and notes, will the Minister tell the House if any of this currency is printed or minted in this country? What is the practice in that regard? Will the Minister not agree that it is long overdue for the Department to commission the designing of a new range of currency? The Minister referred to the designs recommended by the committee chaired by the poet W. B. Yeats. Surely the Minister will agree that this would afford an ideal opportunity for young artists and sculptors to participate in such a competition?
The Minister referred to the changeover during decimalisation from the original farmyard coins to Celtic designs. I suggest that that was a compromise scheme between two sets of coins which did not even blend. On those grounds would the Minister consider having a new set of coins commissioned? It is apparent from the Minister's reply that there is no commitment to the most important area of involving the Central Bank and the Department of Finance, except in one instance in 1966 for the Pearse commemorative coin. Surely the Minister would see that it would be an ideal opportunity to collect extra revenue to engage in that practice, as happens in many other nations. An ideal opportunity was offered to us last year when President Ronald Reagan visited Ireland. Would the Minister consider having an urgent study carried out to re-evaluate the usage of our coins, the duration our paper money stands, with a view to providing a whole new range of coins?
It is not standing; it is nearly walking off by itself.
I appreciate the Chair's co-operation on these very lengthy supplementaries but I have many more questions to ask.
As I said in my reply, I hope we will introduce a 20p coin and issue it before the end of the year. I will have to come before the House with the necessary measures to bring that about. Consultations on the design of the coin between the Arts Council and the Central Bank are in progress and I hope we will come to a decision on that in the near future. I do not intend to issue a £1 coin and, while I am sure there will not be unanimity on the matter, I would refer Deputies to the experience of our near neighbour in the issue of a £1 coin which, as far as I can gather, has not proved to be either very successful or welcome on any large scale by the citizens. Not only is it small but it is heavy, and there is a difficulty in that regard. I have no evidence that there is a need to issue a £2 note as suggested by the Deputy. There is an apparent difficulty in relation to the £1 note which gets grubby very quickly. That is, I am told, because of heavy use rather than because of the lack of quality in the note. Recently Members of the House will have seen that £1 notes seem to be grubbier than they normally tended to be. The reason was that for a time there was an interruption in the flow of the £1 notes from our note printing unit.
In relation to combating counterfeit moneys and forgeries, we have to rely on the vigilance of the banks, financial institutions and the ordinary public to bring apparent cases of forgery to the notice of the authorities. We have been quite successful over the last few years in detecting forgeries and in preventing widespread circulation of forged notes.
What the Deputy was saying about the design of our coinage is a matter that is clearly open to debate and I am quite certain that if we were to have a redesign of the whole range of coinage there would be disagreement about whatever solution might be adopted because it is a matter of individual judgment as to whether or not people like the look of the new coin. I remember on one occasion, when new stamps were introduced bringing in the Celtic animal motifs, there was curious correspondence in the newspapers about the apparent obscenity of putting on stamps animals that seemed to be eating their own tails. We know where the motifs came from.
The Minister is reducing it to a laugh.
I am not.
The point I am making is that I am not convinced that there is a need for a redesign of the coinage.
Our coinage is hybrid.
In the event that we reexamine the coinage I would consider that there is an argument for the reduction of the weight of our coins. We should consider the use of lighter alloys for making coins because our coinage is, as the Deputy would agree, rather heavy when compared to the coinage used in most of the other European countries.
I do not think that it is. I prefer it to be reasonably heavy.
In relation to the issue of commemorative coins, the Deputy will be aware that every year. I receive a number of proposals for the issue of coins or medallions in various precious metals, normally with the suggestion that a fee or royalty would be paid to the State and that the State would get a commission from the issue of these. I have examined a number of these proposals and I have never been pursuaded that they would be as financially interesting to the State as is often pretended nor am I convinced that involvement in that type of business——
This is an extraordinary performance.
——would necessarily redound to the advantage of the State.
I have a few questions arising from the Minister's omnibus reply. In regard to the 20p coin which the Minister says is forthcoming before the end of this year, what element of competition has the Minister built into the design of this coin? Secondly, will the Minister assure the House, even now, that at the very least the general pattern and dimensions of the British 20p coin will not be reproduced here in a way that is sadly familiar to us? Thirdly, would the Minister agree that the Irish coinage, in the way in which Deputy Brady, suggested, in general is far too heavy by reference to its value, when one considers, to take an example, that the German 5 mark piece is about the same size as an Irish 10p but that it takes 16 tenpences to buy a German 5 mark piece?
Would the Minister agree — to concede a point to Deputy Brady — that the total Irish coinage has degenerated and become barbarised since 1928 and now represents a dog's breakfast to which the new 20p coin will only add a further ingredient? Even though I heard the Minister say that he had examined the proposals for commemorative coins, would the Minister examine the experience of some perfectly respectable country, not banana Republics, but a country such as Austria which regularly goes in for the issue of commemorative coins with a high collectors' pay-off for the State, and say whether the single experience we had in 1966 is perhaps a bad one to go by — there was no great demand for the coin because it was extremely ugly, although copies are now worth about £15? Would the Minister be willing, since this is not a political matter but an aesthetic matter, to see a small deputation of Deputies and Senators who are interested in this question to thrash it out with him quietly in his room?
The first point in relation to the 20p coin is that we have not provided for a competition. I have taken the step of consulting the Arts Council on the design of the coin. It is perfectly appropriate that we should do that and that is one of the reasons why we have an Arts Council.
I can assure Deputy Kelly that the Irish 20p coin will not bear any close resemblance to the UK 20p coin nor do I see any reason why it should. I agree with Deputy Kelly in his feeling that our coinage is too heavy, although I have the impression that that is not the general view of the House. I am not considering a redesign of the coinage at the moment but in the event that we consider a redesign of the coinage I would take the point that we should consider using a lighter alloy to produce lighter coins. I come to the point which Deputy Kelly had made for me. He, with his usual facility of language, claims that our coinage has degenerated and been barbarised since — I have forgotten the date——
Since decimalisation.
It is a matter of taste. I would not agree for a moment that that is the case.
They are too light and too small.
I accept the concern expressed by Deputy Kelly about the issue of special coins, collectors pieces and so on. Over the last two years I have examined a number of proposals to issue coins, medals, tokens or whatever of that kind and I have not been convinced that the case would be, as is usually claimed by the promoters, that they would become very popular collectors pieces and that there would be a lot of money for the State. I am not alone in having drawn that conclusion because I know that a number of those proposals or very similar proposals were made to my predecessors.
In relation to the last request by Deputy Kelly I can assure the House that I am an extremely approachable person and if Deputy Kelly and any other colleagues wish to come to see me to speak about this I will be only too happy to see them on condition that, if the group that Deputy Kelly brings together consists of more than one party, we will not have the same kind of farcial intervention from the other side of the House that we had earlier on today or yesterday in relation to an all-party deputation.
I am disappointed at the tenor of the Ministers' reply. Quite obviously the Minister has not been informed correctly about the designs that are available to be restruck—
Has the Deputy a question?
I might refer the Minister to the Morbiducci patterns which lie across in the Museum not too far away. Is the Minister aware that the Central Bank have taken some of the best designs — for instance, the Ivan Maestrovic design of 1992 which they use on their seal. Would the Minister be able to make these designs available for public exhibition? At the moment they are wrapped up in paper in the National Museum.
He would have to find his way through the dereliction of which the National Museum consists at the moment.
I know this will infuriate the Deputy, but it seems to be a matter for another Minister.
My question is specifically addressed to the Minister for Finance. We will have the honour of having the Minister opening a numismatic fair later this month.
I am sorry but the last question is a matter for another Minister, not for me. I might tempt Providence and say that I am aware of the keen interest the Deputy has in numismatics and that is why I have taken these questions together.
