Deputy Kenny and Deputy De Rossa and Deputies Flynn, P. Gallagher, Coughlan, Mac-Sharry, M. Brennan, Kitt, N. Treacy, Molloy, Geoghegan-Quinn, F. Fahey, Calleary, Morley, D. Gallagher, Conaghan, Leyden and Doherty have been given permission to put Private Notice Questions to the Minister for Justice. The Chair wishes to know if the Minister proposes to answer the questions separately or together.
Private Notice Question. - Attacks on the Elderly.
Limerick East): Together.
Will Deputy Kenny please read his question?
I wish to ask the Minister for Justice if he will outline clearly the specific measures that are being taken to prevent and apprehend those responsible for the continuing attacks on the elderly in the west of Ireland which have caused widespread fear and are a source of deep and grave concern to the community at large.
Will Deputy De Rossa please read his question?
I wish to ask the Minister for Justice if, in view of the serious public concern arising from continuing attacks on the elderly in many parts of the country, particularly in the west, he will indicate the measures the Government intend to take to ensure that elderly people are protected from attacks and robberies of this type; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Will Deputy Flynn please read the question in his name and in the names of his colleagues?
I wish to ask the Minister for Justice if he is aware of the deep and widespread anxiety that exists in the west of Ireland following the recent spate of attacks on elderly people; and if he will make a statement on the matter in which his Department and the Garda intend to deal with this critical situation.
, Limerick East): At the outset I wish to reiterate what I said in the statement I made on this matter yesterday, that is, that I view these latest attacks on elderly people with great concern. All of us have been shocked at the incident at the weekend involving the burning down of the home of a brother and sister in Mayo. I wish to extend my sympathy to the people involved on the ordeal they have suffered.
People may say that sympathy alone is not enough in the present situation and they would be right. More than that is needed and much more is being done. There is every reason to hope that what is being done will achieve results quickly. It goes without saying that the Garda are determined to bring the perpetrators of these crimes to justice. They believe they know the identity of some of those involved in a number of recent attacks and they are following a definite line of inquiry. They also have information relating to the makes and registration numbers of the vehicles suspected of being involved in some of the crimes. For obvious reasons I cannot say more about that at present except that I am satisfied everything possible is being done by the Garda to detect and apprehend those responsible and to bring them to justice.
I believe the House is entitled to some factual information about what is happening on the ground. For the past two weeks a special unit has been operating in the Galway area under a detective inspector from the Technical Bureau. This unit has been assisting local gardaí in co-ordinating their efforts to locate these criminals. Yesterday another special detective unit was dispatched to Sligo to perform similar functions there. This morning a deputy commissioner of the Garda Síochána who is in overall charge of the investigations held a special conference with local divisional chief superintendents to review Garda strategy. I understand immediate steps are being taken to intensify Garda efforts and that additional manpower is being devoted to the investigation by drafting in gardaí from neighbouring divisions and also by redeploying existing resources in the areas affected.
The Garda are also carrying out an urgent reappraisal of preventive measures to improve protection for elderly people who are living in isolated areas and who may be at risk. In this regard, the community alert project sponsored by Muintir na Tire is being assessed. The Garda have already been working in close co-operation with local community groups and have been advising those groups and individuals on security measures. The evidence available suggests that the advice given to people not to keep large sums of money in their homes is having an effect, although of course I cannot say if it had any relevance to the fact that in the most recent attacks very little cash appears to have been stolen.
Arising out of reports of certain statements by some Opposition Deputies, particularly Deputy Woods in Fianna Fáil, I want to make it quite clear to the House that I regard the investigation of those crimes as a matter for the Garda Síochána. I have every confidence that a solution to the problems is within the competence of the force. I do not believe there is any role the Army can usefully play at this stage. For example, there is no evidence to suggest that arms or military-style tactics are being used by the criminals or that there is a dimension to it that requires military intervention.
The Deputy suggested that a ground-to-air surveillance system should be set up and that Knock airport should be used as part of the system to detect the thugs who are terrorising elderly, defenceless people. Practically all the attacks have taken place during the hours of darkness and obviously ground-to-air surveillance could not operate during those hours. The Deputy also called for the re-establishment of the divisional task force. Every time there is some outrage this proposition is brought forward, despite the fact that on more than one occasion I have dealt comprehensively with the reasons the commissioner decided to reorganise these units and if anyone wishes to check, I would refer in particular to a statement I made in the House on 24 January 1984. I am informed by the Garda authorities that those units were very wasteful of scarce Garda resources, that they were structured in such a way as to create serious problems of accountability for their activities and it is widely acknowledged in the local managerial structures of the force that the personnel involved as reorganised in the normal Garda command structure are now much more effective in tackling crime. To be specific, these views are shared by the overwhelming majority, if not all, the Garda divisional officers throughout the force, those who have been appointed by the Government of the day to be primarily responsible for the local deployment of resources for the prevention and detection of crime.
At the risk of repeating myself, let me recall that the task force were set up and equipped and operated in a way which was then considered to be the most effective way of dealing with the special threats posed by armed mobile terrorists operating in military style. There is no suggestion that these features are present in the case we are dealing with here.
Deputy Woods also referred to overtime restrictions and the closing of rural stations. The simple but central fact is that financial considerations are not, and are not being allowed to restrict in any way the effectiveness of the Garda operations in relation to these crimes. I want that to be clearly understood. It is also untrue to say that rural stations are being closed. The Deputy is under a misapprehension because it is not just a matter of his being wrong in suggesting that stations are being closed in rural Ireland; in fact no rural station has been closed for years past, certainly not since I became Minister or over the last decade.
Finally, I think it is important to say that the operational control of the Garda Síochána is vested in the commissioner of the force and that while I am glad to answer the House for the exercise of my functions, I could not agree to be pushed, for reasons of understandable concern for serious crime or otherwise, into improper and potentially very damaging interference with the functions of the commissioner. The problem will, I have no doubt, be solved and the Garda are in the process of solving it.
I am glad to hear the Minister say there will be no further closure of rural stations. Would he give the House an assurance that where possible gardaí will be resident on a full time basis in their appointed areas? What are his comments in relation to the completion of the scheme for the proper equipping of the Garda from a mobility and communications point of view? In relation to the experiments at present being carried out in centralised policing in south Mayo where crimes as serious as murder have been committed, would he ask that this be reviewed with a view to its termination? Would he further encourage the community at large to participate in the passing of information to the Garda in relation to strange activities? Would he comment on the allegations that the response in some of these areas has been to set up road blocks where everybody has been put under the eye of the law?
(Limerick East): The Deputy welcomed the fact that there would be no further closure of Garda stations, but what I said was that since I became Minister no rural Garda station had been closed and my information is that none was closed during the term of office of the previous administration either. It is over ten years since a Garda station in rural Ireland was closed.
They are only open for an hour a day.
(Limerick East): The Deputy asked if it was policy that gardaí be resident in their functional areas. Of course it is, but obviously there is a difficulty in imposing that policy because while one can require a garda to be present while on duty, there is no power I know of which can be imposed on a garda's wife and family to be resident in a particular place. I agree with the sentiments of what the Deputy said.
On the question of Garda communications and equipment, the Garda communications and radio networks will be in operation within a number of weeks in all rural areas and within the next couple of weeks the contract will be placed for the Garda network for the greater Dublin area. That is well on target and there is no problem with either finance or contracting in that area.
The Deputy also referred to the pilot scheme of rural policing in his constituency and county. That pilot scheme is being carried on in two parts of the country, Mayo and Kilkenny, and when the period of pilot study is over it will be assessed. I have no plans at the moment to make it a permanent part of policing. I think the pilot scheme should be let run for another while and then we will be in a better position to calmly evaluate its effectiveness or otherwise.
I would like to encourage the public to provide further information to the Garda Síochána. My understanding is that there is good co-operation at present that the public, like everybody here, are horrified at these cowardly attacks on the old people in the west and that they are coming forward with information when they have it. As I indicated in my reply, a good deal of accurate information has come to the Garda already.
I am not able to comment on the last point the Deputy raised concerning road blocks. It appears that a road block system is one way of attempting to deal with mobile criminals travelling in vans or cars. I would refute any suggestion that this is the only Garda response. I have already referred to a series of responses they are making in my reply.
Would the Minister agree that part of the problem is the isolation of the people concerned and that one way of overcoming this problem would be the provision of a telephone at a reasonable cost to these people? This would enable them to have alarms linked up to Garda stations. Is there any proposal to reduce the exorbitant cost of telephone connections to people living in isolated areas?
(Limerick East): The isolation of old people living alone certainly is a factor. The community alert scheme being sponsored by Muintir na Tíre is a good scheme and the Garda are evaluating it to see what they can do to extend it further. I understand that part of the suggestions being made by the people organising that scheme is that some ready system of alarm would be available for old people. In my view, the best system of alarm would be where neighbours are aware of the risk to old people in their community, that they would keep an eye open for them and report to the Garda any strangers in the area. The information available to me suggests that strangers coming into the area, possibly with locals to pinpoint certain houses, are the source of the problem.
The Minister's response is very disappointing and amounts to no more than saying that a few meetings are being held. I would like to ask him if he would indicate when these types of attacks started and how many recorded incidents he has over the past year or two. As far as the community are concerned, nothing has been done and the Garda have failed to contain these vicious attacks by gangsters. I would like the Minister to comment on words attributed to Superintendent Kennedy of Ballina and reported in the national press today. He said these were gangs of itinerant traders using high powered transport and who were directed by godfathers on both sides of the Border. Is it true that the Garda, because of recent cutbacks, have lifted the checkpoints on the Border and that we are solely dependent on mobile partols now?
(Limerick East): There is a mixture of comment and assertion there rather than questions. As I outlined in my reply, a number of particular steps have been taken. A special force has been put into Galway and Sligo. A deputy commissioner has gone down to take charge of the investigation.
When?
(Limerick-East): Gardaí are being redeployed not only within the subdivisional district into the areas most affected, but also from the other subdivisions. On the question of the particular statement, I have not seen it and I am not prepared to comment on it. It is appropriate to inform the House that the RUC are co-operating with the Garda in this investigation. There has been no reduction in security along the Border and, for a variety of reasons, security has to be maintained there.
Is the Minister aware that a number of those involved in the attacks which took place in Donegal went through Garda checkpoints and that Garda morale is very low because they did not get back-up? Is the Minister for Justice considering providing a back-up service by requesting the Minister for Defence to let the Army get involved? Is the Minister aware that over the last four months there have been 35 such attacks in County Donegal? Does he accept the reply he gave me last Thursday that while attacks of this nature would always have to be regarded as serious, he understood that in only one case was physical injury caused to an elderly person? Is the Minister suggesting in that reply and his statement here today that the other 34 attacks were not serious?
Does the Minister accept that there are people in my county who were held at knifepoint for hours, who had blankets held over their heads and that they were kicked around the house in order to ascertain if money was available? Does the Minister accept that when money is not available now because the people have lodged their money with the banks and other financial institutions, the attacks are becoming more vicious? Could the Minister tell us what has happened to the task force which was allegedly sent to Sligo around Christmas to try to curb the vicious attacks in County Donegal and the north-western region?
(Limerick East): This is the second spate of attacks in the west. When the first spate of attacks occurred, a task force was put in, the crimes were investigated and many people were arrested, charged and brought before the courts. In the first series of attacks the type of attack was different from the type of attacks experienced over the weekend. Quite a number of people were murdered in the autumn in various places from Tipperary, through Galway to Donegal and that was dealt with on that occasion.
I share the concern of Deputy Gallagher but at the moment there is no information to suggest that there is any military type involvement in the people who are perpetrating these attacks and it would not be an appropriate response to use the Army. The Garda have the resources at their disposal, with the help and co-operation of the local community to deal with the cowardly thugs who are perpetrating these attacks, whatever side of the Border they come from.
There is no success rate.
Do the Garda or the Minister subscribe to the theory that there is a small group involved in these attacks, that they are living in the Six County area, in the Enniskillen area I understand, and that these people have been carrying out these raids on a regular basis during the last few months with the aid of locally based accomplices? Will the Minister state whether or not that is the position because old people throughout the west are living in fear thinking that every house will be attacked? Can the Minister offer any comment to reassure elderly people living alone that positive action is being taken so that these people who, it seems, are known, will be hauled in and brought before the courts? Will the Minister give an assurance, and contradict what has been said by a representative of the prison officers this morning that if these people are arrested and put into jail it will not result in another group of people being released? Is it true that our jails are packed to the doors, that there is no room for the criminals and there there is a general reluctance on the part of the Garda to arrest and prosecute the people on the basis that people are being given jail sentences and are being released after a few days? There is an air of disquiet throughout the country. We owe it to the elderly to give them an assurance that the State is concerned and is taking positive action. Will the Minister offer some hope to the elderly people in the west other than the bland comments and ineffective action which has been taken up to now?
(Limerick East): I assure the House that the full resources of the Garda will be used to track down these cowardly thugs who have attacked old people. It is also necessary for the community to get involved in the protection of the old people who live amongst them. On the theory of who perpetrates these crimes with the aid of local people, at this point in the investigation I am not prepared to comment on Deputy Molloy's suggestion. There is obviously a problem in prisons at the moment but I inherited that problem from the previous administration who are now in opposition. At present there are over 1,700 people in prison. When I came into Government and became a Minister there was accommodation for 1,230 prisoners. There are an extra 500 people in prison but we still have a serious accommodation problem. As far as I can see the Garda are not reluctant to prosecute because of this. One of the problems is that the Garda have been so successful in bringing people before the courts and getting them convicted that there are an enormous number of people coming through the courts who have been convicted and sent to prison, especially since 1 January last.
May I ask the Minister——
I cannot allow more than one question to each Deputy. I am trying to be fair. Deputy Denis Gallagher wishes to ask a question.
In view of the fact that old people living in remote areas are shattered by the violence now being demonstrated in the recent wave of break-ins, would the Minister as a matter of urgency arrange with the Garda Commissioner to have a greater number of gardaí allocated to rural areas on a permanent basis? Will the Minister examine the position in relation to the possibility of re-opening many of the Garda stations that have been closed in the past?
(Limerick East): The deployment of the 11,400 gardaí which we have at the moment is a matter for the Commissioner. I am not prepared to give commitments because it is up to the Commissioner to deploy his force as he sees fit to the best effect to preserve peace in the community.
Would the Minister feel that, in the circumstances, he should declare a state of emergency in the western region? The Minister made a statement saying that sympathy is not enough. I agree with him, but what action is he taking? He is not taking any real action and public relations is not a substitute for action on the ground. The Minister stated that he had set up special forces in Galway and Sligo. Will the Minister now set up special forces in Mayo, Roscommon, Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim and all those areas, because the members of the force on the ground are not being given the support of the Minister in their fight against crime particularly in their fight against crime against the elderly? Overtime is being blocked and the Garda are not being given any encouragement to carry on their jobs because of cutbacks in the Department of Justice.
I am sorry Deputy, I cannot allow long speeches.
The attacks are a direct result of Government inactivity and Government cutbacks over the last two years. The criminal is being give a free rein.
Deputy Leyden is being both unreasonable and unfair. There are a lot of supplementary questions. I have allowed each Deputy one question but I cannot allow a speech.
If the Chair, realised the feeling among the elderly in my constituency where they are now bolting their doors at night because of fear of criminals walking the land——
(Interruptions.)
The Deputy will have to make his point in another way.
——without being stopped or brought in.
I must ask Deputy Leyden to resume his seat.
Why do they not take action and bring them before the courts?
I must ask the Deputy to resume his seat.
The situation is very grave in the west and this is the only opportunity we have of voicing our concern for our constituents.
I am bound by the rules of the House. The Order of Business, please.
Before we leave that subject——
(Interruptions.)
I have asked the Minister about the task force in my constituency and he has not answered.
I have no control over that. Deputy Séamus Brennan, please.
I would like the Minister to answer my question.
(Interruptions.)
(Limerick East): I do not set up special task forces or any such special forces. The Commissioner decides on the way to deploy the Garda Síochána and if he decides to deploy extra, special forces, rather than the ones he has put into Galway and Sligo, that is his decision. All I can guarantee is that the full resources of the State and the full resources of the Garda Síochána are available in this matter. There have not been cutbacks in overtime. There has not been a directive from my Department to any divisional superintendent in the west to cut back on overtime. The overtime is there and it is an open decision to use it as they see fit. We reiterated this morning that money was not to be a consideration in tracking down these cowardly criminals. The full resources of the Garda are to be used to do so.
Is the Minister satisfied that there is a response from the general public in relation to the flow of information to the Garda in relation to suspicious characters in that region? Will the Minister agree that due to the political violence in the North there is a reluctance on the part of the public to convey information to the Garda authorities about suspicious characters in that region? Would the Minister agree that these thugs are operating in the full knowledge of the general public who are reluctant to give information because of the political violence? Could the Minister highlight this aspect in order to bring an awareness to the public that criminals are operating in the full knowledge that people are afraid to give information?
(Limerick East): There is a good flow of information to the Garda Síochána but one can never be sure that there are not people who have particularly accurate information that they are not conveying to the Garda. I am surprised at what the Deputy has said. It is a very subjective comment. I would be amazed if the general public in these circumstances, where their parents and grandparents living alone are under threat, would see some connection between the violence in Northern Ireland and an unwillingness to give information to the Garda Síochána. If that is the case I appeal to the general public to give the information to the Garda to help them to bring these criminals to justice.
Does the Minister accept that one of the major problems is the belief that those elderly people have substantial amounts of cash in their homes? Would he and the Ministers for Finance and Social Welfare amend the deposit interest rules and the social welfare regulations so that elderly people would be allowed to deposit reasonable amounts without fear of taxation or difficulties in regard to social welfare benefits? Would these Ministers try to sort out the taxation and social welfare difficulties surrounding the keeping of cash in houses in rural areas. I believe that would make a major contribution towards solving the problem.
(Limerick East): The alertness of neighbours and advertising by banks have brought about a situation in which old people are not keeping money in their houses. My information is that approximately £170 was the total taken in eight incidents over the weekend. The Minister for Finance announced in the budget that he is doubling the concession for revenue purposes available to people over 65 years of age.
The real problem is that old people are keeping money in their houses and though there has been a slight improvement it is very slight. The increased surveillance by social welfare officers on small farmers who have been receiving unemployment benefit has led to an alarming amount of investigation into old age pensioners who have been receiving their pensions for years. I should like to quote a letter from the Minister recently to an 83 year old lady who was asked to repay £288 old age pension——
This is not in order at Question Time.
In the west at the moment old age pensioners are being pursued by pension officers. They are having their pensions reduced because they now have more means than they had when they received their pensions for the first time perhaps more than ten years ago. Therefore I ask the Minister to give an amnesty to all old age pensioners living in rural areas, particularly in the west, who now agree to put their money in the banks. They are still holding money in their houses. Indeed some of them are holding money and at the same time not feeding themselves adequately.
These are not questions.
(Limerick East): I do not think anybody should try to put the blame anywhere except where it belongs, on those cowardly thugs who attack old people. It is not the fault of the Minister for Social Welfare, the banks or the old people who want to keep a few pounds in their homes. The people who are to blame are those who perpetrate these crimes, and we will use the resources of the Garda to hunt them down, and if they are sentenced to long terms of imprisonment I can assure Deputies that I will keep them in.
(Interruptions.)
Question Time is in the discretion of the Ceann Comhairle, with special reference to the number of supplementary questions that can be answered. I consider that I have been more than fair today. Some of my predecessors, when they had got through three-quarters of Question Time, ruled that there would be no further supplementaries on any other questions because of the number of questions to be answered.
A bad decision.
I will not allow any more supplementaries on this question. Deputy Enright will resume his seat.
I appreciate your position, but the question is very important.
Deputy Enright will not argue with the Chair. If I allow him I will have to allow Deputy Ned O'Keeffe, Deputy Naughten and others. The Deputy will resume his seat.