asked the Minister for Health the total amount of money outstanding from (a) farmers and (b) the self-employed in respect of health contributions; the number of persons from whom payment is outstanding in each category; and the measures being taken to have the outstanding money collected.
Ceisteanna-Questions. Oral Answers. - Health Contributions.
5.
A total of £11,846,971 is outstanding from 115,905 farmers. A total of £19,303,138 is outstanding from 91,357 other self-employed persons.
These represent initial assessments of income and in many cases will be reduced considerably on appeal.
The amounts outstanding cover the period from the introduction of health contributions in October 1971 up to 30 September 1984 when demands for current year liabilities commenced to issue.
The collection of arrears outstanding from farmers for periods prior to 6 April, 1984, remain the responsibility of health boards. Final demands have recently issued in respect of these arrears. Health boards will be vigorously pursuing the collection of these arrears in the current year.
It appears there has been a huge increase in the arrears owed since the Minister last replied to my question, I think in 1983. Does the Minister have any information of how much on average was collected in 1984 or 1983 and to what extent there is any money being collected from the self-employed or the farming community in respect of these charges? Would the Minister indicate if there have been any arrangements made to seek payment from people looking for services who are in arrears?
One of the measures I introduced in relation to those who do not pay their health contributions was that they would be charged an admission charge for inpatient hospital services, be they farmers or self-employed persons whose health contributions are outstanding. In that regard I brought in the regulations on 1 June 1984 and they were immediately liable for an admission charge of £100. Up to the end of January 1985, 65 persons had paid the £100 charge; but in the period 1 June 1984 to 30 September 1984 a total of 363 demands for the £100 had been issued in relation to the charge. Health boards, for a variety of reasons — largely because they did not see themselves as having any role in this area from 1971 when they were first established — up to 1984 did not collect arrears. Indeed, there was not much pressure on them by a number of Ministers of Finance to do so. From April 1984 the Minister for Finance has been responsible for the collection of health contributions from all self-employed persons, including farmers. I have been bringing great pressure to bear on the health boards to collect these arrears of contributions. They stretch over 13 years and total some £32 million. I do not have an average due. I am pursuing them and I have not written off any of the arrears. I have insisted that the full enforcement procedures be brought into play in respect of these arrears of contributions which, after all, are paid by PAYE workers on a straight 1 per cent deducted from their wages each week.
Is the Minister aware that the use of these estimates gives rise to much concern among other sectors of the community and to much unnecessary unease because of the magnitude of the estimated figures? Would he tell the House if the actual figures are likely to represent a much smaller percentage of the estimate? For example, are they likely to be in the region of 10 per cent or 50 per cent of the estimate, or what figure do his Department feel is actually due out of these estimated figures he has given the House today?
As the Deputy knows, a flat rate health contribution scheme was introduced from 1 October 1971. That was replaced by a pay-related scheme with effect from 6 April 1979. Talking somewhat offhand at this stage, I would imagine that, on appeal, we probably would have not more than £12 million to £15 million outstanding of the £32 million, but that is a substantial sum of money. Every year I have included several millions in my estimates on the basis of the money being remitted to the Exchequer. It all goes straight to the Exchequer. It is not within the reach of the health boards who do not regard themselves as having an incentive to collect the arrears. I would think that approximately £8 million to £9 million are outstanding and I am quite determined to get that money.
Did the estimated amount owing which the Minister gave the House refer specifically to health contributions, as was asked in the question, or did it include the special levy and the youth employment levy? Who is responsible for collecting this levy — formerly it was the health boards? I understand the Revenue Commissioners collected it last year; but, in view of the fact that there is to be a land tax, will it still be the Revenue Commissioners, or who will collect it? My third question is this. Would the Minister accept that there is chaos, particularly among farmers, in that they received demands on an estimated income — they do not know on what it was based — and that some of them have actually paid the special levy for which they were not liable as their total income amounted to less than £5,000?
That seems to be a speech.
They were three separate questions.
Again, if the Chair was doing its duty there would not be three separate questions.
All of the data I have given refers to health contributions only, not to the levies, because the health contributions are reflected in the agreed Estimates between my Department and the Department of Finance. There is no reason in the wide world that farmers or self employed persons should be unduly perturbed about it. All they have to do is to pay. But the propensity of Irish people not to pay for anything if they can get away with it is enormous.
The Minister may have misunderstood me. It is my understanding that they are not objecting to paying. They are concerned that they are being presented with a demand based on an estimated income which bears no relationship to their real incomes. Many of these people are smallholders who would not have an accountant or who would not have to prepare accounts. Is the Minister aware of that, and that, some of them have paid the special levy even though they were not liable because their incomes were less than £5,000 per annum? Would the Minister now say who is responsible for collecting it?
All any person who receives an assessment on that basis has to do is pay on account. I have no doubt, if somebody wants to pay on account what they consider themselves to be liable for, that the health boards would be anxious to resolve the balance by agreement or formal appeal. Unfortunately, it is not germane to farmers or to the self-employed as the system does not capture the money at source and the tragedy is that people just do not want to pay and will not pay unless they are compelled to do so.
Could the Minister indicate what proportion of farmers and self-employed are paying this contribution and, of those who are in arrears, what proportion have appealed the assessment?
It is difficult to answer that question but I will write to the Deputy about the matter. Quite a number of farmers who are liable have paid for some years but still owe for others. Therefore, I could not give a precise figure, but a considerable number of farmers have appealed amounts due which were based on the health boards' determination of their incomes.