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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 26 Mar 1985

Vol. 357 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Spanish and Portuguese Fishing Rights: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann solemnly declares it will reject any arrangements which will permit access by Spanish or Portuguese fishing boats to what is referred to as The Irish Box in the present EEC negotiations on the enlargement of the Community.

For more than a year now we in Fianna Fáil have been pointing to the disastrous consequences that would result for the Irish fishing industry by reason of the enlargement of the Community consequent on the accession of Spain and Portugal unless adequate steps were taken in the negotiations to protect the Irish industry and to safeguard our vital interests. On every occasion on which we raised the issue, whether by way of debate here on motions relating to fishing affairs, or motions dealing with developments in the Community, or by way of parliamentary question, we were given assurances that no agreement would be entered into that would be detrimental to the development of the industry or to its future prospects. It is emerging now from the recent discussions that our worst fears have been realised and that, unwittingly or otherwise, the Government have accepted a position that will spell the death knell for our fishing industry. They appear to have agreed that enlargement of the Community, with all the unfavourable aspects that would follow from our point of view, is more important than holding out in the negotiations for an agreement that would ensure adequate protection for our fisheries and enable further expansion and development of the industry.

We contend that Irish fisheries have been sold out, that jobs in the industry have been put at risk, that confidence has been undermined and that the prospect of further development and expansion of the industry has been damaged. The whole affair has been handled badly. It has been poorly negotiated. The outcome will be disastrous for our fishing industry.

In June 1984 I expressed our deep concern at the manner in which the negotiations had been conducted and I pointed to the implications for the industry in the event of the accession of Spain and Portugal. It was obvious that for technical, administrative and indeed, political reasons it would be impossible to meet the deadline that had been set for the conclusion of the negotiations. That was the view also of experienced people in the industry, people who had been following the course of the discussions. It was the widespread belief also of the fishing industry in the Community generally.

Because of the lack of preparedness, of discussion and of examination of the complex issues involved there was a general understanding throughout the Community that the deadline could not be met, that in the final analysis a decision would be reached without full and adequate consideration or without taking into account the implications for the long term development of the industry and that a decision would be reached in the final days in which it was decided to conclude negotiations.

The Common Fisheries Policy which represented a fragile balance between the member states involved a period of six years discussions and negotiations. The enlargement of the Community to include Spain with its fleet of 17,500 fishing trawlers would obviously endanger the very fine balance of that policy. It is obvious also that with regard to access to fishing waters, enlargement would have a dramatic impact not only for Ireland but for all the fishing interests in the Community. In short, the entire marine resources management policy of the Community would be endangered. This view has been expressed also by responsible people in the industry throughout Europe. A further implication is the extraction of marine resources by vessels operating under third country flags which would have free access to the markets. Conservation measures, protection policies and development prospects would all be affected. The lack of consideration given to the issues involved would mean that permanent re-negotiation would be needed and this inevitably would destroy the confidence of fishermen in the Community. The whole operation of the Common Fisheries Policy, a policy that was arrived at after protracted negotiations, would be put in jeopardy at a very early stage and before it had the opportunity to work satisfactorily.

The most immediate impact of enlargement for the Irish fishing industry would be the presence in our fishing waters of the huge Spanish fleet. Even in the best regulated fishing regime, the cost is massive in terms of protecting our fishing rights but it is even more forbidding when it is clear that large sections of the northern Spanish fleet now operate illegally. For evidence of this one need only have regard to the figures for convictions of Spaniards in respect of illegal fishing in Community areas. In our exclusive area in the past few years, many Spanish vessels have been apprehended. In 1982 there were convictions in respect of 30 Spanish vessels and in 1983 the figure was 43. Of the 29 foreign boats apprehended in 1984, 24 were Spanish registered and five were ex-Spanish vessels that were registered in the UK. The fines in respect of our area for 1981 in this regard totalled £1,033,672. The fines in respect of 1984 will total more than £500,000 and there are probably other very substantial fines yet to be imposed for that year.

The protection of our exclusive fishing area is a big problem. We have a coastline of 1,737 miles. The 200 mile exclusive fishing limit gives us a sea area of approximately 132,000 square miles to patrol and protect. For the year 1980 there were 25 convictions for illegal fishing in those waters. The number of vessels apprehended represents only a small proportion of the numbers operating illegally in our waters. It is important that strict vigilance in respect of our fishing area is maintained. This has been done in the past. Nevertheless it is clear that protection will become more important in the future because many foreign vessels will encroach on our exclusive areas as their own fishing grounds become denuded of stock. It is evident that this will pose enormous problems for our hard-pressed protection services.

It is well known that there has been increased illegal activity recently by Spanish boats in anticipation of Spain becoming a member of the EC and once agreement is reached there will be increasing pressure to secure quotas and access to our exclusive areas. Fianna Fáil have complained consistently of the lack of information emanating from the discussions and the failure of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Fisheries to disclose what has taken place behind closed doors in Brussels.

We criticised strongly the system that has developed where negotiations in such a complex and complicated area are being handled by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and his Department. I have every confidence in his ability to negotiate but we think the primary responsibility for negotiating in this delicate and complex area which is so involved and interwined with fishery development in the Community should be the responsibility of the Minister for Fisheries. It is not good enough that he sits in as an observer at these important discussions: he should be involved directly in the negotiations. We may well suffer as a consequence. It is our opinion that the Minister should be involved directly in the negotiations and now in the days prior to the next round of discussions we urge that the system that has been adopted in recent times be changed and direct responsibility given to the Minister for Fisheries to finalise that agreement.

It is true that an understanding emerged in the early discussions that the Irish Government would hold out for a definite transitional period and it was understood by all involved that the present fishing regime would be frozen at present levels. We understood that negotiations would proceed for the integration of Spain with the Community's fishing industry during the transitional period but that there would be no escalation of Spanish activity in our areas in that period. We understood that the principle we had adopted in the framework agreement we signed previously would be adhered to: in other words, that there would be a systematic phasing out of Spanish activity within Irish coastal areas and that that principle would not be changed. This had ensured that during the five years of the operation of the framework agreement Spanish fishing within Irish coastal areas had been reduced by 50 per cent. It was considered important that during the transitional period Spain would rationalise its fleet, reduce its capacity and generally streamline its efforts by getting rid of its overcapacity and its obsolete boats and thus fit into the Community fishing fleet when the transitional period would have expired. By then it was hoped the Spanish Government and the Spanish fleet would accept their responsibilities fully, not only in relation to their behaviour in respect of the Common Fisheries Policy but also in the way they operated their fleet so that we would not have the illegal flouting of the law that is taking place on an ever-increasing scale by the Spanish fleet at the moment.

The length of the transitional period has been the subject of some discussion here. On the last occasion when we debated the issue the Minister for Fisheries pointed out that it was the first time he had heard of a 20-year transitional period. I would remind the Minister that in December in the debate here on developments in the European Communities I spoke of the need for a 20-year transitional period from the date of Spain's accession to the Common Market during which time the issues I raised would be discussed, negotiated and decided upon. I said there should be no question of any escalation of fishing activity in that 20-year period.

It is generally accepted in the industry that until the summit in Dublin there was no question whatever of anything less than a 20-year transitional period from the date of entry of Spain and Portugal, which will be 1 January 1986. It was with some alarm we learned in the Dáil from the Minister that not alone had the demand for the 20-year transitional period been abandoned but that what was being discussed was a situation where a transitional period would not apply at all. A Community offer was on the table that would give Spain access on the basis of 1984 quantities to the species it currently enjoys and this would be extended to allow Spain catches in other species that were to be determined such as horse mackerel and blue whiting within a transitional licensing system. Horse mackerel and blue whiting are two species where we could expect to see some exploitation by Irish fishermen in the development of our fishing industry in the next few years. Because of the stock situation the traditional species we have been fishing in the past years are under strict control. It is essential to expand our fishing industry and to develop it and we must have adequate availability of horse mackerel and blue whiting if we are to have such expansion in the future.

The transitional arrangements that have been talked about by the Commission would last possibly for ten years but with the possibility that it could be reduced to eight years if satisfactory post-transitional arrangements could be adopted by the Commission and by the Council. If such arrangements could not be implemented the ten-year transitional period would be extended for a further five years. There was some surprise expressed that the summit had agreed not a 20-year transitional period but a ten-year period with the possibility of a further five years extension. Apparently in the later Commission proposals it seemed to well informed people who were watching developments that not only was the ten-year transitional period with a further extension of five years being abandoned but that the Spanish fishing fleet would be entitled to get inside the Irish box in seven years. This was totally unacceptable and we made this point clear in discussions here. There was also a proposal to give access to fishing for hake, monkfish, pollack and many other varieties in regard to which we consider there is a prospect for future development.

There was a bid to expel boats from the North Sea area but there did not appear to be any provision whereby large parts of the Spanish fleet which fish in non-Community waters would be prevented from entering Community zones which would pose a further problem for us. What we are seeing is a total sell-out of the Irish position which will put the Irish fishing industry into the dark ages and which will put a brake on further development of the fishing industry.

Apart from the question of access and quotas some very important issues appear to have been glossed over in the rush to find agreement. There is a growing fear that fish and fish products produced by member states will be displaced by similar products coming onto the market from Spain. It is then anticipated that because of the huge demand and the huge Spanish market for fish there would be an opportunity here for fish markets for the Irish fishing industry. It is well known that Spain has many third country agreements. They have over 106 joint ventures and we have little or no information from the Minister as to what effects these arrangements will have on fish markets, fish prices and on the jobs in the processing industry here.

We are dissatisfied with the situation in the area of structural development. The Commission were apparently hampered by the lack of information in relation to the size and the state of the Spanish fleet. It is understood that Spain will require substantial sums for modernisation and for the disposal of obsolete vessels. The lack of information from the negotiations leaves us in a position where we are not satisfied that adequate funding will be available from the structural policy of the Common Fisheries Policy to fund the modernisation of the Irish fleet so that the restructuring we need as urgently as any fleet in the Community will be done through funding by the Community, bearing in mind that at present Community funds are under severe pressure and there are no indications that there will be a substantial increase in the funds set aside for structural improvement.

In relation to the council meeting last week, which brought about this motion, it was obvious from reports from Brussels last Wednesday that in the negotiations concessions have been made by our negotiating team which clearly admitted that the exclusive position in the 50 mile box was to be breached after a ten year period. In other words, Spain would get access to the Irish box after the ten year transition period. There was some doubt as to whether or not that was agreed. This would mean that increasing pressure would be brought on us to get access to the 12 to six mile limit. The failure to get any worthwhile assurance from the Minister for Defence who replied to a Private Notice Question last week on behalf of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and the confusion which resulted at the Foreign Affairs Council Meeting on Thursday night, demands this evening a clear and unambiguous statement from the Minister and the Minister of State if possible, as to what has taken place in Brussels in these final negotiations. It was obvious from press reports of what transpired that the Minister felt he had agreement but was not sure whether or not he had an agreement. It is equally obvious that the French Minister objected on behalf of his industry because he was not satisfied with the control on the number of boats getting into the French coastal areas. It was also obvious that the Danish Government were prepared to use their powers of veto to keep Spanish boats under control in the North Sea area. This was made quite clear by the Danish foreign office in a statement issued in Copenhagen, clearly indicating that the Danish Government in the fisheries negotiations were not satisfied with the increased Spanish activity which they were anticipating in their fishing areas and that they were prepared to use their powers of veto to hold up any agreement on the common policy which would be adopted by the Community and Spain. Our negotiating team, both the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Fisheries, were out-manoeuvred by the Danish and French Ministers. The Irish position is now critical. Apparently we have agreed to an infringement of the Irish box after a short transitional period which can be negotiated further before these negotiations are concluded so that we will be left in a very vulnerable position as regards the Spanish fleet. The French Government have no intention of letting the Spanish fleet into their area; the Danes have threatened to use their powers of veto, but we have accepted a situation which will inevitably mean that much greater pressure will be directed towards us if the Spanish authorities and the Spanish negotiating team wish to encroach further into our areas. We want an assurance from the Minister here tonight, from not only the Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Fisheries but from the Taoiseach, that in the event of failure to rectify the situation in the negotiations that will take place this week there will be a very hard line adopted by the Taoiseach at the summit to ensure that there is no weakening of our position and that there is no question of abandoning our position of maintaining our exclusive 50 mile box.

In proposing the motion we are not prepared to sacrifice a national interest in the fishing area for enlargement of the Community to satisfy other member states who appear to be more interested in enlargement for reasons other than social or economic development. We are seeking vote support in the Dáil for this motion and asking those who value the development and preservation of our natural resources to back this motion. We believe it to be in the national interest to take a stand on this issue now. The House cannot accept that the 13,000 people employed in the fishing industry can be deprived of their livelihoods or be driven from the industry. The future prospects for the preservation and development of a major national industry cannot be threatened. There is no alternative for the Taoiseach except to scrap this deal which has been negotiated and to ensure that in the summit there will be no sell out of the Irish position in these negotiations.

I understand that Deputy Kirk wishes to get in at 7.30 p.m. and if so the Deputy has a little over a minute.

Early on we recognised the importance of enlargement of the Community and the need to have a carefully documented case and a strong stance taken in the enlargement negotiations. We, in the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the EC who meet on a regular basis undertook in a motion debated last year to have a very thorough examination of the whole industry carried out and to express a view on the implications of enlargement of the Community for our fishing industry. We in the committee sought a special debate in the Dáil on the issue. Permission was not given and we have used any opportunity available to us both in Parliamentary Questions, Private Notice Questions and in various debates on the Estimates and on motions in this House to put on record our serious worries about the fishing industry in this new situation which is developing.

We are totally dissatisfied with the way the negotiations have been handled to date. We have tabled the motion in the hope that, even at this late stage, we can make the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Fisheries aware of the seriousness of the matter. I hope they will realise that and rectify the matter before any permanent damage is done to our fishing industry.

I am pleased to get an opportunity to support Deputy Daly in his plea to the House on behalf of the fishing industry. The necessity to protect an industry that has only started to develop in recent years cannot be overemphasised. We must ensure that it is fully protected and allowed reach its full potential. The danger that the accession of Spain and Portugal to the Community will mean that our industry will be overrun is very real. The indications are that in our negotiations the Government have not been as successful as they should in their efforts to protect the industry. It is essential that there should be a 20-year transition period. The now famous Irish box must be guaranteed and our fishing industry must be given complete protection. There is a great danger that with the advent of Spain and Portugal there will be a complete upheaval in the fishing industry not alone around our coasts but throughout Europe.

There has been a huge investment by committed people in the industry down the years. This is a time of worry and apprehension for those involved in that investment. It is vital that those involved in the negotiations on our behalf adopt a stance that will protect the interests of those people. The huge investment in fishing, one of our great natural resources, must be protected. It must be remembered that the Spanish fleet is larger than the total European fleet. On that basis alone one can see the impact the arrival of boats from the country in our fishing grounds will have. There is no doubt that it will be catastrophic.

Our fishing industry has a long way to go before it reaches its full potential. It is imperative that in the negotiations measures are adopted to protect our industry. In 1975, 2,270 fishermen were employed full time here and that figure rose by 1982 to 3,675. In part time employment in 1975 there were 4,360 and that figure rose by 1982 to 5,300. Those figures illustrate the importance of the fishing industry to our economy. In processing in 1975 about 1,300 people were employed and that had increased by 1982 to 2,000. The huge investment in our fleet will go for nought if Spain and Portugal are granted permission to fish in our fishing grounds and it is questionable if our industry is in a position to withstand competition from those countries. State expenditure in 1983 by BIM, the Department of Fisheries and Roinn na Gaeltachta amounted to £25 million — BIM made a fleet investment in the region of £9 million. That investment will be money down the drain if Spain and Portugal are allowed plunder our fishing grounds.

The development of the industry here has been concentrated in small areas. The large vessels which have a considerable catching capacity operate from the Donegal coast. Up to now mackerel has been the principal species caught and marketed but if that species is endangered there is a danger that the industry will fall flat on its face. There has been a considerable growth in the tonnage landed. In 1970 77,500 tonnes were landed and in 1982 206,000 tonnes were landed. The growth in the tonnage landed was in the main in mackerel. It has risen from 1,000 tonnes to 110,000 tonnes over a relatively short period.

With regard to harbour and port development in recent years, I should like to say that Howth, Dunmore East, Castletownbere, Rossaveal and Killybegs have been the main centres of activity; but, unfortunately, Clogher Head in my constituency and Schull in County Cork have suffered as a result of an over concentration in those areas. The harbour in Clogher Head is falling into the sea and it is doubtful if there is a commitment by the Department to the development of the fishing industry in that area. Fishermen in Clogher Head have been agitating for some time to have necessary repairs carried out. They have called for investment by the Department of Fisheries in Clogher Head but to date their request has fallen on deaf ears. The Government should take an urgent look at this and ensure that the rights of fishermen in those areas are protected.

The fishing industry ranks as one of our greatest natural resources and because of that I cannot over emphasise the need for the Government to adopt a firm stance in the negotiations with Spain and Portugal. I am worried that Minister Barry and Minister of State O'Keeffe have failed in the negotiations. Obviously, they do not have any interest in the fishing industry. If one takes note of the fact that about 13,000 people are employed in the industry one will realise how important it is to protect our fishing rights. I appeal to those concerned in the negotiations to stand firm and ensure that our fishing industry is protected and allowed to develop in the years to come.

I am dividing my time with Minister of State O'Keeffe. I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Dáil Éireann declares its support for the efforts of the Government to ensure an outcome favourable to the further development of the Irish fishing industry in the fisheries chapter of the accession negotiations between the European Community and the applicant countries."

The reasons why Deputy Daly's motion is not acceptable to the Government are straightforward. The motion tabled by Deputy Daly is based on the incorrect and unsustainable premise that it would be possible to permanently exclude Spanish and Portuguese fishing from the waters covered by the Irish box. Deputy Daly changed his tune tonight — Deputy Kirk repeated that change — and I presume they will be voting for my amendment tomorrow night. Deputies opposite now say they want a 20 year exclusion, although their motion, which is contrary to EC practice, calls for a permanent exclusion. The deputy leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, Deputy Lenihan, last year was calling for a 15 year exclusion. As is usual with the Opposition, confusion reigns.

Deputy Daly and his party are very well aware that it has always been accepted in the Community that the Community's rules would eventually require non-discriminatory treatment on the issue of access to the waters of the enlarged Community for all members of the enlarged Community and that, subject to any temporary derogations which might be negotiated, a time would come when there would be no basis on which to exclude Spain, or indeed any other member state of the enlarged Community, from the waters in the Irish box. Those who are familiar with the history of the negotiations on the Irish box will know that the concept of the prohibition of fishing by Spain, and by other third countries, in a box, no point of which could be less than 50 miles from the Irish coast, arose initially in the context of the Community's fisheries relations with third countries following the Hague Agreement of 1976. Ireland insisted upon, and secured, the exclusion of Spanish fishing from the Irish box in return for our acceptance of the bilateral Framework Agreement of 1980 between the Community and Spain. What was involved was the exclusion of a third country, Spain, from a particular area of Community waters. This was the price to be paid by that third country for the fishing rights which it enjoys in other parts of the Community's waters.

I should like to emphasise the words "third country" in relation to the creation of the Irish box, since Spain and Portugal will no longer be third countries when they accede to membership of the Community. Subject to any transitional arrangements or temporary derogations which may be negotiated, these countries will have the same rights, and the same obligations, as other member states of the Community. These are plain facts which Fianna Fáil Deputies should face up to — unless, that is, they wish to suggest that the two countries concerned should not be permitted to become members of the Community, which I presume is not their intention, although it was implicit in Deputy Daly's remarks. To suggest that members of the Community could be permanently excluded from the Community waters covered by the Irish box is merely to seek to mislead public opinion in regard to the rights of member states of the Community. I have to say that I find the content of the motion tabled by Deputy Daly very strange indeed, especially since the Deputy Leader of his party, in vol. 356, col. 1789, of the Official Report, in the debate on fisheries on 6 March, said that "there must not be any compromise in regard to the box... during a transitional period".

I should not have to say so to this House, but the Opposition motion compels me to emphasise once more in the strongest manner that the Government have spared no effort throughout the accession negotiations on fisheries with Spain and Portugal to secure an outcome favourable to the further development of the Irish fishing and fish processing industry. The Government remain determined to secure such an outcome.

It seems that there is a need to put matters in some perspective and to say something about the history of very difficult negotiations which are now, I hope, very near to an end. The difficulties so far as Irish interests are concerned have been with Spain. Portugal's interest in developing fishing activities in the waters of the existing Community are very limited indeed.

The Common Fisheries Policy became a fully fledged Community policy on 1 January 1983. The question of excluding Spain from participation in that policy does not arise. What is at issue in the Community's negotiations with Spain is the question of how Spain is to be integrated into that policy, from the date of Spain's accession and during the lifetime of the policy in its present form, that is, up to the year 2002, without causing any serious upheaval in the balance which was finally achieved in this laboriously negotiated policy. The means for avoiding upheaval in the balance of the Common Fisheries Policy, following Spain's accession, are now being negotiated. These means involve temporary geographical restrictions on fishing by Spanish vessels in certain areas of the Community's waters, including the Irish box. They involve limits on the size of catch quotas for particular species to be allocated to Spain from its entry to the Community up to the end of the present arrangements, in the year 2002, under the existing Common Fisheries Policy. They also involve strict limits on the number of Spanish vessels which will be permitted to fish in Community waters between accession and the year 2002 as well as the application of a very strict monitoring system to such Spanish fishing as will be permitted in Community waters.

Throughout the negotiations on fisheries Spain has pressed for substantial integration, from the very date of accession, into the Common Fisheries Policy. That country has sought an outcome whereby, from accession, she would be subject only to the same regulations as at present govern member states' fishing activities and whereby geographical restrictions on Spain's fishing effort, including the Irish box, would begin to be dismantled from the date of accession. Spain has vigorously made the point that it has been customary in accession negotiations to seek solutions involving a transition towards the full application of the Community regime rather than exclusion arrangements; and that solutions involving transition arrangements rather than exclusion arrangements have in fact been found, or are on the way to being agreed, in other areas of the current enlargement negotiations. This point was made very forcibly by the Spanish Foreign Minister, Senor Moran, when he met the Minister of State at my Department at an early stage in the marathon negotiations on enlargement which took place at the Council of Ministers in Brussels through five days of last week.

Spain has all along pursued the objective of gaining some access for its fishing vessels to the Irish box from the date of accession, with graduated access thereafter. In short, Spain has vigorously opposed the principle of the Irish box being closed to Spain, when she joined the Community, while it remains open to fishing vessels from other member states of the enlarged Community. The Irish Government, on the other hand, have been absolutely determined to obtain a lengthy exclusion of Spanish vessels from the Irish box, as a necessary means of control. Moreover, we have joined with other member states in pressing for strict limits on the number of Spanish vessels which will be permitted to fish Community waters in order to avoid any serious upheaval in the balance of the present Common Fisheries Policy and with a view to maintaining the relative stability of fishing in the Irish box at the eventual stage when Spanish fishing vessels have access to the Irish box. In this connection we are talking about 1 per cent of the existing Spanish fleet into the total Community waters and less than a half of 1 per cent into the Irish box after the transitional period.

We are politically committed to Spain, as a democratic country, joining the Community and, like other member states which have interests to protect in not alone fisheries but other important areas of the negotiations, we have had to show a measure of flexibility. However, the Government's actions at every stage in the negotiations have made it manifestly clear to our Community partners and to Spain that we are absolutely determined to secure an outcome favourable to the further development of the Irish fishing industry.

The question of what is to happen to the Irish box when Spain and Portugal become members of the Community has certainly been one of the most difficult elements in the negotiations on fisheries. The Community, in an offer made to Spain in May 1984, proposed the application during a ten year period of a transitional licensing mechanism, with the exclusion of Spanish fishing vessels from the Irish box during this ten year period. This offer was decisively rejected by Spain, which continued to insist on access for its fishing vessels to the Irish box from the date of accession.

In December of 1984 the Community revised its offer to Spain. The Minister for Fisheries explained the elements of that offer to the Dáil in the course of a debate on fisheries on 5 March. The December offer provided that the transitional arrangements for the enlarged Community should last for ten years. with the possibility that this could be reduced to eight years if satisfactory post-transitional arrangements could be adopted before the end of 1993. If such arrangements could not be agreed by 1995, the ten years transitional period would be extended for a further five years. The Community's December position provided for the exclusion of Spanish vessels for fishing purposes from the Irish box during the transitional period.

The Minister for Fisheries further informed the Dáil on 5 March that Spain's reaction to the December offer was totally negative. Spain expressed strong opposition to the possibility — even though it was only a possibility — of a 15 year transition period. Moreover, Spain continued to press for access to the Irish box from the date of accession.

Spain's reaction to the Community's December offer led some member states which do not have significant fishing interests in the North Atlantic to query the length of the transitional period being offered to Spain and to reconsider other aspects of the offer. At the same time some of the five countries which have significant fishing interests in the North Atlantic appeared less determined than others to secure a transition period of at least ten years duration with the coterninous exclusion of Spanish vessels for fishing purposes from the Irish box.

On 11 February the Commission put forward for consideration by the Council a new package of compromise proposals covering the outstanding chapters of fisheries, agriculture and social affairs. In their proposals on fisheries the Commission sought to narrow the wide gap existing between the Community and Spain and thereby advance the negotiations. The Commission proposed the retention of the Irish box for a period of seven years only. While the Government welcomed some of the ideas in the Commission's proposed compromise on fisheries, we insisted that the exclusion of Spanish fishing from the Irish box for seven years only was not acceptable to us.

At last week's marathon meeting of the Council of Ministers, myself, the Minister for Fisheries and the Minister of State in my Department participated. Throughout the meeting intensive negotiations took place both between the member states of the Community, and between the Community and Spain. Following discussions in the Council, and discussions with the applicants, the Presidency put forward early in the meeting its own compromise proposals covering all the unresolved issues in the fisheries, agriculture and social affairs chapters of the negotiations. It is public knowledge, I believe, that the Presidency's compromise proposal on the outstanding questions in the fisheries chapter with Spain involved the lifting of geographical restrictions after seven years, that is, the full opening of the Irish box to Spanish fishing vessels at the end of this period. This aspect of the proposals was rejected by the Irish delegation. In further negotiations and discussions, Spain conceded the principle of five year's exclusion of Spanish fishing vessels from the Irish box. The Presidency's proposals then went through two subsequent revisions. On 21 March the Presidency produced a revised package of compromise proposals covering the fisheries and agriculture chapters of the negotiation in the case of Spain, and the social affairs chapter of the negotiations in the cases of Spain and Portugal. The discussions, which were finally adjourned late on the evening of 21 March and which are to resume next Thursday, were in large part based on this compromise package put forward by the Presidency. The discussions were adjourned because the Council found itself unable to reach agreement on all of the elements in the Presidency's proposed compromise package. The elements on which the Council was unable to reach agreement were not confined to the fisheries chapter.

The media have accurately reported that the Community Presidency's proposed compromise package of 21 March includes provision for a derogation under which Spanish fishing vessels would be excluded from the Irish box for a ten year period, with access to the box to be opened to a defined and limited number of Spanish vessels after that period. The proposed compromise would involve strict limits on the number of Spanish fishing vessels which would be permitted to fish in Community waters between the date of accession and the year 2002, the last year of the Common Fisheries Policy. This number would constitute only a tiny proportion of Spain's total fishing fleet.

There would be a sub-limit, within this overall limit, for the number of Spanish fishing vessels which would be permitted to fish in the Irish box when access to the box was eventually opened to Spanish fishing. Moreover, Spanish fishing activity in Community waters, including Spanish fishing activity in the Irish box after it had been opened up, would be subject to very strict controls, including quota limitations, as well as a strict monitoring system to ensure compliance with the terms of the agreement arrived at. This monitoring system would require prior notification of the actual vessels from the permitted list which intended to fish in particular parts of Community waters at any given time, as well as reporting of catches on board. Spain would be permitted to increase its catches of hake, megrim, monkfish, nephrops and pollack, and would be given allocations of blue whiting and horse mackerel. However, these increases would be achieved by increasing the total allowable catches for the species concerned. This would mean that as a result of the increases in the catch levels Irish fishermen would receive larger quotas for certain species.

Which species?

It will be apparent from what I have said that the present situation has been arrived at in the face of considerable difficulties. Notwithstanding Spain's demands for early access to the Irish box, notwithstanding the fact that the support of some member States of the Community for this country's negotiating objectives has been less than wholehearted, the Government have made very considerable progress towards achieving an outcome to the negotiations which will be positive and advantageous from this country's point of view. However, I must emphasise that the negotiations with the applicant countries are now at a very delicate juncture. The Presidency of the Community has emphasised that its compromise package of 21 March on the fisheries, agriculture and social affairs chapters is to be regarded as a unified whole. Not all the elements of that package have proved acceptable to all member states of the Community. In our case we have not said yes to the Presidency's proposals on the fisheries chapter.

Negotiations will resume at the Council of Minister on Thursday next. I hope it will be possible then to arrive at agreement with both of the applicant countries on the remaining major outstanding issues. I do not believe that it would be in the national interest for me to disclose here the details of the negotiating positions which we shall pursue at the discussions next Thursday, and I do not intend to do so. I can, however, give the House the firm assurance that the Government remain determined to secure an outcome which will permit the continued and progressive development of the Irish fishing industry in future years.

It used to be out, out, out; now it is sell out, sell out, sell out.

The Deputy's originality is mind shattering.

It is not original.

(Interruptions.)

This motion is a further example of blatant political opportunism on the part of the Opposition. It ignores reality and is entirely unsupported by the facts. The motion ignores the reality that Spain and Portugal have applied to join the Community as full members, and their application has the support of the Government and, up to now, had the support of the Opposition also.

Since membership of the Community will involve, as for every other member state, access to Community waters, acceptance of the opposition motion is tantamount to a rejection of the applications for membership. If this is the Fianna Fáil position, I think in fairness to the House, that they should say so clearly here and now. They cannot have their cake, or their fish, and eat it. Do I need to go into any arguments at this stage as to why it is in Ireland's interest to support enlargement? One can adduce the idealistic argument that the newly emerged democracies should be entitled to join, in accordance with the terms of the Treaty of Rome. If one is unconvinced by that argument, then perhaps the fact that the present Community is bankrupt and that we cannot get an agreement on an increase in own resources save in the context of enlargement may have a more compelling effect. This latter aspect is of more than passing interest to a country such as ours which is a net beneficiary from the European Community to the tune of about £600 million a year.

I do not think I need follow that tack unduly because the Opposition's argument does not clearly specify that they are against enlargement. I lay down a challenge to them, if they are against enlargement, let them say so here and now and we will argue out the situation in its broader terms. Any objective reading of their motion, which seeks a declaration of rejection of any arrangements that will permit access by Spanish or Portuguese fishing vessels to the Irish box, can only be tantamount to a rejection of enlargement.

Absolutely not.

The motion is entirely unsupported by the facts. If we believe in enlargement, what faces us is the question of how to integrate the applicant states into the CFP. I am dealing specifically with Spain, because the fishing capacity and potential of Portugal pose a threat to nobody. If we are talking about integration of Spain into the CFP, permanent exclusion from the Irish box is not on, in the same way as permanent exclusion from the North Sea is not on. Reference has been made to the Danes in the North Sea and we will deal with that also, but first I refer to the Irish box. We were able to maintain the box against Spain as a non-member, but it is totally against Community principles to expect a permanent exclusion against a state which is a member of the Community.

Since the North Sea was raised, let me deal with it. There is a very important difference between the Irish box and the North Sea which is worthy of stating. There is the difference that Spain has never fished in the North Sea, does not fish in the North Sea and has made it clear that it does not wish to fish in the North Sea. Despite this, the latest Community compromise contains a provision for the possible access to the North Sea by Spain from 31 December 1995.

Having disposed of that argument, let us look at our approach in this negotiation. Central to our approach has been our firm insistence on a number of things; firstly, a long period for the total exclusion of Spanish fishing vessels from the Irish box. We are seeking, have been seeking and will continue to seek that until the conclusion of the negotiations as a derogation, and I believe we will be successful. Secondly, we are insisting on the fixing of a restrictive list of Spanish vessels which might fish Community waters at any given time. Thirdly, we are seeking strict monitoring and control of Spanish fishing activities. Here I put in this House, as I did in Brussels for five days last week, a great deal of emphasis. I agree with the figures produced by Deputy Daly. They indicate indiscipline on the part of Spanish fishermen in the context of the present third countries. That is the one point on which Deputy Daly and I can reach agreement. I hammered home this point day after day last week in Brussels and insisted that there had to be proper controls. Last, as a central objective in our strategy, we sought that there would be no disruption of the percentage key of quota allocations for member states of the Ten as a result of any allocations of quotas to Spain.

I am constrained to some degree in my presentation here tonight in that the final negotiations have not been completed and I do not want to say anything that would be prejudicial to these negotiations which will resume on Thursday this week. However, we are close to realising our objectives on the points we have regarded as essential to a satisfactory outcome of the negotiations. I think I have made it clear that the formal negotiating position had not moved in any way but, as was made very clear by the Presidency late last Thursday night, the Spaniards, as part of an overall package, had conceded the ten year total exclusion. At the beginning of the week their approach was immediate access, later in the week they moved to access after five years but throughout the week there was no question of any budge on our part. We demanded and continued to demand a long period for the total exclusion of the Spanish fishing fleet from the Irish box.

The other aspects, while not fully finalised, will end up in a very favourable package from our point of view. The discussions in relation to controls have reached a very advanced stage, and I believe that by incorporating procedures which would involve telex messages immediately on going into zone 6 and zone 7, telex messages on the way out, the Shetland box procedure, reporting of catches etc., we will be able to establish a regime which must be respected.

I have heard many references to the danger of the Spanish fleet fishing right up to our shores. That is bunkum. Irrespective of what happens, with the total exclusion that we will achieve and even thereafter no Spanish fishing vessel will fish within the 12 mile zone. Reference was made also to the number of boats. I read a reference in an earlier debate to the Spanish fishing fleet of 17,500 vessels. Of course, the Opposition, who profess to be worried about raising fears and apprehensions on the part of the Irish fishing industry, proceed gaily to paint the picture of a huge invasion of Spanish vessels into our waters. Again that is bunkum. We will secure a deal that will result in a very limited number of vessels after the total exclusion period having access to our waters in zone 6 stretching right out to the——

What is the number?

——200 mile limit——

How many boats?

——and the number in zone 7 of the total Spanish fleet will be nominal.

How many boats?

The figures have not yet been totally finalised but they will be in two figures rather than three.

That is pure speculation.

In other words, they will be fewer than 100.

Is the Minister of State putting it on the record that there will be fewer than 100 boats?

To assist the Deputy and enable him to make his contribution later without producing foolish facts, I have an indication of the area. I wish I had more time to deal with the other spurious "facts" that have been produced here. There was reference to the French and how tough they were and the exclusions that they got. They have not and will not have any exclusion at all. They have problems inside their 12 mile limit because of traditional rights there, but that is a matter for them to resolve. They will have no exclusion.

The present Government have shown that they are determined to protect the interest of the Irish fishery industry. Within the context of the enlarged negotiations they have discharged that duty and responsibility to the maximum and will continue to do so right up to the end of negotiations. We will secure a deal which will be in the best interest of the country generally and of the fishing industry in particular.

Let the Minister of State convince his own party first.

I support the motion:

"That Dáil Éireann solemnly declares it will reject any arrangements which will permit access by Spanish or Portuguese fishing boats to what is referred to as The Irish Box in the present EC negotiations on the enlargement of the Community."

I was amused to hear the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Barry, talking about confusion on this side of the House. It is obvious to all that the confusion is on the other side. That is evident from the number of contradictory statements issued over the last few weeks. Three weeks ago we heard the utterances of Deputies O'Toole and D'Arcy. Last week we heard the Minister for Defence make statements on the fishery problem although the Minister of State at the Department of Fisheries was present. Tonight the Minister for Foreign Affairs and his junior Minister took up the running. That is typical of the Government. They try to cloud the issue and to confuse the people. However, the fishermen are not confused. They know the Government have sold them out in their negotiations. They will never be forgiven.

Less than three weeks ago many speakers from this side of the House dealt with the serious repercussions which will be caused by the entry of Spain and Portugal to the EC. We encouraged the Minister to take a tough and rigid stand during the negotiations and made many suggestions which we thought would be helpful to him. However, the Minister decided to totally ignore our advice. The proposals being put forward by the Minister will have serious consequences for the fishing industry. The Minister has a duty to protect one of our greatest national resources and to protect the livelihood of those engaged in the industry.

Fishermen view the situation with alarm and anxiety. They see this Government as inept, weak and incapable of protecting their interests. A few months ago we held the Presidency of the EC and the entry of Spain and Portugal was a live issue. The IFO and other fishery organisations made numerous representations to the Minister and the Government about the dire consequences the entry of Spain and Portugal would have on our fishing industry. The Government chose to ignore the alarm bells which were ringing at the time and adopted the theme song of being good Europeans, doing what was best for Europe at the expense of this country and people. Instead of using the role of presidency to seal the fishing deal to our advantage the Taoiseach and his Ministers were more interested in solving the wine lake problem for the Italians. Was a deal done behind closed doors between the Italians and the Government the results of which are now being felt to the detriment of our fishing industry?

Recent discussions and negotiations have not done anything to dispel the fears of fishermen. It now seems that the Government have allowed their EC partners to corner them into a position where they must accept the entry of Spain and Portugal as being far more important than the protection of our fishing industry. Why the rush to admit Spain and Portugal to the EC when it is obvious that a small nation like ours will have to pay the consequences of serious decline and job losses in the industry, an industry which faces financial difficulty with fleet owners owing £8 million to BIM and with threats of possession hanging over their heads?

What have the Government done to protect their interests? Nothing. Despite clear support from this side the Minister has clouded the issue by his constant refusal to give clear information on what took place. What are Ministers trying to cover up? Is it the fact that the leaked report from Brussels might very well be true, that major concessions have been made, that the Irish box is up for grabs and available to the Spaniards as a compromise? It is time the Minister came clean and told the truth to the House and the fishermen. If there has been a sell out the fishing industry might as well close up with a loss of 13,000 jobs.

As much as I am tempted to deal with the problem of the fishing industry in my own county, Wexford, I realise that the debate is related to the national interest. However, a Spanish invasion of our waters will have serious consequences for the fishermen in my constituency with the loss of several jobs. Does the Minister realise the great size of the Spanish fleet and the threat it will pose to our fishing industry? It is a fleet of 17,500 vessels compared to our fleet of 1,600 vessels. The total Spanish fleet represents over three quarters of the total EC fleet. Total fish landings by Spain are over five times greater than that of Ireland and the Spanish import more than the total Irish catch per year. The Irish fishing industry and fishermen have little chance of survival against such a huge fleet.

The Spanish are pulling every trick possible to join the Community because they see the rich fishery waters as being totally to their advantage. The Minister offered as a carrot the potential export market to Spain which would be available to our fishermen. This will not be the case. The Spanish are capable of servicing their own markets and they have numerous agreements with other countries for supplies. These would not make it economically viable for Irish entry to their markets.

Another area of concern must be the fact that the Spanish fleet is not structually sound. Huge injections of capital will be needed to modernise their outdated fleet and this will have to come from Community funds which will weigh heavily on our economic development under the Common Fisheries Policy. Up to now Community resources have helped our fishing fleet and industry to develop but due to extra strains on the Community further modernisation and development will be seriously curtailed. Our fishermen have suffered seriously due to the blatant illegal fishing by the Spaniards off our coasts. Our fishery protection service has been unable to curtail them. If they are allowed any legal foothold or given an inch in the present negotiations one can only speculate on the abuse which would be widespread in our fishery waters.

The preservation of the Irish box is vital and we must protect our stocks from being exploited so that our industry can expand in the non-traditional areas. If the industry is to expand it must do so by researching and developing areas where there is vast potential. The fishing industry is a very valuable resource and is important to our economy. It has vast potential for job creation. The Government cannot allow that potential to be undermined.

The Government must adopt a tough stance at the negotiating table. Up to now they have been pussyfooting and have been out-manoeuvered once again. A transition period of 20 years is a must. There can be no deviation from that stand, no selling out and no excuses. They should use the veto if they have to, but at all times the interests of Ireland and our fishing industry must come first.

In his speech the Minister spoke about a monitoring system of such Spanish fishing as will be permitted in Community waters. How is it proposed to control this vast area when, at present the Minister for Fisheries cannot control poaching in our rivers? How does he intend to control the Spanish fleet which may enter our waters illegally? The Minister has sold out the fishermen and the industry. How can the Minister of State, Deputy O'Keeffe, one of the principal negotiators, run on for ten minutes tonight poking fun at this side of the House? If that is how he treated the negotiations how can we treat what the Government are doing as serious? He acted disgracefully tonight by joking and making fun of this side in a serious debate which has serious consequences for our fishermen.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I support my colleagues regarding their apprehension about Spanish access to Irish waters. The greatest problem for our fishing industry is that it is ill-prepared and is a lame duck industry. If we do not get a realistic 20 year derogation we will be put out of business. Approximately 12,000 people are employed in the industry, which is pitiful when one thinks that we are an island community with excellent waters around our coasts.

I cannot accept any assurance that we will have strict monitoring and control of 1 per cent of the Spanish fishing fleet. At present Spanish boats are doing what they like in a most aggressive manner. Far higher fines should be imposed on Spanish fishermen who flout our laws. An island off Cork is being made ready for joyriders. Spanish captains who run around the Irish coast, do what they please and threaten the Irish navy are taken into court and released on a bond of £120,000 but the maximum fine is £3,000 or £5,000. Within the past couple of weeks a Spanish vessel was brought into Cobh and fined and within three days was caught again. If we cannot support our navy to monitor and protect our fishing grounds now, what chance will we have when Spain is allowed full access to Irish waters, even after a period of derogation?

We have to be sensible about this. If we do not take a tough stand on this issue we are writing off the Irish fishing industry for good. Virtually no development is taking place in the industry. We have very little research. We have one research vessel which is laid up for the entire year, apart from five or six weeks. We have a research field station in Sherkin Island off Cork. It is starved of funds. We are not supporting our fishing industry to enable them to be professional, to be fully developed and to have decent vessels to cope with one of the strongest fishing nations in the world. The Spanish fleet consists of 17,500 vessels. One per cent of that is 175 vessels. Such an influx into Irish waters together with unofficial fishing will destroy our industry. If we are to give the industry a breathing space and a chance to get off the ground, we must get a decent derogation.

The Fianna Fáil Party are demanding that our negotiators take a tough stand on this issue. Our fishermen have a tough job to do in trying to eke out a living. They are looking to our negotiators for a fair deal. They do not want our negotiators to come back and say they got a damn good bargain if they have left an under-developed industry at the mercy of one of the strongest fishing industries in the world. We need to be realistic in regard to the amount of funds made available to the industry. Our research has to be realistic.

The position in the processing sector of the industry is lamentable. It is an indictment of the people who had responsibility for the development of the industry over a long number of years. There is no use in BIM putting up palatial offices in Dun Laoghaire. That is no way to service our fishing industry. This industry is based almost exclusively around the south-west and the western coast. How many people in the processing sector, how many food processing personnel reside in the west and the south-west? How many personnel with fish processing qualifications are employed by BIM? For people on the west or the south-west coast who want to develop a fish processing activity it is a daunting task to try to make contact with the multiplicity of agencies with some responsibility for the fishing industry. Many people have thrown in the towel. We need to develop the secondary processing sector. In many cases fish is being landed and frozen and taken to markets in different parts of the world with expensive transport costs.

I cannot see why the Industrial Development Authority with their expertise in the food industry generally could not coordinate their activities together with BIM. They have offices in some of the sub-regions who could support the fishing industry. We have the same difficulty in the marketing sector. There is virtually no professional marketing for our industry. It is the old story: "Produce it and we will try to get rid of it somewhere." That is not a proper attitude for an industry facing the most intense competition not only in the production area but also in processing and marketing as well.

I call for an urgent injection of finance into the production, processing and marketing areas. We did this for other industries and why not for the fishing industry? At the moment fishermen are being hounded for repayments which they are unable to make. They are doing the best they can in difficult circumstances. For the general industries we have the permanent agency Fóir Teoranta. They have helped several firms and small industries over a lean period. We had the same thing in agriculture. I hope the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Finance will continue the Rescue Scheme for farmers in financial difficulties. I am advocating a similar scheme for fishermen in financial difficulties. We will be unable to meet competition in 15 or 20 years from Spain or any other country if our industry here cannot cope with that competition. We should support and develop our fishing industry rather than have a chip on our shoulder about competition. We should be able to sell out there on the market and compete with whatever countries we have to compete with.

Debate adjourned.
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