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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Apr 1985

Vol. 357 No. 9

Finance Bill, 1985: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Before Question Time I said that the principal function of the Finance Bill was to give statutory effect to taxation changes announced in the budget statement of 30 January. The Minister said that his aims were to improve the environment for increasing employment, to reform the taxation system and protect those on low incomes from the impact of the recession. I acknowledged that there were serious financial difficulties and the previous speaker, Deputy Séamus Brennan, also some Opposition spokesmen seemed to be acting the part of Robin Hood by demanding the improvement of national services without indicating where the money would come from. An instance of this occurred during the debate on education yesterday when Deputy Hugh Byrne suggested the employment of 7,300 new teachers at an approximate cost of £100 million to the taxpayer.

The gloom and doom which has been preached continuously from the Opposition benches has begun to stick with them and their followers, even in the smallest cumann. I outlined the case of one of their supporters in Ennis, a draper who had an increase in turnover of 25 per cent annually in the last two years but still says that there is an atmosphere of gloom and doom and that business prospects are not looking good.

The Minister for Finance and the Government have given confidence to people. They have done so in a cautious way. It is not as expansionary as the Opposition might like. The Opposition would like to spend millions of pounds without specifying the source of the money. There have been signs that the Government's policy is working. I refer to statements made by industrial and commercial people regarding shopping in Dublin during Easter. It is claimed that the rationalisation of VAT has had a significant effect on trade and prevented many people from going to the North to shop.

This measure has also improved the climate for the tourist industry. In the mid-west region all the hotels are solidly booked for the next four or five months. In addition, Aer Lingus have indicated that they do not have any vacant seats on their trans-Atlantic flights during the next three to four months. Therefore, in the event of fund raising activities in the US on the part of political parties here, advance notice should be given to Aer Lingus.

In their two years in office the Government have brought under control the very difficult financial situation they inherited with the result that we are now reaching a climate in which confidence is being restored and investment encouraged. The Government have had considerable success in this regard as has been illustrated by the decrease in inflation from 17 per cent in 1982 to a projected 5½ per cent this year. A great fillip to the economy also is the fact that last year's budget outturn was on target. The Government are continuing to ensure that the incomes of the less well off are being protected. In this area, too, there have been some important improvements. A prime feature of this year's budget is the increase in social welfare payments by amounts that are in excess of the projected rate of inflation between mid 1985 and mid 1986. There are other improvements in social welfare schemes, too. For instance, there will be equal treatment for married women, and for those who are pregnant and whose husbands are insured fully, there will be an extension of dental, optical and other benefits.

Undoubtedly, unemployment is our most serious problem. The figures in this regard represent a tragedy in human terms and a massive wastage in terms of economic resources. In endeavouring to improve this area no effort must be spared and no possible approach left unexplored.

One might be forgiven if, having listened to the Opposition, one had the impression that the unemployment problem could be solved merely by condemning it loudly enough and often enough without any worthwhile idea being put forward. We would be glad if the position could be improved in that facile manner but that is not possible. No Government in the history of the State has devoted more time to the unemployment problem than the present Government have devoted to it in the past two years. They have introduced a wide variety of very valuable schemes to help stimulate employment. An encouraging number of 5,000 availed of the enterprise allowance scheme in 1984. The social employment scheme for the long term unemployed which is coming into operation now will provide employment for at least one year for up to 10,000 people who have been unemployed for more than a year. This scheme can be availed of now by teachers and by school principals. These people had expressed very strong views about the position whereby temporary caretakers lost their employment. Schools, particularly, should avail of the scheme. Yesterday we had some comments about centre city schools but the social employment scheme affords a ready opportunity for the people involved to take advantage of what is being offered. Local authorities are expected to be major participants in the scheme. Apart from the valuable employment that will be provided, the scheme will enable local authorities to undertake desirable environmental, amenity and other works.

Employment will be promoted also by two central features of the budget which are proposed in parts I and III of the Bill. The first is the alteration in the income tax structure which has been designed carefully to have the maximum beneficial effect on employment and the second is the rationalisation of the VAT system. Already it appears that the improvement in the VAT system is being noticed in the tourist industry. The restructuring of the income tax bands and the increased personal allowances are most welcome. These changes will be some benefit to all income tax payers. The increases in allowances may not be as large as one would wish for but they are an earnest of the Government's commitment to initiating much needed reform in this area. I am confident that the reforms proposed in this Bill will have the effect of increasing the incentive to work, an incentive that is so vital to economic progress.

When referring earlier to the changes in VAT, I alluded to the commercial aspects of the changes but the new rates have resulted in a reduction in prices in respect of a large number of items. The benefit of these reductions will be enjoyed by householders particularly since the prices of such everyday items as soaps, detergents, cosmetics, crockery, glassware, sports goods, stationery, toys, household equipment and so on will be reduced. These items form a large part of the weekly household budget. I welcome also the reduction in VAT on newspapers.

The reduced VAT rates on car hire will have a beneficial effect on employment in my constituency particularly in the context of Shannon.

The building sector will be affected, too, by some of the VAT changes. There has been a good deal of criticism of the increase in VAT from 5 to 10 per cent on building services but this increase must be considered in the context of the overall reform of the VAT system. When assessing the overall effects, one must take into account the various measures taken by the Government to alleviate any adverse effects on building output that might result from the increase. For instance, the new house grant is being increased from £1,000 to £2,000. Many of those who have criticised the VAT increases have exaggerated their possible effects. They have failed to appreciate the context in which the changes are being made and have ignored the alleviating measures.

The need for a fundamental reform in the VAT system had been obvious for some time. The system had evolved in circumstances of a narrow taxation base and of a bewildering array of rates. The high rate of 35 per cent was unacceptable. On many occasions the Opposition criticised that high rate.

A Coalition Government introduced it.

The Minister has acknowledged the problems of a system that was complex, inefficient and expensive to administer. Another important factor in that regard was the provision of a serious incentive for evasion. The reduction to three rates — zero, 10 and 23 per cent — in the VAT system will considerably simplify its operation and this in turn will bring about an element of administrative and economic efficiency. In respect of all tax systems there is an incentive for evasion but in the case of VAT that incentive will be substantially reduced as a result of the changes being made. It is not surprising then that the reform in this respect has been acclaimed so widely by business people and consumers as well as by members of the Opposition.

The Government created a three-tier VAT system and they then had to decide on the appropriate rate to charge on building output, given that the 5 per cent rate had to be abolished. The choice lay between increasing the present rate to 10 per cent or reducing it to zero, thereby removing building output from the taxable base for the VAT system. The Government decided against the latter course, not only because the revenue loss would have been substantial, but because any erosion of the already narrow VAT base would have further distorted production and consumption patterns and would also have increased inefficiency. This is the exact opposite to what reforms in the VAT system were designed to achieve.

The Government decided to charge VAT at 10 per cent on building services and to introduce measures to alleviate, as far as possible, any effects on the industry, particularly in relation to housing. The Minister for Finance is to be commended on his readiness to ease the difficulties which would have been caused by the application of a 10 per cent rate on new houses from 1 March. When it was represented to him that the operative date of 1 March would have caused problems for builders and house buyers who had already signed contracts, the Minister wisely decided to defer it to 1 May.

A considerable part of the total building output, however, will not be affected by the increase in VAT. The output of direct labour units for local authorities and Government Departments will not be affected, indeed, private individuals building their own houses will not be affected either. Direct labour works in these categories will benefit by the abolition of the 35 per cent rate and, in particular, by the reduction in the rate applying to concrete blocks from 23 per cent to 10 per cent. I have not heard the Opposition mention that or any of the other benefits in the system. For a person building his own house, this could represent a saving of between £300 and £400 on a typical house.

Demand for building in the industrial, semi-State and commercial sectors is unlikely to be affected because most enterprises in these sectors can reclaim VAT paid on buildings. The Government are increasing the level of Public Capital Programme expenditure affecting the building industry over the period from 1985-87 and, as outlined in Building on Reality, they are increasing it by 9 per cent over the period of the plan. This will also account for an increased share of the total public capital expenditure. These increases have been provided despite the fact that some public investment programmes with significant building elements have been wound down as they near completion. The Government have taken measures to support the housing programmes. The range of housing grants and subsidies has been maintained in spite of the recommendations made by the National Planning Board to the contrary and new incentives have been introduced. These include the highly successful grant of £5,000 to enable local authority tenants or tenant purchasers with certain residency qualifications to purchase private houses. Joint venture housing is being further encouraged and the site subsidy of up to £1,000 is being extended to those on local authority lists who are buying joint venture houses. The public generally are not aware of the incentives which are available.

Local authorities are also being encouraged to purchase private houses. It is intended that the main thrust of this arrangement will be towards the purchase of new houses. There is also provision in the Bill for new tax incentives to encourage the refurbishing of houses let in multiple occupation. The commitment in Building on Reality to extend the scope of tax incentives designed to encourage the provision of private rented accommodation is given effect to in sections 20 and 21 of the Bill. At present these incentives are confined to cases where a new house is provided for renting or where a building is converted into two or more dwellings for renting. The new provision extends income tax relief to cases where buildings already in multiple use are refurbished to provide multiple residential accommodation of a better standard.

The recently announced increase in the new house grant from £1,000 to £2,000 is of special importance to the individual house purchaser because it provides financial assistance in the form of a lump sum in the early stages of setting up a house. The grant was originally intended to be increased to £1,750 to compensate for additional VAT on building contracts but I am glad that the Government agreed to a further increase to provide an incentive to the house building sector of the industry and also to help first time purchasers. It is also expected that, in conjunction with other measures brought into operation recently, in particular the £5,000 grant for local authority tenants and tenant purchasers the increased grant will provide an important boost to the demand for private housing.

The Minister for Finance and the Department of the Environment have looked carefully at the industry and are making genuine efforts to see that the rationalisation of VAT will not affect the building industry. Wild statements which are not well founded have been made about lack of progress in the building industry. I hope when the Bill is passed that the industry will get together and that there will be growth in future years.

My main reason for supporting the Bill is because the Minister's approach has been most welcome. In contrast to the spendthrift policies from 1977 onwards, the publication of Building on Reality has given people guidelines for the future. I acknowledge that there are severe problems, especially in regard to interest payments on loans and borrowings made abroad. Deputy Brennan said that we should try to make some arrangements with the lenders to produce a scheme which would extend the maturity of these loans. The Minister for Finance has demonstrated that he is well aware of the benefits which can accrue from delaying payment of these loans because the enconomy is so depressed. He has retionalised some of these loans and has eased the burden of repayments by extending them and he is to be commended for that. Financial experts here understand that the Government are on the right track. Any responsible person who is asked about their attitude to the Government advise people to put up with the hard times for a little longer.

The Government have protected the incomes of lower paid workers and are steering the economy on a course which will help future generations to earn a living in this country. I commend the Minister for introducing the Bill.

We have had the annual debate on the Finance Bill but, with the change in procedures in the House — and the Minister acknowledged this — the Bill must be viewed in the same context as the budget and the Government document Building on Reality 1985-1987. All three are interrelated and are really concerned with what the Government proposed to do about improvement in the economy and the public finances that essentially must be put right in order to provide the investment climate that will create the employment that will put the economy right. Economics sometimes tends to become complicated but fundamentally that is the challenge facing the present Government. Without in any way being pessimistic, I say that the Irish economy as a whole and the public finances are suffering at the moment in a vicious downward cycle of less investment, rising unemployment, reducing revenue and increased borrowing to finance current Government expenditure rather than capital investment. That scenario is not just the Fianna Fáil Opposition speaking. In The Irish Times of 18 March there was a very comprehensive article by an economist, Fionnuala Kennedy, setting out the very same theme, and yesterday in the Irish Independent a well known economic apologist for the Government, Sean Barrett of Trinity College, Dublin, spelled out the very same message that I have spelled out.

I believe in the expansion of our economy, but I do not believe in keeping one's head in the sand. I believe in facing up to reality, and Building on Reality 1985-1987 is a totally unreal document. The budget since that document was issued and the Finance Bill we are debating at the moment are suffering from this overemphasis on presentation and cosmetics and keeping expectations alive. I do not believe in doom and gloom any more than Deputy Carey does. I believe in expansion in our economy. I also believe in facing up to reality, and it is important to mobilise people to the point of view at present that things are very rough in Ireland and are being made rougher by a Government who seem incapable of developing the political will to deal with the problems, and so long as the Government show this incapacity to cope with the problems the figures will continue along the lines which I just mentioned.

The causes of the downward spiral to which I have referred are that investment will fall this year by over 1 per cent compared to the target originally set in Building on Reality 1985-1987, and Government spending will go up by 2 per cent to 3 per cent compared to the targets set out only last October in that document. Again this is not I speaking as a Fianna Fáil Deputy. These are the precise figures given by Mr. Sean Barrett yesterday in the Irish Independent. These budget calculations which we had under full debate and scrutiny in the House only three months ago and the taxation element which is now under discussion in the Finance Bill were based on unemployment figures of 217,000 for the year, and already those unemployment figures are running at 10,000 above the projected level. Emigration is now conservatively on a scale of as many as 50,000 people a year. These are the realities on which we can base sane policies geared to expansion and employment, but there is no point in hiding the realities in cosmetic exercises and ultra-emphasis on presentation which unfortunately we have had from the Government in recent months.

From the figures in front of me I can say that for the first quarter of this year total revenue is already at least £40 million below target, while Exchequer borrowing during the same quarter is at £834 million out of the whole year's target of £2,019 million. Therefore, we have this appalling figure of a downward cycle in regard to total revenue and, even worse, the appalling picture of 41 per cent of the Exchequer's annual allocation used up already in the first quarter. Side by side with this it is estimated that the PAYE sector for the whole of this coming year will pay £178 million extra. Again we have a downward spiral of fewer people at work paying more taxes to keep a declining economy in a decelerating state of imagined economic activity. That is the picture that emerges when one looks at the scenario of unemployment above what was projected, revenue below what was projected and borrowing above what was projected, compounded by a total investment that is dropping and Government expenditure steadily rising, all in relation not to something that happened a year or two or three years ago, but to conscious documentation emanating from the Government last October in Building on Reality 1985-1987and at the end of January this year in the budget. To cap all that, the only really sustainable aspect of our economic activity, our export performance and growth which is so essential to economic development and expansion will be only two-thirds of that envisaged in Building on Reality 1985-1987.

It gives me no joy to mention these figures but they are irrefutable and paint an unsatisfactory picture in which leading economists are ad idem with what I say and what I am spelling out here. The Minister is aware of the serious nature of the problem, and the question is what to do about it. In the few minutes at my disposal I would like to mention some aspects. What I am going to say is not new. It is contained in the Telesis report and in many recommendations that have been made by various people. Unfortunately, we suffer from a surfeit of analyses, but the principal recommendation that runs through the Telesis report and other analyses is that we want a taxation incentive regime oriented towards jobs, that in any industrial activity whether in manufacturing or the services we give special tax incentives related directly to jobs.

Too much of our aid both in the way of grant aid, loan aid and tax incentive aid, is geared towards the capital side of expenditure at present rather than towards jobs. Two industries which involve a high job content are tourism in all its aspects, not just the limited aspect to which the Minister addressed himself this year, and the building and construction industry in which already in recent times job losses of the order of 45,000 have occurred. Therefore, here are two areas involving a high labour content both areas in which there are unemployed skills available. Here are two industries where the Minister by introducing tax incentives and a regime to stimulate these industries can in an imaginative way do something to restimulate the economy in areas which have a high home produced input. I appreciate that that is not the whole picture and that the Minister can point out other aspects, but if one can draw comparisons between these two industries and other industries, one can see straightaway the high level of home input, apart from the high labour content, that exists. One is talking about home inputs of between 70 and 80 per cent in those two industries as against those in many other industries.

The Minister can say that last year he made an effort to stimulate activity in this area by introducing a section in the Finance Bill dealing with venture capital. He knows as well as I do that that scheme has not succeeded. We spent a lot of time debating it and I said that while the idea was excellent, the drafting of the section, its administration and interpretation would lead to the scheme grinding to a halt. This scheme applied only to the manufacturing areas; it did not apply to the service industries. On his own admission the Minister has spelt out the fact that in the last 12 months only two designated funds have been successfully launched. That is like having a pigmy doing a man-sized job. It is an appalling admission that after all that talk, debate and good intentions there were only two designated funds successfully launched.

I see similar difficulties arising from the Minister's idea of encouraging outside firms to invest their profits in Government securities by way of tax incentives. I hope it works out but I can see great difficulties arising. What we want are realistic concepts and the most realistic concept of all is tax incentive measures geared specifically to jobs. I would also like to see loans and State aid geared to stimulate more employment. I believe capital intensive industries can look after themselves but the industries which gear their operations to jobs require favourable tax relief.

We will have ample scope on Committee Stage to deal with matters concerning the economy. I agree fully with what is now the conventional view of the economists, that is, that the Government have failed miserably to grapple seriously with the problem and the basic flaw flows from lack of investment. Once investment starts falling——

Please conclude, Deputy Lenihan.

In the Public Capital Programme we had a foretaste of what was to come. The extra borrowing to which I referred and which has been so obvious in the first quarter of this year, unfortunately will be directed to meet a budget deficit largely designed to cope with a current expenditure problem rather than a capital expenditure problem. The dog is chasing his tail. He is moving in ever-reducing circles——

The Deputy must conclude. He has gone over his time.

I look forward to a stimulating debate on the relevant sections of this Bill. Let us try to do something about these problems rather than engaging in a cosmetic presentation exercise.

I thank the Deputies who contributed to this debate, both those with whom I agree and those with whom I do not agree. Like Deputy Lenihan, I look forward to detailed discussions of all these matters on Committee Stage. We will have an opportunity of teasing out the details of all the solid and progressive measures contained in this Bill that will have the effect which I indicated in my budget speech an in my opening speech and, I hope, of shooting down a great deal of the mythology in which the Opposition indulge on almost any economic debate we have in this House. Deputy Lenihan mentioned the Opposition's mythology on the business expansion scheme. I do not intend to go into detail on these specific points today but I intend to deal with some of the more general issues that have arisen.

Before I do that I feel I should say a few words about Deputy O'Kennedy's opening speech last Tuesday. On occasions like this, Deputy O'Kennedy seems to adopt a personal kind of approach to the debate. He seems to suffer from a certain inability to put up with a measure of calm on the part of the Minister for Finance. He spent a fair amount of his time complaining that I do not rush around wringing my hands and wondering what we are going to do next. I and this Government have adopted a far more rational and deliberate approach to dealing with our problems, an approach about which Deputy Lenihan has just complained saying we have a surfeit of analyses. The biggest problem with the Opposition is that the last bit of analysis they carried out on economic policy, as far as I can discern, resulted in the publication of The Way Forward. Ever since a few days after its publication, they have been running away from it as quickly as they could. I am not going to go on about Deputy O'Kennedy's rather personalised approach because I think, in charity, I should not after the excoriation he suffered here at the hands of Deputy Molony, not for the first time.

The broad impression I had listening to Deputy O'Kennedy in particular and the conclusion to which I came was that the Opposition are not in a position to make any substantial proposals of any kind in relation to tax reform. Deputy O'Kennedy has been seen on many occasions in this House waving the first report on the Commission on Taxation, but I have never heard him say unambiguously that he favours the approach set out in that report.

Neither have I heard him analyse what the effects of implementing the recommendations in that report would be. I had not heard Deputy O'Kennedy or any other member of the Opposition give any kind of systematic commentary on how our VAT system should be restructured. I find it amusing, to say the least, that an Opposition which cannot produce one single proposal on taxation reform can come into the House and have the neck to try to represent what we did in this year's budget, which was a substantial reform of the VAT and income tax systems, as tinkering around the edges.

This is nonsense.

Deputy O'Connell is welcome back. It is nice to see that after an absence of two years he is beginning to take some interest in the affairs of the economy.

I am sorry to interrupt but——

I should be glad that my few remarks have stimulated the Deputy to make some kind of contribution.

I did not hear very much from the Minister when he was in Opposition.

I will not be interrupted. Deputy O'Connell knows very well that when I was in Opposition he had occasion to ask me to restrain myself both in regard to what I said and the length of time for which I spoke.

The Deputy did speak on the debate.

It was never with positive proposals.

I do not believe in across the floor slagging. In this Bill there is substantial reform of the taxation and VAT systems.

And so say all the Labour Party.

I challenge the Opposition to produce any better proposals because during the course of the debate they have not produced even the shadow of an alternative way of reforming our taxation system.

The Minister must be looking for ideas.

The Minister has just challenged us.

The Minister has only half an hour in which to conclude. Please let him finish without interruption.

I do not propose to have my time interrupted by these mischievous interventions by Deputy O'Kennedy.

I am looking for clarification. Does the Minister want us to respond to the challenge?

That is the Opposition's decision. They had two and a half years in which to do so.

The Minister is talking to himself.

The Opposition blew it.

The Minister is looking for ideas.

They had a chance and they blew it. What did Deputy O'Kennedy do? He set up a commission and then he took their report but did not bother to analyse it. I am convinced that the Deputy does not know what the detailed implications of that system would be. In principle it is a good system.

For the record the first report of the commission did not appear until 12 months after I left office.

Please resume your seat, Deputy.

I feel very sorry for Deputy O'Kennedy.

Check the record. I never received the report.

As he said himself, he is in an agonising dilemma. He does not like it when I am in the House and he does not like it when I leave the House. There is nothing much I can do about that.

I was not there when that report was presented.

The Minister is playing games.

He is looking for ideas.

The ideas are all there.

The Minister is devoid of ideas. He did not bring them in.

The Deputy can vote for them and do a good day's work. This Bill reduces tax revenue for the tax year 1985-86 by comparison with what the revenue would have been if we did not make any changes.

The Minister applied the increase in the first place.

There are no two ways about it. That is the effect of the changes.

Reduce it by increasing it. That is very good.

Deputy O'Kennedy has failed to extricate himself from the trap into which he and his colleagues have fallen. As Deputy Molony remarked the other day, what Deputy O'Kennedy seems to want is a lower level of taxation. I agree with him about that. We should all like to see taxation substantially reduced. He wants a lower level of borrowing and I agree with that. It is a laudable objective. He wants a lower level of current budget deficit but not once in the course of the last two and a half years have I heard Deputy O'Kennedy speak about what the consequences of that would be for expenditure. He has never addressed that issue. The last time that was addressed by the gentlemen opposite was in The Way Forward. They have been running away from it since then.

We have a higher level of taxation, higher borrowing, a higher deficit and higher unemployment.

My colleague from Wexford last night sewed it into you even about educational expenditure. At a certain point, Deputies opposite got the message and steeled themselves to do something about it. They made assumptions about future growth.

The Government killed the building industry.

Since they saw the actual implications of those policies they denied they had anything to do with them.

When it is lower it becomes higher.

They have no credibility when they make that kind of point.

Ask Deputy Barrett all about the Government's credibility.

I heard that Deputy Haughey had some complaints to make this morning about my style of presentation. I find it rather amusing that there should be criticism of that from that source. I am glad to say that there are occasions when I act a little out of character. It seems to go down fairly well, even with the Opposition.

We are amazed at the cool hand on the tiller when the ship is going down.

Deputy O'Kennedy claimed that section 67 of the Bill means that the black hole is now official. That is a most extraordinary assertion to make. The section does nothing of the kind.

The Minister did not know about it until we told him.

We have been hearing about the black hole for almost a year. Deputy O'Kennedy seems not to have understood that what we did was identify and put lables on flows that have been there for quite some time——

The Minister ran out of lables.

——and which I am sure will continue to be there. It is in the nature of a large part of the operation of the economy.

The Minister is good at labelling.

Deputy O'Kennedy sees the taxation changes in the budget and in the Finance Bill as no more than tinkering at the edges. He is very much on his own in taking that view. They are radical changes and there has been general agreement among commentators that they represent an imaginative step forward.

Correcting your own mistakes.

The kind of procedure suggested by the Deputy and his colleagues is exactly what I would regard as tinkering around the edges — a little change here and a little change there, some increases here and some increases there. There was no plan except one to respond in a very narrow and ad hoc way to the problem. The Government decided that kind of approach was not good enough and we went for substantial reform of the income tax and VAT systems.

When is the Minister bringing it in? It is not in the Bill. The Minister is deluding himself.

Deputy O'Connell may not have re-acquired the habit of reading things in detail but a close examination of the Finance Bill would help him.

The sun is in his eyes.

Deputy O'Kennedy made a number of assertions and produced figures, allegedly to support his case, that the levels of taxation are steadily increasing. If you choose to compare forecasts of yields in 1985 with 1984 outturns, there is an increase. That would be the case for any two consecutive years you care to examine. That comparison is facile and totally beside the point. It ignores the other factors that operate such as inflation, growth in GNP, growth in money incomes and the general growth in the tax base. Consequently we can only come up with one result: the second year's figure is bigger than the first year's figure. That says nothing about the structure of the system. This year we are meeting the commitment we set out in the national plan to ensure that there is no overall increase in the level of income taxation. As I have said, we made that a central part of the plan and have provided to do just that in this year's budget and Finance Bill.

The figures I gave were the Minister's figures.

The Deputy completely misunderstands me. I am not saying his figures are wrong but that he made a mess of using the figures because they do not show what he thinks they show. He also stated quite categorically on more than one occasion that we have the highest direct and indirect tax levels in Europe. That is not true either. I want to make that point on Second Stage because we will not be able to come back to it on Committee Stage. I am quite sure that without difficulty I could find cases where particular taxes are higher in other countries than here, and cases where particular taxes are lower in other countries than here. Deputy O'Kennedy is well aware that we have one of the widest zero rate categories in our VAT system of any country in the Community. That is a factor in the structure of our tax system which gives rise to a requirement for a level of rates for the things that are in the VAT system. We have reorganised that system and we now have a far more rational spread of rates.

Denmark has the highest income tax and we have the highest indirect tax.

At the end of the day the only rational response to what the Deputy is now saying, if I can be a little colloquial for a moment, is so what? We are not dealing with the Danish, or the French, or the British population. It does not matter too much to me what their tax system is. Our tax system has to meet our requirements. That is only the beginning of the argument. Comparisons are of very little use when we are talking about economic policy. They are of limited use in some other areas but not for today.

A number of Deputies mentioned unemployment. We had the usual cant from Deputy O'Kennedy who seemed to find that I ignored the whole matter by using the word "unemployment" only once. The press and all the commentators are tired of hearing that kind of cant. We are ensuring that the course of economic policy is such as to get for us the maximum advantage out of the combination of circumstances which surrounds us.

That is wonderful jargon.

Deputy O'Kennedy is on weak ground when he talks about wonderful jargon. He specialises in it himself. There is more jargon than anything else in what he says.

Will the Minister repeat it?

Undoubtedly we have a very difficult problem to deal with. We are not making progress as rapidly as I would like, but nevertheless we are making progress. The increase in registered unemployment in 1984 was the lowest for five years and less than half of the rate of increase prevailing when this Government took office. The live register figures for the end of March this year were the best for many months.

Alice in Wonderland.

It is now becoming clear that this improvement in the unemployment trends reflects a significant easing in the rate of employment loss. In the manufacturing sector, the estimated fall in employment in 1984 was considerably less than that recorded in the previous two years. I expect that trend to be maintained during the course of 1985, given continued buoyancy in industrial output and in exports. Those policies we are following, set out in the national plan——

Does the Minister expect the same trend in the next 12 months as in the past 12 months?

If Deputy O'Kennedy would interrupt a little less and listen a little more he would not have any difficulty with the clarity of what I am saying.

I want to understand the Minister.

I said I expect we will continue to make improvements in the rate of job loss and in relation to unemployment as a result of the fact that industrial output in particular and exports will continue to be buoyant over the course of this year. The policies we set out in the national plan were framed with the objective of securing the maximum employment growth over the period of the plan and creating conditions which will allow sustained growth in employment to take place.

We also recognise that there are particular difficulties facing the long term unemployed. We announced two specific new measures, the social employment scheme and the alternate scheme to deal with those problems. I do not think anybody in this House could argue that we should not have particular regard for the immediacy of that problem. Deputy O'Kennedy proposed so many things that if we put them all together we would be hard put to see the end of the current deficit even using telephone numbers. He proposed quite a number of marginal changes in the taxation system. He suggested selective reductions in PRSI contributions in respect of additional employees. Of course, the Deputy is aware that for the third successive year there has been no increase in the rate of contribution to the social insurance fund in spite of increased social insurance expenditure.

That is not correct.

The scope even for selective reductions in contribution rates is very much constrained. Unless reductions of this kind are offset either by a reduction in social insurance benefits or increased Exchequer expenditure, the Exchequer being the residual financier of the Social Insurance Fund, corresponding increases in general contribution rates could not be avoided. Anybody making that proposal has to face that problem. If you bring about selective reductions in contribution rates you will have to make up for them somewhere. That must be an increase in rates of contribution for those who do not benefit from the selective reductions, or an increase in the Exchequer's input into the Social Insurance Fund, or a reduction in the rate of social insurance benefit.

The Minister left out or increased employment.

I am quite prepared to debate that with the Deputy. I am quite prepared to talk to the Deputy about the timelag between the introduction of a measure like that and its effect, if it has any, in actually stimulating employment, or output, or growth in any sector. The Deputy does not want to know about that. He does not want to know about any timelag. He pretends, as he has in other cases, that the effect is immediate and we know quite well that it is not.

I will be very happy to discuss it with the Minister on Committee Stage.

There are other more direct means by which the Exchequer can assist in the stimulation of employment. As an example, I will refer to the increased provision of £3.2 million in the Department of Labour Vote for this year for the employment incentive scheme which gives direct incentive payments for employers to take on additional employees.

They have £160 million in the Department of Labour.

Deputy O'Kennedy is a dab hand at shifting his ground when he does not like the course the argument is taking. The venture capital scheme was referred to on a number of occasions during this debate. I said last Tuesday and on previous occasions, and I repeat this afternoon, that it is far too early to make any judgment on the effect of that scheme and the progress we are making with it.

The Minister has two funds.

I have given the Deputy all the information he requires. It was not until January of this year that the tax relief actually became available. It was not until January of this year that the scheme could really get into operation. I am quite pleased that we already have two designated funds in operation in spite of the difficulty with the unit trust legislation which will soon be removed.

Deputy O'Kennedy would like the scheme to be expanded beyond manufacturing to other sectors. We have a number of service sectors already covered in it. To support his case he made the point that a job in services is as welcome as a job in manufacturing. Of course there is no argument about that. The scheme is about encouraging investment in risky ventures. We want to encourage, stimulate and give some assistance to people to invest in risky ventures. The further we widen the scheme, particularly in what one might call the classical type service sector side and the more protected industries, the more we will get people, not to put money into risky ventures but to put it into the safer ones.

That is nonsense.

The very purpose of the scheme is to pick out those areas of high risk——

The ones that may fail.

——small firms getting into the business of manufacturing new products. We want to concentrate the efforts there. That is why we have directed the scheme in this way. I have no intention of providing a tax break for low risk investment.

Heavens above, now we know.

I have already mentioned section 67 of the Bill. A few Deputies were very sceptical. Deputy Haughey remarked this morning, with Solomon-like wisdom, that this section was no substitute for industrial investment. Of course, he is right. That is the most self-evident statement I have heard for a long time and that takes some beating from the other side of the House. It was never intended to be a substitute for industrial investment. It was a measure designed to see——

The Minister is not interested in industrial investment.

——if we can retain funds that might otherwise go out of this country. As I said on Tuesday afternoon, I do not know to what extent this measure will have that effect, but it is worth moving in that direction to see if we can gain that result. I never presented the measure as a substitute for industrial investment.

The Minister does not even know what the scheme is going to be.

Anybody who makes a criticism of that kind is really scraping the bottom of the barrel to find something to say about it, when he cannot find anything really substantial to contribute.

When shall we have details of the scheme? Will it be by Committee Stage?

It will be before the House on Committee Stage.

Including, as I adumbrated on Tuesday afternoon, some possible further amendments, because I am still thinking about it. I am not rushing around like the proverbial headless chicken, trying to find out what to do next.

How can the Minister have amendments to a proposal which is not there?

Deputy O'Kennedy suggested at one stage that there are no tax incentives for research work in the corporation tax area. He is wrong about that. Rather than take up the time of the House I shall send him a separate note.

I did not say that. I said marketing.

Deputy Molony suggested that the exemption included in the Bill for inheritances between spouses should be extended to gifts. That is a point to which I gave some consideration. I shall make two points, first that the main concern behind the introduction of the exemption on inheritances was the protection of surviving spouses in relatively poor circumstances. On the other hand, if we were to extend the exemption to include gifts between spouses, it could be seen as and would be a concession that goes further than the concession that I wanted to make. It is a measure that I would not undertake.

Deputy Noonan, Limerick West, suggested that an anomaly had arisen where a farm is being transferred into joint ownership where one of the transferees qualifies under section 93 of the 1982 Finance Act. He suggested total exemption in such cases. I have looked at that matter and there is no anomaly. This is perhaps something which will come up on Committee Stage but the case is covered in that if there are two people, one of whom qualifies for the exemption and the other does not, the relief is given to the person who qualifies, in the proper proportion.

What about tax incentives for marketing? Is there any response to that?

We are running out of time, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, which is rather a pity, because there were a number of points made by Deputy Yates that I wanted to address in particular. I come very briefly to some of the remarks made by Deputy Haughey earlier on today.

The Minister has two minutes.

He was critical of the returns for the first quarter and I heard Deputy Lenihan making the same point this afternoon. Deputy Haughey predicts a large increase in the budget deficit for the year and questions the arithmetic in the end quarter figure. He should know better than I that the arithmetic in the end quarter figure does not leave any room for any kind of creative accounting. It is a factual statement of flows. It is not by any means a base on which one can confidently extrapolate trends for the rest of the year and, as I said on the publication of the figures and indeed last Tuesday——

This is too much. It is getting better all the time.

——I have no reason to be other than confident that we will be within the budget targets for this year. Deputy Haughey also came back to one of Deputy O'Kennedy's pups — the alleged deficiencies in our borrowing strategy.

The Minister never listens.

Deputies O'Kennedy and Haughey have never once, that I am aware of, addressed themselves to the realities on the international financial market.

The reality is over £19 billion.

Deputy O'Kennedy, please.

There is absolutely no point in my sitting over in Merrion Street listening to Deputy O'Kennedys' advice and saying that this year we are going to borrow in soft currencies, that I am going to borrow — if I can say it without giving offence to anybody — in pesetas for all our borrowing programme. The one sure result of that is that I would find out very quickly that nobody is lending pesetas.

The Minister will not be able to borrow potatoes, never mind pesetas.

Deputies O'Kennedy and Haughey would do themselves, their party and the general public a favour by educating themselves a little on the realities of international financial borrowing.

Is there no chance of having this stopped?

The Minister's time is up.

Would the Minister please stop talking nonsense?

I must apologise to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I want to thank the Deputies who contributed to the debate. I would be very happy to stop the nonsense for the Deputy up at the back there, but that depends on the colleagues in his own party.

It is very upsetting to listen to the Minister.

It is now 4.45 p.m. I am putting the question: "That the Finance Bill, 1985, be now read a Second Time and that motion 11 for a Financial Resolution moved by the Minister for Finance on 25 January, 1984 and motion 9 moved by the Minister on 30 January 1985 be hereby agreed to."

It is only proper that we should welcome the Labour Party back into the House. They have not been here——

Order. The Deputy is grossly out of order.

They do not know what is going on——

(Interruptions.)

They should know that they are voting for increased PRSI charges and levies——

Order. The Deputies should observe elementary rules of order. I have put the question.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 65.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George Martin.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Molony, David.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East)
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West)
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Edmond.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and McLoughlin; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and J. Browne.
Question declared carried.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

On 7 May, subject to agreement between the Whips.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 7 May 1985
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