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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 24 May 1985

Vol. 358 No. 11

Estimates, 1985. - Vote 39: Labour.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £163,415,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1985, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Labour, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants and grants-in-aid.

In the national plan Building on Reality the Government identified action on the employment front as the central economic and social priority. The plan outlined the broad strategy adopted by the Government to create the conditions for stimulating investment and generating employment.

While the vast majority of the labour force have jobs, the Government's main concern is for the significant minority who have not. We face a situation where labour force growth will continue to exceed the growth in employment. This means that the Government's direct job creation interventions through employment schemes must be intensified if the level of unemployment is to be reduced in the years ahead.

The present framework of manpower policy is based on the White Paper on Manpower Policy which was issued in 1965 over 20 years ago. The White Paper was drawn up against a background of economic expansion and growth in employment, not only here but in all the OECD countries to which Deputy Lenihan referred on the Order of Business. The emphasis in manpower policy was on adjusting the supply side of the labour market, the workforce, to suit the requirements of the demand side — the needs of industry.

The approach adopted in the sixties achieved that objective. It ensured that the skill needs of the economy were satisfied; it helped workers to benefit from the additional job opportunites which flowed from the industrialisation programmes; and it raised the overall technical competence of the Irish workforce.

The deterioration in the economic and social environment since the mid-seventies led to a number of additions to our manpower programmes, mainly in the form of special schemes directed at alleviating the worsening unemployment situation. These initiatives represented more a change of emphasis within the existing policy framework than any adjustment of the underlying policy geared to longer term labour market problems.

On my entry upon office as Minister for Labour, I undertook to put our approach to manpower policy under the microscope. New policy measures and new working methods are needed to cope with the demands created by the labour market. Last year I decided to initiate a review of the operation and implementation of manpower policy with a view to producing a White Paper which will provide a framework for action over the rest of this decade and throughout the nineties. In Building on Reality the Government signalled the significance of the emerging change in the labour force structure as between different age categories. An active labour market policy must respond to the needs of all those unemployed, but particularly unskilled persons over 25 years, who are least likely to benefit in the short term from renewed economic growth and expansion in employment. The funding arrangements for manpower programmes also have to be looked at.

A large proportion of domestic funding comes from the youth employment levy which is restricted to under 25's. This youth-oriented focus is reinforced by the EEC policy of denominating 75 per cent of ESF resources for programmes catering for under 25's. When allowance is made for the fact that by 1991 more than half our labour force between 15 and 64 will be concentrated in the 25-44 age group, the need to review funding arrangements with a view to adopting a more flexible approach in the allocation of resources is evident. The White Paper will, of course, take account of recent studies on manpower and related labour-market issues including the report of the Dáil Committee on Public Expenditure.

I already have had very constructive discussions with the representatives of the various manpower bodies and I intend to consult with representatives of both sides of industry shortly to get their views and suggestions. I hope to be in a position very soon to consult with my colleagues in Government about my proposals with a view to publishing the White Paper on Manpower Policy this year. In the year since I announced this major review of manpower policy, we have already seen a significant start in the direction of closer co-operation of institutional arrangements and towards greater decentralisation of decision making.

The problems encountered in managing the transition from school to work and in integrating and maximising resources at an institutional level between the educational and manpower agencies were examined by Deputy George Birmingham, in his capacity as Minister of State at both the Department of Labour and the Department of Education. The Minister of State identified aspects of the current institutional arrangements which can be improved and made a number of recommendations in this regard which have been approved by Government. The recommendations are designed to lead to greater co-ordination and collaboration between the various agencies which, in turn, should lead to a better delivery of services.

The completion of this review, and the follow-through on its findings should serve to allay many of the unfounded perceptions about the prospects for the young persons leaving our educational system each year. The main focus of the exercise was twofold:

—to ensure that support and assistance is readily available for young persons encountering difficulties in gaining access to jobs;

—to ensure that the significant resources committed to sustaining youth employment and training opportunities yield value for money.

With regard to the primary concern for co-ordination of effort, the report urged that the National Manpower Service be developed as the single user point-of-contact and that, it should act in close liaison with the Department of Education in identifying young persons coming on to the labour market who might have problems in adapting from education to working life. This liaison will be a key element in the implementation of the EC social guarantee which committed member states to do their utmost to ensure that all young people leaving compulsory education can benefit from a period of full time training and/or initial work experience of at least six months duration. I am satisfied that the implementation of the social guarantee, on the basis of proposals advanced by the Youth Employment Agency, will represent a model of the kind of co-operation and supportive relationships which can be established between the education and manpower spheres. The social guarantee has been introduced initially already in four trial areas, and will be extended to all early school leavers in September 1985.

The second major concern was to ensure value for money in the delivery of youth employment services. The evidence is there in the steps towards greater co-ordination and in the practical solutions which have been focused more heavily in the last two years on young persons entering employment for the first time. The heavy investment through the youth employment levy, following on the establishment of the Youth Employment Agency in 1982, has ushered in a range of opportunities and initiatives geared to youth.

I should say that the Minister of State's review was mainly concerned with existing arrangements and to see how best they could be improved. In the course of the review it was evident that a more fundamental examination of certain policies and institutions was necessary. This can be achieved only in context of the general review of manpower policy which, as outlined earlier, is at present in progress.

The National Manpower Service was set up at a time of economic expansion when the principal manpower problems were shortages of technological, management and craft skills. Placement was its pivotal function. The main activity involved placing job seekers in suitable employment and assisting employers to recruit employees at all levels from unskilled to top management. In view of the changed economic climate and the slack labour market, the whole focus of this service has been radically altered. The main task of the National Manpower Service today is to develop and administer the range of measures which the Government have adopted to sustain or augment labour demand.

Facing the challenge of unemployment remains a community-wide responsibility. Employers are still slow to respond by taking on jobseekers who are difficult to place in the open labour market and are reluctant to organise training which will benefit their own organisation and the individual employee.

Work is now in progress on streamlining the activities of the National Manpower Service. A wide-ranging process of organisational change and renewal is already under way. The consistent aim of this programme is to improve the efficiency of the Manpower offices. I have asked the management of the service to look to the scope for more simplified regulations, more efficient administration and delegated decision-making powers. Jobseekers, employers and community bodies must be able to obtain more rapid information about employment opportunities, recruitment assistance and the support available for job creation projects at local level.

As part of this service improvement programme, I have sought to ensure that contacts with manpower offices are made easier. I have arranged to have four new offices opened in Blanchardstown, Clondalkin, Dundrum and Swords, as soon as suitable accommodation is acquired. This will bring the total number of full-time offices to 48 and, in addition, part-time offices are operated as and when the need arises in more than 80 towns where there are no permanent offices.

Access to the administration and information services provided by the NMS begin at the reception point in local offices. Comprehensive display facilities are needed to highlight the basic facts about employment, work experience and training opportunities. Ease of access to this information frees the placement and guidance staff to devote more time to individual assistance to job applicants and more advanced counselling. I have directed that the occupational guidance service be more closely integrated in the delivery of the special measures designed to assist unemployed persons. I hope this will help participants to gain additional benefit from the programmes and schemes concerned.

A further stage in the process of streamlining manpower office activities and enabling the NMS to operate efficiently will be to introduce a computerised registration system throughout the country. A feasibility study has already been carried out and I have made arrangements for the extension of the existing provision in a number of the larger Dublin offices.

I envisage the entire network of offices having access to a corresponding system within two years. Computerisation should make it possible for applicants to be more rapidly informed of vacancies. In this way too, vacancies may be filled more promptly and reliably. The manpower authorities will be assured of more accurate data on registrations and programme activity and will be better equipped to follow up job seekers, and augment their information and counselling. This can mean shorter unemployment periods, shorter vacancy periods and substantial social and economic benefits to the community as a whole.

The centre of gravity, not just in this country, but in all other European Community member states has shifted from the transition from school to work to the continuing growth of the long term unemployed. By October 1984 persons in this category in Ireland numbered 86,500 or 41 per cent of those unemployed.

The incorporation in Building on Reality of novel interventionist measures such as the social employment scheme and the alternance scheme represents an important initiative in the interests of long term unemployed.

Manpower policy has to hear a heavy load in trying to influence labour demand in favour of these categories, and to alleviate the effects of imbalances in the labour market. Special intervention measures and schemes can be justified on the grounds that they make better use of economic resources. They concentrate resources on active measures providing the opportunity of "hands-on" experience of practical work and divert expenditure from the passive end of the employment services — the social assistance payment to the inactive and demotivated worker.

The social employment scheme which I launched on 22 February 1985, represents a positive Government response to growing concern for the plight of the long term unemployed, particularly those in the over 25 age group. The purpose is to assist the large number of productive and energetic persons who have been unemployed for an extended period to make a worthwhile contribution to the social development of the community.

The scheme offers part time work on a half weekly basis for up to 12 months to persons who have been unemployed for over a year and who are in receipt of unemployment assistance. Participants are paid £70 per half week in lieu of unemployment assistance with the facility to take additional employment during the remainder of the week if they so choose. Under the scheme public sector and voluntary organisations may submit projects for consideration. To be eligible, projects must be non-profit orientated, must respond to clearly identified community needs and must not substitute for existing employment.

I am pleased to say there has been a very positive response to the scheme from both the unemployed and potential project sponsors. To date the Department have received in excess of 20,000 inquiries about the scheme. The scheme is operated by the National Manpower Service who have received approximately 450 proposals for the scheme to date with an employment potential of 3,000 persons approx.

The standard of the projects already proposed is encouraging as is the level of response from a range of local authorities, voluntary organisations and individuals throughout the country who are anxious to promote the scheme in their own areas.

There are ten projects now in operation employing 165 people and a further 100 have been approved and will commence during the next couple of weeks, bringing to 850 the number of persons employed on the scheme. I expect the participation level to achieve its target of 10,000 within a year of its operation.

It is appreciated that getting insurance at a reasonable price is proving a major problem particularly for voluntary bodies who wish to avail of this and other schemes. Consequently the Department are having discussions with various insurance companies with a view to ensuring that insurance is available to potential sponsors in the voluntary category at a reasonable rate.

The level of youth unemployment in this country is now, with the exception of Germany, the lowest of any member state of the European Communities. This achievement must be seen in context, we have the highest percentage of young people in the labour force of any other member state, and the level of our overall unemployment is among the highest in the European Community but we have the lowest level of youth unemployment. This has not come about by accident. It can be ascribed to the efficacy of the youth employment levy and the expansion of the various measures of labour market policy aimed at channelling both the young persons and the hard-core unemployed into the open labour market.

In the current year about 69,000 young people will benefit from schemes funded from the youth employment levy. That figure only barely exceeds the number of young people leaving school this year. In view of the constraints on the public finance this high activity level could not have been made possible without the availability of the additional funds provided by the introduction of the youth employment levy in April 1982.

I have been encouraged by the results of the latest school leavers survey which shows that more school leavers have been finding jobs after completing their education. Again I must stress that a significant number of jobs continue to be available for school leavers. The survey also provides further evidence, if evidence is needed, that employment prospects are improved substantially by educational qualifications.

In 1985 the main thrust of the Youth Employment Agency's activities will be for the continued expansion of State aided training and work experience programmes for young people, the development and expansion of the community enterprise programme as the agency's primary direct job creation programme and the review of the present provision of training and other support for young people starting their own business. A total of £412,000 was paid out to community groups in 1984 under the community enterprise programme, and £3,620 million is being allocated for this purpose in 1985.

The agency has a specific responsibility to review the effectiveness of youth employment, work experience and training programmes. This enables the agency to improve the quality, content and targeting of the various programmes thereby ensuring that levy funds are more effectively used.

The activities of the agency in 1985 will also focus on the development of improved access to training for the disadvantaged through the extension of community workshops; the agency will continue to pilot new approaches on existing levy-funded programmes and are supporting the expansion of the vocational preparation and training programme of the Department of Education as a means of assisting young people in the transition from school to work.

The commissioning this year of eight pilot COMTECs will mark a further step towards the decentralisation of decision making and the local integration of planning, delivery and monitoring of youth employment services. The first of the community training and employment consortia gets underway in Cork this month and will be followed by start-ups in Donaghmede-Artane, Kerry, Laois-Offaly, Mohaghan, Sligo, Tallaght, Dublin and Waterford on a schedule that will run to February 1986.

School leavers and other unemployed youth will also benefit from the training opportunities in the hotel, catering and tourism industry provided by CERT. Over 1,300 trainees will pursue craft training at designated colleges throughout the country combined with periods of work experience in industry. In addition over 600 unemployed persons will be given a short training of ten weeks duration in CERT's Roebuck Centre and six temporary centres located in the tourism regions. CERT's considerable success in achieving nearly a 100 per cent placement rate on completion of courses is greatly assisted by its continued involvement with employers through its training services to the industry. The prospects for tourism, this year are such that CERT will have no difficulty in placing all the people participating in their training programmes and there is a demand for trainees at this stage. We are looking at the possibility of extending places.

Employers have a primary responsibility in industrial training but given the pace of change and the complexities of modern business, the State through AnCO has played a dynamic role in supporting and encouraging industry. This training is intended to improve the qualifications of job-seekers and, accordingly, their employment opportunities. In order to produce the best results, the range of courses is now being made more flexible. In this way training can be more rapidly adapted to new requirements and new techniques at work.

The White Paper on Industrial Policy issued in July last outlined industrial development priorities. My Department will ensure that training policy will be adapted in line with industrial policy particularly as regards pursuing priorities of strategic importance. I am heartened by the growing responsiveness of the training services to this, reflected in increasing attention to marketing, product design and small business training programmes.

Without detracting from the value of training provision for unemployed youths it is clear that a serious imbalance exists in respect of unemployed persons over 25 years of age. I have directed AnCO to substantially increase their training services for this category in 1985 given the fact that over 25 year olds represent the majority of those on the live register.

The alternance scheme was introduced as part of the Government's national plan, Building on Reality to address the needs of older workers suffering long term unemployment. This initiative by the Government is a response to the growing numbers who are unable to secure re-entry to the employment market and who are in danger of losing all interest and motivation in job seeking. It is hoped that the combination of training and work experience will enable jobless person to return to employment by providing them with new skills, greater flexibility and renewed interest.

While the alternance scheme will provide a new impetus to increase the training opportunities for over 25 year olds it will continue to be complemented by other efforts. AnCO are sensitive to the traditional reluctance of many older workers to consider training as an option during unemployment and are paying particular attention to tailoring appropriate courses for older workers. These include enterprise courses where previous working experience is reviewed and made the basis for launching out into new business and moving into self-employment.

Of course, as with all services funded from public expenditure, the availability of resources is an important factor in determining how far one can respond to identified needs. Increasing Exchequer funds are being made available for training programmes but the European Social Fund's changing criteria are limiting our capacity to respond to problem areas as flexibly as we would wish.

The modest Exchequer capital allocation for AnCO in 1985 reflects the successful completion of a nationwide network of 18 training centres in 1984. AnCO are confident that they can meet the training needs of industry and the unemployed with their present training centre capacity suitably supplemented by external training, workshop, mobile centre and community youth training programme opportunities. The response of community interests to the development of AnCO's LINC programme has been particularly encouraging. More flexible forms of training can be developed in response to community needs and conducted in new, more decentralised forms.

The National Manpower Service's work experience programme funded from the youth employment levy has been one of the most successful intervention measures to help young people gain practical work experience in a real work situation and thus assist them obtain their first job. Over half the young people who participated obtained permanent employment, many with the very sponsors who offered them the work experience. This year I have arranged that an educational element should be incorporated in the programme. A sum of £6.75 million is being allocated for up to 8,000 programmes during 1985.

A sum of £6 million has been allocated in 1985 for the continuation of the grant scheme for youth employment now known as Teamwork, following a joint review carried out by the Department and the Youth Employment Agency. Because of the diversity of the type of projects which have engaged the interest of local voluntary organisations concerned to provide temporary community-based employment for young people, my Department have already this year received a record number of applications for assistance. These are being processed at present and it is expected that the £6 million from the 1 per cent employment levy will allow for the employment in 1985 of approximately 3,000 young people on programmes of six months duration or longer.

The enterprise allowance scheme was introduced in December 1983 with the aim of giving unemployed people an opportunity to set up their own enterprises while at the same time guaranteeing them a certain weekly income for the first year. The scheme provides a weekly payment of £30 for a single person and £50 for a married person.

It became clear at an early stage that the scheme was generating a lot of interest and that many applicants required additional capital in order to get started. The Government decided that applicants should be allowed to capitalise their weekly payments to assist with start up costs, provided that the applicant himself was investing at least £500 in the project. I should stress that the sum of £500 can be in the form of capital assets such as a car or equipment as well as in the form of cash.

As a further incentive an applicant who is in receipt of pay-related benefit may capitalise his remaining entitlement, up to a limit of 26 weeks payments, in the form of a start up grant. This innovative aspect of the scheme will encourage individuals who may be in receipt of high unemployment payments to seriously consider taking a chance at going out on their own.

In December 1984 at the end of its first year of operation 4,774 people had left the live register to avail of the scheme. Of these, approximately a quarter were in the under 25 age group. The indications are that interest in the scheme is continuing into 1985 and I expect participation levels to hover at about the 5,500 mark through the year.

The enterprise allowance scheme is an example of a labour market policy measure which can prove to be lower in cost than the cost of unemployment and, without question, profitable both for the public purse and for the national economy as a whole. Enterprises have been established in almost every area of economic activity with groups of people forming co-operatives in certain cases. The scheme will inevitably lead to further spin-off employment and is currently being evaluated to ensure that the maximum use is being made of the resources available. The scheme will be reviewed in the light of this evaluation.

I restructured the employment incentive scheme last year in order to improve its efficacy as an incentive for the recruitment of the older longer term unemployed. In addition, the stipulation that recruitment be confined to two jobs per employer per annum had as its objective the limiting of windfall gains to larger employers, under previous schemes. Eighty per cent of recruitments under the restructured scheme are in firms employing ten or less employees. These adjustments have made the scheme more cost effective.

The extension of the scheme to the services sector has helped to augment recruitment, which I anticipate will be somewhere between 6,000 and 8,000 in 1985. In 1984 about 63 per cent of recruitments under the scheme were taking place in the services sector and a further 7 per cent in construction, a total of 70 per cent of all recruitments.

I have already referred to the question of the future funding arrangements for manpower programmes. The form and orientation of our programmes reflect not only domestic policies on maximising our resources, but also the influence of the European Social Fund and its structure.

The Social Fund has been of immense benefit in this country and the aim of the Department of Labour, which is the designated national agency for dealing with the fund, will be to retain Ireland's exceptionally favourable position as regards income from the fund. In 1984, despite the severe EC budgetary problems which affected the Community as a whole, Ireland was approved for £158 millions of aid which was 11.79 per cent of the total fund — our highest ever share. The allocations for 1985 will not be officially known until approximately July next, and I expect it to be in the region of £186 million or approximately 13 per cent of the fund.

I should point out, however, that I see certain danger signs that could affect our income from the ESF in the years ahead. Just as Ireland has been increasing its share of the fund through the Government's commitment to training and an efficient approach to the fund rules, other member states have been doing less well. With rising unemployment now affecting all member states and the resources of the Social Fund severely limited, there have been calls from certain quarters for a more "equal" share out of the fund. When Portugal and Spain join the Community, competition for Social Fund resources is likely to intensify and we will find it difficult to sustain our present very favourable position. The organisations who benefit from the fund must prepare themselves for the possibility that assistance may not be as readily obtainable in the future as it was in the past.

It is my intention to give a very high level of priority to our applications and claims on the Social Fund so as to maintain our present satisfactory level of assistance. I intend to review the record of our utilisation of the fund and to take whatever steps may be required to strengthen our hand in deliberations about the future of the fund at Community level. Our primary concern is to insist on the retention of a strong regional dimension in the fund and to see that its resources are expanded so as to ensure that the current level of receipts to disadvantaged regions is not diluted in the enlarged Community.

It is now over a year since the new board of Ostlanna Iompair Éireann was appointed to run the hotel group. In that time the board have made significant strides in tackling a very difficult task. A rationalisation programme has been agreed and implemented without any significant industrial relations difficulties and necessary refurbishment work has begun on the properties. In the latest report to me the chairman pointed to an improvement in performance in 1984 and prospects for 1985 are good.

The board's immediate objectives are: (i) to reduce operating and central administration costs; (ii) to increase revenue; and (iii) to restore the physical standards of the properties and maintain levels of service.

A refurbishment programme has been drawn up to be undertaken in the 1984-1985 and 1985-1986 winter seasons. A sum of £425,500 was provided in 1984 for this purpose. A further £2.553 million will be provided this year. This programme is well under way.

As you will be aware, my responsibilities as Minister for Labour extend not only to the promotion but also to the protection of employment. This is achieved by implementation of the existing legislation administered by my Department and the introduction of new or amending legislation where appropriate. In the course of the last decade or more, significant advances in labour legislation have provided assistance to workers by establishing standards and laying down a basic "floor of rights". In recent times the contrasting fortunes of the US economy compared with that of Western Europe has focussed attention on the concept of "deregulation" as a means to restore economic growth to previous levels. Although deregulation is a broad concept encompassing measures to eliminate rigidities of all types in all markets, worker protection legislation has become the prime target of many advocates of greater flexibility in our economy.

While I would not choose to ignore the argument that aspects of the legislative codes previously enacted for the protection of workers may no longer be appropriate to the Irish economy, it is important to view the employment disincentive impact of such legislation in its proper context. I would suggest that rigidities such as high payroll taxes, restrictive practices by trade unions, administrative costs of employment, etc. are far more damaging to employment. It would be naive to expect that a general "loosening-up" of protection for workers will, of itself, prove to be a panacea for all our economic ills and pave the way for a return to high employment. What is required is a co-ordinated effort to remove all unjustified obstructions to increased employment levels. In this context I would favour the adoption of a more systematic approach to identifying all forms of rigidity which might be standing in the way of increasing job opportunities and the better management and expansion of the production apparatus. Attention should not be confined to a single source of rigidity in a single market.

In implementing their economic policies Government must seek to ensure a proper balance between equity and efficiency. Looking after the interests of disadvantaged groups in the labour market and establishing broad equality of opportunity constitute social policy objectives which, in my view, must remain central to economic recovery and to improvements in the working of the labour market. Having said this, however, I am of the opinion that too frequently our response to problems in the labour market has been to rely on the law — to see it constantly as either the constraint or the remedy. For my part I have set out to adopt a clear stance on the role of legislation in the employment field and to concentrate on a limited number of priority areas which warrant amending legislation. The improvement of working conditions need not rely entirely on regulatory measures and requires a pragmatic and flexible approach to current problems. Many of the significant developments in both labour relations and the working environment owe little to legislative action, and are not necessarily amenable to such influence at all. My Department's sensitivity to any defects, difficulties or abuses encountered in working conditions is dependent on the quality of their relations with other parties in the labour market and with individuals or groups seeking assistance, and on our means of monitoring the economic, social and technological circumstances which affect the working environment.

In the last year a significant addition was made to the body of protective legislation, with the introduction of the Protection of Employees (Employer's Insolvency) Act, 1984. This measure was introduced in response to a disturbing trend in employment reflected in the number of firms closing down without notice, leaving employees with arrears of wages, holiday pay and other entitlements. The new Act which came into operation last November, but with effect from 22 October 1983, is designed to protect the entitlements of employees in such situations.

The Act is administered by the insolvency payments section of my Department. It covers arrears of wages, holiday pay and sick pay, entitlements under the Minimum Notice and Terms of Employment Act, 1973, the Anti-Discrimination (Pay) Act, 1974, the Employment Equality Act, 1977, civil court orders in respect of unfair dismissals, and outstanding contributions to company pension schemes. Payments under the Act from the Redundancy and Employers' Insolvency Fund amounting to £300,000 have been made under the Act in the period up to the end of April 1985. Claims in the pipeline and which will be paid over the coming months amount to about £1,500,000.

I have selected several areas for legislative action on the basis of priorities selected from a range of programmes conducted by my Department. These are: the Hours of Work Bill, currently before this House; a framework Bill based on the recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry on Safety, Health and Welfare at Work; better known as the Barrington Commission's report; a Safety, Health and Welfare (Offshore Installations) Bill; amending legislation based on the review of the operation of the Unfair Dismissal, Employment Equality and Worker Participation Acts; and amending legislation on foot of the current discussions on industrial relations reform.

I will deal now with the work safety and health system. The protection of people from accidents or damage to health at work is one area which exemplifies where and how a flexible and pragmatic approach can be adopted by Government. The analysis of our present system undertaken by the commission chaired by Mr. Justice Barrington is characterised by a certain distrust of legalism. The commission of employers, farmers, trade unionists and other interests cast doubts on whether safety and health at work can be advanced by an excessive reliance on detailed and increasingly complex regulations. I agree with this analysis and am moving towards the installation of the new system recommended by Barrington through legislation and regulations which will clarify central issues such as rights and responsibilities. These measures can have a catalytic effect as part of a broad approach, embracing education, information and participation, which will be designed to arouse awareness and leadership.

There are no soft options in dealing with safety and health at work. There is much that is disquieting about the present system — its low priority; inadequate information; gaps in professional expertise; little or no education and training programmes. Accordingly, I am giving priority in my Department to work directed towards the implementation of the Barrington Commission's recommendations. Already, significant progress has been made in the development of a draft framework Bill based on the commission's recommendations. The early finalisation of those proposals is one of my major legislative targets and, as I have already indicated, I propose to involve the social partners as closely as possible with the developments of my plans in this area.

Let me turn now to unfair dismissals. In the course of the development of proposals for amending legislation based on my review of the Unfair Dismissals Act 1977, I have been careful to maintain a balance between the entitlements of employees to continuity of employment and the operational requirements of employers. Recent research on the Act has not identified a negative impact for employment creation, but has shown that in fact it has benefited both sides of industry by raising the standards of personnel management and by improving selection procedures. The availability of redress has also helped greatly to reduce the number of industrial relations conflicts over individual dismissals.

In regard to employment equality, I am satisfied that there is scope for improving the effectiveness of the equality legislation by removing areas where inequalities — subtle and indirect, but quite significant — continue to exist. It is my intention to amend both the Equal Pay and Employment Equality Acts. The proposed measure will take into account the need for adjustments in the scope and coverage of those Acts and in the operation of the enforcement and adjudication procedures.

I propose to extend the scope and coverage of the Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Act. I have identified a further six State enterprises which will be brought within the ambit of the Act, I also propose to provide for the establishment of sub-board structures. To this extent the measure will be of an enabling character giving support to employee influence but not regulating in detail how decisions should be made or what decisions should be reached.

I shall now deal with current developments. I have established an Advisory Committee on Worker Participation to advise on the scope for development of employee participation at sub-board levels within different types of work organisations, to promote interest in practical experimentation in workplace participation and to identify research needs and make recommendations. The committee is headed by an independent chairman and is composed mainly of representatives drawn from both sides of industry. I am confident that the committee will provide an essential stimulus to action, more particularly in the private sector, where, tragically, to date there has been little or no progress in the area of worker participation and consultation.

I want to turn now to issues of positive action. During our Presidency of the European Communities I secured, in my capacity as President of the Social Affairs Council, the agreement of my ministerial colleagues from the other member states to the adoption of a draft recommendation on the Promotion of Positive Action for Women at our Council meeting on 13 December last. Prior to that, in November, the Government, on my recommendation, issued a policy statement on equality of opportunities between men and women in employment. The statement exhorts all organisations to issue a statement of commitment embodying the principles of employment equality and to provide the necessary encouragement and guidance to staff to implement that policy.

The boards of all State-sponsored bodies have been requested to adopt the policy statement and to institute appropriate arrangements to ensure its implementation. Progress is being monitored by my Department.

I now come to the major issue of industrial relations. The industrial relations picture in 1984 was a mixed one. With a relatively small number of exceptions, the 24th wage round has been largely free, like its predecessors, of widespread or large-scale industrial conflict. I should like to pay a tribute to and compliment both sides of industry who made that possible. For the first time perhaps since the late sixties or early seventies there was plant by plant, industry by industry bargaining by people who, so to speak, might have been considered out of practice in such procedures for a period of at least ten years.

Figures prepared by my Department show, however, that the number of strikes increased from 151 in 1983 to 191 in 1984, though the number of man days lost increased much less sharply from 311,000 to 364,500. These figures clearly suggest a significantly increased incidence of strikes involving relatively small numbers, or lasting for a relatively short period of time, or both combined. The causes of this would seem ultimately to lie in the many different strains to which the employer-employee relationship is likely to be subject at a time of economic retrenchment and rapid technological change. It is very regrettable that the friction stemming from these causes could not be more constructively handled in many cases. This underlines once more the need for the patient cultivation of relations of mutual trust between management and unions and the introduction of more developed and widespread procedures for information disclosure and consultation.

In regard to trade union rationalisation, the present situation where a large number of trade unions represent a relatively small workforce excerbates our industrial relations problems. The Trade Union Act, 1975, was intended to facilitate amalgamations between unions by simplifying procedures and making grants available towards the costs involved. The Act has not had the effect which was originally envisaged. For this reason I am considering the scope for improvements in the incentives available under the Act and have proposed the introduction of legislation to amend the Trade Union Act, 1975.

The role of law in situations where collective bargaining breaks down and industrial action is contemplated or takes place has always been a thorny issue, not just in this country but throughout the industrial world. Our law in this arena has evolved in a relatively piecemeal and ad hoc fashion to deal with particular problems. A consensus on industrial relations strategy should serve to sustain a more coherent framework. Finding a satisfactory institutional and legal mix which will have meaning and relevance in a dynamic society presents a challenge which compares with that which confronted our predecessors in the mid and late forties. My Department's proposals for industrial relations reform were published on 21 March 1985. The proposals covered the following areas: review of existing institutions; codes of practice; trade union structure; and minimum wage-fixing machinery.

The proposals provide for major and fundamental changes in our system of industrial relations. They suggest the replacement of the system of legal immunities which has been the basis of our trade dispute law since 1871, over a hundred years ago, by a system which would give workers a positive right to strike. The establishment of an independent Labour Relations Commission with statutory responsibility for the promotion of good industrial relations and for the provision of conciliation, advisory and other services is also envisaged. Since the publication of the proposals officials of my Department have held a number of meetings with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the Federated Union of Employers. While this process of consultation is both necessary and valuable, I have tried to ensure that the need for prompt progress is continually kept before all sides.

Let me turn now to the issue of information in the workplace. Knowledge of the basic principles of labour law is essential to those in management and trade union positions. I have sought to ensure that my legislative reform programme will serve to reduce the complexity of legal rules and prove accessible to al those directly involved in working life. Labour law — I think the Ceann Comhairle might appreciate this particular point — is not the exclusive preserve of legal practitioners but is a most important avenue for protecting workers' basic rights. I have lately taken steps within my Department to ensure that persons encountering problems in any particular area such as access to employment, dismissal, redundancy, etc. may be afforded a comprehensive information service enabling workers and employers who are experiencing difficulties in the workplace to use the system if they wish to do so.

Deputies will be aware that the first annual report of the Department of Labour was published earlier this month. Its availability as a record of the Department's administrative activities has given me the opportunity to address some of the more developmental and broader policy aspects of its work. I believe that the report will in future assist Deputies in reviewing the Department's work. I will endeavour to ensure that a similar publication schedule is adhered to in future.

I recommend the Estimate to the House.

I welcome the Department of Labour's first report. It is very helpful for us in Opposition to get the facts, figures and details in the one book. Every Department should follow suit. The charts and tables contained in that report saved one from having, as previously, to go through many annual reports. The report set out these details very clearly and I congratulate the Minister in that matter.

I also take this opportunity of thanking the officials of the Department of Labour with whom I have dealt for their help to me as Opposition spokesman in my first seven or eight months in this capacity. It is nice to find that in some Departments one gets co-operation. In Opposition one can get an alternative view from other Departments and be met with certain regulations put in by Ministers. I am glad that the Minister for Labour has not done this. It hinders one in Opposition, particularly when acting as Opposition spokesman and some of the Minister's colleagues, male and female, have not been of help.

Over the years when Estimates for Labour have been discussed employment comes up as the key factor. In many ways that causes one to wonder, because the powers of the Department of Labour to control in any major way what happens in the employment area are not so great. That Department are involved in side aspects of employment, but are regularly accused in debates in this House of not doing the job of eliminating unemployment or in some way controlling the many job losses. On the other hand, the actions of other Departments directly involved, such as Industry and Trade, appear to go almost unnoticed. The huge expenditure from those Departments, which could influence the employment potential and influence manufacturing and modern technology, is not closely examined. It is within industry, trade and agriculture that the real employment potential lies and not in the Department of Labour.

The legislation with which the Department of Labour are involved and over which they act as watchdogs is not legislation for creating jobs. They have the role of trying to secure existing employment and to provide a training programme for our workforce. This is to make sure that when jobs are available there will be people with the necessary techniques and knowledge to take up these positions. For that very reason I am glad that the Minister has undertaken a review of manpower policy. That will put the minds of many people to work on where the problem really lies. The manpower policy with which we have worked for 20 years, following the commission of a report by Seán Lemass in 1965, is very irrelevant today.

I said recently that one would have to look at the background papers of the 1965 manpower report. The policy document itself was only a little over two pages. It was a small White Paper that set out the necessary points in a clear and concise way. I was glad to hear the Minister promise that the various drafts of the manpower policy will eventually be produced in a slimline version. The issuing of huge manuscripts — all talk and chat with no real action — is not what we need.

In that short, concise report in 1965 they said that agencies such as AnCO and the National Manpower Service should be set up to get ready for the jobs that would become available. I suppose they were right. In 1964 and 1965 an all-party committee of this House was set up and when we read the findings of that committee we realise that we should congratulate our colleagues who were aware of what was happening. They saw that in the following six or seven years things would go well, that there would be considerable employment, that there would be major changes in industry and that technology would start and develop.

However, we are now in a different period of time. The world has changed considerably in the meantime. AnCO, CERT and other agencies are frequently blamed for not having succeeded in creating thousands of jobs. That was never their function. They were set up to provide training schemes so that management would be able to take people as quickly as possible into the workforce.

I have great respect for AnCO, CERT and the other organisations. I have visited the various plants and I have seen what they have achieved. They have done an extremely good job and the figures in their annual reports and as set out by the Minister today point to the success of the agencies. However, to a great extent they have outlived their usefulness. There is no demand today to train people, left, right and centre for jobs that do not exist. Even though the organisations may not publicly admit it, many of them realise that their schemes have outlived their usefulness.

AnCO have a modern plant in Loughlinstown but that plant was built for an entirely different purpose. Originally it was intended for an apprenticeship scheme. Some time ago we had a debate in this House regarding the various employment agencies. It is unbelievable how misinformed the public are, if one is to judge by the many letters one receives. It is also unbelievable the extent to which a speaker can be misquoted. I was glad that the various agencies studied what the Minister and I said on that occasion. They have written to me, as I am sure they have written to the Department, setting out their views on various points I made.

It is important that the public be made aware that AnCO are not an employment organisation, that their function is not to create 70,000 jobs for the young unemployed. They are there to help and to train people for the modern plants we hope to bring to this country. The Department of Labour are there to oversee that they carry out their functions and that they stay ahead of technological developments so that Ireland can remain as a country that is attractive to foreign industrialists. The objective is to have a workforce that is trained to cope with the modern technological developments on which the future of Europe and the world depends. People should realise that we are not attempting to abolish organisations. When this becomes obvious to them the new manpower policy will become accepted to a greater degree.

If I have to criticise the agencies for anything it is for this over-protectionist attitude. They appeared to regard the report of the Committee on Public Expenditure as an attack on them and they got their various sections at work to defend themselves. My point is that many of the agencies have outlived their usefulness. We need a manpower policy that is modern and that will deal with the nineties and the next century, rather than still trying to cope with the sixties and the seventies which are part of history.

It is my view that the management of the various organisations should be composed of one body. The way they have grown into large monsters, all doing their own thing and growing away from the Department, is not a desirable development. In my view one board would be enough and if that could be achieved the duplication that exists in the present arrangement would be avoided. There could be clear policy decisions made by the Department and the manpower authority who could then inform the various agencies. Those agencies should be departments of the manpower authority, not separate institutions as they are at the moment.

In 1981, when I was spokesman for youth, I said that the Youth Employment Agency, even though we were giving them much greater powers, could do very little that could not be done under existing legislation. The YEA, as is the case with other agencies, have done very good work; but I cannot see why they cannot work together. I should imagine the Minister is thinking along the same lines because he appointed the chief executive of the YEA as chairman of AnCO. I am sure the Minister must have had in mind the hope that in the end there would be one organisation which would avoid duplication. The YEA have come back to me in the last week setting out why I might have been confused about the COMTEC and the LINC programmes. I think it is they who are confused. Certainly I am not confused about the matter. They are duplicating various services and they tend to operate in areas where they may not be absolutely necessary. The trial schemes that have been set up by the YEA and AnCO will not stand up to any scrutiny that there is not duplication between them. If the manpower authority are to be of any use in the next ten years they must be one agency where policies will be clearly set out. It is not a case of trying to get rid of chief executives but it is to ensure that they all work towards achieving the same objective.

The Minister this morning gave details of the various schemes available. I do not object to any of those schemes in principle, but a closer examination could be undertaken of some of them. About two weeks ago I read into the Official Report details of the schemes involving CERT AnCO, the Department of Labour, the Department of the Environment, the Department of Education, the VECs — all of which are endeavouring to help young people and give them some element of hope. Glossy brochures tend to attract people, inferring that perhaps a particular course is meant for them. It is not for me to say that we should not continue those types of courses, but certainly many of them could be streamlined. There is a certain amount of money allocated to those under the aegis of manpower and the work experience programmes. Then there is the enterprise allowance scheme whose object is to establish new businesses, which has been successful and one that has operated successfully in other countries also.

In Cork, where I and the Minister have been on a number of occasions recently on the social employment scheme trail, many people see the enterprise allowance scheme as affording them an opportunity to continue practising the skills they have built up over many years in companies such as Ford and Dunlop. Nowadays there is no room for large sheet metal companies, fabrication or textile industries, industries that formed a large element of the employment content here in years past. As has been proved in other countries, there is plenty of room for industries employing five to ten people. Such industries could thrive in those areas.

When those participating in the enterprise allowance scheme reach the end of their first year, is there any way that those facilities can be extended for them? This is a request that has been put to me on many occasions. I am not advocating an open door approach to that scheme, but there might be some mechanism devised whereby a small firm or business could be rendered viable by such an extension. Surely that would be beneficial to all concerned. I am not talking of people who are just seeking another few pounds in order to keep going in some kind of employment for another six or nine months. I mean cases where an extension would lead to a viable small company rather than a person going back on the dole queues and being totally frustrated. The Minister might at least consider that aspect.

I accept that Teamwork can be very helpful. In that respect I would ask that the Minister's officials be fairly flexible with regard to the definition of community-based projects because I know that a few in my constituency have encountered difficulty securing approval from the Department. I can understand that some of the cases advanced would appear to be fairly meaningless or would not lead to long term employment. But one must understand the problems of the inner city, where there is no future anyway, with major deprivation and low educational standards. It is important that people there be involved in some type of community project whether that be removing graffiti from walls, perhaps by bringing old people in wheelchairs to hospitals or just calling on old people. I know there were difficulties experienced in relation one project, St. Agatha's on the North Strand. Such a scheme is worthy of implementation there without creating a precedent in middle or upper class areas.

A year ago here I said there were many abuses of the work experience programme. The loopholes to which I referred then would appear to have been closed. I am glad to note that people are not allowed to continue to avail of its facilities without giving some employment and that where people were made redundant work experience has ceased within a reasonable period. That had led to an otherwise good idea losing public support.

In other cases the work experience programmes have operated in the opposite direction. For example, I know many Members of this House who previously availed of the facilities of the work experience programme for various staff, paying part of the rate for secretaries but who were refused. I do not understand the logic of that. Perhaps it is viewed in the light that there is no hope of getting a full time job in working for a Deputy, because it is unlikely that a Deputy could afford to pay them. But the practice that obtained here did help; and when I was Chief Whip I had the experience of working with many of these people and being responsible for them while they were in this House. It was amazing how successful six months work with a Deputy was because, while a Deputy might not have been able to give a person a job directly, he had considerable influence. I am not advocating cheap labour for Deputies, but working in Leinster House or constituency offices does not constitute an abuse of that scheme. I know that Deputies on all sides of the House went to considerable trouble to get employment for people under that scheme and were highly successful. It was not a case of just bringing people in here and then throwing them back on to the scrap heap. Anybody who works in this House, whether they be Deputies, officials or House staff, know that it is not a place where one can idle. I mention that as an area with which I am familiar. Perhaps there are other areas also in which the work experience programme could be reinstated.

The Minister mentioned several legislative areas he was endeavouring to deal with. In replying the Minister might give us a brief report on how the provisions of the Employees Protection Act are operating. In this respect I would pose one question: in the case of the Irish Shipping staff who lost out on pensions can the provisions of that Act do nothing for them? They were State employees and, as we heard yesterday, it would entail fairly small amounts of money to reinstate them on their pre-liquidation rates. Is it possible that they be compensated under that legislation?

On the question of industrial relations, I welcome the establishment of an Industrial Relations Commission. I agree with the Minister that there has been much effort on the part of the FUE and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions in the past year to revert to free collective bargaining. It is interesting that a recent study by the UCD industrial relations department showed clearly that national wage agreements, such as we have had over the last ten years, do not automatically lead to a reduction in the number of strikes. If one studies the statistics closely one could well argue in the opposite direction. It is my opinion that free collective bargaining constitutes the best process of maintaining good industrial relations on a company by company and knock by knock basis.

We must improve our procedures and structures and get away from the "them and us" mentality which is still evident among almost any group one meets. It seems to be always a case of complaints about management trying to pull a quick one or the FUE saying the unions do not want to co-operate. This is not a worldwide problem. It was chiefly a difficulty in Ireland and England, but it is now particularly the case in Ireland. I know how they cured it across the water but I should not like to think that we would cure it in that way.

Industrial relations can succeed if the trade union leaders move away from the siege mentality in dealing with their counterparts. Money should be spent on courses to give trade union representatives the expertise they need to deal with industrial relations on a sensible basis. The last thing they should think of is strike action. On the other hand, management should not treat personnel managers as if they held low priority jobs. In every other civilised democracy where there is free collective bargaining, the person who deals with people on the shop floor is of senior level and his job is to talk to people and explain why decisions are taken. For too long the opposite approach has been adopted here. People manage by diktat and implement decisions which are not ultimately in the interests of the company. Trade unions resent these practices and it leads to an unhealthy mistrust.

Only a small proportion of strikes take place in the major companies but the major proportion of man-days lost is in the large firms. During the seventies 1.7 per cent of the total number of strikes took place among the large firms but these strikes accounted for 64 per cent of the man-days lost. One might ask how a small firm could afford to employ an industrial relations manager at a salary of £30,000 a year but the large companies can well afford to do so. Obviously it would be in their interests to cut down the enormous number of man-days lost through strikes in their enterprises. I do not know what any Minister for Labour can do about it but there should be a strong obligation on these large firms to employ proper management techniques so that their procedures are clearly explained to shop stewards and unions.

Managers will say that many unofficial strikes are caused by lack of organisation and management by the trade unions and their lack of response to their own members, as well as an inability to act quickly enough. I was a shop steward myself in the early seventies. I was a somewhat irresponsible person, so I cannot blame others. Because there was no heating in the office I led an unofficial strike for two days until portable heaters were supplied. I did so because I was unable to contact the union on the telephone for about a week. That type of strike is due to lack of organisation by the unions and is very damaging to the country. Foreign industrialists looking at Irish companies and examining our strike statistics will not invest here. With the accession of Spain and Portugal to the EC we will be up against tough opposition because investors will go to those countries where labour is not organised. There is an absolute obligation on the FUE and the ICTU to sort out the procedures and practices that will be adopted.

I welcome the setting up of the Industrial Relations Commission. The Minister mentioned that they already had a number of meetings. There are many items which are not mentioned in the industrial relations' reform document which has been issued and perhaps it is wise not to draw the wrath of various people before anything is achieved. The thorny question of unofficial strikes and the damage they do to the economy must be dealt with by the commission. The damage to our image internationally is more than we can afford.

Last October the social employment scheme was announced in Building On Reality and it created great expectations among the long term unemployed. Eight months later the Minister announced that only 165 people are working under that scheme. I know there are difficulties but responsibility rests with the Department to solve them. I do not know whether the problem is with the trade unions or with the National Manpower Service whose staff feel they are totally overworked and that reorganisation is necessary within the service. I would agree with the latter point. It is disappointing that five months into the year only 165 people are employed under a scheme which was to create 10,000 jobs in the first year of operation.

While officially the scheme was not announced until February, we were told in October that there would be no undue delay in getting it into operation. A major drive must be made to give hope to the long term unemployed and I will watch closely the operation of this social employment scheme. I supported it when it was first announced and subsequently but it is disappointing that it has created such a small number of jobs. I am aware of the problems relating to insurance but it must be tackled. Since the Government have so many stakes in various insurance companies, perhaps pressure can be put on some of these half nationalised companies to come up with a solution.

Are those people who have failed to get unemployment assistance because of the income of their family entitled to participate in the social employment scheme? If they are not I am sure there is plenty of money in the scheme, following the allocation of a huge amount of money in the Estimate, to allow them into it. A number of people have told me that they were excluded from the social employment scheme. Those people were unemployed for more than a year but, for one reason or another, they could not prove they were on the register. I gather that in all 14,000 or 15,000 people are in that category and I am sure that the social employment scheme could be amended to allow the few involved in. I do not think that change would affect the operation of the scheme.

If the fear of the trade unions is that the social employment scheme is replacing the environmental works scheme, surely the regulations that applied to the latter could follow in the social employment scheme. In that case unemployed union members listed in the union registers could be included in the social employment scheme. It is a little unreasonable to say that because there are no environmental works schemes there will not be any social employment schemes. We would end up not having environmental works completed and no people employed. We would not be achieving anything by that cat and mouse game. I hope the Minister will tell the House of the latest stage of negotiations with the trade unions on that issue.

I should like to refer to the extension of the role of employees in semi-State companies. Will the Minister tell the House the companies he has in mind? Will he tell us of the outcome of the discussions with the VECs. Strong representations were made by the staff of VECs that they should be permitted to play some role in the running of those bodies. Vocational educational committees will change following the local elections and this is an appropriate time to consider a change in the composition of those committees. The staff who play a major role in the work of VECs feel isolated because they are not entitled to have even one member on the committees. I am not necessarily referring to the teaching staff. I made a commitment to staff to permit their representatives to participate in the committees. The Minister should not allow this opportunity to pass.

I should like to deal with the question of dangerous substances. Last January the Dangerous Substances Advisory Council prepared draft regulations to implement an EC directive on this matter. I should like to know the position about those regulations. I accept that the draft is a mighty document and it will be interesting to know if it will see the light of day this year. Many organisations are concerned to see those regulations implemented. I am sure many people in the Minister's constituency, like those in most parts of the city and in areas through which ammonia is transported by CIE, are concerned about the movement of dangerous substances. Through the summer months this is a matter of concern in the many housing estates through which railway lines pass. Although there have been one or two worrying incidents, fortunately, none of them was serious. I have no doubt that if a serious incident occurs the regulations will be implemented overnight. We should not wait until a tragedy occurs. The matter should be dealt with immediately.

With regard to offshore drilling, I have had discussions with many people involved in that work. I should like to know the position in regard to the safety regulations and standards for offshore rigs. What is the position with regard to the findings of the Whiddy Tribunal? I understand that at Whiddy and the various drilling positions around our coast, particularly off Waterford, we do not have safety regulations in operation. That is all very well for as long as we do not have a tragedy but in that event we would have inquiries and tribunals costing millions. I do not understand why we spend so much money and effort holding inquiries that produce comprehensive recommendations when it takes so long to get action on them.

I have had discussions with trade unions about legislation dealing with redundancy payments and unfair dismissals. The principle of one's job as a property right first achieved expression in our laws under an Act passed in 1967. Under that an employee was entitled to some form of compensation by virtue of being deprived of his right to continue his employment. I have always said that that was one of the most important measures put through the House, particularly when one thinks of the number of people who have suffered due to closures or liquidations. There has been no amendment to the legislation passed in 1977 that provided redundancy lump sums in spite of all the redundancies that occurred and the fact that it has been on top of the agenda in all union negotiations. That has meant that the whole question of extra-statutory redundancies has come into play.

Under the present system an employee qualifies for a redundancy lump sum as an entitlement calculated on the basis of a half week's pay per year of service given under 41 years of age and one full week's pay per year of service over 41 years plus a further week's pay, subject to a maximum which is reviewed every now and then. At the moment the maximum is £211.54p. In these difficult recessionary times with many company closures packages have been negotiated much in excess of the minimum statutory entitlement. An increase in the minimum entitlement is necessary and I am sure the Minister will agree with that. Will the Minister consider proposing that the distinction give to service under and above the age of 41 be abolished and that the basic minimum entitlement be one week's pay for each year of service, subject only to the maximum reckoned weekly pay? Will the Minister consider making the full amount of the redundancy lump sum negotiated by or on behalf of a redundant employee which exceeds the statutory sum free of liability from income tax in the same way as the statutory sum is at present?

In too many cases people who have spent several years of their working life with a firm and who do not have an opportunity of getting back into employment are being taxed. I am aware of a number of cases in Cork where former Ford workers were taxed on the sum in excess of their statutory limit. That sum is now being calculated and those people are having difficulty with social welfare officers. I have made representations on behalf of a number of those people and set out in detail how the sum in excess was taxed. I have also outlined what this has meant to them in regard to unemployment assistance. I was not aware of this until the Transport Union and the Congress of Trade Unions in Cork outlined to me how the Department calculated it. This applies particularly to a case like Ford where most of the workforce served perhaps 30 years and are now in their fifties with little chance of getting a job. A lump sum of about £30,000 may seem good, but it is not so good when one considers that the receiver will probably never work again. Within a matter of about two years the most thrifty of these people may find that they have nothing left. When one considers the lump sum three years further on, taking into account tax payments and discrimination against the person by the Department of Social Welfare, the big lump sum becomes negligible. Where future closures are imminent the workers should be advised that it is only a good idea to take a lump sum where they are sure they will get further employment. With unemployment running at 250,000 and emigration rampant, it is unlikely that a person who has been made redundant will obtain employment.

In relation to the equality of treatment for women, all the legislation in the world will not change some attitudes to women. It is hard to see how legislation can cover every case. I fully support the implementation of the Anti-Discrimination Act, 1974, and the Employment Equality Act, 1977. There is still a lot of discrimination in a male dominated society where some people work the regulations and find every loophole to discriminate against women. Such discrimination is not as prevalent nowadays as it was before the introduction of these Acts; and I know that Sylvia Meehan would not allow anything to pass and that her vigilant staff are highly successful in having the provisions of these bills implemented in State agencies. The same does not apply in private industry. At least once a week I get letters from people who feel they have been unfairly treated in employment.

Recently, many people were shocked because of the discussions on unfair dismissals. One of the things which came to light recently was the huge volume of cases now being sent to a third party. Many of the cases are obviously referred to a third party because it is a handy way to quieten a person and pass the case on to somebody else. Another matter highlighted recently was that somebody could appeal an unfair dismissal case to the courts. I hope that avenue will not be resorted to just as a matter of course, as that was not the intention behind the Act. Perhaps the Minister would look at the Act to see if an amendment is necessary. Before the recent publicity people were happy to accept the decision of the Employment Appeals Tribunal, but now I fear that people will be more inclined to appeal the decision to the courts. All the publicity surrounding the recent case that went to the courts has awakened people to the fact that they can appeal to the courts. This trend could develop into a very costly exercise as people would see this as another road down which to pursue their lost cause. The statistics prove beyond doubt that a lot of people referred to the Unfair Dismissals Tribunal would not have to be there if they had accepted good advice in the first instance. The right of appeal to the Unfair Dismissals Tribunal is necessary but I fear that this recent case could set us off into another futile exercise.

The Minister could do far more than is being done at present in the Department of Labour to promote a well trained highly skilled workforce ready to take the opportunities when they arise. If the Government subsidised labour and not capital there would be many more changes. I have mixed feelings about giving incentives to attract major companies. The rise in the economy in America and Europe has come about because of the development of small companies employing ten or 20 people. That is were our future lies. It is a mistake to pay about £60,000 per job to attract big companies. We need a certain number of large companies and we have them. It will become increasingly difficult to attract multinationals because the investment potential will be in Spain and Portugal for the next ten years. We should endeavour to hold on to what we have and through research and development to extend our expertise and knowledge.

In relation to attracting huge multinationals, we should only pay incentives on the basis of the jobs delivered and not, as we do now, on the basis of the projected number of jobs. Major companies came in announcing a potential for a huge number of jobs but the reality has been quite different. A company called Hyster in Blanchardstown have proved themselves. They have given employment, so they should get priority. A lot of the high technology companies coming in have been assisted with a huge amount of money by the Government. If half of that money were used to help small business people to employ four or five people they would deliver much quicker than the bigger companies.

We should not be slow to follow the example of the rest of the world. I know that the IDA have extended their small industries division. However, one hears advertisements from the ICC and the IDA on the radio every morning and from those advertisements one would think that all one had to do if one had a good idea that would provide ten jobs was to lift the phone and one would get a grant.

I have files on small business men who have great ideas, who have patents from organisations here and abroad. They have specifications from management consultants saying they cannot go wrong. They have letters from the bank saying that, if the IDA will back them, they will also back them. They cannot convince the IDA. If you come from Ohio or Chicago, you smoke a cigar and drive a Rolls Royce, you can get away with anything. We have seen too much of that. We should stop talking about changing, and change the system.

I ask the Minister for Labour to use his influence and to convince some of his more right wing colleagues around the Cabinet table that subsidising labour is not a mad socialist, communist theory. This is happening under the Reagan administration, which is as right wing as you can get. Encouraging small industry was not just thought up by people trying to get small industries off the ground in this country. It has created ten million jobs in America in recent years. The facts and statistics are there and can be got from American State Departments. It is in that area that we can really develop job potential.

The Minister's allocation this year has taken a huge leap. I did not come in here this morning to criticise that and say the Department are not worth the money. The Department of Labour have an important role to play in helping young people and in creating jobs. This may not be the appropriate time to go into the whole area of the problems of youth. The problem is being dealt with in the wrong Department. It should be dealt with in the Department of Education or in a separate Department. The Minister of State, Deputy Birmingham, is trying to provide youth services and community services. I welcome the money being put into those services. We need to develop youth services. At a time of large scale unemployment we need community centres and sporting complexes. We are a great people for spending millions of pounds on trying to solve problems after they arise. We never spend money on prevention. Money invested in youth centres and sporting complexes is to be welcomed.

I do not know what the Minister intends to do with the huge over-allocation for the social employment scheme. The figure is almost £30 million. Perhaps the Minister will tell me later whether that will be diverted to another area in his own Department. Obviously the Minister will not reach the target he set for the social employment scheme. What other projects are there in the Department? I suggest that the Minister should provide another five of six major youth project centres in Dublin, where we have the highest rate of unemployment. I will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say. Perhaps he will tell me what he thinks the actual outturn figure for the social employment scheme will be.

I want to thank the Minister for his co-operation. I find if difficult to get co-operation as spokesman for the Department of the Public Service. I have to deal with a different gentleman whose Department is set for disaster. I keep telling him that, so I have to say that I find the Minister and his officials cooperative. I wish him well in the important job he has to do. I would prefer to make constructive suggestions rather than to act in a negative way as I am forced to do in relation to the Department of the Public Service.

I welcome this Estimate for the Department of Labour. The sum is £163.415 million. Over the past few years most Members of the House have stressed the importance of ensuring that sufficient funds were made available for the various agencies operating under the Department of Labour in the area of youth employment, training, and so on. I welcome any increase in funding for those areas.

I was interested in Deputy Ahern's introductory remarks regarding the possible overlapping of some of these agencies. He said that perhaps some of them have outlived their usefulness. I do not agree with that at all. Times have changed dramatically since those agencies were set up. They were intended basically to train people for the large number of jobs which would be coming on the market. That situation has been reversed. Nevertheless, the role of the agencies is more important now than ever before. I say that because of the large number of people who are unemployed, both young and middle aged. I stress the absolute necessity of ensuring that agencies are available on an ongoing basis with expertise and funds to provide training courses and temporary employment.

For a long time I have felt that it is more important to have training places or temporary employment available for all of those people who are unemployed than to provide them with unemployment benefit or assistance. I would love to see the time when we could offer training or temporary employment facilities to everybody who becomes unemployed. If we are really serious about the problem of unemployment, that is the way we should be looking at it. Employers and employees would, I think, accept the desirability of having a minimum national wage right across the board, so that when people lost their jobs they would have an immediate opportunity to enrole in a scheme with training facilities. This would enable them to fulfil themselves and to contribute to society at large. Probably we would not have so many crime and vandalism problems if we put more emphasis on that area. I do not want to go on too long about it but it is extremely important.

I welcome the increased allocation for the Minister's Department. I should like to emphasise the need for continued increases in those areas. I am a little concerned at the Minister's reference to the possibility in future years of greater difficulty in getting money from the EC Social Fund on the basis of there being areas of greater need in Europe. I accept that but having regard to our fledgling economy, it is vitally important that we continue to stress the unique structure of the unemployment problem here with particular reference to the age factor. Every effort should be made to ensure that in future the country continues to get a considerable slice of the Social Fund. It would be dangerous for us to adopt the attitude of accepting any degree of resistance there might be in the future to a continued increase under the Social Fund heading.

It is interesting to note that by 1991 about 50 per cent of the labour force — those between 15 and 64 — will be between 25 and 44. There will always be large numbers of people requiring retraining and some type of temporary employment and this is the case especially at a time of economic recession. Despite reservations as to whether money spent in some quarters has always been spent wisely, the vast majority of the youth employment schemes and other such schemes have been tremendously important, first, to the economy and, secondly, to those who are involved in them in the sense that it gives them a worthwhile purpose in life and a way in which to occupy time that would otherwise be devoted to no useful purpose. Many people in this House have suggested that the number of people unemployed is considerably greater than the official figures, that if those involved in youth employment schemes or in training or who are temporarily employed were included in the register, the number would be much higher. That is true but is it not far better both for the country and for the people concerned that they be given the opportunity of retraining or of being temporarily employed? Many of the schemes are extremely beneficial environmentally. I am thinking of the schemes to restore the canals or to improve public open spaces, for instance. All such schemes are of benefit not only to the country as a whole but to those participating in them.

Therefore, I would not agree with much of the criticism that has been voiced in regard to the various agencies who are trying desperately to cope with the huge unemployment problem we have been experiencing in the past five to seven years. These agencies are doing a reasonably good job in very difficult circumstances and we should give them every support and encouragement possible. The ideal situation would be that everyone who was unfortunate enough to become unemployed would have the opportunity of embarking on a retraining scheme or of finding part time employment with the help of any agency assisted by the Government. That would be a lot better than condemning them to the unemployment register whereby they would have no hope either of improving their own position or of improving the country or the environment. Ultimately that sort of situation leads to discontent and frustration and that is dangerous both for the institutions of State and for society generally.

I compliment those involved in the AnCO link schemes. Much of the criticism to which they have been subjected in the past couple of years is unjustified. These agencies move into an area and absorb totally in their assessment the available workforce. They undertake a very good assessment of the capabilities of the people concerned and can claim a fairly high degree of success in terms of placements. Only last evening in my constituency I was present at the launching of an exhibition that resulted from an AnCO link scheme. I was amazed at what had been achieved and at the expertise shown in the production of the various manufacturing techniques and in the provision of various services. Some of the ideas were extraordinarily simple, so simple that one would ask rightly why they had not been thought of before. These AnCO link programmes have triggered off in the minds of participants an awareness of what is required by the community. It was very encouraging to find so many young people and some not so young who had become unemployed, who had not even begun to work, embarking on projects thought up by themselves and providing commodities for which there is a market or services for which there is a demand and accomplishing their task with the guidance of the people operating the course. Another benefit that accrues from those schemes is that the interest they generate will continue for a long time and, consequently, more people will follow on the same lines.

Deputy Ahern mentioned the difficulties experienced by some small business people or potential small business people in trying to set up enterprises. That has been the experience generally but it is unfortunate because, as the Deputy said, in the case of a potential large investment from outside the State perhaps, usually the proposals are reinforced by high power submissions by way of accountants, management studies and so on. Those investors are in a far better position than the small businessman to present their case to the IDA or other job creating agency. By virtue of the size of some of those corporations they will be in a position to make very strong submissions. I agree with the Deputy that perhaps some of our home based, fledgling agencies find it difficult to compete in the making of submissions. I have made this point on a number of occasions. Rather than expecting someone who has been unemployed for the past 12 to 14 months to put forward a high-powered submission for a project that requires financial assistance, an effort should be made to simplify the system. Instead of carrying out a study which could cost thousands of pounds, perhaps a preliminary evaluation could be made in a more simplified form with the co-operation of the Department of Labour. I know that there is some assistance available already but it could only be beneficial if that was done.

I welcome the introduction of the computerised register for the National Manpower Service. Every Deputy who holds clinics knows of the need for some kind of central register. When a person comes to a clinic inquiring as to job prospects and so on, sometimes one wonders where to write to and if Members of the House have that difficulty it augurs badly for the unfortunate young person who is unemployed and who has probably had many refusals of employment. It can be soul destroying and difficult for young people in that kind of position.

Approximately 41 per cent of the unemployed or 86,500 people are long term unemployed. That is a staggering figure and it is very difficult to accept that we have such a high number of long term unemployed. It should be possible to give them some further assistance through the schemes outlined by the Minister and which are under the aegis of his Department. The longer those out of work are left on the unemployment register the more difficult it will be for us to reach a stage where people will respect authority and the institutions of the State generally. This category of people represent a time bomb. They require a great deal more attention than they have received to date.

It could be said that the unemployment problem is so big at present that it is not realistic to bring about any great improvement in the short term. That may well be the case. I am aware of the difficulties but to have such a large proportion of the unemployed in that category is dangerous for society. I refer back to the increase in violence and crime and the general disregard for people's property and the institutions of State. If we do not tackle this problem in a meaningful way we will have greater problems to face in the years ahead. It does not make any great difference if we build prisons which are twice as big as those we have or if we have twice as many islands off our shores to deal with the increase in crime. If we do not address ourselves to the problem of the unemployed we will not solve the problem of crime and violence.

I welcome the social employment scheme and hope there will be maximum take up of the places available. There is a tremendous amount of work that could be done by statutory and voluntary bodies under that scheme. It would be very sad if maximum utilisation was not made of the places available. Deputy Ahern was of the opinion, though he did not state it, that there would not be full utilisation. There is obviously sufficient work available to be done and sufficient money to do a great deal of it. There are a large number of people who would be well qualified and it would be very sad if for one reason or another the scheme did not receive the type of support it is hoped for. Now that we are half way through the year it might be no harm if a further evaluation was carried out to determine to what extent we can improve participation in the scheme.

As has already been mentioned by the Minister, a great deal of work has been done by the Youth Employment Agency in relation to youth employment. The figures speak for themselves. This country now has the lowest level of youth unemployment in Europe with the exception of Germany. This is due to a great extent to the efforts of the Minister, the Minister of State, the Department and the Youth Employment Agency. The agency has been criticised from time to time and a great deal of it has been unjustified. Very few people will give credit where credit is due. I would prefer to see money being spent providing young people with something worthwhile to do, whether it be temporary employment or training, rather than have them confined to the unemployment register, which is soul destroying.

CERT is another area which has been attracting young people. The amazing thing is that they have a placement rate of almost 100 per cent. I wonder if the general public are aware that their success rate is so high. Knowing the training programmes and the way that CERT trainees are catered for generally, I fully accept the figures. It also highlights that the market in that area can be extended. It is largely a service industry, which would complement tourism. In the current year 1,300 trainees will pursue courses and there will also be a further 600 short term training places of about ten week's duration. Even the short term courses are of tremendous benefit because they are often the spark which starts the fire of awareness of the trainees' own potential and a possible market for their services if they complete the course successfully. From speaking to constituents involved in that type of industry it appears to be highly remunerative, which is a hopeful sign. I strongly urge that a greater awareness should be created among school leavers regarding opportunities which might arise through the pursuit of courses in CERT. Ultimately they might even be in a position to set up their own businesses. Some years ago most young people expected to find jobs when they left school, but that does not happen any more and many young people recognise that they can do more for themselves than anybody else can and they are quite prepared to set up in business given the right kind of encouragement.

Deputy Ahern mentioned the difficulties faced by the small entrepreneur in competing with large corporations for the financial assistance which is available. This is often very demoralising, and young people find it difficult to get through the mountain of bureaucracy which they encounter in trying to get aid.

The work experience programme is also highly successful. This year it will provide places for about 8,000 people who might otherwise be unemployed. While there were abuses of this programme in the past, they have now been stamped out and there is further room for expansion of the scheme, on the basis that it is far better for the country that young people should have an opportunity of embarking on such a scheme rather than being confined to the unemployment register.

The Teamwork programme is the latest to come on stream. It is a useful contribution because it will employ about 3,000 young people in the current year. This will ensure, to some extent, that school leavers will become involved in activity which will be beneficial to themselves, rewarding to society and which does not cost a great deal of money. The sum of £6 million is money extremely well spent and I should like to see the scheme extended in the future.

The enterprise allowance scheme is not too long in existence and by the end of the year it is hoped to have approximately 5,000 people involved in it. It is one of the most innovative schemes to be introduced for some time and I hope that those who participate in it will be able to start their own businesses. It might be worthwhile to see how the participants in the scheme are getting on towards the end of their 12 months period because the success or failure of the scheme will depend on continuity of employment. Perhaps this could be improved in future years, because the amounts of money payable to the individual are not vast and I see no reason why there could not be an extension of this scheme.

I also wish to refer to the area of industrial relations. Considering the number of strikes and man-days lost, it is time to appeal to employers and employees to explore all avenues before a strike is called. In the present economic climate we should be able to carefully examine and exhaust all avenues before we lose valuable time and energy through strikes. The country just cannot afford it. However, I am not blaming workers or management; each has a role to play and we must try to improve on past performance. We should try to ensure that as a result of strikes we do not have a loss of contracts and orders, with damage to the economy. I am not saying it has reached crisis proportions in recent times but, given the state of the economy, I do not think we can afford such luxuries.

I welcome this Estimate. Many people may criticise the spending of a fairly considerable sum of money in this area, but in my view this money is being spent for a very good purpose. Any time money can be allocated to agencies prepared to provide training courses or short term job opportunities for the unemployed it can only be good for the economy, for the morale of the unemployed and for the environment, from the point of view of the work carried out under those schemes. Unless we have a greater emphasis on providing courses under those schemes, in the short term we will not be able to make any worthwhile impact on the large number of unemployed. In my view, this is the most realistic way to do it and it behoves us to support these agencies.

Cuidím leis an Meastachán seo atá ós comhair an Ti. The bulk of the expenditure under the Vote is for salaries, expenses of the Office of the Minister and payments of certain grants and grants-in-aid. The figure of £163,415,000 on anybody's calculations is a sizeable amount of money. I wonder how much value the country is getting for that expenditure from the Department and the two Ministers?

We all appreciate that there has to be training and retraining. This is especially needed in modern times because of changes in technology. I emphasise that this is desirable and necessary in view of these changes. However, training and taking part in courses that do not have sustainable employment at the end achieves little or nothing except, as has been said, that it is better to have people trained and retrained. But that is only a half way measure. We ought to be revising policies, systems and directions so that these people will have sustainable employment. The problem is that these schemes which have achieved little or nothing seem to satisfy the Government but they give an untrue picture of the real numbers of unemployed. Of course, it helps to show that the figures of those officially registered as unemployed are on average less 20,000 a year, because these people are being trained and retrained. All these schemes cost millions of pounds, but they are making little or no difference to sustainable employment because we are not providing jobs for the people when they are trained.

I want to emphasise that what I am saying is not a criticism of the people running these courses. I compliment the people involved in the schemes of training and retraining young people, and indeed the not-so-young who need to be retrained in the event of suitable employment becoming available. They are doing their best, but the responsibility of providing the incentive and the encouragement, so that jobs will be available to these people when trained, surely lies with the Government. We must direct all our efforts to that end.

We are aware of the amount of high technology industry this country has attracted. When we were in office we set our sights on procuring those high technology industries which today are contributing so much to our exports. It is very important — in fact it is absolutely essential — that that policy be continued. We must be careful, however, that we do not continue training people for training's sake.

The Department of Labour has two Ministers, a Minister in the Cabinet and a junior Minister. Not too long ago one Minister had the responsibility for the Department of Labour and the Department of the Public Service. Now we have two Ministers with responsibility for one Department. I want to compliment the Government for deciding that the Department of Labour needed two Ministers, but there the matter finished as far as the effectiveness of the two Ministers and the effectiveness of the Department within Government was concerned. Is it not time that the Department of Labour and those two Ministers provided this Government with the impetus and policy direction needed so that our serious unemployment problem could be tackled with a view to eliminating this social evil?

I am asking both Ministers and the entire Department to stand up and be counted, to accept the responsibility which is theirs and extend it from merely having the Youth Employment Agency — certainly, this is a good organisation — and other agencies. They must address themselves not just to employment but to unemployment. They must encourage their Government by whatever means. Surely the Department of Labour has all the services, guidance, reports, everything that is required to put a new emphasis on such an important Department as this. The importance of this Department was realised by the Taoiseach when he separated it from the Department of the Public Service, appointing two Ministers to the Department of Labour. If ever the Department and the Ministers were required to assert themselves, it is now. Unemployment figures for the last couple of years have manifested the need for the Department to wake up to their responsibility and to get the Government to wake up to theirs.

We on this side of the House, and particularly our leader, Deputy Haughey, realising the seriousness of the mass unemployment we have had over the last couple of years, and realising that high unemployment is not the natural order of things and should not be left that way, indicated to all and sundry our commitment by appointing somebody, who turns out to be myself, to the area of employment. We ask the Department and the Government to view the unemployment situation with the same seriousness and commitment. That is why the main thrust of my contribution is along these lines.

In a recent debate, the work of the various agencies and their effectiveness were outlined. Some Members felt that perhaps there were too many agencies. Like many others I was pleased that in the debate on that subject the Minister — and, I am sure, the Government through him — accepted our motion that there be one authority to control, co-ordinate and gain the best results from all the efforts of the various agencies with regard to the present employment-unemployment situation. Having accepted that motion, the Minister and his Minister of State should take the matter a step further and, since they have the expertise and advice available, address themselves fully to the unacceptable level of unemployment, with all its inherent evils. If they do so, they can count on the full support of this side of the House.

We have heard from the Government of measures aimed at improving labour market conditions in times of recession and population growth being seriously restricted by the necessity to implement policies geared towards adjusting public finances and external payment balances. The whole country heard that; it is on record. These platitudes and commitments were given out many times before the last general election. Are they saying that we must have this massive unemployment, while they try to balance the books and reduce foreign borrowing, meanwhile promising to discontinue budget deficit increases? All these commitments, promises and proposals have been abandoned. They were pie in the sky, unobtainable during the reign of this Government. Nevertheless, the people and the economy have suffered by this supposed emphasis on the reduction of foreign borrowing.

It will not be much good for the Minister of State or for any member of the Government to trot out the old cliché that that is something which they inherited. That has worn so thin with the public that it is not there any more. The Coalition have been long enough in Government now. Let anyone calculate over the last 11 or 12 years how much time the Coalition have been in power. What the bloody hell have they done about it, except public relations exercises——

The Deputy should moderate his language.

I accept that, a Cheann Comhairle. The language being used by people to express their views on the situation has often been a little more intemperate. Nevertheless, I understand the position. I have to be temperate, but it is not easy in the circumstances.

The Government say that notwithstanding these restrictions they "have established the appropriate economic structures which are aimed at securing the environment for economic regeneration through proper economic planning and management." That is nice phraseology. However, I have not seen any results, and I doubt if the country at large has, from these nice proposals.

In an effort to present matters in a better light the Minister has stated — and I quote from the Estimates debate in the Official Report on 16 June 1983, col. 1964:

These structures are centred on the Cabinet Task Force for Employment which brings a co-ordinated and integrated approach to the problem and also ensures that the competence and expertise available in the State are fully utilised.

Two years later what is there to show for these task forces? That question will be answered, not by me or by speakers in this House. I am confident that it will be answered very fully by the voters on 20 June.

In the same debate, the Minister continues:

These programmes have been expanded rapidly in recent years to meet the twin objectives of maintaining a dynamic labour market and making some reductions in the level of unemployment.

That is one of the long litany of promises and commitments from this Government, but how much of that has been achieved? Is the situation not even worse now than it was when those commitments were entered into? The Ministers and the Government must acknowledge absolute failure in this regard. If anybody else has any other conclusion, I should like to hear it. We are all aware that the real figure of unemployment at this time is close on the 300,000 mark. We know about the figures we get from the CSO but we are also aware that many thousands of unemployed people are not registered. I have already indicated that, while training schemes are going on and while there is temporary employment, a reasonable estimate is that 300,000 people are unemployed.

With all the facilities available to us to produce statistical data it is amazing we have not as yet had a figure for the number of people emigrating and seeking employment elsewhere. From information I have gathered from Irish societies and from USIT, I put it to the Minister that about 30,000 people have emigrated in recent times. The Government's plan, Building on Reality, indicates that there will be 226,500 people out of work at the end of the plan. However, we are all too sadly aware that the unemployment figure was off target by as much as 13,000 one month after the publication of that document. Goodness knows what it will be like at the end of the period unless the Government wake up to the real situation and build on that rather than on the supposed realities indicated in the plan.

There are no plans for reducing the numbers out of work other than the schemes we have talked about already. In recent months the number of unemployed has spiralled upwards and the closure of factories has continued unabated. What has happened in my city and county has been mentioned so often that it is hardly necessary for me to restate it. We did not need much from this Government. We needed a ferry from Ringaskiddy to Britain, whether it be Swansea, Liverpool or the south of England. Yes, we got a ferry last week, but it only went from Spike Island to Haulbowline. We want more than that from the Government. That is only one item. We were promised legislation for the free port area, and that is something the Government could have done. They may tell us it was not their fault that some of the traditional industries in Cork closed. We did not say it was their fault. They went around the world claiming they were going to provide alternative industries, but all of them came home empty-handed. I do not want to bore the House about what has happened in Cork during the period of office of this Government but it would be remiss of me in a debate like this not to refer to what is happening in Cork.

In recent months the closure of businesses has continued. The incentive to work has diminished. Much of this is due to the impact of high taxation, both direct and indirect. Personal investment in risktaking enterprises is treated less favourably for taxation purposes, and that is a mistake. Increased employment depends on a sustained growth in manufacturing industry. In the past four years we have suffered 28,000 job losses in manufacturing industry, an average of 7,000 per annum. Many jobs could be created in the services sector and in the small businesses sector to complement and to run parallel with activity in manufacturing industry.

I put it to the Government that action must be taken on a number of fronts to improve the climate for enterprise and to restore the incentive to work. Everything hinges on that. I realise we must be constructive in our criticisms and not merely point out the difficulties. It is my conviction that the main solution lies in the rate of investment on projects that will yield an economic return. There will be increased investment only when firms and individuals are confident that they can get an economic return for their investment, a return sufficient to take account of the risks involved and the cost of borrowing money. I ask the Government to introduce policies and programmes to take account of that. I am quite satisfied that funds are available for productive investment.

We must raise our sights. We must have the confidence to create the necessary environment to encourage investment. I have no doubt that given that task in Government we, as we have done in the past, will create the necessary conditions to encourage investment in industry. Then, management and workers will respond and get on with the job of increasing wealth in the economy.

If this Government had recognised the reality and created an environment more conducive to the needs of the nation, unemployment would not have risen to the dreadful level of today. That figure is bound to have an effect on the many young people who are sitting for examinations at this time or who are finishing their courses in the RTCs. It must be having a dreadful effect on them. This summer over 4,000 third level students have applied to USIT and the American Embassy to get a few months work in America. That is the reality of the situation in which we find ourselves.

This issue must be addressed quickly. That is why I repeat that the Department of Labour must fulfil a role in Government, spelling out to the Government, indicating to them that the present situation does not motivate employees but rather reduces incentive and willingness to work. This Department must make their presence felt. They have the power to do so and they should use it in the interests of all those in employment in order that such may be secure and in the interests of those who are unemployed and employable. By asserting their position they must offer them, and also second and third level students some hope. There is strong acceptance by our people that this Government are willing to preside over the present economic debacle, an acceptance that one is worse off today than one was two years ago and that one will be even worse off in two years time, with nobody in Government having the imagination to do anything constructive to rectify that situation. I am pinning my hopes, those of my party and of the people, on the Ministers and their Department, that they will assert their authority in the matter of employment and unemployment. The fundamental issue to which this Government must face up is whether they are prepared to take the road of development, incentive, encouragement or continue their present policy of reverse gear, cutbacks, controls, stagnation——

The Deputy is moving away from the main thrust of the debate.

I am making passing reference to the employed and unemployed.

The youth employment scheme, the social employment scheme and the many others with which we have been dealing, are merely bandages to hold the pieces together, temporary, stop-gap measures, leading only to frustration and further depression. Additional efforts must be made to integrate what is known as the black economy into the normal economy. There is no point in being negative continuously. We, when in Government, went some way along that course by implementing selective cuts in certain areas and they were effective.

I will deal now with some of the more direct involvements of the Department of Labour and refer to the redundancies that have taken place over the past two years. In 1983 the figure was 29,915 and in 1984 it was 31,290. I might pose the question, has any study been undertaken on the impact of those redundancies on employees and employers alike? Has any examination been undertaken or corrective measures implemented to redress some of the imbalances and anomalies being experienced by employees who find themselves made redundant? We have had a large number in the city of Cork because of which public meetings, attended by public representatives, have been held and efforts were made to establish contact with various Ministers. Some success has been achieved. Surely the Department of Labour are aware — and if not they ought to be — of the many problems, apart altogether from losing one's job, and the anomalies that have been encountered by employees and their effect.

It is time the redundancy legislation programme, call it what you will, was studied, examined and updated in the light of experience. In the June 1983 debate on the Estimates for this Department we were promised a review of the Unfair Dismissals Act, 1977. The Minister then indicated that he hoped to be in a position to introduce a Bill in the next Dáil session providing necessary amendments in the light of the operation of that Act. At that time he expressed confidence that the amending legislation would improve substantially what is inherently good legislation. There were many other promises made as to the protective aspect and general conditions under which workers were employed, the employment equality legislation, the Protection of Employment Act and many others. But that was two years ago. Where is the progress? To put it very mildly, it has been limited, almost nil. I would urge the Department to place emphasis on easing the transition from school to work, on flexibility, mobility, better matching of skills to opportunities. Links between industry and the educational system are vital and require immediate concentrated effort.

While I accept that to date the responsibility of the Minister and his junior Minister has been in the general employment sphere, that has been rather limited. While they have responsibility for youth employment, training and all the agencies referred to, it would be impossible to make that reference without also referring to the overall employment scene. That is why the thrust of my contribution will be directed at the unemployed rather than those in employment. We are all too well aware that the position has deteriorated and is deteriorating. That trend is disturbing. That is why I emphasise the necessity for a broadening of the scope of the responsibility of the Minister and his Department and the direction in which they should be moving.

For instance, I might refer to the lack of progress in the area of safety in industry. Indeed, in asking Ministers to broaden the scope of their responsibilities I am wondering if I am asking too much. There has been a lack of progress in the area of safety in industry. In 1980 Fianna Fáil established a commission to examine the whole area of industrial safety and the eminent Mr. Justice Barrington was appointed chairman. In last year's debate there was a passing reference to Mr. Justice Barrington. The Commission went into great detail on the matter and produced a report. How much of it has been implemented? I note that in his speech today the Minister made a further reference to Mr. Justice Barrington, but the inactivity of the Department, which has two Ministers, is too much to take. They have a role to play which they are not fulfilling. I am very disappointed that the many recommendations made in the report have not been implemented. The report established that there were between 11,000 and 12,000 industrial accidents per year and 30 to 35 fatal injuries in factories, construction sites and quarries. The figures may be different now by virtue of the number of people who have become unemployed. In agriculture it was estimated that there were 30 fatalities per year. In fact there are no reliable estimates as to the number of accidents in agriculture, forestry, hospitals, laboratories etc. It is a frightening position.

I now refer to the problem of absenteeism. It was stated this week at a conference in Dublin that one-third of absenteeism is related to intoxicating drink and that alcoholism in industry is costing the country £200 million. What is the cause of the other two-thirds? Would the Minister of the Department like to comment on that? Many references to absenteeism create the impression that much of it is unnecessary or the fault of workers. I do not believe it. Without the proper reporting of the situation by the Department, is it any wonder that the media put such a slant on it?

The Barrington report also indicated that there were between 150,000 and 200,000 first aid category accidents each year in industry. I would ask the Ministers to address themselves to this problem. What are the Department doing about noise levels in industry and the impairment of vision caused in some industrial situations? The Department are responsible for a whole range of activities but they would want to put the boot down. I am loading more work on the Ministers but they ought to be capable of doing it.

We have been hearing about the legislation for worker participation but there has been no progress since we left office, despite the fact that the process was initiated by us in Government and that all the relevant data have been compiled. Why is it not being put into effect by this Government?

Some of the extracts from the OECD report are relevant to this debate since it has much to do with employment. The report states that Ireland faces a bleak economic outlook. This verdict coincides with the news that exports took a tumble in April and plunged the country into a balance of trade deficit of £105.9 million. The report predicts a gloomy future because of Ireland's huge debt and poor prospects for the recovery of private industry. According to the report the country now has proportionately the biggest debt in the 24 nation OECD. For the last two and a half years the Government have been pursuing a policy to take account of one of the main planks in their election programme which was to reduce foreign borrowing. The OECD report states that the Government debt now stands at 128 per cent of gross national product, the highest figure in the OECD. The organisation said that the employment outlook in Ireland was also particularly bleak. It is because of that comment that I indicated that the publication of the report was timely.

The OECD report stated that in December 1984 the seasonally adjusted unemployment rate was over 17 per cent, with the young especially hard hit. The students I referred to earlier will have some nice reading to absorb if that is quoted in our national newspapers. It is sad to read in the report that about one-third of the jobless in Ireland are under the age of 25. The report states that substantial progress was made between 1981 and 1983 in correcting external and internal imbalances in the Irish economy but this slowed last year. It stated that the public debt, and the rapidly growing burden of interest payments absorbed——

That is a very prolonged passing reference. The Deputy should confine himself to the Estimate. He is going on to economic affairs and finance.

The whole emphasis of the debate must centre around employment-unemployment.

The statements I have extracted from the report indicate where we are going and what we are are talking about. Surely I can state that export growth provided the only real hope of increasing industrial output enough to reduce unemployment. If exports are dropping and there is a trade deficit we have to address ourselves to it if we are serious about tackling the problem of unemployment.

It would be unfair of me if I did not make some reference to matters dealt with by the Minister in his 37 page script. What I have found most extraordinary in the light of all that has been said here and outside is that the first paragraph of the Minister's speech refers to that infamous document, Building on Reality. The Minister said that in that document the Government identified action on the employment front as the central economic and social priority. I am glad they have identified it but having done so I do not think they did much about it. It is an insult to our intelligence for the Minister to state later that Building on Reality incorporated novel interventionist measures such as the social employment scheme which was launched on 22 February. I understood that that document was introduced in October last but, even allowing for the official launching in February, what has happened since? I am aware that a massive public relations exercise was embarked on in an effort to sell the scheme but I am patiently waiting to learn how many are employed under that scheme today.

When the scheme was announced we were told that there would be 10,000 jobs per year for three years created. However, today we were told that the Department have received in excess of 20,000 inquiries about the scheme, and that approximately 450 proposals for the schemes have been received with an employment potential — the word "potential" should be noted — of 3,000 persons. In October we were told that 10,000 jobs per year would be created but now we are told that the schemes have an employment potential of 3,000.

It was good of the Minister to restate that we have the highest percentage of young people in the labour force of any member state and that the level of our overall unemployment is among the highest in the Community. There is no follow-up solution. We were told that 69,000 young people will benefit from schemes funded by the youth employment levy but I should like to know if we are dealing with some of the schemes I described earlier as stop gap measures.

The Minister referred to a new type of scheme which he described as the alterance scheme. I wonder where the Government will get a word to describe the next scheme. We were told that the scheme was introduced as part of the Government's national plan, that it will provide a new impetus to increase the training opportunities for over 25's and will continue to be complemented by other efforts. I thought training was being catered for under a different name.

I must compliment the Minister on suggesting that in implementing economic policies the Government must seek to ensure that there is a proper balance between equity and efficiency. Is he suggesting that there is inefficiency in certain areas? The junior Minister should explain that later. The employment-unemployment position must be addressed in a way that supersedes all the platitudes we have heard.

There is a reference in the Minister's speech to the manpower document of 1965 being produced during a background economic expansion and growth in employment. Since then we have not had a manpower document. In view of the overall situation is it not time we produced at least a White Paper so that we will not be depending on a document suited to a time of expansion in 1965? I appeal to the Minister and to the Department to emphasise their authority and encourage the formulation of policies to address the unacceptable employment problems.

It is with a great sense of depression that I usually sit here on debates such as this and in the light of the remarks of the Minister for Labour in his introduction I was constantly reminded of King Canute sitting helplessly and hopelessly on the beach trying to turn back the waves already overwhelming him. That is exactly what I have heard in the debate on Labour so far. We are talking about employment and unemployment in the context of a situation which has changed worldwide. Not alone does it depress me but it alarms me that the Opposition do not seem to realise it. Alvin Toflen in a book some years ago anticipating the changes not just in the types of labour in industry, but the technological changes that would wipe out so many jobs referred to it as the third wave of a revolution that was comparable only with the agricultural revolution and the industrial revolution but with the incredible difference which all of us must find challenging and hopefully controllable, that whilst the other revolution took centuries to evolve and bring about changes in social and financial structures, this third wave now upon us that has altered our traditional work and our perceptions of work, is happening in decades. For us not to take that into consideration, for the Opposition not to realise and offer some kind of initiatives on this is alarming to say the least.

Deputy Lyons in his remarks pointed out that the Minister referred to the White Paper on manpower policy in 1965 which was drawn up against a different background. This bears out the logic of the argument about the speed at which world and national labour structures have changed. Deputy Lyons must have failed to read the bottom of page three of the Minister's speech where he said:

I already have had very constructive discussions with the representatives of the various manpower bodies and I intend to consult with representatives of both sides of industry .... with a view to publishing the White Paper on Manpower Policy this year.

The Minister has anticipated the changes to which I referred. It is useless and cynical and verging on the stupid, to talk about unemployment as if it was a small local aberration and that we would have full employment were it not for the lack of ability of the present Government. To put forward such a reason for our present difficulties is insulting and insensitive to the unemployed. We should expect more from our elected representatives with regard to constructive, positive attitudes on how we will provide employment.

I welcome the Minister's ideas and initiatives put forward today. One of the schemes on which Deputy Lyons poured cold water, if not vitriol, was the social employment scheme. From his remarks it appears that Deputy Lyons is not in the same century as the rest of us with regard to work. At the same time, the Deputy expects a scheme which has just been launched to produce a huge number of jobs at an incredible speed. Deputy Lyons described the scheme merely as bandaging a wound. Yet all those involved in work, including trade unions, readily accept that the concept removes the incredible frustrating and totally mind deadening effects of the dole on people who have been condemned to a dole system that requires them not to work. This is an initiative which gives people the incentive to work. Deputy Lyons is right when he says that one of the areas we must address is the incentive to work. This is what this scheme does, so the Deputy's negative approach is depressing.

The Minister is right in saying that transition from school to work is of tremendous importance. We are now endeavouring to change a school system that did not readily encourage the transition from school to work. The Minister is right to say that we must maximise the resources at institutional level between the educational and manpower agencies. Deputy Birmingham, the Minister of State, is involved in that area. The Minister for Education in some of the initiatives she has encouraged in her Department is going that way too. Since we realised the deficiencies in our education system a problem that came to light was that we were educating all our students at second level for university although we knew that only from 5 to 10 per cent of students would go to university. We did this at great cost. We are realising only now that we left a huge vaccum in not giving the proper status and resources to the areas of our educational systems that were encouraging people into and training them for the vocational and technical end. Therefore, the emphasis now being placed on a transition from school to work which does not present the academic scene as a completely different world which does not even help a great number of students into the area of work is welcome. I applaud all the initiatives that have been taken in education and labour on that level. This requires co-ordination of all our agencies, as the Minister said.

Further in-training for guidance counsellors would be helpful because it is difficult for them, if they do not get the chance to do refresher courses, to realise how important a task they have in changing trends in the vocational and technical training end now rather than over-emphasising the academic side. In regard to equal opportunity, our guidance counsellors should be very aware and highly encouraging of students young enough to choose the subjects they need to go to where employment will lie in the future. For many students part of the problem is that if guidance counselling comes only at fourth or fifth year level then their chance of going into many of those areas is already cut off because they have not got the subjects at the right level. I am sure that the Minister is aware that one of the strongest recommendations in the report on education from the Committee on Women's Rights was that guidance counselling in order to be really effective must start at first or second level before students have made choices that may be damaging to them in the long run.

I compliment the Minister and the agencies he is working with, particularly the National Manpower Service, on updating and centralising information most effectively. It is welcome news that computerisation will go a long way towards achieving that. We must remember not just the physical, financial and emotional effects on people seeking work. Tremendous psychological pressure is on them also. Above all else, the personal, human element must be remembered and every efficient, effective, centralised means must be used by the NMS to work effectively towards the areas of employment for the people attending their courses and they must have the time and the information to give those people, vulnerable as they are, a sense of confidence and effectiveness. The pressure of large numbers allied to insufficient numbers of staff without the help and back-up of computers led very often to a sense in the people attending NMS agencies of getting short shrift, of not having their situation, which is so important to them, seen as it should be seen. I hope when the Minister is reporting back here next year he will be able to give us a record of much improvement in this area.

The Minister referred to the work being done by AnCO, and we cannot overestimate its value. I must place on record my admiration for AnCO in their anticipation of the kind of training needed for the changing work structures and their projections and plans to cope with the change in technological and training skills that they would need to give to their trainees and apprentices. Every student and trainee going through their training centres has access to and training in computers. Tommorrow's technology lies in computers. To turn out trainees and students without at least the rudiments of knowledge of them would be remiss, and AnCO have not been remiss in that. They are also aware of the need for flexibility. They have entered into exciting programmes such as the LINC Programme, and they have joined with other organisations, the VECs and community organisations who know the local problems and also the local potential on the ground. This linking up, merging, all organisations joining together must be part of the solution.

The integrated, positive, hard working approach to the potential of all areas and the sharing of expertise and experience in them will help us to face the huge challenge ahead of us in the endemic unemployment in which emigration has been used to reduce the numbers until recently. At least now our population are educated and trained and we hope that they can be contained and employed in Ireland to a great extent. However, let me say that there is nothing wrong with and everything to be gained by students and young people who have finished their training looking at the EC as a step forward in work experience and expertise that they can bring back to Ireland. The perception of emigration must change from the cattle boat emigration of former years when thousands of our young people went out without much formal education because we had not the privilege of free education or the communications facilities that we have today. Those young people lacked a sense of other cultures and other traditions. That is not so today. Young people today share a world culture, a culture which young people in the US, Japan and Germany share. They have an extensive introduction to languages and skills. Everything is to be gained by a few years spent abroad in the hope of coming back and settling in Ireland. The same can be said of migrants of other states. We must not negative the positive elements of young, educated, trained people going out and contributing, particularly within the EC of which we are members. It is not a question of ships taking out poor emigrants who will never return.

The Minister referred to the emphasis that must be placed on coping with the fast changes that face us. He was quite right to point out that our comment and dialogue on the European Social Fund should be with regard to the most effective use of it and to eliminating the rigidity which would prevent all of us from using the ESF for the very reasons that it was set up. A certain rigidity within the ESF for years did not allow us to use it as fully and effectively as we might have done.

I have here a copy of CREW, which is a research magazine in Europe which provides a news bulletin on the various areas of discussion within the EC. In April 1985 they reported a European Parliament debate on the future of the use of the European Social Fund. A certain amount of anxiety was expressed by the Women's Rights Committee that only about 30 per cent to 39 per cent of the Fund's beneficiaries in 1984 were women. I should like the Minister and others involved in the European Social Fund to look at that. Again and again we have been made aware that there is a constant need for women to be able to avail of such funds because of their traditional lack of training, and even discrimination against training for women. We will have to concentrate on this and make sure that women get at least 50 per cent of the funds available.

During that debate Commissioner Peter Sutherland told Parliament that changes were to be proposed along guidelines which would take into consideration the pockets of high unemployment in Europe and the changing structures of training which we need for the kind of employment we hope to have here and in Europe in the future. I am glad to note how much of the Minister's speech was concerned with legislation. It would be wonderful to live in a world where we did not have to introduce legislation, where everybody was so aware of and supportive of people's rights that we did not need legislation to protect them. Being an imperfect world, legislation is essential. It is the necessary foundation stone. We all have to ensure that the legislation introduced is acknowledged not only in word but in spirit.

The Minister referred to a measure which was introduced and which I and, I am sure, everyone in the House welcomed, the Protection of Employees (Employer's Insolvency) Act, 1984. The Minister said:

This measure was introduced in response to a disturbing trend in employment reflected in the number of firms closing down without notice, leaving employees with arrears of wages, holiday pay and other entitlements. The new Act which came into operation last November, but with effect from 22 October 1983 is designed to protect the entitlements of employees in such situations.

We are all anxious and concerned about the high level of unemployment and the high level redundancies brought about by an incredible change within the traditional areas of work, as we knew them, and in the manufacturing industries. It is very difficult for people to realise that the traditional work they were involved in for many years may now be at an end. It is a double injury to employees to find that they were not protected either consciously or unconsciously by their employer. By that I mean the employer may have had so little respect for the rights of his employees that he may not have made the proper moves to protect those rights.

Employers may not have anticipated the ending of the company or firm, or financially they could not protect their employees' rights. That is why this Bill is so welcome. Employees must have security and entitlement to their rights when they are at work. Employees should be given information on how their companies or firms are operating. I hope the Bill will be introduced into the House quickly. I know the Minister will join with me in wishing to see that legislation introduced quickly so that employees will be in a more secure position within their places of work than the present company law allows them.

Much comment was made by speakers about work safety and health. As our industries change and as we move into new industries, particularly those involving chemicals and anything to do with radiation, dangers will emerge which we did not have to cope with before. It is very important that we make sure that hazards at work in traditional industries are protected against, and that we anticipate the type of dangers and risks that will arise at work in future.

Outdated laws which may have been introduced in the past to protect them are now an obstacle to women. This should be looked at with all speed. The Minister has indicated that he is dealing with it. It would be a fine irony if, in our endeavour to ensure health and safety at work, we did not make sure that women workers were not seen as being less in need of protection. I look forward to hearing the Minister's response.

The Unfair Dismissals Act has come under a tremendous amount of negative attack in recent years. It is put forward at times as one of the main reasons why we are not increasing employment and as a great disincentive to job creation. I read with pleasure what the Minister said:

Recent reserach on the Act has not identified a negative impact for employment creation, but has shown that in fact it has benefitted both sides of industry by raising the standards of personnel management and improving selection procedures.

There is a lesson to be learned from that and also from the research that has allowed the Minister to comment in this way, because where industrial relations are good one finds there is a skilled personnel management and that particularly there is a value placed on the work of employees. In these circumstances there is very little conflict and few instances of the Unfair Dismissals Act having to be invoked. What has been done has gone some way towards improving personnel management and in bringing about a greater awareness of the value of the work of employees.

I turn now to those other pieces of legislation that are of tremendous importance to women especially. There was a great need for these pieces of legislation; but, while there was a good deal of it on the Statue Book, it was invoked more in the word than in the spirit. The Minister recognises, as I recognise, that at a time of high unemployment and general economic difficulty there is always the backlash effect of a grave setback in the area of legislation designed to give encouragement to women and to improve their lot in the work place.

Therefore, I applaud the Minister for insisting that employment equality legislation remains one of his priorities. It is in times of negative reaction that we must be at our most vigilant because those are the times during which there can be the greatest denial of rights.

I appreciate that the Minister's time for replying will be limited but perhaps he may be able to indicate some positive reaction to some of the matters I am raising and which are highlighted in the findings of the "Agenda for Practical Action for Irish Women" which was produced by the Working Party on Women's Affairs and Family Law Reform. Already I have supported positively the social employment scheme, which I regard as having all the right elements of those two concepts. However, I wonder if women might find themselves discriminated against in so far as very many of them are not regarded as being in the long term unemployed category and because of the differences with regard to women being eligible for unemployment assistance which was one of the criterion for being part of the scheme.

Very many women who are long term unemployed have long since failed to be included on the live register. How are we to cope with that problem? It is one of the most aggravating issues for women because in that way they are denied the opportunity not only for jobs generally but for advancement from temporary to permanent jobs. The marriage bar resulted in a series of instances in which women were kept constantly at a temporary level of employment.

There is no marriage bar now but there remains a serious by-product of it. I refer to the application of age limits for jobs. There may be discrimination in this regard on two levels. First, there is the question of married women who had been allowed remain on at work but only on a temporary basis thereby being denied holiday, sickness and pension rights, while on the other hand they may find themselves in the incredible and ironic position of being disqualified for applying for the job they have been doing for some time when that job is advertised on the basis of permanency. This is because an age limit usually applies then and that age limit might be as low as 27. Therefore, not only are they disqualified from applying for the job, but effectively they are removed from it in the event of someone else being appointed to the job on a permanent basis.

I realise that the Minister is very much aware of this and that the Employment Equality Agency have made strong recommendations on it, but it is a great disincentive not only for the category of women I have outlined — and there are many women in that category — but for other women also because, taking into consideration the work pattern of women whereby in their earlier years of marriage they are likely to give a good deal of their time to child rearing and household tasks, they are barred effectively from returning to the workforce at a time when the wisdom and skills they acquire in running their homes would be of tremendous value in their places of employment. In the areas of equality of opportunity and so on this is one of the most urgent matters that should be considered.

It is incredible that in 1985 women are not allowed compete for entry either to the Army or to the Air Corps and that the Employment Equality Act is not applied in the area of recruitment or promotion or training within the Garda Síochána. However, that is a matter that should be addressed to another Minister. Suffice it to say that at this time in our development it is still necessary for us to lobby on that problem.

The Minister hopes to be able to ensure that in the area of the Employment Equality Act particularly there will be positive action. Perhaps he will find time when replying to give some indication of his proposals in this regard.

During our Presidency of the EC, the Minister, as President of the Social Affairs Council, put forward and had adopted as a priority a recommendation of the motion for positive action for women at Council level. He is to be complimented on that. This morning he told us that the statement exhorts all organisations to issue statements of commitment embodying the principles of employment equality and providing the necessary encouragement and guidance to staff to implement that policy. I wonder how strong the word "exhorts" is in this context. Perhaps it is stronger than I understand it to be; but it may be that the Minister, backed we would hope by legislation from this House, would have to do something more than exhort in this context. He tells us also that all State and semi-State sponsored bodies have been requested to adopt a policy statement in this regard and to institute appropriate arrangements to ensure its implementation. If we leave the matter to the goodwill of those concerned in State and semi-State bodies, we may well ask if that will be sufficient, having regard to the progress made to date and the climate in which the recommendation is being made. Perhaps within the ambit of his responsibility the Minister will ensure that this concept is put in a much more positive way.

The Minister comments also on industrial relations, and rightly so, because in the absence of industrial relations we would not be in a position to talk about either a worthwhile or a healthy labour situation. The Minister said that there must be mutual trust between management and unions and that there is a need for the introduction of more developed and widespread procedures for information disclosure and consultation. That is the nub of the whole problem, because the lack of information disclosure and consultation is what leads to the breakdown of trust between management and unions. It is tragic to see people caught up in a situation where there is much that is justifiable on both sides but because of the distrust and lack of confidence there is a complete breakdown. This is always to the detriment of the firm and fundamentally to the workers because, no matter what the outcome, in the event of a closure the chances are that the employees will come out the worst.

It is remarkable how information disclosure, consultation and trust by management, not only in the value of the work of employees but in the intelligence of employees to understand decisions and accept them, has been overlooked to a great degree. Anything that can be done in this area will bring about a dramatic change. Very often it is not just a matter of money, although the headlines in relation to conflict between union and employers can be summed up usually by "pay negotiations", but the underlying disquiet very often is due to a failure to recognise the value of workers' contributions to the productivity of a firm. They feel that the only way they can have their value recognised is by asking for more money. They feel this is the only value put on their contribution anyway. In the consultations between workers and management there are many ways in which the status, comfort and needs of workers could be answered so that pay would not be an area of conflict.

Basically what everyone wants within their area of work is to have their work acknowledged and to have the status and integrity of their personal contribution acknowledged. If in our industrial relations policy something along those lines was laid down, our industrial relations would improve.

We now have new work structures. The concept of a five day 50 hour week has gone. If we can make work work for us instead of us working for work, then that concept has gone for good and for all the right reasons. We must see the challenge as controllable and welcome it as positive rather than lamenting the outmoded and traditional work that made slaves of people. From 20 years of age to 65 years of age people's lives passed without them having any great leisure other than what work gave to them. The new concepts, such as flexitime and work sharing, are very good, humanising and necessary.

While I welcome these changing concepts, such as work sharing and flexitime, particularly their introduction into the public service, I am told that it is almost exclusively women who take up the work sharing concept and career breaks. The concept of work-sharing was introduced for men as well as women, but there is no way it will work as a civilised concept with regard to work and living or as an area of equal opportunity unless men share in it as well. Up to now there has been little awareness in this country of that by men, employers or administrators. This worries me because all the work that we have done in trying to create equal opportunity for women and giving them the right to work outside the home, as men do, will be totally eroded if we create a work-sharing concept that deals only with women. It will do two things. It will mean women will constantly be caught in a part time situation while their male colleagues continue in full time employment with full pension rights, full training and promotion. That is not what the work sharing concept is meant to be. Secondly, it will be seen as an easy way of creating work for women by asking two or three women to take on one job while their male colleagues will hold on to one job per person. That will leave women, as ever, with all the domestic responsibilities of child rearing and house minding.

I appeal to the Minister before it is too late to try to have the concept seen as it should be, favourable to men and as a choice which would help them to have a more enjoyable and fulfilled life. We know that technology has taken over much of the work which was done in the past and we know that less energy is expended. In the light of that, if we are serious about full employment, the only fair, equitable, future way we can achieve it is by a fair sharing out of work. There is no point in talking about equal opportunity or having an end to unemployment if we continue the outdated structures we have now where a certain number of people are allowed to work and are seen as elite while the rest of the people are unemployed and are seen as unemployable for the rest of their lives.

That is the challenge we face. Concepts should be introduced to cope with that, which would make the world of work a fulfilling and satisfying area. The Minister needs the support of the Members on all sides of the House and, in welcoming his remarks, I look forward to his response in the short term and I hope when we are discussing the same Vote next year that the solutions to many of our problems will have been found.

I thank the Members for the way they received the Estimate and extend my appreciation to Deputy Ahern for his constructive remarks. In fairness, I should say that the compliments which he paid me for publishing the first annual report of the Department of Labour, while gratefully received, should publicly be transferred to the people responsible for doing the work, the officials in my Department. Other than asking for a report to be prepared and signing a preface prepared for me, all the work was done by my officials. We rarely get the chance in political life to pay tribute to the work of civil servants and it is quite clear from the Estimate before the House and from the volume of work done in the Department of Labour, that, despite the embargo — or perhaps because of it — productivity overall in the Department of Labour has improved relative to the amount of people working there and the amount of work that has to be done. I should like to pay tribute to the people responsible for it. We need to advance this year and to improve on the performances we have already achieved.

A large number of points were raised and I have covered most of them in my opening speech. We will certainly be taking a clear and sharp account of all the points individually raised by Deputy Ahern, Deputy Durkan, Deputy Lyons and Deputy Barnes. The White Paper on Manpower Policy will address itself to many of the problems raised by Deputies. The legislative programme which we have outlined will strengthen existing legislation and provide necessary new protection in the area of off shore installations. The review and the operation of all legislation is something we must constantly try to monitor but I would welcome the experience which other Members have, from representations which they get through their clinics or organisations, as to how they see legislation working. In that respect, I should address myself to one comment made by Deputy Barnes regarding out of date and old fashioned restrictions on women workers, particularly night time work. My predecessor, Deputy Kavanagh, asked the Employment Equality Agency to undertake such a review. An interim report has been received and the final report is now being worked on. Some of the young women in the gallery today will be working until the year 2000 and beyond and will not be hidebound by out-of-date, Victorian concepts of women in the work place which would prevent them from doing the same kind of work as their brothers or earning the same kind of money.

About 400 school children passed through the gallery today and the important thing for them to recognise is that all the evidence we have clearly indicates that the better the education and training, the better prospects there are of getting a job, not just a job that pays money but one which develops you as a person. The day of Ireland being a place for cheap-labour assembly work is over and we will have to adapt to jobs which require the manipulation of the mind rather than that of the fingers, jobs which require mental agility rather than physical strength. The labouring Paddy, synonymous with so much of the work which our forbears had to do, has been replaced by machines. Therefore, training and education — and repeated training and education right through one's working life — is clearly related to the possibility of getting a job.

It is probably unknown that 79 per cent of young people who left school in 1983 with their leaving certificate got a job within 12 months, which gives the lie to people who say that there is no point in studying because there are no jobs available. They may not have got the job they wanted, or the job their mothers wanted for them, but they got a job and, on a moving train, you can adjust your seat. We must take confidence and hope from what this country has already achieved. We have the highest percentage of young people in the labour force of all the EC countries and we have the lowest level of youth unemployment. That has not come about by accident but by the direct intervention of a number of administrations. However, we can do it better and more efficiently and I welcome the constructive comments made by Members in relation to that.

I shall now turn to the question of industrial relations. A White Paper, which I hope will be published next autumn, will make a series of specific recommendations and announce a series of precise decisions which we will have arrived at in Government. We are on target to meet that deadline. The White Paper will also address itself to rationalising and improving the institutional arrangements which provide for training and placement in the labour force. I accept what was said by Deputy Ahern and others, that it is not the role of AnCO to provide direct jobs for people but it is clearly the role of the training agencies to help people to acquire skills which will enable them to get jobs. AnCO and the other agencies have been successful in this regard over a number of years and I wish to put on record my recognition and appreciation of that success. However, like every organisation, they could improve and do better. I know that is clearly the motivation of the council of AnCO, which represents the social partners, the chief executive and the chairman.

In regard to industrial relations, the discussion document published in March to which the social partners have responded, has started to make progress. The four areas which I outlined in my speech are being looked at by both sides of industry. I am hopeful that we can arrive at an agreement regarding broad areas of improvement in the industrial relations framework. I stress to the social partners that it is this House which enacts legislation for industrial relations. We do so with a democratic mandate from the public which gives us the sovereign right to make the laws. However, we must and will have regard to the ability of the participants to make that legislative framework operate and function in an ever-changing world. The consultative process upon which we have embarked with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the Federated Union of Employers will continue. We will strive, in so far as we can, to reconcile differences and to bring both sides together by way of agreement within a legal framework in which industrial relations can take place.

If ever there was a need to improve our industrial relations system, that need is reinforced and graphically underlined by the statistics on strikes referred to by Deputy Ahern which are contained in the annual report from the Department of Labour. The man-days lost represent jobs and revenue lost to the economy in overall terms. They also represent considerable personal hardship for the individuals who go on strike — nobody makes money when on strike — and substantial, if not irreparable damage done to the companies concerned.

We owe it to ourselves to improve the framework within which the legitimate process of collective bargaining can operate and to minimise the resource to strike to the extent that it becomes a last resort rather than, as Deputy Ahern described it, the frustrated option because of a lack of information or a lack of response from either management or, as in his instance, the union of which he was a member.

A key element in the area of industrial relations is the disclosure of information. I thank Deputy Ahern for his comments on the co-operation he got from the Department of Labour, the Minister of State, myself and my officials. What we wanted to illustrate was that we believe in the principle of disclosure of information and we try to practise it as best we can. It is clear that the industries which operate a voluntary system of maximum disclosure of information reap the benefits because it removes fear and distrust and builds a certain degree of solidarity between management and the workforce since both are interested in ensuring a viable and healthy enterprise. I hope the discussions which are taking place will proceed satisfactorily and constructively and in the spirit which I believe is shared on both sides of this House so that at the end of the day the position of the working people in our society will be enhanced and improved rather than diminished and weakened. A modernisation of our industrial relations framework can only be in the interests of the working people and their children.

For anyone to suggest in 1985 that we could enter the last 14 years of this century with Acts taken from another Parliament, which responded to political pressure emanting since 1871 and culminating with a House of Commons Act, 1906, is patent nonsense. Nobody would suggest that we should proceed with an industrial policy into the next century using a 1906 industrial development Act. Since industrial relations are the product of economic forces in the market place and in industry, it is clear that just as we need to modernise our approach to industry we need also to modernise our approach to industrial relations. To those people who may feel a little apprehensive or worried by the unknown, they should be reassured that so far as this House and this Government are concerned the object of the exercise is to improve the existing framework so that the position of working people will be enhanced rather than diminished.

In that context we still have a long way to go in the area of equality and equality for women in the work place. We have the lowest level in the EC of women participating in the work force. It is estimated that between now and the end of this century the participation rate of women in the work force will double. If that has not already begun to challenge traditional male attitudes in all areas, even extending to the armed forces, it will as time goes on. We need to change attitudes and to change laws in tandem. A change in law will provoke a change in attitude and an attitudinal change will demand a change in the law. A review of the equality legislation is necessary and its advancement is also necessary. We exhorted semi-State bodies to respond to a programme we prepared and I would like to see more done in this area. For the time being we have put enough legislation on the Statute Book to demand that attitudes change so that we can improve the legislation. When I say "enough" I do not mean that we do not intend to go any further but that we have an obligation to ensure that the existing equality legislation works effectively. We must improve its operation and, where necessary, reform it. The action programme for women which was recently agreed by Government will be kept constantly under review.

It is the intention of my Department to analyse the other points raised in this debate and to take action where necessary. This is my Estimate speech and I have come here to justify it and to seek approval for a sum of approximately £160 million. Deputy Ahern asked a legitimate question having regard to the slow take-up of the SES to date. He said it looked as if we would have a surplus with regard to expenditure under some subheads. It is my intention that this money will be spent by the Department in the general pursuit of the objectives set out in my speech. It is my intention to ensure that the money I am seeking will be productively and efficiently spent by all the agencies under the aegis of the Department of Labour and by the Department itself.

Reference was made to the European Social Fund. Concern was expressed by Deputy Lyons, Deputy Durkan and others about the implications for the European Social Fund. I want the House to be aware of the implications for Ireland of what the enlargement of the Community might mean and what the possible change in the European Social Fund might actually represent to us in sufficient time to enable us to take whatever corrective action is needed. It is not usual for a Minister to indicate to the House difficulties that are foreseen, but I think it is the responsible thing to do in this instance because it is in the national interest to recognise the problem and then to see what steps would be taken to minimise its impact.

I am quite confident that we can take those steps. It is appropriate that Members of the House and, indeed, the organisations and bodies who read these debates be put on notice that to presume that the ESF will continue to generate the level of funding that it has in the past would be unwise. We must have regard for what is happening within the EC.

I think that I have covered in general most of the points to which I want to address myself. I should like to thank the House for its co-operation and for the constructive debate which we have had, yet again, on this topic. I assure the Members that the moneys which they are voting upon and debating today will be efficiently used. I look forward to coming back into the House next year to give an account of what we have done with the moneys we are raising and to listen to the comments and the suggestions for improvements that will come from the Deputies on all sides of the House. I thank them for their co-operation.

Vote put and agreed to.
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