asked the Taoiseach if he had any discussions with politicians or emigration authorities in the United States in an effort to ease restrictions on the number of illegal emigrants at present in the United States; and the numbers now emigrating on a daily basis.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - US Illegal Emigrants.
1.
I did not raise the question of illegal emigrants in the United States. I was concerned to get an enlargement of the legal quota of summer work visas for Irish students. As the Deputy will recall, I announced during my visit there a decision by the American administration to increase this quota to the extent that Ireland now has the benefit of one half of all summer student visas allocated to European countries this year — an increase of 70 per cent over last year's Irish figure.
As to the second part of the Deputy's question, I understand that 555 immigrant visas were issued last year.
Does the Taoiseach acknowledge that a very large number of young Irish people who are at present in the United States are in difficult circumstances? Can he tell the House of any efforts which he or his Government might make to alleviate or improve their position? I want to make it clear to the Taoiseach that I am talking of young people who are already in the United States as distinct from any young people who may yet go there. I am talking about a number of people who are there, some of them perhaps illegally, and who are in a very unhappy and difficult position. I should like the Taoiseach to tell us if anything can be done to improve their situation.
The Deputy will appreciate that if he is talking about people who are in the United States illegally obviously there are severe limits on the action our Government can take in relation to people in that position. The only thing that might be helpful in that regard would be if the United States Government were to decide to introduce an amnesty for those who are there, as distinct from those who might go there in the future. However, I have no reason to believe that is probable. Otherwise, we are limited in what action we can take if people are in the United States illegally.
The Taoiseach will recall that legislation was brought forward on one occasion to grant an amnesty but unfortunately it fell because of developments in regard to the presidential election. Would the Taoiseach not agree it would be desirable that the Irish Government should make every effort to have some such legislation reactivated so that the position of these young people might be put on a proper basis? The Taoiseach is probably aware that many of them cannot return home, even in the most distressing and humanitarian situation, in case they will not be allowed to return. Further, will the Taoiseach agree that, of course, the right solution to this whole problem would be for him and for his Government to change their policies completely and pursue rational, economic policies that would provide employment for these young people, rather than forcing them to emigrate?
That is a separate question. It does not arise on Question No. 1.
With regard to the last part of the Deputy's question, I am aware of his view that simultaneously we should reduce borrowing, increase expenditure and reduce taxation but he has not yet enlightened me on the arithmetic behind that calculation or how he can do anything about it.
The Taoiseach should not be smart. He should just answer the question.
"Smartness" was introduced by the Deputy, not by me.
It would be nice if the Taoiseach did something useful in America.
The question raised by the Deputy with what would appear from his last remark to be a certain lack of sincerity is a serious matter which should not be treated in the way the Deputy is now treating it. Obviously there is a problem in respect of young Irish people who may be in the United States illegally and who may hold employment there. We must have regard to what action on our part, if any, might be helpful and what action on our part might be unhelpful in respect of raising the profile of the problem. That is why I hesitated in developing the issue. With regard to an amnesty, obviously it would be very helpful if that came about. It is a matter that came up for discussion in the United States with members of Irish-American organisations there who are particularly concerned with the problem. The Government would have to consider carefully whether it would be opportune to raise that matter with the United States Government or if it did not succeed whether it might make more problems for the people concerned than those existing already.
Does the Taoiseach intend to take any action to establish solid statistical data so that we can have true figures of the extent of the mass exodus from rural Ireland ——
That is a separate question.
We are talking of numbers in the question. I am asking the Taoiseach what action he proposes to take to establish the true extent of emigration so that we can have some idea of what we have to cope with if we take up the matter with the American Government.
The Deputy will be aware of the obvious difficulties in producing statistics of illegal emigrants.
The emigration figures are running in thousands and thousands.
That is a separate question.
It is part of the question which refers to numbers emigrating.
The Chair is ruling that the question deals with the number of immigrants that are there at present ——
—— and my question to the Taoiseach ——
It deals with all immigrants there at present.
I am asking what action he proposes to take ——
I am ruling that is another question.
—— to establish the true extent of the numbers that are there and if the Taoiseach will accept from me that the numbers run into thousands and thousands, that there has been a mass exodus from this country to the United States? I know he prefers not to know about it. It is easier to bring down the unemployment figures ——
I am calling Deputy Glenn.
I am aware, as are most of my colleagues, of the Taoiseach's genuine concern for the thousands of young Irish people in the United States at present who are regarded as illegal immigrants and are, if you like, only one step ahead of the posse in order to remain. Would the Taoiseach reinforce his efforts to get an amnesty for these young people, many of whom — through taxpayers' efforts here — have professions which would be very valuable in the States, have employers prepared to employ them but, because they cannot get work permits, are working in bars and other places not suited to their qualifications? As the Taoiseach well knows the United States ——
I cannot allow Deputy Glenn to make a speech; I am sorry.
Would the Taoiseach reinforce his efforts on behalf of so many of these young Irish people who are at present living in great distress?
Would the Taoiseach care to reply to his Deputy before ——
In reply to the substance of Deputy Glenn's question, I accept the genuineness of her concern about the problem, and we are concerned about it, but what we have to consider is the extent to which raising a question about amnesty with the United States authorities would be likely to be helpful in the circumstances. I certainly am giving consideration to that. As I said, it is a matter that came up in my discussions with Irish-American organisations there. We have to make a judgment on what might be the best way to proceed in that matter in the interests of the people we are talking about here.
What is wrong about raising an amnesty? It was raised before by the Americans themselves.
It is one thing for the Americans to raise a question about amnesty for illegal immigrants generally but it is another thing for the Irish Government to draw particular attention to young people there in a manner that might be inimical to their interests, as they perceive them, which the Deputy does not seem to be very concerned about——
Everybody knows the situation. The Government prefer to do nothing about it, as usual.
Would the Taoiseach say what is his Government's estimate of the number of such young people now residing in the United States?
I have already answered that. In the nature of things, there are no figures——
I asked for an estimate.
There are no statistics of people who are illegal immigrants in any country——
I asked for an estimate.
I am not aware of any estimate of the number. I have never heard of one, nor am I aware of any source of one, so I cannot help the Deputy on that.
Would the Taoiseach agree that there are now 40,000 young people——
(Interruptions.)
That figure would be very improbable because there is no way in which the number could be of that order of magnitude given the fact that the total flow of people emigrating from the country that we know about is so much smaller than that. For example, the labour survey of 1983 showed the total number of school leavers emigrating at 1,500. Therefore the Deputy's figures are completely——
(Interruptions.)
A Cheann Comhairle——
I allowed the Deputy two questions. I am calling on Deputy Manning.
Would the Taoiseach accept that it was his sole intervention which persuaded the Americans to grant the extra 700 work permits this summer, which is much appreciated? But, in view of the fact that there are over 1,000 people who still have applied for such permits, would the Taoiseach be prepared to explore other possibilities to increase the Irish quota?
(Interruptions.)
We have increased the figure by 70 per cent by comparison with those for last year and with the figure initially proposed for this year. We now have half the European total, which is a remarkable achievement, as I think Deputy Manning was indicating. The question of whether there is any possibility of improving on that is a moot point. I certainly would like to do so if I could and I am looking at the position at present but I am not certain that we will be able to do much more than we have done already.
Is the Taoiseach aware of the serious situation in which heads of households — the main breadwinner in several families — has had to emigrate in order to provide some kind of sustenance for their families——
This is not the first time——
Fine Gael have done it before.
It is certainly not the first time it has happened under a Coalition Government. Furthermore, is the Taoiseach aware that most of these people, heads of households, who have to emigrate are either redundant construction workers or small farmers? Can he give us any indication now of any plans he has to remedy this serious inhuman plight?
The Deputy should stop smiling when he says it.
Has the Taoiseach no answer to my question?
We have figures for earlier years. The average figures for the years 1967 to 1971 under Fianna Fáil, I think, were just over 45,000 per annum, net emigration, as against a birth rate of 60,000.
(Interruptions.)
I am calling Question No. 2.
Could I ask the Taoiseach——
Deputy, I am sorry.
Did the Taoiseach say that the numbers of students who could visit the United States had been increased. Did he say that?
Yes.
Well, would that not be encouraging more illegal immigrants into the United States? Would it not be more pertinent to seek that the quota be increased?
It is not encouraging illegal immigration. The student work visa arrangements are operated in conjunction with the organisations here and in the United States and do provide an opportunity for Irish students to work remuneratively in America, to assist them with their studies and indeed in some cases to help them accumulate savings. They are extremely useful and, in these cases, the evidence is that these students — under these very carefully worked out schemes — do return here.
Is the Taoiseach not aware——
Dr. O'Connell, I am calling the next question.
I am just asking——
Deputy O'Connell——
I do not often ask a supplementary and I am asking you now.
The Deputy has not been here for two years, so how could he ask?
Deputy O'Connell, please.
I am just asking——
I am asking the Deputy to listen to the Chair. I am explaining the position. I had moved from this question and, out of deference to you, as a past holder of this office, I allowed you one supplementary, then I allowed you another and that is it.
In view of what the Taoiseach said, I asked for another supplementary.
I am calling Question No. 2.