asked the Minister for Justice if he will detail the security arrangements which will be undertaken by the Garda in Phibsboro and Glasnevin to ensure that there will be no repetition of the recent violence following the Glasgow Rangers football match at Dalymount Park, Dublin 7.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Football Match Violence.
9.
(Limerick East): It is a coincidence that we have such a question down today, after the events in Brussels last night. It is appropriate that I should sympathise with the relatives and friends of the victims before I answer this question.
The making of security arrangements to meet the needs of events of the kind referred to in the question is an operational Garda matter and one on which, moreover, the Garda obviously have to adopt a flexible approach involving a willingness to change plans or tactics at any time to suit developments. Accordingly all I can appropriately say is that, whenever incidents occur such as occurred at Dalymount Park and adjoining areas on 18 September 1984, the Garda take full account of them with a view to preventing, as far as possible, a recurrence.
From our own experience with Glasgow Rangers supporters at the match in question and, as the Minister himself referred to, the events last night, with the savagery of some of the Liverpool followers in Brussels, does the Minister now believe it to be appropriate that he consider the possibility of a ban on the entry of British supporters of soccer clubs into this country?
That seems to be a separate question.
It arises directly out of the question. There were British supporters at the Glasgow Rangers match. They caused mayhem in Phibsboro in Dublin. Last night a similar but much more tragic occurrence took place. These are both directly related. They happen to have been a direct result of uncontrollable savagery at football matches.
I have allowed a question rather than given a licence for a speech.
(Limerick East): The Minister of State at the Department of Education is primarily responsible, in association with the relevant sporting bodies, for safety and crowd control measures at sporting fixtures. Obviously, as a result of the events of last night and other events, any police force anywhere in Europe which would have had experience of large sporting situations, especially involving soccer matches, would be reviewing the position today. For the benefit of the House, the House may not be aware that Recommendation No. R85.8 of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe member states on the reduction of spectator violence at sporting events and, in particular, at football matches was adopted by the Foreign Ministers of 21 member states in the form of a recommendation to Governments on 19 March 1984. The recommendation was fully supported by the Irish delegation, even though they were not on the working party. The recommendation as adopted by the Committee of Ministers was circulated by the Council of Europe in July 1984 to the Department of Foreign Affairs.
I have seen a copy of that report. Certainly, it contains a number of recommendations which are well worth implementing. It might be helpful if I provided it in the Library or in whatever appropriate way to interested Members. It deals with exactly the problem which occurred last night and makes a whole series of recommendations dealing with the sale of tickets, separation of supporters, crowd control, control on the way to matches, at matches and so on. Those recommendations we could certainly subscribe to.
On the question of banning any particular group of supporters, that raises very wide issues on the common travel arrangements we have with Great Britain and also raises constitutional issues. Our Constitution protects non-nationals as well as citizens.
We all extend our sympathy with regard to the events of last night. Whatever the legal powers for the banning that Deputy Gregory quite rightly seeks, will the Minister, as Minister for Justice, now make it clear to the British soccer authorities that their supporters are not welcome to participate in events in this country until he, as Minister for Justice, is satisfied in regard to the assurances that he would seek from those authorities? Will he, tomorrow morning, arising out of these horrific events of last night, which shocked this and many other countries, make it quite clear that these supporters are not welcome here? Let him show that this country is taking a lead with regard to this horrific occurrence.
(Limerick East): The day immediately following on a catastrophic tragedy is not the best day for enunciating policy.
Hear, hear.
(Limerick East): Certainly, I shall take the Deputy's recommendations into account.
It is the day people want action.
Not overreaction.
(Limerick East): It is always easy to act in that context.
I did not ask for overreaction.
(Limerick East): There is always support for almost any kind of action in the aftermath of a tragedy, if that action seems to be related to the possibility of avoiding a recurrence. All I am saying is that I am not going to enunciate policies on the day after a tragedy during Question Time in this House. I shall bear in mind the points raised by the Deputies.
Question Time in this House is important.
(Limerick East): Very important.
Is the Minister aware that in October 1982 I raised the question with the Minister for the Environment of standards at sports grounds? This was as a result of a dangerous situation which arose at the All-Ireland Final of 1983, and also in Dalymount Park in the autumn of 1983 when people got onto the roof of the stand. I was informed at that time by the Minister for the Environment that the need for specific legislative control in this area was being examined. That was in 1983. I understood at that time that this would entail requirements in regard to crash barriers, passageways, emergency exists, maximum crowd numbers.
This does not sound like a question, Deputy.
Is the Minister aware that in 1983 the Minister for the Environment was examining this question? Has he any information with regard to whether any progress has been made?
The Deputy should put down a question to the Minister for the Environment.
(Limerick East): I am not so aware. But, if the Deputy assures me that the situation is such, I accept what the Deputy says. The Committee of the Council of Europe have made recommendations, first, that we should acknowledge as member countries our responsibility, complementing that of regional and local government and other public agencies, that the football authorities curb violence among spectators, coordinate at national level the policies and actions of Government Departments and other public agencies against spectator violence and foster similar co-operation to this end at other levels. There was a whole series of recommendations, for example, to segregate rival supporters, with one or more terraces reserved for visiting supporters only; to ensure the segregation by controlling the sale of tickets for matches and to avoid the casual sale of tickets which might undermine such segregation; to ensure, in so far as is legally possible, the exclusion of known trouble makers. I do not intend reading them all out. They mention considering the appointment of liaison officers to discuss before matches arrangements for crowd control with all appropriate public authorities so as to ensure that any relevant rule is enforced with concerted action, the encouraging of the establishment of official supporters' clubs, the appointment of stewards from within their membership to help manage and inform spectators at matches and to accompany parties of supporters travelling to away fixtures, the ensuring that the design and the physical fabric of football stadiums provide for the safety of spectators.
I must remind the Minister that long quotations are not in order at Question Time. I call Deputy Hyland.
Would the Minister not consult with the Minister for the Environment about this?
Is there any chance that Deputies at this side of the House could ask a question? I have sat here patiently and you have called Deputies who did not even offer.
I am sorry if I have trespassed on the Deputy's patience, but the Chair has to bear in mind a number of things at Question Time and one is to ensure fair play.
I am glad to hear that, because you have called Deputies who did not offer.
I will have no impertinence from Deputy Mitchell.
But Deputy Mitchell is as entitled as the other Deputies to ask a question,
Question Time is the only opportunity for some Members, while other Deputies have other opportunities. I call Deputy Hyland.
Could you take some Deputy on this side of the House, a Cheann Comhairle.
In a way the Minister has answered my question. I just want confirmation from him that consultation and liaison occur on a regular basis between the Garda and the organising committees of the various functions here which attract large gatherings of people. Would the Minister confirm that that liaison exists and are there contingency plans in relation to the more obvious areas like large GAA gatherings and race meetings, with regard to action which could be taken within a short period of time to deal with the kind of problems which are likely to arise at such events?
(Limerick East): I am putting it in the context of international agreement and international recommendations. Ireland has now been co-opted to the expert group who are dealing with spectator violence. The next meeting is in Strasbourg on 25 and 26 June. The fifth conference of the meeting of European Sports Ministers will be held in Dublin in the autumn of 1986. It is fairly clear already that spectator violence at matches will be on the agenda and will play a prominent part at the meeting. Copy of the resolutions to which I referred were sent to the sports section of the FAI, to the Irish Hockey Union, the IRFU, the Irish Basketball Association, to Bord Lúthchleas na hÉireann, Comhairle Liathróid Láimhe na hÉireann and to the GAA on 27 May 1985. As recently as last week those resolutions were sent to the sporting bodies to make them aware of them. We accept the recommendations. We are party to the agreement. Obviously the Garda have a major part to play in crowd control but they do it in consultation with the sporting organisations. This is not something that is being neglected. It is not something I am talking about now as a result of last night's tragedy. The matter was already in hand.
Will the Minister agree with me that visiting teams are welcome in this country——
Not that particular one.
——and that what happened last night in Brussels is as likely to happen at an all-Ireland final between Dublin and Kerry.
GAA supporters are not like that. What the Deputy said is ridiculous.
Will the Minister assure the House that as a result of what happened last night the Garda Commissioner will review the security situation surrounding games, not just relating to visiting teams but in relation to large attendances at football matches between teams in the country?
(Limerick East): First, I do not think it is as likely to happen at an all-Ireland final. The record of the GAA has been very good in this respect.
It is as likely to happen there.
(Limerick East): No, the GAA supporters are very well behaved. There is a particular problem with soccer, especially when British teams are involved. That is generally accepted. It is not as likely to happen at an all-Ireland final.
Obviously the Minister was never on Hill 16.
(Limerick East): Secondly, the vast majority of our young people are very well behaved, either when participating in sport or as spectators. We have had problems with visitors, but our young people have been very well behaved.
With reference to the awareness of the Garda Síochána in this connection, I have referred to the recommendations of the Council of Europe. The Government were represented on the Committee for the Development of Sport, known as the CDDS, to which the expert group reported, by a senior official from the sports section of the Department of Education. We were also represented by Deputy Commissioner O'Doherty, acting in his capacity as Chairman of Cospóir. The group to which the expert group reported has got on it one of the most senior gardaí in the country. They are well aware of the recommendations and would be instrumental in sending them out to the sporting organisations last week.
Will the Minister say——
This question could take up the rest of Question Time. I can understand the anxiety of people to deal with it.
This has nothing to do with what happened last night but is simply a question about the Garda and security.
I will allow Deputy De Rossa and Deputy Hyland to ask a question and I will call on Deputy Gregory for the last question on this matter.
My question relates directly to Deputy Gregory's query. In what way do the Garda decide the degree of security required at an event, whether it be a football match, a concert or any event that will attract a large number? Does it depend on the amount of money a club, an organiser or a promoter is prepared to pay for security? What rights do the Garda Síochána have inside a stadium or a hall where an event is taking place? Do the organisers decide how many gardaí are needed and the extent of security inside a stadium?
(Limerick East): The decision is normally made on local knowledge and information as to what is likely to happen. One can predict if there might be aggression between supporters in certain matches, but in other matches one can say quite categorically there will not be any trouble. I am sure when Limerick play Cork in a fortnight's time in Pairc Uí Caoimh there will not be much trouble down there. Normally they consult with the organisers and they come up with a level of security that is appropriate. It does not depend on the availability of money. A garda is a garda whether he is on or off duty. He has the same powers inside a football stadium as he has on the street and he will have the same powers off-duty.
Does the Minister consider it desirable that there should be a training programme or a training course of the voluntary stewards provided by the various organisations? Perhaps these lectures could be given by senior representatives of the Garda Síochána so that there is unity of purpose in relation to crowd control. I am sure the Minister will agree that the voluntary stewards play a major role in stewarding the large gatherings at various functions. Sometimes I think they have not the kind of guidance and training that would help them to perform their duties in the best way.
That seems to be introducing a new element into the question.
I am asking the Minister if he thinks it would be useful to have some form of training or guidance for the voluntary stewards who work in co-operation with the Garda Síochána?
(Limerick East): Probably there is some merit in that but by and large we have not had a history of crowd violence at matches——
Not yet.
(Limerick East): The situation is in hand. The replies I have given today indicate an awareness of the possibility of a problem arising. Certainly the Garda will liaise with the sporting organisations, and if that involves advice with regard to stewarding in addition to the advice they are giving already I am sure that can be met.
We have our fair share of hooligans here.
Let us not import them.
It is not a question of importing them. It is a question of stopping the guys here.
(Limerick East): Is the Deputy referring to the country or to this House?
Not the House.
In the Minister's initial reply he said that the Garda take full account of these events when they occur in order to provide for them in the future. I question that statement. Some months after the Glasgow Rangers match I was present outside Dalymount Park at the Ireland-Italy match and Garda personnel were almost non-existent, where the gates before the match had to be opened to prevent people from being crushed to death and where all of the money from a number of the turnstiles was taken in an armed robbery. All of that took place in an environment of absolute chaos. I drove around the ground on that occasion. Will the Minister ensure that for major matches in the future sufficient gardaí are present both outside and inside Dalymount Park to prevent a recurrence of these events? The Garda did not take full account of the events at the Glasgow Rangers match as was borne out a few months later at the Ireland-Italy match.
(Limerick East): There is not much one can say in reply to that intervention. It is an operational matter. I know the Garda take account of past experience when they are making arrangements. Probably it would be inappropriate for a lay person to decide on the deployment of gardaí. Even in the comments made last night which were published in the newspapers today there is a suggestion that it might not be a good idea to have extra men in uniform inside the stadium because it might lead to greater aggression and that the proper deployment would be on the access routes to the stadium. I am not familiar with the detail of what the Deputy has now said but I know that there was a concentration on the access routes to Dalymount on the particular day.