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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 21 Nov 1985

Vol. 361 No. 13

Anglo-Irish Agreement 1985: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Taoiseach on Tuesday, 19 November 1985:
That Dáil Éireann hereby approves the terms of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, 1985, between the Government of Ireland and the Government of the United Kingdom which was signed at Hillsborough, Co. Down, on 15 November, 1985 and copies of which have been laid before Dáil Éireann.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"having regard to Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution of Ireland;
recalling the unanimous Declaration of Dáil Éireann adopted on the joint proposition of An Taoiseach, John A. Costello and the Leader of the Opposition, Eamon de Valera, on 10 May 1949 solemnly reasserting the indefeasible right of the Irish Nation to the unity and integrity of the national territory;
recalling that all the parties in the New Ireland Forum were convinced that a united Ireland in the form of a sovereign independent state would offer the best and most durable basis for peace and stability;
re-affirming the unanimous conclusion of the Report of the New Ireland Forum that the particular structure of political unity which the Forum would wish to see established is a unitary state achieved by agreement and consent, embracing the whole island of Ireland and providing irrevocable guarantees for the protection and preservation of both the unionist and nationalist identities;
while recognising the urgent need that exists for substantial improvement in the situation and circumstances of the nationalist section of the community in the North of Ireland and approving any effective measures which may be undertaken for that purpose, refuses to accept any recognition of British sovereignty over any part of the national territory;
and requests the Government to call upon the British Government to join in convening under the joint suspices of both governments a constitutional conference representative of all the traditions in Ireland to formulate new constitutional arrangements which would lead to uniting all the people of Ireland in peace and harmony."
—(Deputy Haughey).

I am resuming where I left off last night and I am prompted to recall a statement made by the founder of this party when he resumed a speech in Ennis by saying, "As I was saying before I was interrupted...", referring to his having been taken away as a guest of the British nation. I do not claim to be in the same category since it was the time of the House which caused me to be interrupted.

I subscribe unreservedly to the desire for peace, unity and justice for all the citizens of this island and particularly for the Irish people and the Nationalist people in the Six Counties. I am not inferring simply geographical or political unity. Those things, yes, but unity in mind, body, soul and spirit as well. These are the aims for which my party were set up and to which I subscribe. These were the aims for which people strove through centuries of oppression and which caused the many insurrections and blows for freedom. The patriotic phrase "Ireland unfree shall never be at peace" is the true position to this day.

It is regrettable, distasteful and objectionable that this Government should have signed an agreement which reinforces the British shackles on this island and on our people in the Six Counties. It is also regrettable and despicable that the Taoiseach and his Government are collaborating with the British Government against the wishes of the majority of the people of this island. Nowhere in that agreement is there one sentence, one word of commitment by the United Kingdom Government to remove themselves and their supports from this island. Until that indication is given and that commitment is written into an agreement, any other agreement falls completely short of what is required.

We have been hearing much from Government speakers about the agreement giving the Government the facility to make proposals and suggestions. I contend that this is nothing new. We have been making protests, suggestions and proposals, but of course, Britain being the final arbiter on any such proposals or suggestions means that we have not gained much, if anything, from our proposals. This agreement does not alter that position one way or another. We may make what proposals and suggestions we like, but it was clearly stated and confirmed at least three times during the press conference after the signing that final decisions on matters relating to the Six Counties are the property of the British Government, while decisions for the Twenty-six Counties are to be made by the Irish Government.

Why that was added I am not so sure. Was there something sinister in that indication by the British Prime Minister at the press conference? More than once it was indicated during the press conference that the Six Counties are still the property of the United Kingdom Government. That sovereignty was subscribed to by our Taoiseach by his assent. He was sitting beside her and did not give any indication that what she was saying was unacceptable.

As did the Fianna Fáil Taoiseach. It was exactly the same.

A very well orchestrated propaganda job was carried out in support of this agreement. It was very sad for the people of this island to learn of the confirmation by this Government in an agreement with the UK Government of the partition of our country. I indicated earlier in my speech the various facets of the creation of Partition and the confirmation of it by the repeal of the External Relations Act, but this agreement stitches into an international agreement for all time——

Three years.

——the partition of our country. People supporting this Government and accepting that position should examine their consciences as to where they stand with regard to unity. Of course they may be taking a lead from the fact that the Taoiseach is regretting that Articles 2 and 3 are in the Constitution. We have heard again and again about the legitimacy of the Unionist position, which we are well aware is totally against unification. We on this side of the House have always said that there is room for each tradition, culture and ideology in this island. Even to the present day we have people in the Twenty-six Counties who are loyal to the union and to the British Crown. There were many more of them when the State was set up but gradually they became part of the so-called Twenty-six County Republic. There is only one Republic as far as I am concerned and it has 32 counties.

We are not helping to achieve unity by stitching into an international agreement the confirmation of what was done in setting up the Six Counties by means of a mythical Border. The purpose of the agreement, the bottom line, is devolved administration in the Six Counties and then it is proposed to liquidate the Conference.

Liquidation is the hallmark of this Government. I conclude by saying to my friends from Cork, former lord mayors, that those who have their photograph taken so often under the portraits of MacSweeney and MacCurtain should think of their ideals. It is attributed to Traolach Mac Suibhne that he said: "That we will achieve our freedom I have no doubt — that we will use it well I am not sure". This is an indication of the measure of freedom which we have achieved not being used so well in this agreement.

I do not wish to be contentious but, listening to Deputy Lyons last night and this morning, I have to say that the type of speech he made is not part of the solution of the problems of this island but is part of the problem. It is symptomatic of the partitionist mentality and the type of rhetoric that has done more to contribute to the problems we have today than it has ever contributed to healing those problems.

Deputy Harney sought to make a speech yesterday evening but was not permitted to do so. However, like other Members I have had the privilege of reading the speech and I wish to share some of the sentiments which she sought to express, and may yet have the opportunity of expressing, by saying with her and with colleagues on this side of the House such as Deputy Yates, Deputy Birmingham and others that as a member of the younger generation of politicians I have no interest in the tired sloganeering and redunant pseudo-nationalistic rhetoric which has contributed to rather than healed the divisions on this island. I have no interest in perpetuating the politics of the past which have copperfastened not merely the territorial partition of this island but the partition of hearts and minds of the people of two different traditions on this island to the degree that for decades we ceased to talk to each other and merely talked at each other, neither side really listening to what the other was saying and not really interested.

As a Member of this House I believe that I and all other democratically elected Members, have a duty to adopt new approaches and attitudes, to establish the framework for new structures which create the possibility of reconciliation and give to all those living in the North, particularly, the young people there the hope and possibility of peace. My commitment is to see a return to normality on this island and an end to the tragic and senseless loss of life and violence we have seen over the last 16 years. As democratically elected constitutional Nationalists, our primary concern must be to bring an end to violence and to establish the conditions within which there can be reconciliation between the two fragmented communities in the North and a healing of the divisions which exist between the peoples of two different traditions. A recognition of the existence of these two traditions, each imbued with different identities, political allegiances, aspirations and ethos was for the first time unequivocally and unanimously recognised as a political reality by all the constitutional Nationalist parties in the State in the Forum report. The need to accommodate the aspirations of the two traditions with new and workable political structures was also clearly articulated in that report in paragraph 4.15 which states:

The solution to both the historic problem and the current crisis of Northern Ireland and the continuing problem of relations between Ireland and Britain necessarily requires new structures that will accommodate together two sets of legitimate rights:

— the right of nationalists to effective political, symbolic and administrative expression of their identity; and

— the right of unionists to effective political, symbolic and administrative expression of their identity, their ethos and their way of life.

The agreement entered into on Friday last at Hillsborough provides a framework within which the legitimate rights of both traditions are recognised and can provide the basis for a system of Government within Northern Ireland in which both communities can participate on equal terms. The agreement affords an opportunity for a new beginning after 16 years of the most terrible bloody violence and instability which has at times threatened to engulf the whole island and which has in the short space of time since the signing of the agreement resulted in the death of three more people in the North.

It is an agreement born of a desire by the people on this part of the island, certainly by Members on this side of the House and also born of a desire held by members of the Fianna Fáil Party, some of whom have not been given an opportunity of speaking, to provide for peace and stability within a political framework which can, if given the opportunity to operate, provide the essential fabric to surmount and overcome the deep fears of the Unionist community and the deep sense of alienation felt by the Nationalist community. It provides a mechanism for the beginning of a solution. None of us pretend that it is a solution in itself.

I listened with interest to Deputy Cluskey's speech yesterday and I share all the anxieties and concerns expressed by him as to how events may unfold over the next six to twelve months. Anyone in this House who pretends that this is the solution to the problem is talking nonsense but I do not think that anyone is suggesting that. We are merely saying that this provides a new framework within which a solution can be found. We have a duty to provide such a framework and there is also a duty on Members of this House and the Government to do something to solve the problems on this island. Successive attempts in the past ten years to provide for a power-sharing Executive or form of partnership within the confines of Northern Ireland within which both communities could participate at an executive level in the administration of Northern Ireland, have sadly failed. As a result, a new framework had to be found which offered the opportunity of peace and progress. We now have the framework but, effectively having provided it, we must now wait and see how things develop over the next 12 months. We must seek to ensure that we overcome the very real fears which exist in the Unionist population.

No one in this House wishes to replace the alienation of the minority community in the North with a new-found alienation on the part of the majority community there. Let no one in this House underestimate the fears of the Unionist majority or seek to dismiss or ridicule them. These fears are bred of a belief that this agreement is the first step along the road to their being forced against their will into a united Ireland within which, they believe, their cultural heritage will not survive and in which they also believe that their religious and civil liberties will be threatened and diminished. They distrust and do not believe us when we say that we have no such intentions. They look to our Constitution and various laws in this State and perceive them as unduly favouring the ethos of the majority religion on this island and fear for their future. They see the preservation of the British link as a guarantee that they will not be drawn into and submerged within what they perceive as a State whose civil laws and administrative practices are, in areas of particular sensitivity, dominated by the influence of the Roman Catholic Church. Every time a bishop in Limerick or the Archbishop of Dublin instructs or lectures Members of this House on their duty to legislate in accordance with the teachings of the majority Church, the fears of the Northern Unionists and Protestants are heightened and their perception of the threat posed by us to them is, in their eyes, confirmed.

It has been said by the Taoiseach and other speakers, but it must be said over and over again in the hope that someone in a position of leadership within the Unionist community in the North will listen and accept our bona fides, that this agreement is not an attempt to provide for unity by stealth or to drag or coerce one million people into a Republican State with which they cannot identify and of which they wish to be no part. This agreement affirms that no change can be brought about in the status of Northern Ireland without the consent of the majority of its people. This principle should provide the Unionist community and the Northern Protestant majority with the assurance that is needed to lay to rest the fears that have been aroused within that community and the fears which men who seek to benefit from raising such fears are seeking to generate.

It is our duty in the weeks to come to emphasise our commitment and our desire to bring about peace and reconciliation. If on occasion what we say is greeted with disbelief we need to remember that the problem of the North today, the suspicions and fears of the Unionist leadership, are not a British problem or of British creation, not a creation simply of the UK Government which some people on the other side seem to suggest religiously as a matter of theology. The problems of the north today are as much our creation as of the British. Just as the Unionist community over the years have used political slogans and Lambeg drums as a substitute for political analysis, we on this side of the Border have shouted "Up the Republic", and spoken of unity in terms of territory and not people, in total disregard of the traditions and aspirations of the Northern majority.

To the Nationalist community the establishment of the Inter-governmental Conference as envisaged in the agreement is a recognition of their aspirations and a recognition in a formal treaty by the UK Government of the right of this State to speak for the Nationalist community. It will be the concern of the two Governments of the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, operating as of right as parties in the Conference, to deal with measures that affect the government of Northern Ireland. The agreement extends to this State, for the first time as a legal right, an opportunity to contribute to peace and reconciliation in a manner never previously possible.

Members of the Fianna Fáil Party have contended that the agreement offers us nothing. To that, it is worth saying that it extends to us for the first time since the foundation of this State the possibility of making a constructive contribution to the administration of Northern Ireland beyond merely engaging in rhetoric from this side of the Border. It affords and extends to us in the form of an international agreement an entitlement and a right not previously afforded to us. It affords us an opportunity to extend to the Nationalist community a form of representation that they had not perceived as possible to date and which responds to and recognises their political aspirations.

Like my constituency colleague, Deputy Kelly, Deputy Cluskey and others who have spoken, it was my hope that this agreement, of itself, could provide for a system of devolved government in Northern Ireland in which the democratically elected representatives of both traditions could work together for the benefit of all the people in the North of Ireland. But for devolution to work, an essential prerequisite is a general acceptance in both communities that there should be mutual participation in an executive decision making process. To date, that has not proved possible and there has been a failure on the part of the Unionist community to recognise the need for the minority community to participate at executive level in the administration of Northern Ireland. It is to be hoped that in the not too distant future the approach and the attitude of the Unionist majority will change. The desire to achieve devolution and the intention to seek it again in a way that will be acceptable to both communities are implicit in this agreement because the agreement envisages certain powers to be exercised within the Conference being devolved to a Northern Ireland executive acceptable to both communities. The hope must be that we will see such a form of devolution in the not too distant future.

Curiously, little if any reference has been made during the debate to the proposal in the agreement for the establishment of an Anglo-Irish parliamentary body. This emerges from the document published in 1971, the Anglo-Irish Joint Studies Report, and it is my hope that Members of the House, including those Members on the Opposition benches who are so hung up in the rhetoric of Republicanism and unity, will see the benefits and possibilities implicit in the establishment of an Anglo-Irish parliamentary body, not as a parliamentary forum to dominate the Unionists but as one capable of creating the possibility of establishing a forum within which democratic politicians could come together representing not merely the Dáil and the Westminister Parliament but also including democratically elected politicians from the North who are not currently members of the Westminister Parliament. They could join with us in a parliamentary body in which they could express their views and their opposition and allow for an interchange of views and an intermingling of thought which has not proved possible since the foundation of the State.

I would hope to have support from all Members of the House in calling on all sides to establish such an Anglo-Irish parliamentary body as soon as possible with a view to providing a forum for dialogue and debate of a constitutional nature, a forum in which all of us on all sides representing all traditions might isolate the men of violence from both communities.

I have listened more in sadness than anger to the Fianna Fáil contributions. Artificial irrelevant arguments about de jure recognition of British sovereignty and alleged constitutional violations are of no relevance to the thousands of families in the North of Ireland who have seen husbands, wives and children killed and maimed. Curiously, little reference has been made by Members on the other side to the plight of those families and their concerns. We have had what I would describe as an up beat version of irridentist green republicanism, speeches by members of a party locked into the politics of the past, caught in some kind of time warp or twilight zone in which the realities of today are based on what happened in the twenties. The vast majority of the people who are being killed in the North of Ireland today neither know nor care what happened in Ireland in the twenties or thirties. What they are anxious to see is a return to normality in their community and an end to the killings.

Deputy Haughey referred to Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution. There has been talk of subverting the Constitution, of moving away from our constitutional commitments. In his contribution last night, Deputy Flynn went so far as to suggest that the Taoiseach was disloyal to the Constitution, a sort of Fianna Fáil version of the shouts of "traitor" that the more extreme Unionists have thrown at the UK Prime Minister in the Westminster Parliament.

In the long, irrelevant and inaccurate legal lecture delivered by the Leader of the Opposition, it was interesting to note his anxiety to quote Article 2 of the Constitution but very coyly to avoid any specific reference to the content of Article 3. Article 2 refers to the national territory consisting of the whole island of Ireland. It is on that Article that Members of the Opposition have sought to beat the drum and said we were all about to subvert the Constitution — it was suggested that in some way we were handing over or renouncing a sovereign claim to portion of this island over which we currently exercise jurisdiction. Of course, the fallacy in this entire argument can be realised when you look at Article 3 and discover that the drafter of this Constitution, a former Leader of Fianna Fáil and former President, Eamon de Valera, had a far clearer view of where our jurisdiction lay. Article 3 states:

Pending the re-integration of the national territory, and without prejudice to the right of the Parliament and Government established by this Constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole of that territory, the laws enacted by that Parliament shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws of Saorstát Éireann and the like extra-territorial effect.

The Article effectively says that all laws passed by this Parliament apply to the Twenty-six Counties, to the Republic of Ireland as currently constituted, and have no application of any nature whatsoever to the North of Ireland. That Article effectively recognises the dominion of the UK Parliament over the North of Ireland and its power to pass laws that affect its daily life. The Article constitutes a recognition of the fact that we in this State do not exercise a sovereignty over the people of Northern Ireland to date.

Article 1 of the Constitution, which the Leader of the Opposition did not wish to quote, or forgot to refer to, does not confine the Irish nation to any territorial expanse and does not proscribe the Irish nation, whether some of us wish it to be there or not, from having a form of territorial boundary or border on this island and different forms of government. That Article refers to the Irish nation affirming its inalienable and indefeasible right to determine its relations with other nations and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural in accordance with its own genius and traditions.

The problem with the rhetoric of Irish territorial unity and with the redundant Republic rhetoric of decades gone is that it was based on the recognition of one tradition only on this island and never sought to implement the aspirations and intent of Article 1 of the Constitution which was to give a real recognition and role to the different traditions. For the first time in the history of the State that role is properly recognised and being given the opportunity to flourish in the context of the Hillsborough agreement.

References have been made to our abandoning the claim to Irish unity. In this agreement we are not abandoning anything because the agreement effectively respects the different aspirations of the two different traditions in the North and also our claims and aspirations on this side of the Border.

Personally, I would accord much greater importance, however, to the achievement of unity and reconciliation between peoples than to the achievement of a territorial unity. To Fianna Fáil it appears that the territorial imperative comes first. As a party who subscribed to the Forum report it appears that Fianna Fáil have learned no lessons. It is the emphasis on territorial unity as the all-important goal of Irish Nationalists which through the decades helped to bolster and add to the fears of Northern Unionists. The Leader of the Opposition is opposed to the agreement on the basis that it does not provide for territorial unity. That is an approach resplendent with all the effectiveness of the old political catch-cries and sloganeering of "Up the Republic." The proposal for a constitutional conference contained in the Fianna Fáil amendment is so out of touch with the reality of what is achieveable within the political cauldron of Northern Ireland as not to be worthy of consideration as a serious amendment to the motion.

Objections have been raised to our registering the agreement at the UN. Distinctions were made by the Leader of the Opposition between what he said in the communique issued in 1980 and what is said in the Hillsborough agreement. Much emphasis has been placed on the statement in the Hillsborough agreement that any change in the status of Northern Ireland can come about only with the consent of the majority of the people of that part of the country. The Leader of the Opposition admitted he made that statement in the communique issued in 1980 but he said that was only a communique, that it was not a legally binding agreement. Does that mean that when he put his name as Taoiseach to a communique issued jointly with the Prime Minister of another sovereign State, he did not mean what he was saying? Did he mean what he was saying? Was he committed to what he was saying? Did he understand what he was saying or is he suffering now from some form of temporary political amnesia for no reason other than that the present Taoiseach was the person who was at Hillsborough rather than Deputy Haughey? I fail to understand the Deputy's expression of an alleged distinction between what he stated in the 1980 communique and what is stated in the agreement.

As one who has been a Member of this House for only four years, it sticks in my gullet that Fianna Fáil should project themselves as the only true Republican party committed to unity. During my time here that party are the ones who have done most to confirm the fears of Unionists as to their fate if ever they should become embroiled in a united Ireland. When a Catholic Bishop said that all Members of this House — excluding, possibly, four of us — must enact legislation that reflects the moral teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, how many Members of Fianna Fáil or of the leadership of that party stood up in public to proclaim the sovereign right of Members of this House to behave as legislators representing peoples of different traditions in a sovereign Republic? Likewise, in the area of social reform — the litmus test, so far as many in the north are concerned, of our commitment to pluralism — where are Fianna Fáil when called on to protect the position of the minority in this State? What have Fianna Fáil done to indicate their willingness to act on the realities considered as necessary elements of a framework within which a new Ireland could emerge? These elements are stated clearly in the Forum report. They are in paragraph 5.2 (6) which reads:

Civil and religious liberties and rights must be guaranteed and there can be no discrimination or preference in laws or administrative practices, on grounds of religious belief or affiliation; government and administration must be sensitive to minority beliefs and attitudes and seek consensus.

That is not set out in the Forum report as something that may happen if and when we have unity. It is referred to as a necessary element of a framework within which a new Ireland can emerge. What contribution have Fianna Fáil made in the past four years to the emergence of such a new Ireland? I shall be very interested to hear what their members have to say on that issue when they move away from the Republican rhetoric we have been subjected to in this House.

The Leader of the SDLP, Mr. John Hume, in his address to his party's conference a week before the agreement was signed, said that if there was an agreement and if it should make progress with the healing process, he would support it. John Hume, Séamus Mallon and Austin Currie, the men who have been in the front line, whose lives have been at risk regularly as opposed to the position of the armchair Republicans on this side of the Border, have welcomed this agreement as a first step along the road to providing an accommodation and a solution to the problems of Northern Ireland. They see the agreement as providing a framework within which progress can be made to achieve peace.

My hope is that, as the dust settles and as people have time to think and contemplate, the Unionist community within the North will see the agreement as providing a framework within which peace can be achieved and normality returned to Northern Ireland; that they will see it as something which can provide hope for the young people of that region, a generation of young people who for the course of their entire lives so far have known of nothing but bombings, murders and maimings carried out in the name of Republicanism. My sadness is that the type of rationale we hear from the IRA and from Provisional Sinn Féin to justify their campaign of terror and violence, allegedly in the name of achieving unity, has put the possibility of unity light years away. The type of rhetoric we hear from them as a justification for their deeds has been put to us in a little more up-beat sophisticated form in the type of rhetoric that has been indulged in in this House by far too many members of the Opposition. It would have been my hope that we would all have been united in this House in support of the agreement but that is not the case.

In the hours remaining for this debate I should like to hear from the Opposition whether newspaper reports of an alleged shift in their view are correct. No such shift was evident in anything Deputy Lyons had to say this morning. In the context of the Opposition having had an opportunity to contemplate not merely what is in the agreement but also the consequences of what they have been saying, I should like to hear what they have to say now as to what should be done in the short term to bring an end to the killings and the violence and to provide an acceptable, devolved administration in Northern Ireland within which both communities can identify. Shouting, "up the Republic", will not solve the problem. It is time that lesson was learned by each Member of the House and by each party represented here.

A Ceann Comhairle, I thank you very sincerely for calling on me to speak in this debate. I am grateful for this opportunity in particular because I regard this debate as of major importance for this country. It is clearly the most significant thing that has happened in terms of Anglo-Irish relations and the situation in Northern Ireland since the Sunningdale Agreement 12 years ago. Comparisons are drawn with that agreement from time to time and, while what has happened under the Hillsborough agreement is perhaps less all embracing, less spectacular, than Sunningdale, in the context of its time the Hillsborough agreement is certainly no less important, and in many respects may prove to be more sound.

Many of us have complained that, but for the reaction of a spineless British Government in May 1974 — led by Mr. Harold Wilson with Mr. Merlyn Rees as Northern Ireland Secretary, neither of whom had the backbone to stand up for a week or so to undemocratic pressure against the power sharing executive — things would have been well ever since. What is needed now is some resolution by the British Government to stand up to something similar. The Unionist reaction to this agreement is very different from their reaction to Sunningdale. While a substantial segment of Unionists were prepared to go along with Sunningdale, particularly with the power sharing aspect, we would be foolish if we deluded ourselves into thinking that almost any Unionists agree with what is being done now. That has been pointed out in this debate by, among others, Deputy Cluskey, Deputy Kelly and Deputy Shatter and it is perhaps going to be the most significant reservation anyone should have, not the kind of reservations that are being expressed about the Government not getting enough in this agreement. This is a delicate situation; it is fragile — I think that was Deputy Kelly's word and I concur with it — and it will have to be handled very gingerly.

It is only fair to point out that, while one can see why the Unionists have such a widespread feeling that they have been betrayed in some way, at the same time one should not be afraid to say to them that the fact that they were not consulted during the negotiations which have taken place over the past 12 months is the fault of nobody but themselves. Would they have been prepared to sit down at a conference to discuss the kind of things that were discussed? Would they have been prepared to sit down and help to formulate an agreement the primary purpose of which is to vindicate the rights of the minority in Northern Ireland where they have not been vindicated up to now, and to redress the wrongs against them which have not been redressed up to now? Unhappily, I am afraid they would not.

When they complain about the lack of consultation — and ideally negotiation on every agreement should include the parties who will be affected by it — it is only fair to ask them who they consulted in the 50 years they were running Northern Ireland without let or hindrance. I have a feeling — I hope I am not doing them an injustice — that many Unionists believe that, because things are changing and because the balance is beginning to be equalised, those who are now beginning to have a say will be as ruthless as the Unionists were in the past 50 years.

This House should give them the assurance that that will not be so. I do not think any Irish Government seeking to underwrite the rights of the minority in Northern Ireland would ever allow a situation to arise where anything other than a fair balance would be achieved and maintained, and it goes without saying that no British Government would allow it either. At the heart of the fear of the Unionists is that terrible feeling that others may act towards them as they acted towards others.

That being said, this House and the country as a whole would do well to realise that the great difficulty in the coming months, and perhaps in the coming years, is not whether enough was got from this agreement but what the Unionist reaction is likely to be, how it is going to be handled by the British, how the Irish Government will face up to that, what sort of speeches will be made in this House and elsewhere in the Republic, and what effect that will have on the attitude of the Unionists. All those points are very relevant.

I do not see how anybody who has the freedom to exercise his or her judgment in this House can do other than support this agreement. It is a very important step forward in relation to Northern Ireland since the latest session of the appalling troubles began in the late sixties. The criterion by which we should judge the usefulness or otherwise of an agreement like this is what will it contribute to the well being of people on every part of this island and will the well being of all people be advanced or set back by this agreement? The answer patently is that the well being of all the people cannot be set back, and, hopefully, will be advanced and therefore we should give it our support.

Having sat here for some hours last night and this morning I cannot help thinking that much of what is said in this House is painfully irrelevant to the problems and troubles which beset the whole of this island, and particularly the northern part. The verbal Nationalist semantics of 50 years ago seem to be more important than the death, suffering and unemployment which are rampant on this island. We are expected to look backwards and not to look at the situation as it exists.

The person most quoted in this debate, as he often is in this House, is Eamon de Valera. To some Members of this House, and to some people in this country, Eamon de Valera is a bit like what the bible is to members of a fundamentalist sect — a text has to be produced for every conceivable occasion. We had a good example of that today when Deputy Lyons was speaking. The Deputy was speaking last night and he started again this morning. The Deputy started off with the phraseology that Eamon de Valera used after he had been arrested in Ennis in August 1923 —"as I was saying before I was interrupted." It is an indication of how important it is to have a text. If one has a text one cannot go wrong and one has the kind of reassurance that certain fundamentalists have when they are able to quote a particular text.

The truth is that there was not anyone in 20th century Irish public life who was better at adjusting to circumstances in which the country found itself at any time and there was not anyone better at doing what was practical for the country at any time, than Eamon de Valera. If he was not what I say he was, would there have been a Fianna Fáil Party? Within four years of having fought a civil war mainly on the question of the oath the Fianna Fáil Party sat in this House, and thank God they did. Ireland has greatly benefited from that fact. Let those who are worried now ask themselves if de Valera was a young man and was sitting in this House today, and his colleagues like Frank Aiken, Seán McEntee, Dr. Jim Ryan and Seán Lemass were sitting here today, and nobody had any labels attached to them and they were asked to make up their own minds on this agreement, does anyone seriously think that all of them would not support this agreement? I know that they would support it.

People think that the whole Nationalist concept and the whole Republican concept is something static and sterile which never moves or grows and which never gives. That is not so. Nobody knew that better than Eamon de Valera, the man who is quoted, as it were, in the case against ratification of this agreement.

Much argument has been made in this debate about the question of the recognition of British sovereignty and a breach of Articles 2 and 3 of the constitution. If there is a breach of any Article of the Constitution the only thing to do is to go to the courts on it as the court is the only body which can declare whether or not there is a breach. A political declaration that there is a breach is meaningless. Apparently we will not have any court cases because it is well known in advance that there is no prospect of their succeeding. On the whole question of possible breaches of Articles 2 and 3, admissions of sovereignty and so on, Members of this House who are genuinely concerned about that should read some of the recent articles. In a number of journals in the last few days, Professor Kevin Boyle of UCG makes it absolutely clear that there is no validity in those points and he drew attention to the consequences of our entering into the EC and our signing of the Treaty at that time.

This agreement is entirely consistent with the Forum report and with the spirit of the report. I supported both the Forum report and its spirit and a week or two later I had the Whip of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party withdrawn from me for doing that. Because I supported the Forum report to the extent that I was expelled from the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party, it is consistent that I should support this agreement today. The agreement will give rise to difficulties. Some will be severe and some prolonged and most probably in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately there are a lot of us in the South who do not seem to care very much about the difficulties in Northern Ireland. Nonetheless, the fact the those difficulties would clearly arise and one could say that they have already arisen within the last few days, does not mean that the Government were wrong to negotiate this agreement.

Should the Government have simply done nothing and left things as they were? Should they have made no attempt to break the log jam? No one could seriously suggest that a serious effort was not warranted to try to break the log jam of death, suffering and economic destitution which now constitutes so much of the scene in Northern Ireland. If nothing was done what would have happened here in relation to Northern Ireland was that we would have had more empty rhetorical statements, more drum beating and demands for the impossible and an unwillingness to accept anything less than the unatainable. Would that be a proper way to conduct Anglo-Irish or Northern Ireland policy? It would not, and no one could suggest that it would. It was only right that every effort should be made to come to an arrangement of some kind that would advance the situation in some way, however delicately and however slightly in certain respects. That was done. An agreement that has some remarkable qualities, which is ingenious in certain respects, has been achieved. Its very ingenuity is one of the factors adding to the fear of the Unionist population at the moment.

At a time when it is not entirely unfashionable to criticise many aspects of the public service it is a great pleasure for any of us to be able to stand up in this House and say that the skill, endurance and determination of men like Nally, Donlon, Lillis and Dorr are a great credit to this country and the Irish public service. I wish things could be so organised that the skill that men of the type I have mentioned have shown, could also be shown in other Departments because there are men of no less skill in other Departments whom the system defeats from making the sort of contribution they are quite capable of making. In paying tribute to those who went through the mechanics of bringing about this agreement one should also pay tribute to those who politically, perhaps more than anyone else, helped to bring it about, the SDLP.

I cannot imagine a more sterile situation for any constitutional political party than that which faced the SDLP since that sorry day in May 1974 when the Northern Ireland power-sharing Executive was allowed to collapse. They were a parliamentary party with no Parliament to go to. They had to argue the case of constitutionalism, when all the evidence around them seemed to indicate that they would get nowhere because the British Government would never listen to them. After 11 patient years their point of view has at long last prevailed and, when the time comes at some distant point in the future to assess their contribution of sheer political skill, one of the smallest parties in Europe, who spent less of their time in Parliament than any other, will turn out to have been one of the great successes in terms of constitutional parliamentary politics because of their triumph over all the pressures on them of violence from one side and of being totally ignored from the other. Congratulations are in order to such a gallant band of men and women as the SDLP for what has now been achieved.

It is remarkable and should not be ignored that worldwide reaction to this agreement has been so entirely favourable, thank goodness. I cannot recall anything of that nature happening before. We would be very foolish indeed now if we were not to avail fully of that goodwill. Goodwill is the important thing. People talk of very large sums of money which I am sure will be welcome too, but they are less important than the positive goodwill and support that are there on such a wide scale at present.

I reiterate what I have made clear. I intend to vote for this agreement in the division that will take place here this evening. Such action is portrayed very frequently as "O'Malley votes with Government". I am not voting with the Government. I do not care who is or who is not voting for this agreement. I will vote for it because I think it is right. I believe I will be voting with The Workers' Party who I understand will be voting for it. The Workers' Party are not normally my cup of tea, but I am voting for this agreement because I think it is right and for this House to reject it would be unthinkable.

What would be the consequences of this House rejecting it? If Deputies feel that the consequences of rejecting it would be unthinkable they should not vote against it. I shudder to think what the consequences of rejecting it would be. I can understand that many people who are no longer in this House and who were in it in the past, some of whom are still alive and many of whom are not, would have welcomed the opportunity to support today a document with a new concept of Anglo-Irish relations, a new attitude towards Northern Ireland, something that would have been difficult to envisage only a few years ago. I remember sitting in the Cabinet one day in 1972 when the then Taoiseach, Deputy Jack Lynch, produced a telegram he had received from the then British Prime Minister, Edward Heath, which said: "Do not complain to me about things that are happening in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is none of your business". Thank God the day has dawned when that is no longer so.

The agreement signed by the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister on 15 November last represents the remarkable outcome to historic discussion aimed at securing a real change in the whole context of the problem of Northern Ireland. We have heard no more elegant tribute to just how remarkable that outcome is than the one from the last speaker, Deputy O'Malley. For more than 60 years we have witnessed a sterile debate about the divisions on this island. Successive attempts to come to grips with the problem have foundered on the rocks of Nationalism and Unionism, a Nationalism where unity has traditionally and narrowly been defined in terms of territorial unification, and Unionism which has concentrated on the preservation of elitist political and social structures for the benefit of in reality a small minority of the Unionist population of Northern Ireland.

This island cannot become a natural political unit until the deep divisions between communities North and South are reconciled, until a common consensus about the best route forward economically, socially and culturally shall emerge, until the differences in tradition and belief and the diversity of the separate communities are recognised and accepted as a whole. We must understand, as John Hume at the last SDLP annual conference said, that the recognition of diversity is the prerequisite for political unity. It is the people, not the island of Ireland, who are today divided. The people of this island have paid a bitter price for the failure to accept these differences of culture and tradition and to respect the integrity of belief with which they are held.

The core of the problem is manifested in the deep divisions between the two communities in Northern Ireland. A bitter harvest of violence and murder, of economic stagnation and decline has been reaped from the alienation of the minority community in Northern Ireland. An even more bitter harvest would be reaped by any attempt, now or in the future, to enforce any form of political reunification in a wider context without the full assent of the Northern majority.

There has been no tradition of political accommodation in Northern Ireland. This agreement enshrines an unequivocal acceptance of the legitimacy of both traditions in Ireland. It represents for the first time a positive basis for fruitful dialogue and action between the two traditions leading to reconciliation, peace and stability. Moreover, in establishing the Republic's right to regular, formal participation in Northern Ireland's affairs it constitutes an important step towards breaking the political deadlock which has characterised not just Northern politics since 1920 but the politics of this entire island. The agreement primarily represents a framework but it has been widely welcomed for coming at the right time — at a time when mutual trust between the communities is at its lowest ebb.

The novel inter-governmental arrangements do not inhibit the prospect of involvement by the majority community. The framework set out in the agreement represents an historic opportunity. The challenge which we still face is the more formidable task of translating respect for the two traditions into forms of Government and institutions acceptable to each tradition, and ensuring that those traditions are adequately represented at all levels of policy making, administration and social and community activities. The task facing the two Governments is to fill the vacuum that exists in the political life of the communities in Northern Ireland, and to remove the internal tensions and communal fears of dominance and discrimination that need very much to be allayed.

The participants in the New Ireland Forum had identified the need for a new momentum. The Forum said that Britain had a duty to respond now "in order to ensure that the people of Northern Ireland are not condemned to yet another generation of violence and sterility". It also acknowledged that there would have to be some reconciliation between the communities in the North before there could be any reconciliation between the two parts of Ireland.

The parties in the Forum by their participation in its work committed themselves to join a process directed towards that end. The agreement signed last week will bind the British and Irish Governments together in action which will show that this process is more powerful than the IRA and any Unionist extremists who want to take to the streets. It is a matter, as the joint communique said, of determination and imagination. It is not an attempt to wrap up the future of the North by dismissing the majority community and imposing solutions against their will.

The consistent position of the Labour Party has been that progressive politics in Northern Ireland can only be based on a clear understanding of the cultural, civil and human rights which must be respected there, as indeed they should be respected in any truly democratic society. Such a basis links a socialist approach in Northern Ireland to democratic socialist politics elsewhere, and by this link seeks the support of socialists who share a concern for peace and justice. In this instance I was pleased to see that the British Labour party, the main Opposition party in the House of Commons, warmly supported the agreement and that we received messages of support and solidarity from the Socialist group in the European Parliament.

Unfortunately, the difficult and apparently unpalatable realities of political life in Northern Ireland have become an excuse for some in deciding to face only half the issues, leaving the other half to take care of themselves or to be exploited by political and paramilitary forces with scant regard for democratic principles. There has always been a temptation, for instance, to ignore the cultural divide or to dismiss it as some imperialist hangover or as another unacceptable face of capitalism which will disappear as history takes its course on this island. Significantly, the political rhetoric of both communities has often echoed the triumphalism of majorities. By not mentioning the existence of minorities in the south or, indeed, the north, the problem can be glossed over as if it did not exist.

This kind of political rhetoric has a long history here. In the 18th century the Protestant ascendancy in Ireland could regard the existence of the majority nation as being beneath political consideration. When certain Unionist leaders have spoken about democratic rights of "the Ulster people" or "the people of Northern Ireland", they have tended to dismiss the rights of the substantial Catholic minority who are also in Northern Ireland. The Nationalist tradition has also been diminished by attempting to adopt an almost exclusive definition of what it means to be Irish and by allowing a particular religion, namely the Roman Catholic Church, to become too closely identified with Irish identity. Many of the standard phrases of our political culture in every day use, even in this Chamber, convey the impression of a homogeneous people with a singular thread of history. We speak of the Irish people, the people of Ireland, our national tradition. This kind of imagery has one outstanding attraction: its simplicity.

The failure to recognise fully cultural rights is central to the problem of the minorities in all of Ireland; the Protestant minority in the whole island and the Roman Catholic minority in Northern Ireland. In the light of the historic circumstances, it is clear that the cultural traditions in Northern Ireland are a prime political reality and that the unresolved problems relating to their co-existence have to be tackled as a matter of priority. This failure to achieve a stable co-existence hitherto has in large measure explained the failure to effectively tackle the grave socio-economic problems which affect Northern Ireland, to achieve a dimension of co-operative endeavour between North and South even where it is crystal clear that such co-operation on selected economic issues would be to the mutual benefit of both the Republic and the North. One graphic example of that has been the act of fíor-gael Republicans in blowing up the electricity connection between the Northern Ireland Electricity Board and the ESB in the name of a united Ireland.

The possibility of advancing measures which will work to the economic advantage of our communities North and South, and especially in those areas which have suffered most severely as a result of the instability of recent years is a vital part of the framework established by this agreement.

We cannot afford to under-estimate the opportunities which are being offered to communities North and South by this aspect of the agreement and the prospect which it offers for promoting greater communication and more open dialogue between individuals whose political allegiance and opinions might be diametrically opposed but who share a common economic interest which may now, possibly, win support in the form of up to $1,000 million of external economic assistance.

By way of illustration I would point to one small but not insignificant example of how this dimension of the agreement may operate in practice. As Minister for Labour, I have been particularly struck by the potential for broadening the experience of young people and assisting them in their employment needs through establishing exchanges between community training workshops, North and South. I intend to try to build on the limited experience of young worker exchanges between community managed projects in the Republic and Northern Ireland. These exchanges have been developed in recent years and have served both to benefit the individuals involved and to promote greater understanding between communities. The growth of community development in Ireland has given way to local organisations working energetically to identify the employment needs in their area and seeking to harness the resources and potential to meet these needs at local level.

Community groups are well placed to build bridges in a divided society, to look to new approaches, to accommodate a reconciliation of views. It is a measure of the significance of this agreement that, in the process of its implementation, it will enable both North and South to develop and improve the economic links which have been long established.

I should like to turn to the role of the Labour movement on this island and the way it has been involved with the struggle in the last 100 years to try to find accommodation between North and South, between the different traditions. The trade union movement in Ireland has from its origins — which we commemorate in the foundation of the Belfast Trades Council in 1881, the Dublin Trades Council one hundred years ago, and the establishment of the Trade Union Congress in 1896 — been a united nonsectarian force. This unity has survived the weaknesses endemic in a labour movement caught in the vortex of a Nationalist struggle. Throughout the last century memorable occasions have occurred when co-operation was reestablished among the disadvantaged and the unemployed who were traditionally divided on religious grounds. Trade unionists will, I hope, recognise their real interest in putting pressure on their political representatives to endorse political structures and institutions which can draw support throughout the community and avoid the sterilty of Orange and Green exchanges. The inequalities within their communities have been exacerbated through unemployment and dependence on social security. The joint efforts of two Governments to promote the economic and social development of those areas which have suffered most severely can harness the energies of the trade unionists who courageously promoted the "Better Life For All" campaign which was aimed at promoting peace on the factory floor. That is one area in that bitterly divided community of Northern Ireland where sectarian violence is least evident.

I look forward to the operation of the Inter-governmental Conference as a means of addressing key issues in such areas as job discrimination and job creation. As an instrument for promoting cross-Border co-operation it will function somewhat on the basis of the Council of Ministers of the European Community, an arena in which I have worked closely with the present Northern Ireland Secretary of State, Mr. Tom King, when he held the United Kingdom brief on employment issues. I have a high respect for his ability and, indeed, his commitment to find a practical solution to problems that previously evaded all solution.

Both the legal systems of the Republic and Northern Ireland are underpinned by legislation emanating from the European Community and by the requirements of many international conventions to which the Republic and the United Kingdom Governments are signatories. I am eager to build on the sharing of experience between AnCO and the Northern Ireland Authority and in industrial relations where the Labour Relations Agency in Northern Ireland already plays a variety of roles which I have identified in proposals for industrial relations reform.

Here in the Republic of Ireland the Conference will also provide a framework for reviewing the work of the regulatory bodies designed to reduce inequality of employment opportunity between the two religious communities — the Fair Employment Agency and also the Equal Opportunities commission for Northern Ireland. These are critical areas in which law enforcement can provide an instrument for reform. Unemployment often breeds a cynicism about the equity of legal remedies. This in itself can become a major source of alienation and result in a reluctance even to pursue legitimate complaints.

I want to address my comments to those people, North and South of the Border who feel that this entire debate and entire issue is something that has nothing to do with socialists or those who would espouse a left wing philosophy because I believe that they are wrong in that view. It is my considered opinion that the Anglo-Irish agreement should be recognised by the left in Ireland as an unique opportunity to break out of the sterile world of civil war politics in the South and the sectarian politics in the North so as to establish a strong socialist and labour movement on this island. The labour movement in Ireland, both North and South, is industrially strong and politically weak.

The absence of a strong labour political presence in Ireland has contributed directly to the low level of living and working conditions here today in comparison to the rest of Europe. No labour movement, no matter how influential economically can sustain and consolidate the interests of its members and their families if it does not have direct political power as well. Nationalism and Unionism have been cynically exploited by gombeen merchants in the South and sectarian industrialists in the North to divide and weaken the strength of the labour movement. In the short term, their actions resulted in temporary success, but the very failure of native Irish capitalism North and South has been borne most heavily by the working populations of both communities and indeed both traditions.

Poverty does not discriminate on the grounds of religion. The absence of a strong politically based labour movement has seriously inhibited the successful economic development of our economy since 1920. Despite our protestations of independence or having broken the link with Britain too often we look for comparison to the United Kingdom and draw our political models from its experience, which because of its size and economic history, is both misleading and unhelpful.

I would put a counter-view for consideration to this House. The smaller countries of Northern Europe with a strong labour movement, both economic and political, give us a better indication of what Ireland has lost because of the divisions of 1920 and the failure and ineptitude of both Unionist and Nationalist conservative parties. It is a matter of historical record, in fact, that in 1920 — the time when we were first about to get our independence — Finland, Denmark and Belgium had an economic and social position similar to ours. Today, we lag far behind them, socially and economically. The labour movement has played a major, yet quite different role in each of these three countries since 1920. Today, politically strong, the labour movement and the left in these three European countries have ensured a standard of living and economic development which has so far eluded us on this island.

For me, as a democratic socialist, the real tragedy of the division of this island has been the resultant economic backwardness which our working people have had to endure at a time and during an era when it was not necessary and could have been avoided. To add insult to injury, the social and economic exploitation by Irish capitalists, in the name of either Nationalism or Unionism, was eased by the way in which romantic ideals and irrational fears were cynically manipulated to ensure the division of the Irish working class.

What has been achieved in Denmark, in Finland and in Belgium since 1920 has been denied in Ireland largely because of the failure to establish an acceptable political unity on this island and the consequent deliberate exploitation of that division by native capitalists who, in the final analysis, were not even successful in creating a stable economy, North or South.

Since 1920, however, and particularly since 1969, the left in Ireland has been uncomfortable in dealing simultaneously with the issues of Nationalism and Socialism. A 32-county Workers' Republic appeared unacceptable to Loyalist workers in East Belfast, and the advocacy of the two nation theory in effect condemned the Republic to the perpetuation of the sterility of civil war politics. Many Irish socialist thinkers have preferred to ignore, or wish away, the ideological problems of the national question and have sought simply, as democratic socialists, to decry violence and terrorism. I do not think that is an adequate response, and our lack of a clear position on this issue has confused and disillusioned many of our supporters.

I have always argued for radical democratic socialist politics on this island as I am convinced that that holds the only prospect for real social and economic progress. We certainly need such a policy. We have the highest level of unemployment and today, both North and South the fastest growing labour force of all the European Community countries.

Let me turn now to the agreement and to the way in which it emerged. I was, I think, the first Southern politician to formally endorse, on behalf of the Labour Party at the 1983 SDLP Conference, John Hume's call for the establishment of a Council for a New Ireland which subsequently became the New Ireland Forum. I did so because socialism in Ireland needs a new framework within which a revitalised labour movement North and South can demand and obtain real social and economic progress.

It is my considered view that the Forum report and the Anglo-Irish agreement provide a framework within which both traditions can be accommodated and whereby the labour movement can advance. Accordingly, I appeal particularly to Unionists in the North, who have at heart the real interests of their working class constituents, to give the framework of the agreement a chance to work. The guarantees in the agreement for the political and cultural position of the Unionist community have been openly and warmly given by us, perhaps not by all of us, but certainly by the majority in this House. I believe and am sure that the Dáil will substantially endorse this agreement and will want, as generously as is possible, to ensure that it works for the benefit of all the people on this island.

It is a matter of demographic history and for most families a degree of loss that our people, North and South, have of necessity travelled to the four corners of the world, driven by the social and economic failure of Irish politics at home over the last 100 years. They were spurred on to ensure political success in the new lands to which they travelled. The success of the Irish in the politics of the United States is well known, but today, Canada, Australia and New Zealand as well as Britain have in their Governments and their Parliaments, politicians of clear Irish origin who have successfully operated in large and culturally diverse countries. Are we incapable of emulating their success and do they not all wish that the divisions which drove away their grandparents should at last be resolved by this generation of Irish politicians on this island? It is some time now since the former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, James Prior, shortly before his departure from that post, told the House of Commons: "The dangers for the people of Northern Ireland of sitting back and doing nothing are greater than the obvious risks of seeking to make some political advance." This agreement confirms a remarkable act of faith in the scope for political initiative. It should not be seen as any abandonment of the Unionist people. Indeed, the undertakings given by the Republic recognise the integrity of the Unionist and give the lie to any threat of domination of one community over the other. It is a clear indication of the seriousness and the potential success of the agreement.

I listened with respect to the contribution offered here today by Deputy O'Malley. He articulated what the supporters of Fianna Fáil feel around the country which, regrettably, is not being articulated for reasons that are entirely due to the decisions of the Fianna Fáil party here — and which are entirely their affair because it is not for me to comment on the internal affairs of that party. Whilst he said that he may not articulate the views of those people in Fianna Fáil who are allowed to speak in this debate at present, I put it respectfully to the Deputy who represents Fianna Fáil in the House at present, Deputy O'Rourke, that Deputy O'Malley has certainly represented the views of many Fianna Fáil supporters whom I happen to know. He did so in a spirit, not of going over to the Government side as he clearly indicated, but of simply supporting something that should in his view be supported.

This agreement should be given a chance to work. Most importantly, it is the only agreement that is available to us and, as he said, is the only one to emerge over the last 11 years in a manner that enables the prospect of some progress to occur in Northern Ireland. I strongly commend it to the House.

I am very pleased to be able to contribute to this debate which I regard as a very important one. I regard it as an honour to speak to the amendment to the motion put down by the Government.

In the course of a very broad ranging speech, particularly interesting from an historical, social and political point of view, I regret that the Minister for Labour tarnished his contribution at the end by introducing politics, something many of us had decided — under instructions from our Leaders — we would not do, that rather we would remain unacrimonious in debating this issue. He spoke of what he is convinced is the Fianna Fáil point of view throughout the country. I strongly refute the allegation he made about our party. I do not wish to travel the path of division that he took in his remaining words. But I want to place on record that the sentiments I shall express are those held by the party I represent.

There are two issues in this debate that I want particularly to highlight. The first is the role of the Opposition. I have had occasion many times in this House to highlight what I saw to be the extreme reaction of the Government to anything said by the Opposition. On many occasions they clearly indicated that we had not the right to oppose any debate or motion which they introduced in this House. On educational matters I have had occasion to become extremely irate with the present Minister for Education when she chose to say, in so many words, that we had not the right to criticise policies she was introducing.

When this present Dáil began its first session on 14 December 1982, the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism introduced a motion in the House for the reform of Dáil procedures. I spoke on that day and said clearly that while such revised procedures would be welcomed with regard to committees of the House, Question Time and so on — leading to a more businesslike, efficient approach to business — there still remained the clear duties of the Government and Opposition — the Government to propose, the Opposition to oppose or amend. In this instance that is precisely what we have done. We have stated clearly what is our position and put forward a constructive amendment. When we become aware that this agreement is awash with approval by other countries, it would be as well to dissect such blanket approval, to pierce through the mists of euphoria that surround it. It appears that almost any country one can think of — for example, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, all of the EC countries — has come out in favour of this agreement. However, on the one hand to say that that is their approval and this is Fianna Fáil's non-approval is so to belittle the matter as to render it a very foolish agreement. It should be remembered that those countries are concerned with their affairs. They are concerned, in a very peripheral sense, with what happens in the small island of Ireland. They welcome what the information given them envisages as a step forward. We see the matter acutely as it happens within our own country. Therefore, to equate worldwide approval with domestic disapproval is not to equate like with like.

Without seeming to be declamatory or vain, I would point out to the House that we have a clear duty — being the largest single party in the House and representing the greatest number of our people — to examine every aspect of legislation put before us and, in particular, to give this agreement vigorous scrutiny and decide where it conflicts with the best interests of our people. Having done that our next duty is to welcome any commitment which would better the living conditions of the people in the North of Ireland.

We wish to clarify our position vis-à-vis the Constitution and our claim to unity. We clearly oppose the confirmation of the constitutional status of Northern Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom. We oppose the British sovereignty claim over the Six Counties because it undermines our claim to unity. That is the point most worthy of attention in this debate. The very fact that this Anglo-Irish Agreement has been signed as an international agreement to be ratified legally has put back the legitimate claim to unity. It is sad that that aspect has not received much comment in the course of this debate.

It would be very wrong of us, as the largest party in this House, not to examine every line of this agreement, not to point out clearly where it conflicts with our Constitution. That is precisely the basis on which we voice our disagreement to it. Whilst we remain in Opposition we shall continue to exercise the right of putting forward our points of view, of having them listened to, accepted or rejected, but certainly of having them expressed. It is regrettable that people appear to think — because we have a point of view and have taken a particular stance — that we are obstructionists. That is not the case, as our amendment clearly demonstrates. Indeed, I might quote here the penultimate paragraph which reads:

while recognising the urgent need that exists for substantial improvement in the situation and circumstances of the nationalist section of the community in the North of Ireland and approving any effective measures which may be undertaken for that purpose, refuses to accept any recognition of British sovereignty over any part of the national territory;

There is no dichotomy in our debating issues which have arisen in this House. We point out the dangers, what essentially this agreement means to the people of Ireland. We then move on to express approval of any inter-action between the communities which will lead to an improvement in their living conditions and their hopes. We have also pointed out the pitfalls inherent in this agreement. Leaving aside the constitutional issue, with which I have dealt, one of the real dangers of this agreement is that England may well now feel they have done with the question of Ireland, that they can effectively put it on the back burner.

Whilst the question of the North of Ireland is of everyday, consuming interest to all of us here, in the English context it amounts to just one more problem in the overall canvas of their many private, domestic and international affairs. I could imagine the British Prime Minister feeling well pleased with her day on Friday last, with the year's events which led to the signature of the agreement, going back to her domestic and international problems and saying, "That is the end of Ireland now." That is the great fear we would have, a fear that in effect the movement had ended. As well as underlining and emphasising Partition, rather than any diminution of it, our fear would be that this agreement would place people in a limbo, in a suspended type of situation, without any movement.

The Minister for Labour in his contribution, which was historically very interesting in a political sense, spoke of the great movement in co-operation there has been between labour agencies in the North and the South. He spoke of the various cross-Border activities in which he had been engaged in co-operation with various Northern agencies. This type of thing has been going on for some time. To claim that the signing of this Anglo-Irish agreement will suddenly lift all that to a hugely different plain is to give it an importance which it does not really have. There has been co-operation between North and South in various areas for a number of years.

I am particularly interested in co-operation in the educational field. I have been involved in this area, not on the ground but through various debates, seminars, lectures and practical expositions of what has been happening in education and co-operation between the North and the South. Working along those lines I went to the library to look up the work of a famous educationalist in Ireland in 1830. It is very instructive to read what JKL, the Bishop of Kildare, the great Dr. James Doyle, said in 1830 about the education of young people: "I do not know of any means which would prepare the way for a better feeling in Ireland than uniting children at an early age". Those remarks of that eminent educationalist are relevant 155 years later.

There have been great moves in co-operation. At primary level the INTO are a 32-county union representing national school teachers, North and South. At second level there are the great activities of Co-operation North which have facilitated for a number of years the movement of students and the growth and vigour of ideas in second level education. I noted from their recent seminar and annual meeting that they had in a practical fashion identified students who had left their second level schools in the North and come South to engage in school and domestic life here, while a like number had gone northwards to do the same. This is practical politics which I would like to see extended.

There is great scope in third level education for both student interaction and economic growth. The Williams Report of 1984 was later consolidated and elucidated by the Higher Education in Ireland, Co-operation and Complementarity Conference which was sponsored jointly by the Northern Ireland Economic Council and the National Economic and Social Council. It went through the recommendations of the Williams Report and came up with practical propositions. It is in the area of higher education that there is greatest scope for economic development. There should be a fuller investigation into sharing of educational facilities at third level, not only in Border areas but throughout the country.

All of us on local authorities have for years been assuming our own mantle of cross-Border co-operation by exchanging visits. I have happy memories of visits as chairman of my local authority to the local authority with whom we had twinned in the north and of the ideas with which we came back, particularly in the leisure field.

The recommendations which have come up in the joint survey by the National Economic and Social Council and the Northern Ireland Economic Council relate mainly to third level education. They suggest that we should have a higher education liaison committee which would operate North and South. The demographic structures of student population here mean that many more young people are seeking access to third level education than there are places available. In the north the numbers seeking access to third level education had been static for a few years and have now begun to decline. In the years ahead there will be an over-capacity of places in third level institutions in the North and we will have an under-capacity. There is clearly room for huge improvement in the use of facilities.

When I read the original Williams report and the survey, it quickly emerged that the dissemination of information to would-be students, both North and South, is inadequate. It should be made clear to students what type of courses could be obtained in the North and in the South. There should be an equalisation of grants as between North and South and students should be informed about the qualifications necessary to get into third level as distinct from what we operate with the leaving certificate. There would have to be harmonisation in those areas before this could be pursued fruitfully. The initial surveys indicate that the attitudes picked up by students from the South who go North and vice versa are enormously positive.

The young people have come to learn that the people from each jurisdiction are generally warm, welcoming and receptive. There should be harmonisation in relation to the availability of places and in relation to the rates of grants and entry qualifications. It is not widely known, for instance, that there is no institute for the study of veterinary sciences in the North and students from there have always had to come South to pursue their studies. The Minister for Labour spoke about the co-operation he had received with the development of the two communities and there is still great scope for development in education. This is an area which would open up great vistas and potential for improvement in the relationship between the two communities.

The role of the SDLP has been mentioned by Members from all sides of this House. There is no doubt that over the past number of years the SDLP have borne the heat of the day in Northern Ireland. They have laboured under vicissitudes and stress which nobody in this House could really understand. In every structure that has been attempted their voice has been heard. Whilst it might seem to the SDLP and some of their members that we in Fianna Fáil take issue with them, it is a falling out among friends. The friendship and links between the SDLP and our party remain strong, tangible and real. When the history of these times is written the efforts of the SDLP will be well documented.

I wish again to state clearly our role as the major Opposition party and to clarify the very real dangers inherent in the Anglo-Irish Conference. We have pointed out the diminishing of the idea of unity contained in the agreement. However, having pointed that out we must express our point of view. As far as every day life in the North is concerned, education, housing, prison, social and work opportunities, lack of discrimination in jobs and so on where there is room for improvement, of course all people of goodwill hope that improvements will come about, but that in no way takes from our essential opposition to the article in the agreement which underlines Partition and does nothing to remove the veto and the prop which the Unionists had for so many years and which is the main obstacle to a move forward in the North.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate and I support the motion moved by the Taoiseach on Tuesday. I do so because I recognise that any arrangements which improve conditions and benefit the people of Northern Ireland, this community and mainland Britain, are deserving of our support. It is unfortunate that all parties do not subscribe to this view and I hope that, even if at the 11th hour the main Opposition party cannot see their way to supporting the motion, they will not obstruct and oppose it. To do so would be to further delay any possible improvement. It is clear that good work has gone into this agreement and that the negotiators deserve the utmost credit.

It is important to look at the origins of this agreement. Over the past 16 years many lives have been lost, mainly in Northern Ireland, but also here and in Britain. Innocent people have been killed and many others have suffered as a result. As another speaker said earlier, this agreement can only help to improve the situation. We must face up to the difficulties ahead. The agreement will not be a panacea for all ills but it represents a start. If the agreement were to save even one life it would be worthwhile. When people are killed, while we express sympathy and outrage at the time of the atrocities, we soon forget what has happened. We should never forget that many lives have been lost and it is important that those of us elected to serve the people should do nothing by our words or actions to affect the wellbeing of people in Northern Ireland.

The agreement represents a fresh hope and start, and deserves to be given a chance. Of course, it will need to be improved at the review period and the people involved in working out the agreement may, from time to time, see that amendments are necessary. However, it must have the support of this House. Many of the Members opposite hope that progress will be made but they will never relinquish their aspirations — and mine — to an eventual reunification of Ireland. The agreement is a first step towards that goal and in the short term it will improve the situation in the North.

Our ultimate objective must be the cessation of violence and attacks on people. There has been far too much loss of life, bitterness and attacks on others by both sections of the community. While I do not want to dwell on them, they should not be forgotten as it is only by remembering what has happened that we can move forward. I hope that the work carried out by members of the Government and various dedicated civil servants who worked on last Friday's agreement will result in peace and reconciliation in the days, months and years ahead. There is no change in the constitutional position. That is clear from the joint statements in the communique, and trying to sidetrack the agreement is not helpful.

Our clear aspiration is for unity but we must realise that that can come about only with the consent of the majority up there. I particularly support the role of the SDLP in the past few months and over the years. They have shown dedication in the face of opposition from the men of violence and from others. They have worked for peace and reconciliation with dedication when life could have been much easier for them. They know that progress will take a long time. Great respect is due to their leaders and to rank and file members of the party, as well as to supporters. They have been a live force in trying to keep democracy alive in Northern Ireland.

I hope that in the implementation of the agreement both Governments will work hard to ensure the well being of the people in the North, to endeavour to improve their lot. I hope the British Government will act with resolution and commitment to ensure that the terms of the agreement will be fulfilled. It will be a long road with many obstacles and difficulties from time to time, and both Governments must show a clear understanding of their job and act with resolution and dedication to see that the ultimate targets will be achieved — the improvement and the well being of the people in Northern Ireland.

This agreement is but a first step and it should be given a chance to work. It is unfortunate that already people have tried to obstruct it without even knowing its terms and its aims. I hope that in the years ahead our Ministers, particularly Labour, Justice and Education, will bring the expertise of their Departments to bear on the promotion of co-operation between the two parts of the island. There can be co-operation in regard to policing, transport, justice and health through exchanges of views. I welcome any prospect of investment in the North, particularly the money which would appear to be coming from the US, which would increase industrial job prospects for the people of Northern Ireland.

As I have said, it is important that both identities and traditions in the North will be respected. This can be done through this agreement, which must be given a chance. Eleven years after Sunningdale we have been given another chance and we must work to achieve our goals. I hope we will seek compensation for the efforts put into this agreement, and I hope that when the Conference meets its members will dedicate themselves to achieving progress for the benefit of all sectors throughout the island.

I look back with sadness at the cost of the violence in the past 16 years, not only in lives but in damage to property. That should encourage all of us to give the agreement a chance to succeed and to consider any arrangment that will benefit the people of the North whose lives must be safeguarded. I hope nothing said in this debate will do anything to prevent achievement of that aim. I appeal again to Members opposite to support the agreement fully. Perhaps it can be improved in the days ahead but it must at least be given a chance. To obstruct it or to hinder its effectiveness could cost more lives. The Member sitting opposite is a reasonable and dedicated worker in this House and I am sure he believes that this arrangement must be allowed to work. I will conclude by giving the words of a former American President:

Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though chequered by failure, than to take rank and file with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight which knows not victory nor defeat.

I hope we will face up to this challenge of obstruction which may cost more human lives. I hope the statement issued by Fianna Fáil yesterday will mean they will come some way towards accepting the agreement.

Séamus Mallon said on RTE during the week that five times each week he must drive past Milltown Cemetery and Long Kesh and that as he drives past those places he asks himself if there is anything politically he can do to end the suffering of people in the prison and to prevent the kind of tragedy that led to those other people being in the cemetery. He continued that that was the background against which he had to measure everything and said: "In many ways the peace and happiness and the lack of tragedy in lives of people in Northern Ireland are more important than my own deeply held convictions and let me tell you that my ideological convictions are very deep indeed."

I wish to approach my contribution to this historic debate in that spirit. I shall begin by saying that there are positive detailed aspects of the agreement which I hope will help to calm fears and to reduce the alienation of the minority in Northern Ireland. There are aspects of the agreement whereby the British appear to be committing themselves, given certain conditions, not to impede ultimate unification. There is some effort by way of the agreement to reduce the day to day suffering and, overall, there is a final review procedure so that this document can never be said to be the final word on Northern Ireland.

The agreement provides legitimate scope for genuinely held reservations. I do not think anybody is suggesting that one should not have some reservations about such an historic agreement. Not to have reservations would be to negative the whole notion of parliamentary democracy. I have personal reservations about the agreement and this is the place to mention them. For instance, I am concerned that some of the responsibility this State will have now may turn out to be responsibility without power, but I hope that will not be the case. I am concerned too, about the Conference. I know there are people who differ strongly from me on this but I am concerned that along the way the Conference may become somewhat defunct and taken over by the devolution process in which case what we are doing here would turn out to be setting up an arrangement for devolution. It is important to mention that reservation.

I share increasingly the views of my constituency colleague, Deputy Kelly. I think we can say this without rancour: Deputy Kelly expressed concern about our doing a deal with the British Government in the sense that, unfortunately for all of us, as we know too well, our history has shown that any time we have put great faith in that quarter we have been let down. That does not mean we should not try again. I share Deputy Kelly's concern in that regard. It has become increasingly difficult in this part of the island to rise above that suspicion in regard to doing business with the British Government. However, we must make the effort and regard it as part of a process.

Another reservation I have is that the British Government apparently can end this agreement or not implement it in certain areas. That is apart from the section 11 review clause. One would have expected that there would have been something in the agreement to prevent that onesideness.

These are some of the reservations that one legitimately is entitled to hold and to put forward and this is the place to put them forward. These reservations on my part are purely on a personal basis. I do not think anyone could read the agreement and say it is perfect. In fairness to Members opposite, they are not saying that. What they are saying is that there are reservations but that we must keep them in perspective.

I wish to pay tribute to the SDLP. Though tribute has been paid to them so many times, we cannot do so often enough. They are the people who, through the long dark days of the seventies, were the authentic voice of the Northern Nationalists. I can do no better than quote the Leader of the SDLP, John Hume, when at his recent Party conference he said: "We have stood up for the needs and the rights of our people against all attack, whether from bombs or bullets, from gunmen or Governments and from those who would rule and those who would ruin us." One could not disagree with those sentiments. The SDLP know all about the long dark days of the seventies. They know about the bloodshed and about the widow makers of Northern Ireland. That party stood between bloodshed and democracy. They stood for decency and constitutional politics for a long time in an unsalaried, unselfish but dedicated and committed approach to solving the problems of this island. They have been in the forefront of the Nationalist cause. They have refused to yield to the men of violence. Without the SDLP throughout that time in Northern Ireland, there would have been to a much greater extent a valley of blood.

I do not wish to make a lengthy contribution to this debate. My purpose in speaking is to point to some positive aspect of the agreement and to express a number of personal and deep reservations about it and to point, too, to the tremendous role played by the SDLP throughout those past difficult years.

It is no secret in this House that I would have been one of those people who, among others and through my party, would have been advocating a conciliatory line to try to bring about progress in Northern Ireland. I am addressing my comments to the nation as well as to all sides of the House. In terms of reaching some conclusion in this whole area, I remind the House and the people outside that this evening this agreement will be passed by this House. I do not think there is anyone on any side of the House who would wish to obstruct the agreement. I do not think there is anyone either in the House or outside it who would not wish the experiment well and it is an experiment, no more and no less than that. Neither do I think there is anyone on any side of the House who would not wish the agreement luck and say that, once we have had our debate here and aired our differences, the people are entitled to the agreement being allowed a fair chance and the chance to find out what it can achieve as another experiment in the long line of attempts that have been made to make progress in this very difficult area.

Therefore, after this debate has concluded I should like to see all sides of the House forgetting the deeply held differences that have manifested themselves. Nobody should stand in the way of those who consider the agreement to be exciting and to have every chance of success. At the same time, those people can reciprocate in a sincere way by allowing that, if there are people with genuine reservations, they are entitled to those reservations but that, in the meantime, we should be prepared to wait and give the agreement a chance to work.

Once passed this evening the agreement should attract the commitment and the loyalty of all constitutional politicians as an experiment adopted by the Oireachtas and by the people of the State parallel to a very careful, critical monitoring of the situation. I do not think anybody suggests that a sovereign parliament would not monitor the working of such an historic agreement and all Members of this House will be monitoring it too.

It was clear from the television scenes of last evening of the clashes with the Unionists in Northern Ireland, how much work we have to do to calm the fears of the Unionist population. That is why I stress once again that we should take our decision in this House with dignity and respect and work together for peace and reconciliation on this island. I believe there is nobody in any party who would be found wanting in that search for peace and reconciliation, whatever political labels people may wear in this House. I make a plea that there be no division among the Nationalists and the people in this part of the island who have a special place in their hearts for our fellow Irishmen, the Unionists, and to seek a United Ireland based on the diversity of the traditions which exist on this island, where total political and religious freedom is taken for granted and not something one still has to fight for.

There are some positive aspects to this agreement but I hold some very deep reservations about others. I commend the role of the Social Democratic and Labour Party in a search for peace on this island and I make a plea for less division among Nationalists in trying to tackle this intractable problem. At the same time there is no need for anybody in this House to give up, water down, walk away from or feel ashamed of his national aspirations to Irish unity. I came into politics 20 years ago, and one of my reasons was to see in my lifetime genuine unity, North and South, and I and other Deputies will continue to work to that end. I do not believe we will get that unity by watering down genuinely held aspirations, but what we must do is hold those aspirations dearly and honestly, express them openly and then seek to work an accommodation with people who hold opposing views. I believe that is possible. One need only point to the United States of America where there is a tremendous diversity of opinion, race and colour. They have found expression in a common movement and a common cause, which is the United States of America.

They are the challenges. I honestly believe that this generation of Irish people will not thank politicians if in the long term we do not express our views honestly, pursue them honestly and seek to keep division among the people on this part of the island to a minimum.

I can well understand and sympathise with the feelings of Deputy Brennan because of the situation in which he finds himself. It is regrettable that the Nationalists in this part of the country cannot manage to achieve unanimity on a tentative approach to a matter of this nature. It is apparent from what he said that he regrets that fact too and I am afraid it does not present our position in the way I would have liked. This is a matter which should transcend party politics and it is regrettable that it has been made an issue of party politics. That was one of the great things about the Forum, on which I had the honour to serve. Being an assembly of all Nationalist opinion in the island, we discussed our varying emphases on our positions, and there were differences in emphasis, but at the end of the day we achieved that unity in our position which is what made the Forum report and the Forum accord a major factor.

We should have maintained that unity in the present position. After all, we all subscribe to the common bond of being constitutional Nationalists. That factor united us in the Forum. In the Forum we all recognised that although we had that common bond there was one section of the four groups which held a special position, and that was the SDLP. We had to recognise that they were in a different position because they lived in the North day in and day out. It was part of their experience and the experience of the people they represented. They all lived with those problems and suffered in the same way. We accorded them a very special position. We all listened to them with particular attention because they were speaking of what was happening on the ground. That is why I and my party had to give particular attention to the views and feelings of the SDLP on this agreement.

I have fears about this agreement and I hope they will not be realised, but one is bound to have fears and concern about this. Had the SDLP, being the constitutional Nationalists who live in the North, not wanted this agreement, I would have had very serious and grave doubts about it. They feel that in the interests of the people they represent there is promise and hope in this agreement. That was a major factor in our supporting this agreement while hoping and praying it will achieve its objectives, but that in no way detracts from our aspirations for a unitary State, to which we all subscribed in the Forum report as being the ideal solution. I do not want to go over ground which has been covered many times before, but I can find nothing in this agreement which in any way derogates from that aspiration.

Much play has been made about the fears and insecurities of the Unionists and the effect this agreement will have on them, but fear and insecurity are not commodities which have been confined in the North to the Unionists. All the people of Northern Ireland have suffered from the appalling breakdown of law and order, the killings, the explosions, the brutalities, the unemployment and the devastations of the economic position in the North. In relation to Unionist fears and insecurities do they want that situation to continue or do they want it to change? The years have rolled on and that position has continued. There has been plenty of talk from here about working for a unitary state from a constitutional position, and from the North about their fears and the ongoing security question, but the killings went on and there was no light at the end of the tunnel — nothing to work for.

The object of this agreement is to allay the fears of the Nationalist community and give them an involvement in the governing institutions in the North which affect them, and all the decisions which affect their daily lives, their employment or lack of employment, and their very life and limb. If the agreement can give them a feeling of involvement with their own destiny and a measure of control over their position, the hope is that this will induce the Nationalist population to rely on the institution being set up by the agreement and take away the very substantial measure of support which they have given hitherto to paramilitary and destructive organisations. We must accept that, before we can make any progress in the North, the first thing we have to achieve is peace so that the economic situation can hold and improve. Without that basis for work, nothing can be achieved.

The terms of the agreement are very modest. The agreement does not give the Conference any power to make laws in the North or to direct anybody to do anything. All it does is provide that this Conference being set up may make representations on various matters. As practical politicians we all know about making representations. We make them every day of the week to different Ministers and we know what the effects of the representations may be. I will not say that they never come to fruition, but the very major proportion of the representations we make achieves little.

The Unionists must appreciate that power is not being given to the Conference, that it is a matter of making representations. The Irish Government have been given power to put forward views and proposals, but there is no obligation on the powers that be in the North to accept those views or proposals. It is a very modest step forward. There is a fair measure of truth in the proposition that it does not do a great deal more than put a formality on an already existing situation. There was nothing to stop the Irish Government from making representations to the British Government or any other Government either directly or through one of the international institutions, and I am sure such representations have been made on many occasions.

We have had many debates here in which we called on Ministers of the Government to make representations on issues affecting Northern Ireland, so it only puts a formality on an existing situation. Perhaps the Taoiseach put it rather strongly when he said that Nationalists could now raise their heads knowing that their position is and is seen to be on an equal footing with that of members of the Unionist community. That puts the context of the agreement rather further than it warrants. That agreement, giving a right to make representations only, will not put the Nationalist community on an equal footing. It falls far short of that position.

The fact remains that the Unionist community appear to have reacted against it. They see a situation where political representatives and civil servants of the Irish Government will go North and will be involved in meetings and in making representations. The big factor in what we are saying seems to be that this will take place in Belfast and that it will be some kind of an affront. I wonder how important is the location of the meetings of the Conference? Perhaps it would be a good idea to give consideration to having the Conference meet sometimes in Belfast, sometimes in Dublin, and sometimes in London. The object of the exercise is the hope that this will bring about a settling down of things in the North which will arise from the Nationalist community diminishing their level of support for paramilitaries.

If that were to be achieved and if there were a substantial reduction in if not a disappearance of the violence that we have known, would not moderate Unionist opinion come to the conclusion that this was a step forward? If the violence were reduced in that way there might be a rethink by moderate Unionists and perhaps that fear and insecurity of which they make so much would be reduced substantially. Too much is made of this fear and insecurity on the part of the Unionists, particularly in the context of this moderate agreement. On the one hand the Unionist position is backed up by the British guarantee and, on the other, by the guarantee given in the Forum that only with their consent would their constitutional status be changed. Those guarantees and the other major guarantee of having a substantial majority, 1,000,000 strong approximately, are balanced on the other side of the scales against the Irish Government's right to put forward views and proposals.

I was a participant in the Forum and I am a member of the Irish Labour Party. I subscribe to the objectives of the Forum and I aspire to the ideal of the unitary State, but to achieve that end requires work, sacrifice and concession not only by Unionists in the North but also by us down here as Nationalists. We require to do many things to work towards that end. We need to make much more progress much more quickly in the liberalisation of our legal system than we have been prepared to do. A very tentative beginning was made with the measure on contraception, which was welcome. It was a measure difficult to achieve but it was a start. However, we have much more to do and we must be prepared, if we are for real on this aspiration, to have a rethink on our attitudes to our civil legal system. I find it very interesting and just a little strange that Article 8 of the agreement refers to "areas of criminal law applying in the North and South respectively which might with benefit be harmonised". I wonder why the question of the harmonisation of the law should be confined in the agreement to the realm of criminal law. I would have thought it an exercise well worth while to say that we would also work towards the harmonisation of the civil law under which very great disparities exist between North and South, particularly in the realm of civil rights. For example, the right to obtain a divorce in respect of a marriage which has broken down exists in the North and does not exist here.

I advocate strongly a liberalisation and progress of our civil law, but from that I would not have it implied that there is in any way any lack of religious freedom in this part of the country. Such is not the case. I am proud to be able to stand here and say that as a member of a very small religious minority, the Jewish faith, we in our very small community here, which represents a very tiny percentage of the population, enjoy and have always enjoyed full and complete religious freedom under successive Governments. Both Coalition and Fianna Fáil, going back over the decades, have bent over backwards beyond the call of duty to ensure that every requirement needed by our faith to enable it to be practised was provided for it. I must pay tribute to that here as I have done in fora abroad, most notably in the Council of Europe.

However, this is not to say that I am happy with our legislation on matters of personal status. I am not. There is no case for having the legal system of the State in accord with the faith of one religious entity, even one representing a massive majority of the people. I do not believe either that liberalising our laws here will in any way make those adherents of the Catholic faith any less sound in the observance of their religion. I do not think that has happened to the Catholic population of Northern Ireland and if such liberalisation was brought in here I do not think it would in any way adversely affect that. Religious rules or precepts of religion do not require of necessity to be enacted in law.

I do not say — although it has been said many times — that this should be done for the purpose of making us here more attractive for unitary purposes to the North. It should be done for its own sake. That has been said many times. However, if it was done here an unavoidable consequence of it would be that Unionists in the North who place a very high value on the liberal nature of the laws on personal status would regard the State here in a somewhat more amenable light. A very major step forward would result if efforts were made to harmonise the civil law more so than the criminal law as referred to in Article 8 of the agreement. We can make progress if we want to in our aspirations towards achieving the unity of this country. We have work to do to achieve that and we must readjust our thinking. It will not be an easy or a short task. Will that task ever be capable of achievement? I believe it will. I recall something that made a great impression on me. Among the many deputations we interviewed at the Forum was Dr. Cullen, Professor of Philosophy at Queen's University, a person in the Unionist tradition. He gave oral evidence to the Forum on 8 December 1983 and I quote from a section of that interview at page 34 of the Forum report. He was asked by my party colleague, Senator McGonagle, in what circumstances he would envisage a no-change attitude notwithstanding that the Unionists may change their minds. Dr. Cullen replied:

If we believed that the Unionists would not change their minds we would not be here today wasting our time. We are here out of a conviction that Unionists can be persuaded, provided certain guarantees are specifically stated ... But I am saying that there is no possibility of that in my generation...

Therefore, he holds out that, given the right conditions in the North and South, we could, though not in this generation, see a move towards the position we all hold so dear, that is the achievement of a unitary State by consent.

I hope sincerely that the agreement will make some initial progress towards that end in the North, and if we are prepared to take the bit between our teeth in our legislation here and in other ways perhaps the next generation will see that achieved. Sometimes the intransigent positions that one hears about and sees emanating from the North would lead one to abandon that objective but we must not do that.

Quotations have been the order of the day in the course of this debate with people like Mr. de Valera and Presidents of the United States being quoted. I should like to give a quote in conclusion from a different source in the context of recognising the great task we have ahead of us in trying to achieve peace on this island and working towards the aspiration of our unity. The quote, which emanates from a section of the Talmud known as the Ethics of the Fathers, was written many thousands of years ago and is as follows:

It is not incumbent on you to finish the task but neither may you desist from it.

The work towards that end must go on however long it may take.

Mr. Cowen

Mindful of this momentous occasion when we are discussing a proposal which seeks to regulate Anglo-Irish affairs as they affect Northern Ireland, I should like to stitch into the record of the House the fact that I, like all members of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party, will always lend support to anything that will help the Nationalist community to live in equality with their neighbours in the North of Ireland. However, the fact that the two Governments intend to bring this matter into an international forum and register it as an international agreement between two sovereign States entrusts upon this party the necessity to examine its implications in detail. We are obliged to assess how the agreement will stand up to the fundamental analysis of the problem as outlined in the Forum report. What we are not doing, although I regret to say it was tried by certain Members on the Government side of whom I would have expected more, is to embed ourselves in old traditional ways.

The Minister for Education in her contribution referred to drum-beating and suggested that the Government parties were the progressives in modern Irish political life. The Minister for Health and Social Welfare, whose contribution has been stitched into the record, will live to regret the day that he questioned the commitment of our party. He said he gave us the benefit of the doubt in regard to our rejection of violence in all its forms. In the last three days we have been attempting to put the constitutional Republican position in a modern context and not as a holy grail of sterile Nationalism or Republicanism as was inferred by some Members on the Government side, in particular members of the Government who said they entered into this agreement in good faith. It is important that it goes from the House that we see the problem in a modern context. We will develop that philosophy adhering to the fundamental Republican principles on which our party was founded. The Taoiseach, and the Leader of our party, at the outset of the debate requested that there should be respect for the sincerely held views of all Members. All Members from this side of the House who have contributed adhered strictly to that request but, unfortunately, some members of the Government have attempted to preach to us as to what we should do in this regard. They failed to show the mutual respect to Members which they expect Nationalists and Unionists to show each other in the North of Ireland.

I request those on the Government side who will be making a contribution later today to acknowledge that what we have been saying in the last three days represents sincerely held views. We respect the views of other Members and we expect that our sincerely held and expressed views are accepted as such without Members inferring or imputing any motivation to be party political or otherwise. Having listened to almost the entire debate — I believe I was present for more of the debate than any other Member — I believe those comments are necessary to set the record straight.

The reason why we must take a stand on this relates to the fact that this is no tacit agreement. It is not a new consensus that has come about. It is proposed that the agreement should be registered in an international forum when it has been passed by the House. While fundamental objections were outlined cogently and coherently by our party Leader in relation to the dilution of the integrity of Irish sovereignty in the agreement we also object to its compromise on the legitimacy of Irish unity. In registering the agreement at the UN the Government, on behalf of the Irish people, will be limiting the ability of future governments to raise this matter as they see fit on behalf of the Irish people at international fora in future. I wonder if it is wise that the historic and legitimate right to unity of our people — that is not an attempt to diminish the Unionist contribution that can be made in this country — is to be limited. The implications of registering the agreement at the UN should be thought about long and hard. I question whether the Government have this right.

The New Ireland Forum put in a modern context the position of constitutional Nationalist parties on this island. While the Unionists did not see fit to attend the Forum those who read the report, and understand the spirit of it, will agree that it has taken into consideration Unionist feelings as much as it could do in their absence. We have heard in the course of this debate about the hard work that has been done by the public servants, and the Government, in the preparation of the agreement but we must not forget about the hard work and dedicated service of public servants in bringing the New Ireland Forum to fruition. The Forum set out the parameters within which any Irish Government is entitled to come to a Treaty arrangement — this agreement will have Treaty status — with the UK in regard to the North of Ireland.

It is important therefore to understand and remember that the party leaders in the Irish Government signed the New Ireland Forum, as did the Leader of the SDLP and the Leader of this party. We should not forget that set out there was the context in which we should pursue Anglo-Irish relations. I submit that on a careful reading it is not said anywhere in the New Ireland Forum report that one can enter into an agreement of the type which we envisage here. It is stated in paragraph 5.10 that other views can be discussed. In paragraphs 5.4 to 5.10 inclusive are set out precisely the structures to which those Nationalist parties would subscribe in the event of there being an international agreement with Britain. To allow the spirit of the Forum to continue, paragraph 5.10 is inserted to ensure that we continue to talk, continue to try to improve the situation.

When it comes to entering into a solemn international agreement between two sovereign States, no matter how committed you are to believing that a certain structure will bring lasting peace and stability, you cannot go outside the parameters of the Forum report. By doing so you are rejecting the clear, fundamental analysis of the consensus of the four Nationalist parties in that document. It states the truth, that it transcends Northern Ireland. More importantly paragraph 4.1 states:

The present formal position of the British Government, contained in Section 1 of the Northern Ireland Constitution Act, 1973, is that the only basis for constitutional change in the status of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom is a decision of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland. In practice, however, this has been extended from consent to change in the constitutional status of the North within the United Kingdom into an effective unionist veto on any political change affecting the exercise of nationalist rights and on the form of government for Northern Ireland.

This agreement does not deal properly with the Unionist veto which, since the inception of Northern Ireland as a state, has proved, to have been the main obstacle to any proper political development or progress as we understand it in any western parliamentary democracy. That veto ensures that Unionism remains an exclusive establishment, that the rationale of Unionism will fail to accommodate the legitimate and historic right to unity in this country.

We have heard much from the Government benches today and over the last few days about the necessity to accommodate Unionists. I agree that that is patent and obvious. It is necessary to accommodate Unionists and Unionism in any new agreement, but obviously the corollary to that must be that it is necessary for Unionism to accommodate the Nationalist aspirations of the community in the North and the stated and obvious desires of the majority of the people on this island in relation to whatever new political structures we wish to develop to bring political change, progress and stability to this country.

As long as that veto remains — and make no mistake, it does remain in Article 1 of this agreement — Unionism need never accommodate Nationalism. The unacceptable face of Unionism which we have seen most clearly over the past three or four days since the announcement of this agreement will remain in the leadership of Unionism as long as the British Government accept its validity within the context of Northern Ireland, a state which has been set up — and this is an historical fact — to maintain sectarian dominance, and the boundary of which is artificial. It makes no political sense. It is economically destructive and has proved to be more culturally divisive than anything else in the country since its foundation. We cannot deny that it is an historical affront to the people of this country. I ask Members on the other side of the House to accept the sincerely held views of members of this party, many of whose families followed that party since its inception and stayed with it because it holds those views dearly.

While we are not here to espouse sterile Nationalism, we are here to explain it in its modern context. That does not mean we should be asked to deny the existence of the fundamental analysis which forms the very basis of Fianna Fáil and what that party stand for. It is wrong to ask us to do that. It is not so much a price that we are not prepared to pay; it is a price which we cannot pay because we sincerely believe that to do so is to depart from the fundamental problem. It has been stated by certain Members of this House that by so doing Fianna Fáil are not interested in day to day reconciliation or in what is happening now. We are interested. We want lasting peace and stability. We want to accommodate our brothers and sisters who are Unionists and have a Britishness. We say that it is not incumbent on this Dáil to deny the facts as they are seen. If, by the removal of the veto, the unacceptable face of Unionism is brought back to the political reality that we are all living on one island and must accommodate each other, not simply accommodate them, then we may see some semblance of political realism and progress from the Unionist side.

For too long now we have been told that we must do this and that. The Forum report shows precisely how much we are prepared to do. The fundamental point is that Unionism must face reality, and not be held up in a threatening way. Unionists must not fear an overriding Nationalist flood. They must realise that as we must live with them and want to live in peace and stability so, too, must they live with us. Within the context of the natural unit of this country we are prepared to work as perhaps no generation has been able to work before us for lasting peace and stability on this island, giving the Unionists irrevocable guarantees to ensure that their identity is protected and that their contribution or potential contribution to this country is recognised.

In relation to the specifics of the Anglo-Irish agreement, it has been said that we have here a consultative role. Anybody acquainted with legal terminology will see that there is no consultative role in this agreement. Nowhere in that agreement is there a legal obligation on the British Government to come to the Irish representative, prior to any decision being taken which affects the Nationalist majority, to discuss it with him. I wish the Minister, Deputy Barry, luck on the basis that this agreement will be passed this evening, but it is his onerous responsibility to make the first move. At all times the first step must be taken by an Irish Government, placing an additional obligation on them. But having instigated the move, having expressed their views in the agreement, they have no input into final decisions, which remain with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom Government. That is not a consultative role in any legal sense.

Primarily this agreement is based on the good faith of the British Government. It appears the Taoiseach is convinced of their good faith. If that is so one might well ask why have we not seen, prior to this agreement, conduct on the part of the British Government which would demonstrate that good faith? Why was the signing of this agreement not suspended until we saw how that good faith operated? When in the past ten to 15 years, let alone the past 60, have we seen evidence of that good faith? Only 12 months ago the same United Kingdom Prime Minister, in the House of Commons, questioned the right of the Irish Government to make representations on behalf of the Nationalist minority. One might well question this sudden conversion on the part of the British Prime Minister reputed never to make a U-turn. So far we have not seen any evidence of that good faith. Therefore, why was it necessary for us to participate in this solemn agreement before it was forthcoming? It is easy to see why, because Article 11 of this agreement states:

At the end of three years from signature of this Agreement, or earlier if requested by either Government, the working of the Conference shall be reviewed by the two Governments to see whether any changes in the scope and nature of its activities are desirable.

Nowhere in that Article does it state that Article 1 is renegotiable; everything in the Inter-governmental Conference is re-negotiable except Article 1. One might well ask why is that important to the British Government? Why was it necessary for the British Prime Minister to state it three times in the course of the press conference — because this does give legitimacy to the Unionist position and dilutes the integrity of Irish sovereignty, flies in the face of Irish Nationalism, past, present and future. That is why we had to participate in this agreement. That is why there was the build up over the last three months, because Britain got what they wanted from an Irish Government — the legitimacy of the Unionist position within a Northern Ireland context. That does not mean that I am not interested in everyday reconciliation. This agreement constitutes a major step forward for British interests in Ireland, for Unionists' interests in Northern Ireland, being totally exclusive of Nationalists' interests in the Six Counties which the same agreement seeks to protect. That carries the seeds of more alienation that anything else of which I am aware and I know the views of some Northern Nationalists.

For those reasons I express deep reservations about this agreement. I wish it well if it is to be ratified because I do not subscribe to violence. I said in my opening remarks that I deeply resented the Minister for Health and Social Welfare last evening deciding, in his usual sanctimonious way, to give me, as a member of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party and my colleagues the benefit of the doubt in regard to my abhorrence of violence. Quite rightly, he proceeded to denounce IRA violence. However, he did not denounce, as have motions passed in this House, institutional violence. That is why we question the validity of an agreement which fails to come to grips with fundamentals. We must come to grips with fundamentals if the registration of this agreement means that we limit the ability of this and every future sovereign Irish Government to discuss the matter of the legitimate right to unity wherever and whenever we please. I do not believe any Government have the right to do that.

It was suggested that had there been other members of Fianna Fáil here they would have voted in a certain manner in relation to this agreement. I am the least experienced member of the Parliamentary party. It has been suggested by others that young people are in favour of this agreement. I am the youngest Deputy in this House and, in relation to both those suggestions, I have to be honest, that it would be purely subjective for me to make any statement in relation to them. I do not believe it relevant for me to say whether I think Fianna Fáil people or young people would accept it. I do not see how any politician would have the ability to look into his heart and contend that those people would have accepted it, or that young people accept it. I do not know and I do not think anybody else does either. In refusing to accept the implications of this agreement, stating simultaneously — because there have been implications to the contrary by other Members in this House — that we seek reconciliation and support any advance in the Nationalist position in the Six Counties, I believe we are adhering to the very fundamentals on which this party was founded, a party which, when founded, had to stand alone. This party must now stand alone regardless of whatever is the media perception of our stand nationally or internationally. I believe our stand is right, that if one wants to deal with the British Government, to bring lasting peace and stability to the northern part of this country, the fundamental analysis of the report of the New Ireland Forum must be adhered to. I defy any Member of this House to show me where there is in that report of the New Ireland Forum any criterion, any reason that we should agree to this agreement and have it registered in an international forum. Paragraph 5.10 of the New Ireland Forum report said:

The Parties in the Forum also remain open to discuss other views which may contribute to political development.

To be consistent with the fundamental analysis of the New Ireland Forum report can anyone show me how one can legitimately sign this agreement?

I ask the House to consider the positive aspects of our amendment, to accept its fundamental concept as constituting the basis for real negotiation and settlement of this problem.

I am privileged to have the opportunity to contribute to this historic debate. All too few of us have been able to do so. The Anglo-Irish agreement represents an important and quantifiable leap forward in the relationships between this country and the United Kingdom and between the two traditions on this island. No agreement between sovereign Governments about issues which are deep, fundamental and divisive can possibly be reached without some degree of give and take on both sides. If, as we all believe here, a political dialogue is the only way to solve what is practically insoluble, it follows that such dialogue is not about victory or defeat but about compromise, negotiation and agreement. So it is with this agreement.

The judgment of this House should, therefore, be primarily directed to assessing the content of the agreement and its prospects for success. Does the agreement represent a good deal for the people of Northern Ireland? Does it represent a good deal for the people of the Republic? Does it represent a good deal for the people of the United Kingdom? They are the questions. I would not attempt to answer the last one because that is a matter for another Parliament, but I will try at least to answer the first two.

Before doing that I want to comment on one of the most remarkable features of this whole affair. For once public expectations were substantially exceeded by what was achieved. Any of us who have ears have been hearing that message in recent days. Over the past year the man in the street had little or no expectation that the tortuous process of dialogue between the two Governments would lead to very much. At least that was my perception. The reaction since last Friday has been dramatically different. People of various political persuasions and of none are enthusiastically endorsing the agreement and certainly everybody I have met wants to see it work and wants to give it a chance. Some have reservations about detail but I have not met anyone who is not in favour of giving it a chance. That is encouraging. It has spread across party political divides. The man in the street is invariably a good barometer and he seems to be saying loud and clear that this is a good agreement, a substantial step forward and we should get on with it.

I cannot, of course, speak for the man in the street in Northern Ireland but at least from the Nationalist side I am encouraged by the positive and practically unqualified support of the SDLP. We all are. I fervently hope that in time the Unionist man in the street may also see that this agreement represents a fair and good deal for him as well.

I now turn to the terms of the agreement itself. The preamble is very enlightening. It sets the tone and establishes the objectives when it refers to diminishing divisions, achieving lasting peace and stability, reconciling the rights of the two traditions, those who wish for no change in status and those who aspire to a united Ireland. It affirms a complete rejection of violence and refers to building a society in which all may live in peace, free from discrimination and intolerance. Finally, it refers to the participation of both traditions in the process of government. Surely they are commendable objectives which all of us in this House would share. The Articles which follow seek to build a framework — nothing more — upon which a building which would embrace those noble objectives can be erected in time.

In Article 1 the status of Northern Ireland is addressed honestly, openly and factually by the two Governments, while at the same time accommodating the aspirations of both traditions to work through the democratic process for their longer-term goals. From the Unionist viewpoint their current status is secure unless and until a democratic majority of all the people of Northern Ireland decide to change it. From the Northern Nationalist point of view and ours the aspiration towards a united Ireland is accorded full recognition. From this point forward it will be very much up to the Nationalist tradition, North and South, to convince in time our Unionist fellow Irishmen that their destiny lies with us.

The United Kingdom has affirmed for the first time in a formal international agreement that it has no interest in remaining in Northern Ireland if and when a majority there freely decide to join a united Ireland. There is no longer any ambiguity, no longer the suspicion that Britain or NATO have wider strategic interests in Northern Ireland. That is all gone. The issue for Nationalists is clear and straightforward. We must work to unite all of the people of this island rather than all of the land. The land will follow. That is a long term goal but it is a goal which this agreement, far from diminishing, actually brings into sharper focus. It concentrates the mind on the job rather than on the dream.

Article 2 and the following Articles establish the Inter-governmental Conference and this is certainly an innovative and unique proposal. While the United Kingdom could not accept the full implications of joint authority as envisaged in the Forum report, the Inter-governmental Conference goes a long way to providing for the first time a really substantive role for the Irish Government in the affairs of Northern Ireland. That is a major breakthrough and is seen to be.

Article 2 (b) states that determined efforts shall be made through the Conference to resolve any differences. That positive form of words as well as the scope of the terms of reference of the Conference seem to add up to a very important and worthwhile structure. I would take issue with the previous speaker. It is more than a consultative role in reality, as I will demonstrate in a moment.

The agreement lays strong emphasis on encouraging the development of a devolved power-sharing Government in Northern Ireland and incentives to this end are contained in Articles 4 and 5. This must surely be the right direction — the encouragement of local democracy in Northern Ireland. If both traditions can in time be persuaded to work together in a devolved Government, tensions and frustrations must be eased, with a corresponding reduction in the level of violence, bloodshed and destruction.

Articles 7, 8 and 9 specifically provide for the Inter-governmental Conference to consider a number of the most sensitive issues in Northern Ireland, including security, prisons, the administration of justice, cross-Border co-operation and a range of other subjects. To find that we are now in a position where we can have a real input to questions affecting security, treatment of prisoners and the administration of justice, about which we are all concerned in relation to Northern Ireland courts and, of course the question of cross-Border co-operation in a whole range of topics, is an important march forward and I cannot understand why anyone would not see it as progress. It has to be to the benefit of the Nationalist community in Northern Ireland — and they see it already — to have a senior Irish Cabinet Minister and his advisers regularly articulating their fears, concerns and aspirations at this Inter-governmental Conference, the terms of reference of which include that "determined efforts shall be made at the Conference to resolve any differences".

While technically the Conference does not give the Irish ministerial representative any decision making role, it is obvious that if "determined efforts" are made to resolve differences it is incumbent on the system to produce results and that those efforts should be seen to succeed. Otherwise the Conference could not work and would quickly disintegrate and I do not believe that that is what the two Governments intend. I am convinced that both of them intend to ensure that it does work and is seen to work. However, it cannot work unless the process which I have just described produces results on the ground.

I choose my words carefully when I say that I am saddened that all constitutional Nationalists cannot unite behind this agreement. I respect their point of view but, nevertheless, I am saddened by it. The historic inability of Irish nationalism to present a united front is exposed once again and such disunity inevitably diminishes this noble initiative. That is why I regret it and I especially regret it because I recognise that the Leader of the Opposition established the framework from which this agreement was fashioned. Historians will surely record the irony of it all, with Mr. de Valera in his time building on a treaty espoused by his political opponents and, in our time, the Taoiseach building on a framework established by Deputy Haughey.

The future prospects for the agreement must concern us all. The Minister for Foreign Affairs said in Cork last Sunday that putting in on paper was the easiest part and we all know how hard it was to do that. The prospects for this agreement must surely rest on its acceptance or rejection by the two communities in Northern Ireland as well as on the determination of the two Governments to make it work. Nobody can yet say what level of acceptance the agreement will receive in Northern Ireland. One thing is certain, the extremists on both sides have a vested interest in its rejection and they may stop at nothing in pursuit of that objective. This agreement does not challenge any section of the Northern Ireland people except the men of violence on both sides. We must do everything in our power to demonstrate that by word and action this agreement threatens nobody but the gunmen, the terrorist and the sectarian murderer. Let us hope and pray that moderate people of both traditions can make common cause with the two Governments against the cult of violence and the underlying alienation on which violence feeds. The people of Northern Ireland have endured a long and agonising nightmare. This agreement provides a candle of hope in a dark tunnel of despair. It is a fragile light but it can light other candles and, in time, the darkness. It is a brave and valiant attempt by two democratic Governments to show that the political process can triumph over the bomb and bullet.

It is no exaggeration to state that democracy is on trial in this agreement and it cannot be allowed to fail. I am pleased to support this historic agreement enthusiastically and I congratulate all those who worked so hard to bring it about.

The Government motion before the House calls for support for the Anglo-Irish Agreement 1985, an agreement already signed by the Taoiseach, Deputy Garret FitzGerald. To vote for such a motion implies acceptance of each and every Article contained in that agreement.

There are parts of this agreement which could result in significant improvements for the minority community in the Six Counties and if one could be certain of their implementation, those parts of the agreement will certainly have my full support. There are 13 Articles in this agreement and though I would have serious reservations about the manner of their implementation and the eventual outcome, I still believe I could give qualified support to 12 of the Articles in the agreement

However, the motion calls for support for the full agreement and this includes Article 1, on the status of Northern Ireland. I cannot and will not accept this Article, which in my view, gives a veto to the Unionist against the eventual reunification of Ireland. I cannot accept that the majority in the partitioned area of our national territory should hold such a veto. A line of partition was carefully drawn by the then British Government in such a way as to ensure that the partitioned area would always have a strong majority of Unionist voters. This, then, is a British manufactured majority; an artificial majority and is not based on true democratic principles.

I am also of the opinion that the British Government are only interested in solving the violence problem in the Six Counties. I believe they entered into these negotiations with the Irish Government with the sole intention of achieving means to eliminate violence. Having failed over the past 15 years to put down the men of violence on their own, the British Government, out of frustration and in desperation, are now prepared to offer a limited role to the Southern Government in the administration of the Six Counties in the hope that such involvement will placate the minority Nationalist Catholic Republican community who hopefully will withdraw their tacit support for the men of violence.

I see in this agreement, therefore, another attempt by Britain to deal with the effects while making no move to eliminate the cause of these troubles which, of course, is Partition itself. Having witnessed the indifference of successive British Governments over the past 63 years, the Irish people are entitled to wonder about this latest agreement and where it will lead us. The road to Sunningdale was charted by Fianna Fáil, the road to Hillsborough was started by Fianna Fáil, the tragedy in both cases, maybe, has been that both of these agreements were entered into on behalf of the Irish people by a Coalition Government. Were the British Government willing to enter into an agreement with a Fianna Fáil Government, I have no doubt that the National aspiration for eventual unity would be more adequately safeguarded.

In the many meetings I have had with British Ministers and Members of Parliament, I have always found them more than willing, indeed anxious, to discuss the Six Counties problem. Their interest, however, has always centred on how to stop the violence, how to return the area to normality. Mention the aspiration of the majority on this island for unity and they just do not want to know. This has been the British blind spot over the years and they have always avoided any moves which would eventually result in unity. They have a difficulty, I believe, in understanding the in-built resentment of Irish people to the injustice done over the centuries which the Southern people see perpetuated in the deprivation of the Catholic minority community in the Six Counties since they were partitioned off from the rest of the country 63 years ago.

The real value, then, that I see in this agreement is that at least it addresses itself to the plight of the minority community, and if their social and economic conditions can be improved by the implementation of parts of this agreement then those parts can be welcomed. Those who signed the agreement are making elaborate claims that wonderful improvements will follow. I hope they are right. So far, their claims are based on their trust in British assurances and only time will show how Britain will act. Let us hope history will not repeat itself.

I have unbounded admiration for the members of the SDLP Party whose leader, John Hume, is in my view probably the outstanding political figure of the past decade. The courage and determination shown by Hume, Mallon, Rogers, Currie and others in the face of extreme provocation have been exemplary and I hope their decision to support this agreement in full will not affect their party's commitment to the establishment of a 32 county democratic State.

The SDLP decision in this matter reflects their priority to achieve immediate improvements in the quality of life for their people, something we, too, recognise as urgent and indeed essential. I believe, however, that SDLP supporters will recognise the dilemma facing Fianna Fáil and that they will understand why Fianna Fáil, representing the broad Nationalist view on the whole island, cannot endorse any diminution in the constitutional claim to sovereignty over the whole of the island. Acceptance by Fianna Fáil of Article 1 in the agreement would represent a reneging of all that our party have stood for since their foundation by Éamon de Valera.

As a Fianna Fáil Deputy I see great merit in many aspects of this agreement if they can be properly implemented, and I believe they should be given a chance to work. I know the vast majority of our supporters want to see the Conference succeed. We wish the Minister, Deputy Peter Barry, every success in this most difficult assignment. We congratulate the civil servants who have worked so diligently to establish the Conference. I would urge the Unionist communities to give their support to the working of this Conference and I would hope that they will not allow their response to be influenced by a small but vocal group among them who have already raised a protest.

Having said that I see some merit in parts of this agreement, I must now caution against the many pitfalls. It has been very difficult to get the British to act on the Six County problem. We painfully recall the stark "Out, out, out," response to the Forum report. What is now proposed falls far short of any of the Forum's proposals and let us be clear that what in fact is being proposed is an internal arrangement which in my view could only result in the re-establishment of a Six County devolved Government, that is, another Stormont, only this time the Nationalist minority might no longer be discriminated against. The Six Counties will remain under British rule and Britain will have achieved its objective of alienating the Nationalist community from the men of violence who we hope will cease their operations. Such a scenario will be a serious setback to achieving the unitary State, and though it could bring improved conditions for the minority, there is no guarantee that the violence will end.

In wanting the establishment of a unitary State, I recognise that progress towards that objective will be slow — it will not be successfully established by any overnight decision. The conversion of the minds and hearts of thousands of Unionists to acceptance of a unitary State will only result from a gradual process involving many nudges along the way from the British and sometimes from the Irish Government. I believe this agreement can prove to be an important nudge on the road to unity.

However, I believe that the ultimate goal of Irish unity could be lost were Fianna Fáil to agree today to this first Article in the agreement. Whatever else we in Fianna Fáil will agree to, we will never renege on our commitment to a united Ireland and we cannot therefore vote in favour of this agreement.

I am somewhat saddened by the approach adopted by the Opposition in this debate. Like previous speakers, I am sorry that all Nationalists south of the Border have not come out with one voice in the interests of Nationlists north of the Border on this agreement. I have just got a few minutes and in that time I should like to put a few questions to the Opposition because there is a responsibility on them to answer some questions for the benefit of the House and the country.

If the Opposition are to form a Government in the future, do they intend to repudiate the agreement? This must be clarified before the debate ends. What do Fianna Fáil propose to do if they form a Government? Do they intend to polarise the views of the Northern Unionists and Nationalists and, as a result of such polarisation, continue the murderous campaign that has gone on there for the past 15 years? Do the Opposition intend to leave children without fathers and sometimes mothers? Is that their wish? Do they intend to increase the terrible heartbreak that has extended throughout Northern Ireland in the past 15 years?

This is the time for questions to be answered clearly. Various arguments have been made against the agreement, particularly in relation to its constitutionality and Irish sovereignty. If the Opposition feel sincerely that this is unconstitutional do they intend to challenge the agreement in the High Court? There is an opportunity if they wish to take it up and I challenge them to do so if they feel so strongly about it. Something tells me that there is too much empty rhetoric coming from the Opposition. It is evident that they do not believe in what they have been saying but they feel there is an obligation on them to go on with the rhetoric that has been going on in Ireland for the past 60 years. In that time what have we achieved? We have achieved nothing.

This agreement is the first political move since 1921 to give some ray of hope to the Nationalist community in the North and I am heartened that all Nationalist opinion there welcomed the agreement. The Nationalists in the North appreciate the tremendous generosity, good will and good faith that have been extended to them by two Governments of two very different backgrounds. That culminated last Friday in an agreement signed by Mrs. Margaret Thatcher and the Taoiseach.

I take this opportunity to say to the Northern Unionists that they have nothing to fear from us Nationalists in the South, that the vast majority of the people in the South are anxious to see peace and harmony in Northern Ireland. This document is an instrument of peace and goodwill, an instrument that can be used for political progress. It is seen as a start, a formula that can be worked out.

When Mr. Eddie McAteer was Leader of the Nationalists, at a party in Stormont he said that if the Nationalists should ever come to power they would not deal with the Unionists in the same manner as the Unionists had dealt with them because the Nationalists had learned from their experience of injustice. Here in the South there is nothing but goodwill among the Nationalist population.

I ask the House, including the Opposition, before 5.15 this afternoon to answer questions that have not been answered before. This matter is much too serious. There are lives at stake and therefore there is an onus on all in this House to look at the agreement seriously and to take the positive step this afternoon of supporting the agreement.

Debate adjourned.
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