It is proposed to take items Nos. 19, 20 and 8. By agreement the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. today and not later than 12 midnight, and business shall be interrupted at 11.30 p.m. Also by agreement item No. 8 shall be taken not later than 8.30 p.m. today and the order shall not be resumed thereafter. Private Members' Business shall be No. 68.
Order of Business.
I want to ask the Taoiseach if he will make a statement to the House——
Just a moment, Deputy. Are the arrangements for the late sitting and for today's business, in so far as that agreement is necessary, agreed?
Yes, but I should like to ask the Taoiseach to look at the situation of some of these reports that are coming before us from committees. Quite frankly, it seems to some of us that the report on which the House is being asked to sit late tonight about credit cards for civil servants travelling is not exactly a major issue of policy requiring our time or the expenditure of this House sitting until a late hour. I do not wish to make any point about that but I think there is a case for looking at the reports of these committees and the manner in which they are being dealt with. There are complaints that the reports of some committees do not get in here at all and other committees seem to have a monopoly of our time.
It is a matter on which the House has taken a decision. Reports of this committee are required to be brought before the Dáil for discussion within 12 sitting days regardless of their content or what people may think of their content. That was the decision of the House. It is a matter for the members of these committees of all parties to decide what issues they wish to take up and have discussed in the House and we then have to provide time for their discussion. I note the Deputy's point but it is the House itself which has so ordered its business.
I might put it to the Taoiseach that whereas it is of great significance that civil servants should have credit cards to facilitate their travelling arrangements, there are perhaps other matters of greater importance and significance in the body politic at present. What I am suggesting to the Taoiseach is that the whole matter be looked at. A report of this kind — which I do not think is of any great moment — might have been taken in conjunction with some other business in the normal course of events. However, I might just ask — perhaps I should be addressing my point to the Minister of State——
No, the Deputy should be addressing his remarks through the Chair——
I just see a little jugger-mugger going on over there. I am not being tendentious about this matter. I am just suggesting that perhaps it would be more expeditious to the way in which we carry on our business that the manner in which we deal with these reports might be looked at.
I accept that the Deputy has a good point. We have been in touch with the chairman of the committee to discuss with him and he is considering the possibility of taking reports together here so that, if there are several reports dealing with matters, which individually may not seem of great importance, they could be taken together to have a more rational use of the House's time.
Would the Taoiseach make a statement to the House on the threat to the security of the State, the lives of prison officers, arising out of the serious deterioration——
The Deputy may not raise that in this manner.
A Cheann Comhairle, surely in relation to a matter that is of grave national concern at present——
There are different ways of raising it, or different ways of seeking to raise it.
I submit to you, Sir, that the matter I am endeavouring to raise at present is undoubtedly one of grave national concern: the security of the State is at risk, the lives of prison officers are being put at risk——
Deputy, please.
——and the security of the prison system is being totally undermined.
I get the impression that Deputy Hyland intends to go on with this. He did not make any application to the Chair on this, give the Chair any notice or seek to raise it in any other way.
I am simply asking a reasonable question.
The Chair is ruling——
Will the Taoiseach make a statement to the House in relation to the attempted outbreak in Portlaoise Prison on Sunday morning last?
If the Deputy wants to do that he should take it up with the Whips. I am ruling it out of order, as raised by the Deputy.
I accept your ruling but, on the other hand, many people will be disappointed that this Parliament will not discuss and will not be allowed to raise a matter of such importance as the security of our State——
Standing Orders make provision, provided the relevant Standing Order is complied with and provided the matter which the Deputy proposes to raise under the Standing Order is within the Standing Order. But the Chair must get notice of it.
A Cheann Comhairle, I accept your ruling.
Deputy Wilson.
I put down a Private Notice Question with regard to the B & I about the sudden strike that was declared today, the steps the Minister is taking to save the State substantial losses and asking him to make a full statement on the dispute. My Private Notice Question was refused——
It was ruled out of order, which is a different thing.
The fact is that £43 million is being sought from this House for the B & I. It is a very strange thing that this can be irrelevant even though the House is responsible for all this money.
If the Deputies would exert half as much energy in getting Standing Orders with which they do not agree changed it would be much more effective and much easier on the Chair's blood pressure.
I hope that you, a Cheann Comhairle, as Chairman of the relevant committee will——
No, the Deputy's party is heavily represented and I might say very well represented on that committee.
——favour a proposal that, when we pay £116 million or whatever it is to CIE, we can really put down questions about the activities of CIE in this House, the same for B & I, Irish Shipping Limited and the other semi-State bodies.
On the same issue — as you know you ruled out my Private Notice Question on the employment aspect of it — while I am on the committee to which you referred, you gave advice to my colleague, Deputy Hyland, that he should try to raise it in an official way. I attempted to do that.
I saw that Deputies Wilson and Ahern were all ears. I went to great pains to tell Deputy Hyland that if it was within the Standing Order, then he could raise it.
We will try to follow that advice. I accept Standing Orders but when a major issue arises which affects more than 500 jobs——
The Deputy should explore another avenue.
The Taoiseach and the relevant Minister are here. Am I wasting my time because of 40-year old Standing Orders?
The Standing Order in question has not been in force for 40 years but it has been in existence for a long time. Deputy Ahern knows perfectly well that there is another avenue open to him and if he wants to explore it I will consider any application which he wishes to make.
Dún Laoghaire): A nod is as good as a wink.
The board meeting starts in half an hour. I should like to raise this matter tomorrow on the Adjournment but we will be discussing a silly old report, that means nothing, until midnight. The matter to which I refer concerns the loss of more than 500 jobs with another 325 jobs indirectly affected.
I know that Deputy Ahern has to get this off his chest and I will communicate with him.
Unlike these other unruly Deputies, I am sure you will agree that I am generally in order. In regard to the Status of Children Bill which was published in draft form earlier in the year and for which submissions were requested, could the Taoiseach tell us when it is intended to bring it before the Dáil?
The submissions made with regard to the Bill are being studied at present and redrafting of certain points of the Bill is in progress. I hope to introduce the Bill in this session.
Has the Taoiseach resolved the difficulties with the Labour Party regarding the Local Radio Bill and when will it be brought before the House?
The Bill is before the House and will be discussed before long.
Will the Bill be passed before the Christmas recess?
That is a matter for the House; our job is to introduce it.
When is it hoped to resume the debate on the Children (Care and Protection) Bill and when is it hoped to have a Bill relating to adoption before the House?
The Bill in relation to adoption will be introduced during the next session. The Children Bill is a matter for the Whips to decide.
I want to thank you for your courtesy in allowing me to raise a matter on the Adjournment last Thursday. Unfortunately, the restriction on time prevented me from availing of it. I realise that there will be a very late session tonight and, therefore, it would be unfair to the staff if I were to ask for a question on the Adjournment. Could I have, at the earliest possible opportunity, permission to raise on the Adjournment the difficulties being experienced by the Carrigaline Television Project for sometime now——
Unfortunately the Deputy will have to raise it with me on the day on which he would like to get permission to do so.
I would do so today but I am conscious of the fact that we are sitting very late.
Well, do it some other day.
I am sure it must occur to you, as it does to other Deputies, that in regard to these two very important matters of keen public interest and fundamental importance — I am not going to mention them because you might think that I was trying to make a point — it is a pity that they cannot be raised either by way of Private Notice Question or on the Order of Business. I know you will say this is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
It is a matter for the House.
With regard to Private Notice Questions particularly, surely it is a matter of your interpretation of the provision in the Standing Order? The Standing Order is not all that tightly framed and it could make this House more effective and relevant if matters of this sort could be raised as Deputies seek to raise them. Alternatively — I think I have put this to you on a number of occasions — you might take the initiative in seeking to introduce procedures which would enable us to deal with these matters as they arise, matters of urgent public importance. After all, you have your own particular responsibility for the affairs of this House and for its dignity and relevance. We look increasingly silly in the eyes of the public if we cannot raise matters of importance, relevance and urgency.
The Chair does not wish to comment on the merit of Deputy Haughey's remarks but any change in the procedure is a matter ultimately for the House. I am satisfied beyond doubt that if the Chair were to indulge in what I would describe as a flexi-interpretation of Standing Orders, the Chair would find itself in an absolutely impossible position. I remember one occasion — I will not go into details — when an application was made to me and I thought it would be harmless to allow it irrespective of the Standing Order but I had no sooner allowed it than I was told that it constituted a precedent.
That gives the House an example of the position in which the Chair finds itself. The Chair has a difficult enough position, he is not complaining about it as he is very glad to be able to do his best to carry out his functions. However, I am satisfied that if the Chair were to depart from a strict interpretation of Standing Orders and precedent he could not enforce order.
I do not doubt your good faith in this matter but I believe that there is scope in interpretation. I cannot think of anything which is of more public importance than the matters raised by Deputies Wilson and Ahern. In deference to your wishes I will not mention the incident. Those matters should come within a reasonable interpretation of the provision within the Private Notice Question ambit. I should also like to suggest to the Government, through you, that in incidents of this kind in which there is great public interest the ministerial statement procedure should be more readily availed of. After all, it is ridiculous that when we meet after these incidents referred to by Deputy Hyland we cannot say anything about them and that Ministers cannot offer any explanation.
Limerick East): Why did Deputy Hyland not put down a question?
Because it would have been ruled out of order.
(Limerick East): He should put down a question.
These questions are ruled out of order. Will the Minister make a statement in the House?
We cannot have this shouting across the House.
The Minister for Justice knows perfectly well that a Private Notice Question by us on the Portlaoise break-out would have been ruled out of order.
(Limerick East): Why did the Deputy not put down a question?
I did not bring this up. The Minister has made this tendentious intervention.
(Interruptions.)
If he did his job as Minister for Justice there would have been no break-out in Portlaoise.
There was no break-out.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please. A short time after I took this Chair I read out what was in order on the Order of Business and in doing so I followed strictly one of my predecessors who went to the trouble of putting the same thing on the record. Certainly the matter raised by Deputy Hyland today was not in order in the manner in which it was raised. There are other ways in which he could have sought to raise it. If an application had been made under either of those Standing Orders the Chair would have considered the matter on its merits.
On the Order of Business, I wish to ask the Taoiseach if it is his intention to bring before the House legislation in relation to the appointment of sheriffs? It is a relevant question since it was incorporated in the Taoiseach's speech two weeks ago.
I will allow that question.
In so far as the matter requires legislation it will certainly come to this House.
Can the Taoiseach give an indication as to how soon the legislation will be brought before the House? It is a matter of great national importance because it is a complete departure from a system which has operated over a long period. We are entitled to know when the Taoiseach proposes to bring this legislation before the House.
There are separate issues here. One is the appointment of sheriffs and the other relates to their powers. It does not necessarily follow that legislation is required in both cases. If legislation is required in relation to the matter it will be brought before the House as soon as possible.
Is the Taoiseach saying that a sheriff will be appointed without Members of this House having had an opportunity to debate it?
Deputy Hyland, I will not allow a debate on this matter.
I am being as reasonable as I can. I have always respected the Chair, as the Chair knows.
With very rare exceptions. The Deputy is one of the most orderly Deputies in the House, except when he chooses not to be orderly. Item No. 19.
Since the Minister for Communications is not here, I would ask the Taoiseach to comment on the discrimination against the residents of Kilmacthomas in County Waterford by the seizure of the community television equipment.
That does not arise on the Order of Business.
I believe all our citizens should be cherished equally. Unfortunately that is not so. Will amending legislation be introduced?
I have ruled it out of order.
I should like to raise on the Adjournment the joint report of the NBST and the IDA on bio-technology in Ireland.
I should like to raise on the Adjournment the matter I have mentioned.
I will communicate with both Deputies.