Dún Laoghaire): I understand that, by agreement, the Minister for Communications, Deputy Mitchell, will resume on the Second Stage of the Dublin Transport Authority Bill.
Dublin Transport Authority Bill, 1985: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
By agreement, the Minister for Communications will resume the concluding speech on the Second Stage of the Bill. Is that agreed?
Is there anything in Standing Orders to prevent the Minister for Communications from concluding?
It needs the agreement of the House.
I want to hear what the Minister has to say.
I wish to apologise for my inability to be present yesterday as I was in Brussels on Departmental business. The Minister for Defence had already started to reply to the debate and I do not propose to go over the points with which he has already dealt. I propose to take up the remaining points which have not yet been answered and to make general concluding remarks.
I wish to refer to the question raised by Deputy Wilson in relation to the provision of car parks by the DTA. He suggested that the DTA should provide these car parks or license charities to do so in order to have a native car park provider. It would be surprising if private enterpreneurs did not explore any possibilities there are in this regard. It is not envisaged that the DTA would incur capital expenditure on providing car parks, etc. It is questionable whether the Exchequer should be involved in such provision as it would have to be if the DTA had to rely on it for funds.
Deputy Richard Bruton suggested that the Bill should be amended to require the sanction of the DTA before major expenditure on roads, rail, etc. gets the go ahead. That is not necessary as it will be for the Government to decide, in the context of the national plan, the public capital programme, etc., on the total resources to be made available for such expenditure and on the specific major expenditure having regard to the expert advice tendered to Government by the DTA under section 21 of the Bill about priority in public expenditure in these matters.
Several Deputies commented on arrangements for future Dublin transport funding. The Government saw no reason for channelling Exchequer moneys via the DTA to CIE and local authorities instead of the present arrangement. The Government will continue to decide on the quantum and content of transport infrastructure expenditure in order to secure the best value for money and will decide both issues in the light of the recommendations of the DTA, etc.
Deputy Bruton also criticised the lack of close involvement of CIE in the planning process under the planning Acts. He felt that the Bill did not remedy the situation for Dublin. The DTA will have a major input in the planning process, as sections 24 and 25 provide, in relation to transport aspects and traffic management. The DTA will have an expert overview of transport and traffic needs for the Dublin area and will, no doubt, press their case with vigour in the appropriate quarters. The DTA will have the clear statutory power to do so, a vital power which CIE and the non-statutory Dublin Transportation Task Force lack.
A number of Deputies commented on the provision in the Bill for local authority representation on the board of the Dublin Transport Authority. Some asked about the qualifications of the local authority representatives for membership of the DTA Board. The Government decided to have four local authority members on the board of the Authority to link up with the Dublin local government system. As I explained in my opening speech on 12 June, all the members of the Authority will be required to have appropriate experience and expertise in transport or other relevant matters. Paragraph (3) of Article 2 of the Schedule to the Bill requires that.
The four local authority representatives to be nominated by the local authorities will have to have appropriate experience and expertise in transport or other relevant matters and the nominating authorities will have to bear that in mind when making their nominations. The board will have a maximum of 12 members and the members will be appointed by the Minister for Communications under the Bill when enacted. Pending the establishment of the new administrative counties of Dublin-Belgard and Dublin-Fingal, Dublin County Council will be asked in due course to nominate two suitable members representing the new administrative areas. Dublin Corporation and the new administrative county of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown will each have one member on the DTA Board and they will be asked to nominate one suitable member in due course.
Deputy Wilson asked if the Minister for Communications had indicated to CIE financial or other limits on how the transport needs of Tallaght might be met. There is no question of applying financial or other preconditions to consideration of the transport needs of Tallaght and other development areas west of Dublin city. Joint consideration between CIE and the Department of Communications at official level has not produced a satisfactory answer and the matter of transport provision for Tallaght and other developing areas is at present being re-examined within CIE. As indicated by me in my opening speech on Second Stage, the Dublin Transport Authority will be required to give priority consideration to the question of what public transport services are to be provided for Tallaght, Clondalkin and other developing areas to the west of Dublin city and whether such services should be provided by rail, road or busway.
Deputy Wilson asked whether his draft Bill would only have required Government involvement in relation to the proposed statutory Dublin Transport Plan in so far as there was need to settle any disputes arising between the Dublin Transport Authority and local authorities. It is clear that, irrespective of his intentions, Deputy Wilson's 1982 legislative proposals would have required considerable Government involvement in the settlement of the statutory Dublin Transport Plan. His proposals specifically required Government approval of the draft plan prepared by the Dublin Transport Authority before it could bind local authorities and enabled the Government to make such modifications as they saw fit to the draft plan when giving their approval in the light of the report of the public inquiry which had to be held in relation to the draft plan and of the recommendations of the Ministers concerned in the matter. Furthermore, the Deputy's proposals provided that, when the plan had been approved by the Government, the local authorities would have been obliged to bring their development plans under the Local Government (Planning and Development) Acts into conformity with the Dublin Transport Plan. The whole process would obviously have required considerable Government action.
Deputy Kelly and others stressed the need to improve the quality of life of Dublin as our capital city and I fully endorse this plea. One of the essential objectives of a good transport and traffic management policy for Dublin is to allow the business, social and cultural life of the city to be restored and animated. That objective underlies the Bill. Deputies Kelly, De Rossa, Flaherty and Taylor commented on section 29 of the Bill. This is an enabling provision for the Authority to license others beside CIE to provide bus services. The Minister for Communications has that power at present. Obviously the Authority would have to consider carefully the exercise of such power to ensure that adequate passenger road services would continue to be provided throughout the Dublin area. Section 29 (2) requires the Authority to do so. That is what the phrase "have regard to the public interest regarding the provision of passenger road services..." means. It would be outside a bus service licensing system to attempt to prescribe conditions of pay or work for employees of operators as Deputy De Rossa suggested. Normal bargaining — apart from general worker legislation — is there to deal with that.
Deputies Kelly and Doyle spoke about the functional area of the Authority. The Authority's functional area is basically the area within the County Dublin boundary, as per section 10 (1). Of course much of the traffic in Dublin begins outside the county, for example, in Counties Kildare, Meath and Wicklow. Section 10 (2) allows for extension by ministerial order of the functional area of the Authority as needs arise.
Deputy J. Doyle and Deputy Briscoe commented on poor enforcement of parking controls in the Dublin area. It is accepted that the present position is unsatisfactory and that special concerted efforts are required to remedy the situation. As I said when opening the debate, while the Garda will continue to be responsible for traffic law enforcement, the traffic wardens have a major function in enforcing parking controls.
The proposed transfer of the traffic wardens to the DTA is designed to give their work a more effective and professional basis as well as providing scope for career advancement which is lacking at present. The non-statutory Dublin Transportation Task Force — comprising representatives of the Garda, local authorities and the Departments concerned — continues to work for improvements in the enforcement of traffic and parking controls and with some success. Greater effort by all concerned is, of course, required as the Deputies have suggested.
Deputy Briscoe suggested that the question of wheelclamping illegally parked vehicles should be examined. This would involve putting a device on the wheel of the vehicle to stop it from being moved and the device would only be removed after a fee had been paid and the device unlocked by a garda or other authorised officer. As there is no statutory provision for this at present, the question of making such provision is being actively pursued in the Departments concerned. If an appropriate provision can be devised for this Bill the intention would be to have it considered on Committee Stage.
As Deputies will appreciate, wheelclamping on the spot would not be appropriate in all cases of illegal parking, particularly where the illegally parked vehicle was a danger or obstruction to traffic or pedestrians. Removal of the illegally parked vehicle would be appropriate in such circumstances. As the law stands, illegally parked vehicles may be removed by the gardaí to special compounds and kept there until such time as the release fee is paid. Greater use of these powers would obviously increase their deterrent effects and reduce illegal parking. Section 34 of the Bill transfers to the Dublin Transport Authority the by-law making power of the Minister for the Environment for these matters in so far as the Authority's functional area is concerned.
Local authorities have specific powers under the Litter Act, 1982, to deal with the removal, storage and disposal of abandoned vehicles wherever they may be. Greater use of these powers would also benefit traffic management and Deputies who are members of local authorities should pursue this with their respective local authorities.
I have endeavoured to answer the individual points raised by Deputies in the debate. I thank them for their contributions which I much appreciate. As I said, legislation on the Dublin Transport Authority has been on the stocks for some time. The Bill which was in draft form when I came to office was cumbersome and top heavy and probably would not have effected any material improvement in Dublin's traffic. Nevertheless the plan was a good one, and what we are seeking to do here is to meet all the aspirations in the Bill prepared by Deputy Wilson, but at the same time to remove the huge bureaucracy element in it which would triplicate staffing. We have tried to make this a lean State animal which will help the Dublin transport problem without costing the taxpayer a fortune. I will look for the remaining Stages here and in the other House quickly so that we will be able to set about resolving the traffic chaos that has beset Dublin for so long.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 68; Níl 54.
Tá
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barnes, Monica.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Myra.
- Barry, Peter.
- Begley, Michael.
- Bell, Michael.
- Bermingham, Joe.
- Birmingham, George Martin.
- Boland, John.
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Carey, Donal.
- Cluskey, Frank.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Coogan, Fintan.
- Cooney, Patrick Mark.
- Cosgrave, Liam T.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Creed, Donal.
- Crowley, Frank.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Desmond, Barry.
- Desmond, Eileen.
- Donnellan, John.
- Dowling, Dick.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Glenn, Alice.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Hegarty, Paddy.
- Hussey, Gemma.
- Keating, Michael.
- Kelly, John.
- Kenny, Enda.
- L'Estrange, Gerry.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McLoughlin, Frank.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Naughten, Liam.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East)
- O'Brien, Willie.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- O'Toole, Paddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Prendergast, Frank.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Ryan, John.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
- Skelly, Liam.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Níl
- Ahern, Michael.
- Andrews, David.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Paudge.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Browne, John.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Byrne, Seán.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Conaghan, Hugh.
- Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Foley, Denis.
- Gallagher, Denis.
- Gallagher, Pat Cope.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leonard, Tom.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- McCarthy, Seán.
- McCartin, Joe.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West)
- O'Dea, William.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Edmond.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- Ormonde, Donal.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- Power, Paddy.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Walsh, Seán.
- Wilson, John P.
- Wyse, Pearse.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Barrett (Dublin North-West).
Question declared carried.
When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?
On Tuesday next, subject to agreement between the Whips.
I will be tabling very substantial amendments to the Bill but subject to agreement between the Whips I am agreeing to the Committee Stage being ordered for Tuesday next.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 3 December 1985.