asked the Minister for Justice the action being taken to ensure compliance with the provisions of the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1956.
62.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Gaming and Lotteries Act
3.
asked the Minister for Justice in view of the statements of a District Justice (details supplied) if he considers that the Gaming and Lotteries Act should be amended; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
63.
asked the Minister for Justice if, in view of the recent Supreme Court decision regarding the maximum pay-out allowed by slot machine operators and taking into account the deep concern felt by the public at large at the indiscriminate spread of these machines over which local authorities appear to have no real control, he will refuse any requests he may receive from slot machine owners for an increase in the amounts allowed to be paid out; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
(Limerick East): I propose to take Question No. 3 and Questions Nos. 62 and 63 which are for written reply together.
Ensuring compliance with the provisions of the Gaming and Lotteries Acts, 1956 to 1979 is a matter for the Garda Síochána. Statistics supplied to me by the Garda show that the number of breaches of the Acts detected in 1983 was 239 and in 1984 it was 816. The figure in 1985 up to the end of August was 441. In the enforcement of the law under the Acts in recent years the Garda have had to take cognisance of court cases in relation to gaming machines.
The Supreme Court delivered a judgment on 19 November 1985 upholding the constitutionality of section 14 of the 1956 Act which sets out the stake and prize limits for gaming machines. Following that decision the position in relation to gaming machines is under consideration by the Garda.
As I stated in reply to a question on 23 October recorded in the 1985 Official Report Volume 361, Column 45, the Government, as announced on 17 October 1985 have decided that proposals to amend the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1956 should be prepared. Before I put any specific proposals to Government I will give very careful consideration to the arguments for and against each proposal. I will, accordingly, consider any representations made to me or views expressed concerning any proposed amendment of the Act.
As the Minister has stated in his reply, the Supreme Court decision has been given since the question was tabled. What is the position now in regard to those who hold a licence under the Act but who are deemed to be in contravention because these machines are designed to pay out an amount which has been deemed to be in contravention of the Act? Is the Minister aware that many of these premises have closed down since the Supreme Court decision, that 4,700 people are employed in these licensed premises and that the Exchequer benefits from them to the extent of £35 million by way of VAT and machine tax revenue? In view of the fact that such a large amount of money is accruing to the State and so many people are employed in this industry, will the Minister give a clear statement as to what the proprietors of these premises are to do now to comply with the law? As he will be aware, many of them have closed, not wishing to be in contravention of the law. My purpose in putting down the question originally was to ensure that the law was complied with. As is clear from the Minister's reply, a very large number of prosecutions have been brought, so obviously the law was not being complied with and the Minister is aware of the anomalies that exist.
That is a very long question.
Yes, but I think it is important that a clear statement be given here.
(Limerick East): I was not aware that premises had closed down but if the Deputy says that I accept what he says. The Garda are now examining the situation in the light of the Supreme Court decision. The Government have already made a decision that in preparing the legislation for the National Lottery the Gaming and Lotteries Act will have to be amended. There is a decision, therefore, to amend that Act already. I am telling the House that I am prepared to look at proposals to amend other sections of the Gaming and Lotteries Act, including the one which would raise the stakes and raise the prize money for gaming machines. However, I am not in a position to give a categoric statement on the exact legal position at present. It is being examined in the light of the Supreme Court decision. Prima facie it would seem to me that people operating with higher stakes or higher prize money than allowed in the 1956 Act are outside the law and that it would need an amendment to bring them back in if the practice of gaming machines and so on is to continue as it has done.
I am sure the Minister will accept that several of them have closed down. This has put employment in jeopardy. The House is anxious that the law be updated in a reasonable way. Will the Minister give the House an assurance that prosecutions will not be undertaken until the new Bill is published in the Dáil? Will he give an assurance that that Bill will be brought forward as quickly as possible?
(Limerick East): No, I cannot give any assurance that prosecutions will not be taken. That is a matter for the Garda Síochána. If people are in breach of the law it is a matter for the Garda to enforce the law. I will give no such assurance to the House. On the other hand, the Government have already announced that it is their intention to set up a National Lottery as quickly as possible. It is a matter of priority with the Government that the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1956, be amended. I am telling the House that I am prepared to consider further amendments to that Act, including the precise one the Deputy has in mind. I am open to submissions from people in the industry or any Deputy or Senator, including Deputy Molloy, on the precise changes required.
Will the Minister be prepared, following consultation with the various parties, to refer a matter of this type to a committee of the House to try to reach agreement on some reasonable amendment to the law?
(Limerick East): I will consider that, but my experience with committees on matters of urgency is that they tend to slow things down rather than speed them up. There is great urgency about this and the amendment could be fairly simple.
Will the Minister indicate if there has been any shortfall in revenue to the Exchequer as a result of the recent decision of the Supreme Court? Will the Minister bear in mind that 650 people are employed in that industry in County Donegal?
(Limerick East): A question about shortfall in revenue would be more appropriate for the Minister for Finance.
Is the Minister giving an undertaking that a Bill of this type is an urgent one at this time?
(Limerick East): No, I am giving an undertaking that, in the context of the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1956, being amended, I will examine further amendments that are not required in the setting up of a National Lottery. I am saying that I will pay particular attention to the view of the Deputies on the amendment being mooted.
Will the Minister agree to meet a deputation representing a large section of the proprietors of such premises today? Those people are in the House at present.
(Limerick East): No, because I would need more notice than that to meet a deputation. I have already arranged with a Deputy to meet interested TD's next Wednesday from one constituency and if other Members want to be associated with that delegation of Members of the House they are very welcome to come along.
Will the Minister convey the information about the time and date of the meeting to me?
(Limerick East): Yes.