Deputy O'Rourke has applied for and has been given permission to raise on the Adjournment of the House the closure of the Carysfort Training College. She has eight minutes and the Minister has four minutes.
Adjournment Debate. - Closure of Carysfort Training College.
I propose to give two minutes of my time to Deputy David Andrews. I want to thank the Ceann Comhairle for giving us permission to raise this matter on the Adjournment. Of necessity we must be very brief. On Tuesday last we received the shock news that Carysfort College was to close. This evoked a huge response throughout the country, not alone in educational circles but in general, because Carysfort had become a symbol of the tradition of education here.
I take issue with the Minister on two matters, first the manner in which she chose to announce the news to Carysfort College by a letter to the manager of the college. I should have thought that the 110 years of tradition which that college represented in education would have warranted a personal visit from her to the principal of that college, Sister Regina Durkan, a woman of considerable intellectual attainment and ability. She represented, in turn, all those who had been principals of that college since its inception in 1877. A sensitive meeting would have been warranted during which the situation could have been outlined and perhaps out of that remedies could have been sought. Instead an official—albeit a worthy person—was sent with the letter. The Minister failed in her obligation in not meeting such a prestigious person in education circles.
Secondly, it is an economic, educational and social folly to think of closing such a fine educational institution. Just over two years ago the Government made a very great infrastructural investment into that college to the tune, I understand, of up to £3 million in sports equipment, lecture halls, gymnasia and general upgrading of the entire establishment. To throw that investment away and put a finish to Carysfort College would be an economic, social and political folly. The board of management of the college, concurrent with the expansion of their facilities, two years ago made a recommendation to the Government on how they would see their college coping with a change in education services but to date, apart from an acknowledgment, that comprehensive and sensible brief has not been responded to by the Government. Sister Regina, and her staff, strike me, and many people, as being eminently sensible about what they wish to do with their college.
I suggest that the Minister consider permitting a component of Carysfort College to remain as a teacher training establishment carrying on a tradition. I suggest that the remainder of the college be utilised as a further third level institution bearing in mind that Carysfort is a recognised college of NUI. Thus, it will be fulfilling its functions. There is a pressing need for third level facilities at present and the Minister has recognised in the House, and outside, that there are not enough facilities to cope with the number of young students seeking third level education. Why waste such a valuable educational resource that Carysfort represents? Why not have within its portals an element of teacher training and a level of third level education for the young people? In that way the tradition of education carried on through more difficult times than we have now with such fine distinction by the Sisters of Mercy could be continued. I understand that the board and staff of Carysfort put forward a similar idea to the Government two years ago.
It may be strange to engage in consultations when a decision has been made, but it is my view that the Minister, and the Government, owe it to Carysfort to enter into meaningful discussions. The Minister should put aside the decision that has been made. I am glad all sides of the House have recognised that that decision was clumsy and crude in the extreme and that the insensitivity displayed by the Minister in abrogating her duties was unfortunate. It bears out what we have been saying for some time. I do not wish to sound pompous but somehow the Coalition in their handling of education do not measure up to what should be the approach of a Government to such an important issue.
The Carysfort issue has touched a huge reservoir of feeling among the people. In villages and towns throughout the country one will come across men and women who have been educated at Carysfort. The suggestion I have put forward allows for a continuation of teacher training at Carysfort and an expansion into the third level system. The Minister should give that suggestion some consideration. I ask the Minister to reverse her insensitive and clumsy decision in regard to Carysfort.
I should like to support what our Front Bench spokesperson, Deputy O'Rourke, has said. I am closest to the problem in that the good Sisters of Mercy are my neighbours in Blackrock. I have lived in the area for 20 years and I am aware of the tremendous contribution the Sisters of Mercy have made to education. I am aware of the history of the order over the past 110 years and of their exemplary contribution to education throughout the nation. This is probably one of the greatest acts of vandalism in education and democracy it has been my experience to witness in my 21 years as a Member of the House.
The sensitivity of a rhinoceros.
The pathetic time allowance — this does not have anything to do with the Chair — for this debate will not end this matter. I will continue to press for Government time to keep this problem before the House until it is resolved. The only conclusion that can be reached is the continuation of Carysfort Training College. The traditions of the college, the teachers, the suggestion put forward by Deputy O'Rourke, the fact that there was a scheme put forward by the college authorities two years ago to the Minister that it should be opened up to a third level stream, the lack of courtesy on the part of the Minister in not responding to this reasonable suggestion which was a recognition of the problem, are matters that should be taken into consideration. However, the nastiest feature of the whole matter is the unfortunate method by which the Archbishop of Dublin in the first instance was made the messenger boy for the bad news to the teaching authorities at Carysfort. It was unfortunate the way he was treated and the way the message was conveyed. I must protest in the strongest fashion about the closing of this college. This is not the end of the matter; it is but the beginning.
I welcome the opportunity for this brief discussion on this topic. I am sure Deputies are aware that there has been a serious decline in the birth rate in Ireland in recent years and that the numbers in all the teacher training colleges have been falling drastically. This is something that every college of education is aware of. Indeed, we were all very concerned about it. It therefore led to the inevitable decision that we were going to have to look at the rationalisation of teacher training education as has been done in every other country where there has been a demographic phenomenon.
In considering the closure of one of the colleges the choice was extremely difficult because all the colleges do excellent work. I have on previous occasions, and I do so now, conveyed my admiration of their work to the Sisters of Mercy in no uncertain terms and, indeed, to the Archbishop.
More hypocrisy.
I am astonished to hear the Archbishop of Dublin being referred to as a messenger boy.
As the messenger boy from the Minister.
Protocol demanded that as the Archbishop was the patron of the college the information should be conveyed to him in the first instance.
The Minister did not have the guts to convey the message herself. It was grossly unfair to ask him to do it.
It would have been quite extraordinary if any other course of action had been adopted. I was anxious to and did speak to Sister Regina at some length on the day of the announcement. I should like to make it clear that I reject any allegation of discourtesy. The announcement was made with extreme courtesy to the Archbishop and Sister Regina and I am sorry that a Deputy chose to raise the matter in the House before the official announcement was made and without any regard to the sensitivities of the people in question.
Please forgive us.
That represented political opportunism and insensitivity of an extreme nature and I am sorry the Deputy engaged in that type of political manoeuvring.
What about democracy?
In all fairness a Minister has been brought into the House and she should be allowed to make her statement without interruption.
Even if it is only rubbish.
On the question of the future of the college the decision has been made with great regret that the college must close as a college of education. I made it quite clear when we discussed this with the Archbishop and Sister Regina that we wish to have discussions with them as to how this practical decision and practical arrangement will be implemented. Of course we will be entering discussions on any other possible use of the facilities in the college.
I should like to point out that the capital investment in the college was made considerably before there was this dramatic downturn in the birth rate in the country and those facilities were provided at a time when the demographic features were ascending rather than descending.
They may ascend again. One can never tell.
I should like to assure the staff, and students, that discussions will be entered into—they have already been invited to those discussions—about their future and the safeguarding of the future of those student teachers. That, of course, is an essential feature of our decision and it has been made clear to them. I wish Deputies opposite would stop crying crocodile tears——
Old Mother Hubbard is at it again.
——and would understand that at a time of social change difficult decisions have to be made, decisions they have always avoided making and, presumably, will avoid making in the future. I should like to assure Sister Regina, her staff and the students that we intend to enter into the fullest possible discussions with them to decide where the future lies for all aspects of the college. We will be delighted to do so and intend to do so directly.
The Dail adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 11 February 1986.