Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Mar 1986

Vol. 364 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 18, 6, 19, 20 and 21. Private Members' Business shall be No. 43. By agreement, the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. today and not later than 11 p.m. and business shall be interrupted at 10.30 p.m.

Also by agreement, the proceedings on the Committee Stage of No. 18 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 1.30 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down by the Minister for Justice.

Also by agreement, the proceedings on No. 6 and the Committee Stage of No. 19 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 7 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments include only amendments set down by the Minister for Communications.

Also by agreement, No. 21 shall be taken at the conclusion of No. 43.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for the taking of item No. 18 agreed?

Dr. Woods

Is it proposed to deal with the Committee Stage of No. 18 only?

An Ceann Comhairle

Committee Stage only. Is the proposal in regard to No. 18 agreed? Agreed. Are the arrangments for dealing with Nos. 6 and 19 agreed?

Mr. Wilson

I understand that that relates to Committee Stage only?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes. Are the arrangments agreed? Agreed.

In so far as agreement is necessary for No. 21, which I do not think it is, I take it that the arrangement in regard to that is agreed.

Mr. Lenihan

I have a question on the Order of Business which will be very brief. Will the Taoiseach inform the House, in view of the serious situation that has arisen in regard to the total breakdown of law and order in Northern Ireland and the gross breaches of security that have taken place, of the role of the Inter-Governmental Conference in this whole area? When is it proposed to have a meeting of the Conference to deal, as a matter of urgency, with this very serious on-going problem?

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not know whether the Deputy was present yesterday when we had this for quite a while but I must point out to him that it does not arise in this way. I am sorry.

Mr. Lenihan

The only point I should like to make is that we have here the only democratic assembly on this island in the form of Dáil Éireann and this is surely the place where matters of this kind should be debated. Yesterday the Ceann Comhairle refused to allow our party leader to pursue the matter and yet the Taoiseach proceeded to make a statement outside the House which got widespread publicity. Indeed, it was an innocuous anodyne statement but it was made outside the House rather than in here in the Irish people's democratic assembly.

An Ceann Comhairle

I went to considerable trouble yesterday to explain — I thought I had explained — that this matter does not arise in this way. It is not in order on the Order of Business. We do not have a procedure here for an impromptu Taoiseach's question time. It does not fall within Standing Orders and I am not going to allow it.

Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. P. Barry)

Especially when they were too lazy to put down questions last Thursday and Friday which could be answered today.

Mr. Lenihan

This is a serious matter.

Mr. P. Barry

Why is it that the Opposition did not put down questions last week?

Mr. Reynolds

When was the strike? It took place on Monday.

Mr. Lenihan

The Minister has done grave disrespect to his position.

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter does not arise on the Order of Business and the Deputy should take that from the Chair.

Mr. P. Barry

Did the Deputy read the newspapers last week? The Deputy should have some sense.

Mr. Lenihan

I am asking the Taoiseach to make a serious comment in the House about his perception of the role of the Inter-Governmental Conference which was regarded by the Government during the debate on the Hillsborough Agreement as a central element of that treaty.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am ruling that question out of order. I am not having any more nonsense on this. This is not in order now and that is that.

Mr. Lenihan

I am entitled to be told what this Conference proposes to do about the breakdown in society in Northern Ireland and the initiation of pragmatic security enforcement on the ground.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Lenihan should resume his seat. There is no respect, good, bad or indifferent, for the Chair. The Chair is acting under Standing Orders.

Mr. Lenihan

The Government are a disgrace on this matter.

Tomás Mac Giolla

I wish to protest about the sporadic manner in which the Order of Business arrives at our office. We did not receive it today and this happens quite frequently.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is not responsible for the circulation of the Order of Business but I am sure the Deputy's remarks will be noted.

Tomás Mac Giolla

I am requesting the people responsible to do something about this. Is it the Taoiseach's intention to make a statement to the House expressing the opinion of the country regarding the death of the Swedish Prime Minister?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sure that that can be done by putting the question to the Whips. I have just ruled out of order a question by Deputy Lenihan and I regret to say that Deputy Mac Giolla's question falls into the same category. If the Chair were to allow serious and interesting matters to be raised on the Order of Business we would not get to the Order of Business until midday.

Tomás Mac Giolla

We have no idea as to what happens between the Whips as we are not consulted. Therefore, we can only speak through you to the people responsible. This is the only way we have of raising these issues.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

Get a few more seats.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Could the Taoiseach indicate when the Government propose to circulate the Finance Bill? In asking that I am relying on the rules and procedures of the House. I should like to have a clear indication regarding this matter so that we will have sufficient time to debate the Finance Bill this year, unlike last year. The Bill must pass all stages by a certain date——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not allow a speech or a lecture by the Deputy.

The Taoiseach

It will be circulated on 26 March.

Mr. O'Kennedy

That will be during the recess. When is it proposed to take Second Stage?

The Taoiseach

That is a matter for the Whips.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I am relying on Standing Orders——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not allow the Deputy to make a speech.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I wish to refer to Standing Orders Nos. 120, 121 and 122.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am glad that people are taking an interest in Standing Orders.

Mr. O'Kennedy

The Standing Orders to which I referred relate to the manner in which financial business in this House is dealt with. They require that the Estimates——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will resume his seat, I will not allow him to make a long speech.

Mr. O'Kennedy

May I refer to Standing Orders?

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Why not? They clearly lay down the procedures of the House under which the Estimates and budget debates should be taken and I want to refer to them.

An Ceann Comhairle

I allowed the Deputy to ask a question as to when the Finance Bill will be published and he got an answer. If he wants to ask a question as to when the revised Estimates will be published he can do so but I will not allow him to make a speech.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I am relying on procedures and Standing Orders of the House.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must put down a motion——

Mr. O'Kennedy

Standing Order No. 122 says that the ordinary yearly Estimates for the Public Service shall be presented to the Dáil——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has no authority in regard to the circulation of Estimates.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Are you concerned with Standing Orders?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am. That is why I am trying to get the Deputy to sit down.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Standing Orders are not being adhered to. We have not yet received the Estimates and the budget debate is almost concluded.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wants to put down a motion protesting against that he can do so.

Mr. O'Kennedy

If I wish to raise Standing Orders in the House do I have to do so by way of motion?

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wants to protest about something that is not being done in accordance with Standing Orders he can——

Mr. O'Kennedy

As Chairman, I would have thought it more appropriate to draw your attention to Standing Orders and——

An Ceann Comhairle

Standing Orders are abused morning after morning by Deputies.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Kennedy

We should have received the Estimates by now.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can raise that matter——

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Kennedy is out of order; he will resume his seat.

Mr. O'Kennedy

It is very easy to say that. This is a mockery.

Mr. Cluskey

Could I ask the Taoiseach if the Government have made a final decision on the possible banning of importation of fruit from South Africa?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Cluskey

Apart from the announcement of a series of numbers, could you tell me what legitimately arises on the Order of Business because it is very difficult to know——

An Ceann Comhairle

I refer Deputies to Standing Orders and I am convinced——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Kennedy

That is what I have been talking about for the last five minutes.

Mr. Cluskey

Is it legitimate to ask a question about promised legislation?

An Ceann Comhairle

If it is about promised legislation it is a legitimate question but I am not aware that such legislation has been promised.

Mr. Cluskey

It has been announced that the Government are considering this possibility.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a different matter.

Mr. Cluskey

On what basis is it not a legitimate question?

An Ceann Comhairle

It has not been promised.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. S. Byrne

Would the Taoiseach allow time to discuss intervention beef as I understand it may not be continued? If this happens the effects will be worse than the super-levy ——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order either.

Mr. S. Byrne

It is our greatest industry——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order.

Mr. O'Kennedy

The Taoiseach will tell all to his severe critics in his own party rooms in an hour, but we are not entitled to know what is going on regarding legislation or procedure.

Mr. B. Ahern

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the large number of robberies in banks, post offices, supermarkets and business premises in the Drumcondra-Phibsboro area over the past five days.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.