By agreement and notwithstanding Standing Orders, Members will be called in Private Members' Time this evening as follows: 7 p.m. to 7.10 p.m. Fianna Fáil speaker; 7.10 p.m. to 7.40 p.m. Government speaker; 7.40 p.m. to 8 p.m. Fianna Fáil speaker; 8 p.m. to 8.10 p.m. Fianna Fáil speaker; 8.10 p.m. to 8.15 p.m. Government speaker; 8.15 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. Fianna Fáil speaker.
Private Members' Business. - Carysfort Training College: Motion (Resumed).
The following motion was moved by Deputy O'Rourke on Tuesday, 4 March 1986:
That Dáil Éireann condemns the arbitrary and precipitate decision of the Government to close down Carysfort College and requests that immediate action be taken to ensure that this great and valuable institution be retained as an integral part of our higher educational system, with a specific role in teacher education.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
Dáil Éireann notes the action of the Government in rationalising the facilities for the education of primary teachers and in seeking, through discussion with the interested parties, to establish an alternative role in higher education for the Carysfort College, having regard to its structure and traditions, the expertise of its staff and the developmental requirements of education generally.
— (Minister of State at the Department of Education.)
Is that agreed?
No. This is unfortunately becoming a feature of Private Members' Business and some other debates also. The Workers' Party have tabled an amendment to the motion before the House. Other Deputies have also tabled amendments. I sought through your office for time for Deputy Mac Giolla to speak in this debate. In the past, before this practice of introducing lists of speakers, you did endeavour to provide some few minutes to us in order to address ourselves to our amendments. I must protest that this procedure of introducing lists at this point, which specifically excludes those of us who have amendments to the motion before the House, is a restriction on our right to speak. It is unacceptable and completely unsatisfactory. I would ask the Whips on both sides of the House to be a bit more fair in terms of time allocated during Private Members' Business to those of us who represent views not represented by them.
Are you agreeing to the proposal put by the Minister of State, Deputy?
No, it is not agreed.
I am putting the question: "That the speakers be called during Private Members' Time in accordance with the schedule read out by the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach".
Question declared carried.
Could I briefly say——
We are also entitled to our rights.
Deputy Andrews may leave this to the Chair.
I am doing my best.
You are helping to consume your own time.
I have not been out of order up to this point. I simply want to make the point that we could have deprived the House of 20 minutes speaking time if we had chosen to do so.
I stopped dead on time.
Deputy Andrews has ten minutes, five of which have gone.
May I very quickly say no thanks to The Workers' Party who on the one hand propose democracy and on the other deny it? This, of course, is typical. The reality of the situation is that I am a Dáil Deputy for the constituency——
A Cheann Comhairle, ask the Deputy to withdraw that remark.
I will not withdraw the remark.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy, provocative remarks would be better not made. I cannot rule what Deputy Andrews said out of order because I do not think it is unparliamentary, it may not be.
(Interruptions.)
The fact of the matter is this, and I am not wasting time, if the Deputy had not made a charge against me, I would not be on my feet. He has made a charge that I am not a democratic politician and that is unparliamentary.
That is not what I said. I said you proposed democracy and you are denying my democratic rights.
I have not denied your democratic right to speak.
Deputy Andrews on the motion.
He is not speaking through the Chair.
As one of the local Dáil Deputies for the constituency of Dún Laoghaire, I was very concerned at the proposed closure of Carysfort Training College. I am, in the nature of things, over the wall of Carysfort college in that I am a next door neighbour and have been so in excess of the last 20 years. One can imagine the horror in the local community when it was proposed that the college be closed. There is another additional feature to this. I have discussed the philosophy, the economics and educational problems etc. in my 20 minute contribution last evening. The local economy will also have been affected by this proposed decision to close Carysfort. The local community in the Booterstown, Blackrock, Monkstown and Dún Laoghaire areas, which the Minister seems to have forgotten, depend for their livelihood on Carysfort —landladies, shopkeepers and all those people who in one way or another support the local community. In addition to the shopkeepers and the landladies, there is the support and maintenance staff of the college itself who will be made redundant. The college is a vital part of the local economy and it is not good enough to seek to undermine units of vital economic significance to a locality, especially when there are no tenable arguments for such an action.
It is very interesting that all elements of the community came out strongly against the proposed closure, including the Blackrock Businesses Association and the Blackrock Community Council, which I have supported and will continue to support until this matter reaches its proper conclusion, namely, that the Minister this evening in his remarks, hopefully, will make a definite statement once and for all clearing the air and giving back to the staff, to the community, to those people working in Carysfort college — the maintenance staff and students—— peace of mind. Let them settle back into their traditional role once and for all. That is what they want. That is what they are entitled to get. I am discussing the educational and economic sides, therefore, the Government's curt statement on Carysfort college is both a reflection on their unwillingness to contribute to educational progress and on their intrinsically flawed economic policies. It is also a comment on Ireland under this Coalition. In her day the foundress of the Sisters of Mercy, Mother Catherine McAuley, was to the forefront of the movement for the advancement of women. Moreover, as has been pointed out by various commentators, the women teachers whom she and her successors trained to staff her schools served the nation well. They enhanced the role of women as leadership figures in their own communities even before there was a formally organised women's movement or women's liberation in this country.
Hear, hear.
They were good people and I mean that in a special sense. They had a sense of responsibility to their pupils and their communities. In bad times they and their own——
The time allocated to the Deputy has now expired.
I will conclude by once more appealing to the Minister to clear the air on behalf of the community and Carysfort. I know he will do that because I believe the Fianna Fáil Party have succeeded in achieving their objection, namely, to ensure that Carysfort college remains open to serve the nation.
There was an expectation when the Opposition put down this motion and moved it in Private Members' time that we would have a contentious and acrimonious debate on a subject which has been controversial. I am glad to say that that expectation has not come to pass because the constructive contribution from my constitutency colleague made it very clear that on this issue there is a common case between both sides of the House. Too often there is a feeling on both sides that we must approach matters in an adversarial spirit, that we have to get into confrontation, that the Opposition are not doing their job unless they automatically oppose red tooth and claw and that the Government are not doing their job unless they respond in kind.
Some debates provoke that sort of adversarial situation. In a case like this where there is clear common case between us adversarial politics are out of place. Deputy O'Rourke set the tone for her party, which I am sure will be followed by the remaining speakers on that side, notwithstanding the unfortunate lapse from that standard by Deputy Andrews who had not the graciousness to wait ten seconds for my speech having concluded his remarks by expressing the wish and hope that I would make statements that would satisfy what he was looking for. When Deputy De Rossa queried arrangements for speaking, he showed himself more aware of the dignity of the House and the democratic duty of Deputies to stay and listen to the debates——
Where does the Minister get all the olive oil?
——than Deputy Andrews who made the castigation of Deputy De Rossa and, as soon as he was finished his speech, marched out.
Has the Minister a script?
Under Standing Orders, if I may be so bold, the only people who are entitled to use scripts are Ministers who are proposing or moving debates. It is an unfortunate practice that has crept into the House that Deputies invariably come here with scripts and nobody knows whether they are their own production or whether they are merely reciting the views of somebody in a backroom upstairs. I do not have a script. The Deputy will have to listen viva voce. I welcome the constructive approach because it is my objective to be equally constructive. I hope that the controversy which arose over the whole Carysfort issue can be put behind us. At this stage, close to the actual event, one's perspectives are not unnaturally narrowed by that closeness. I have no doubt that with the passage of time it will be seen that the words in the Fianna Fáil motion, arbitrary and precipitate, were unfortunate. To suggest that the decision was arbitrary in the sense that it was taken as a stand alone without being placed in any budgetary or educational context, will be seen in the fullness of time to be a misdescription. Likewise, the use of the word precipitate, with the passage of time and the benefit of hindsight, will also be seen to be an inaccurate word. I do not propose to reopen the controversy. That would be unfortunate.
Another unfortunate aspect which will be cured in time is the way in which the controversy focused in a very personal way on my predecessor. The impression went abroad that she was a person somehow less than caring and lacking in consideration. People who know her character will have no doubt that any accusations along those lines are totally misplaced. Deputy O'Rourke is not long in the House and if — and it is a big if — in the fullness of time she achieves office——
It will not be if.
——undoubtedly she will find herself, as do all politicians, in a position up front and the buck stops with them. It is unfortunate that a politician should be castigated in a personal way for carrying out a collective decision. I say that in fairness to my predecessor. Time will show that the amount of work which my predecessor has done in her few short years in the Department of Education has been quite outstanding and unique in its innovative character and in the depth of reform which she has initiated throughout the whole educational field. That has been acknowledged by the professionals in that field. It is unfortunate that the controversy broke out. It is the wish of all parties involved that the book would be firmly closed on this controversy and that we now move forward——
Do it now.
—— recognising the problems that have to be tackled and the positions and responsibilities of the various parties involved in Carysfort College. First, we must consider the position of the Sisters of Mercy who are the legal owners of the college. They founded it, built it and serviced it over many years, a century plus. It must also be recognised that there is considerable State investment in the campus, measured in money terms not insignificant by any means. We must also think of the teaching staff and the student body.
With regard to the present student body it has been made clear to them that the courses on which they have embarked will be brought to a conclusion on the Carysfort campus. That decision eased a lot of unrest and anxiety for the present corps of students and enabled them to pursue and successfully complete their studies leading to graduation. I want to join with Deputy O'Rourke in paying tribute to the work of the Sisters of Mercy over the years. She had an anecdote to show her family connection. I might cap it if I might be permitted to do so.
The Minister will not cap my grandfather with two wives.
No, I will not pursue that any further but he was a wise man to go twice for a teacher. My anecdote is that my first day at school was in the caring hands of the Sisters of Mercy. I am glad to say that the kind sister who received me that day, when I was four years old, is still hale and hearty and living in St. Joseph's in Longford. When religious have a responsibility they do not discharge it in the same way as a lay person, as a livelihood and a profession, but as a vocation.
The Sisters of Mercy were founded with two specific vocational objectives, the training of teachers and teaching and providing nursing services for the poor. It is quite clear that the objective of that vocation will have to be honoured and taken into account in whatever new role is devised for Carysfort. Lest there be any doubt, Carysfort as a teacher training college will have to have a new role. The numbers needed in our primary teaching system have declined to an extent that there is now a surplus of training places in that whole area. There is no rational justification for maintaining three training colleges when two training colleges provide more than enough space to train all the teachers we can foresee as being needed over the next number of years. That is a fact of life about which we cannot be sentimental. We must face it. It was that unfortunate fact of life that precipitated the present issue.
I visited Carysfort last week for two purposes, to meet the sisters, staff and students and to see the premises and get an idea of the size of the campus and the range of facilities there. It was essentially a courtesy call. I regret that when I was coming out of the building I allowed myself to be door-stepped by a television reporter. I regret this because somebody of my political experience should not have allowed that to happen to him and it may have given the impression which was adverted to here, I am sure with the best of intentions by Deputy Andrews last night, that I was somehow in breach of faith, having said that my visit was one of courtesy. It was intended to be a courtesy visit, not a business visit and was not to be accompanied by a statement to the press.
When I was in Carysfort there were other ladies and gentlemen of the media present and they can confirm that I did not give interviews. I spoke to the staff and students there and it is possible that they talked to the press afterwards. That is part and parcel of what happens and, if somebody repeated what was said at these meetings, it is unfair to attribute that to me. I make this clear because there was an accusation of bad faith against me. It was not my intention to act in bad faith and I did not do so. If there is any misunderstanding I am glad to clear it up. It is essential that we go forward without misunderstandings and that we trust each other.
I cannot, as Minister for Education, decree what is to happen to Carysfort College because I do not own it. The State has an investment, an equity, a high interest in it because of its importance in the educational scene. Likewise, neither can the owners and management say exclusively what is to become of it because they are interdependent with the State. Like considerations apply to the professional staff. I have no doubt that between the three components interested in and responsible for the future of Carysfort with goodwill, and one common basic objective, the betterment of the educational system, we can devise uses for Carysfort in future that will fulfil and recognise the vocational aspirations of the Sisters of Mercy, that can give satisfaction to the professional staff and that can produce immense benefits for the educational system.
I do not propose to speculate about its future uses. The question of in-service training was mentioned by Deputy O'Rourke as a possible option. It is, but it is something that is very technical. The nature, scope and funding of this option is a very technical issue but it is a very valuable and important element of teacher training and the educational scene. Undoubtedly, that is a subject that would have to get close examination. There are other options but I will not speculate on them because that might raise apprehensions or expectations that could not be fulfilled or that might be misplaced.
I intend arranging and setting up structures whereby discussions will get under way between all the interested parties. Submissions will be invited from appropriate technical people and I invite Deputy O'Rourke, and any other member of her party who would be interested, to make submissions into these structures that I propose setting up so that we can preserve this feeling of common case, that we share a common concern for those involved in the educational system. I hope to be able to devise these structures and commence discussion in the very near future. That will be an exciting and interesting development when one considers it in parallel with the establishment of the Curriculum and Examinations Board with its potential for innovation and change. Everyone interested in the educational scene will see an interesting and exciting time ahead for education. However, it will take a little time. It is essential that the area should be free from controversy. Deputy O'Rourke has contributed greatly to that in the spirit of her contribution to these proceedings.
I will expand on why it is not possible to continue Carysfort as a teacher training single purpose institution. The numbers are not required. There is excess capacity in the system which nobody can deny. All our training colleges since their foundation have operated as single purpose institutions to educate and train teachers and they have done their job outstandingly well. In 1974-75 the training course was lengthened to three years. At that stage the colleges took advantage of that to strengthen and enrich their courses and form associations with the universities and this led to the award of the degree of Bachelor of Education to the graduates of the colleges. We have had a core of professional teachers second to none in Europe. That statement would stand objective examination.
One must remember that all those outstanding people were the products of single purpose colleges devoted exclusively to the training of national teachers. Two colleges will continue to be so exclusively devoted, but I put this slight emphasis on the question of single purpose institutions to indicate that what might be in some people's minds, the hope that some people might have for the continuance of teacher training as we know it on a reduced scale in Carysfort with the implication that along with it other activities will be taking place, would be totally out of line with the traditional way in which teachers have been trained. The traditional way has been outstandingly successful, and to have an educational regime in Carysfort that would try to marry the traditional way and some new developments is a priori risky and should not be embarked on when there is no need to embark on it because already we have the two other colleges to continue the outstandingly successful training methods that have served us so well for so long. I make that point lest anybody be unwittingly misled after our discussions here this evening as to what precisely my view on that issue is. That is not to say that some facets, some elements, some specialised areas of primary teacher training could not continue to be dealt with in Carysfort, but even saying that I am getting into an area from which I have excluded myself, speculation on what might be the eventual use to be made of Carysfort. I want to get away from that; I do not want to get into it because that is best done within the structures we will set up by the people best qualified to contribute to those structures and, above all, away from controversy and publicity. I have no doubt that when we finish our discussions — there is adequate time for them to take place in a comprehensive and detailed way because the college will be busy with the present student body until they graduate, albeit reducing — we will be able to put together an interesting package.
Ideas have been put to me from a great number of sources, ideas which I find exciting and innovative and which will be of immense benefit to our educational system. Changes are now taking place in Irish education which are fundamental because the shape of our education today will to a very large measure determine the shape of our society in years to come. We must be careful that the changes we make will be appropriate, consistent with the type of society we want to see on this island in the decades ahead. A heavy responsibility lies on all of us who are interested in the educational scene to ensure that all the facilities available to us are used in the best way possible so that the great challenge will be discharged and when future generations come to look back with their perspective on education they will be able to say that in our time we were at least not unwise and possibly wise.
I hope I have made it clear why I cannot answer Deputy O'Rourke's invitation in the course of her speech that I would make a commitment on the lines she asked. I can make a commitment in general terms that the facilities in Carysfort, the ownership, management and staff there, will be involved in exciting and interesting work for the benefit of Irish education. I want to make that commitment here seriously, and a commitment that I would expect to see fulfilled——
The Minister is as clear as the oracle at Delphi.
——in the very near future. I hope that this debate will be a beginning and an end, an end to the controversy that surrounded the decision to terminate teacher training at Carysfort, a decision that I have no doubt as time goes by will be seen to have been correct and unavoidable, though regrettable and having regard to the demographic changes taking place all round us, inescapable. It will be seen also as a beginning of a new, equally important role for a wonderful institution. I look forward to participating in that work. I conclude by expressing the confident hope that all the parties involved in Carysfort will join with me in looking forward to discharging that task.
Is mian liom comhghaírdeas a dhéanamh leis an Teachta Cooney ar a cheapachán mar Aire Oideachais. Guím rath ar a chuid oibre.
Agus maidir leis an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Kenny agus an tAire Stáit eile, an Teachta Barrett, ba mhaith liom mo chomhgháirdeas agus deá-mhéin a chur in iúl don bheirt sin chomh maith.
Ba cheart do gach duine a bhfuil meas aige nó aici ar chothrom na féinne agus ar chearta daonna cur i gcoinne cinneadh an Rialtais maidir le dúnadh Choláiste Dhún Chéire, mar is cuma cad tá le rá ag an Aire i ndeireadh na dála, sí an cheist sin dúnadh Choláiste Dhún Chéire atá i gceist againn.
Níor thairg an Rialtas ach cúis amháin le dúnadh an choláiste, sé sin, go sabhálfaí airgead. Níor bhfiú leis an Rialtas dul i gcomhairle le húdaráis an choláiste le cás an choláiste a phlé. Níor bhfiú leis an Rialtas bacadh le gnéithe oideachasúla, soisialta nó cultúrtha a mbeadh cur isteach ag dúnadh an choláiste orthu.
Is í fírinne an scéil nach bhfuil in ndeireadh na dála ach £0.5 milliún sa bhliain le sábháil i dhúnadh an choláiste. Níl a fhios againn cad é an fiúntas agus an saibhreas atá caillte trín mbeart eágórach, fealltach seo. An amhlaidh nach miste leis an Rialtas an chailliúint atá i ndán don chultúr Gaelach a ndearnadh cúram dúthrachtach de i gColáiste Dhún Chéire?
Táimid ag caitheamh £120 milliún sa bhliain ar AnCO agus níl ar a shon againn i ndeireadh na dála ach cáilíochtaí nach bhfuil aitheantas nó creidiúint acu taobh amuigh den tír seo. Táimid ag próiseáil aos óg na tíre seo trí chúrsaí AnCO, ceann i ndiaidh an chinn eile, agus is beag atá ar a shon againn. Ach i nDún Céire tá céimeanna Ollscoile-Teastas foirmiúla — a bhfuil aitheantas idir-náisiúnta ar fáil ar bheagán costais i gcomparáid leis an gcostas a bheadh ar an gCiste Stáit iad a chur trí AnCO.
Cén saghas machall meoine, seachrán céille nó cailliúint stuama atá ag teacht ar an Rialtas nuair a dhúnann siad coláiste den chéad ghrád a bhfuil costas anbheag le híoc acu ar cháilíocht gairmiúil ollscoile nuair atá siad ag caitheamh £10,000 sa bhliain an duine ar ógánaigh atá á gcur ar chúrsaí i ndiaidh chúrsa ag AnCO agus ar £1,000 an duine sa bhliain tá an Rialtas in ann céimithe a fháil ó Choláiste Dhún Céire.
In ionad deireadh a chur le Coláiste Dhún Chéire iarraim ar an Aire agus ar an Rialtas cead a gcinn a thabhairt don bhainisteoir agus don bhord atá ann as ucht na deá-oibre atá déanta acu leis na blianta.
I want to address a number of issues in relation to Carysfort as an educational institution, its proud tradition and the reasons as to whether one should or should not change the present arrangements in Carysfort or develop other structures and facilities in line with the existing services there. Before I do, however, and not in any way intent on opposition for opposition's sake, or on being antagonistic towards the Minister, I wish to raise a number of very serious fundamental issues arising directly from what he said, hinted, suggested and inferred and what he did not say. He talked about not wanting to raise expectations but wanting to be constructive and positive and wanting an all-round forum for discussion.
I cannot be sure of what he said but I have some reasonably professional acquaintanceship with the whole issue of teacher training since I spent a few years with my colleague across the floor, Deputy Kenny, in one of these institutions some years ago and spent some years as a teacher in this city. I am going to address a number of things that the Minister said or inferred and perhaps we will have some clarification before the end of the evening. I shall point out to the Minister some very important, fundamental reasons why we should have that clarification.
First, the Minister called for "the closing of the book on this controversy". I hope I am quoting him correctly. In some way he implied that this side of the House initiated the controversy. I should like to knock that on the head. I know the Minister will have to agree with me when I say that on 3 and 4 February last two letters issued from his Department, the first to the office of His Grace, the Archbishop of Dublin, informing the Archbishop after going into some slight detail about the great honour that Carysfort college had bestowed on the nation and the tremendously important role in had in education down through the decades, that Carysfort college had to be closed. I believe what I was told and they were the words I was told were used in that correspondence — that Carysfort college of education was to be closed. On the following day there was subsequent correspondence with the management of the college using the expression "the closure of Carysfort college". It is quite clear what that means. One can only come to one definite conclusion in interpreting those words, that Our Lady of Mercy College of Education, Carysfort, was to close.
There are a number of senses to all this and one sense on which we could all agree is that we have come a significant way tonight from that situation where letters issued from the Department of Education telling the management of Carysfort college that their college was to be closed without consultation, without discussion, without any due regard having been given to the very impressive set of proposals that have been put from that college as a response to their acknowledgement that there was under-utilisation of the resources. In one sense we have come a considerably long way tonight. I am acknowledging that, on the part of this side of the House. At least we are hearing a lot now about consultation, about a forum for all-round discussion with all the interested parties, of invitations, even to this side of the House, to make an input into these fora for discussions and consultations.
Having said that, I still must put a question to the Minister once again because much of what he said here this evening, contrary to dampening expectations, must be raising them in many ways. The Minister went to some lengths to define the vocational role of the Sisters of Mercy. He then went on to suggest in some way that any agreement arrived at would give expression to those vocational aspirations of the Sisters of Mercy. He talked about the need for setting up structures for the proper resolution of the problem in the interests of the future of education and about the college in the future, the institution, the structure, having a very important and exciting role in the provision of Irish education.
What the Minister did not say clearly one way or the other and he is reported as having said it last Friday — his Minister of State certainly stated it last night — is that the resources hitherto available to Carysfort college in the context of the milieu of teacher training must be reallocated and the role of the college redefined. There is one and only one interpretation that the management of Carysfort can put on it, and indeed all Deputies in this House who want objectively to interpret it, that is, that teacher training in Carysfort is to cease. Why the Minister did not state that clearly this evening is beyond me.
I put it to him that there are at present leaving certificate students who wish to apply for teacher training and are still confused as to whether Carysfort college will be one of the colleges prepared and able to offer those courses. Added to what we heard last Friday and what has been said over the past couple of days, in the House here this afternoon, in response to question from Deputies O'Rourke and De Rossa, the Minister said:
I do not want to be previous in anything I will or will not do, I will rule out or will not rule out, and I will not rule out teacher training.
That is what I took down verbatim from the Minister this afternoon. The record of the House will show that what I am saying is correct.
The record of the House will show that I referred to elements of teacher training.
I am sorry, the Minister did not use the word "elements". He said: "I will not rule out teacher training."
No.
The oracle at Delphi.
I am at a loss to know precisely what the Minister has been saying here. Talk about ring a ring a rosies! That is how we have been going, following the words, turns of phrase and expressions. At the end of the day what I see is confusion. It suggests — but I hope that I am wrong in this — a deliberate attempt to confuse on the part of the Minister this evening in the House. No definitive statement was made in relation to the central kernel issue here. Is there or is there not going to be teacher training or teacher education, as we know it? The Minister knows what we mean. The Irish public know; the board of management, staff and students of Carysfort college know what we mean. Will there or will there not be teacher training at Carysfort college in the future? In accordance with the responsibilities and duties placed on him in his office I hope the Minister will give an unequivocal statement on that this evening, one way or the other.
It is a very sad day for Irish education, and indeed for the nation as a whole, for its culture and traditions, that a motion such as this has to be put down by Deputy O'Rourke. Indeed, only for the vigilance of that Deputy in this matter, her constructiveness and positiveness, the manner in which she treated this entire episode, the wish expressed by the Minister about keeping the controversy down might have been realised. I commend Deputy O'Rourke for putting down the motion——
Hear, hear.
That Dáil Éireann condemns the arbitrary and precipitate decision of the Government to close down Carysfort College and requests that immediate action be taken to ensure that this great and valuable institution be retained as an integral part of our higher educational system, with a specific role in teacher education.
I want to commend Deputy O'Rourke for being positive and constructive about this and for the manner in which she has handled this entire controversial episode over the past four weeks. The discarding of such a proud tradition of educational service as Carysfort is not only alarming but must be totally deplored.
I think it is only appropriate that we in this House should reflect for a moment on the enormous contribution to education made by the Sisters of Mercy at Carysfort and before that at Baggot Street. This proud tradition, selflessly committed, extends over a century and a half of our history. The hallmark of this great institution known as Carysfort college was of a spirit fired by a vision which was inherited from Sister Catherine McAuley herself. From its very inception, this college saw its role in the training of teachers who would go forth to educate the nation. This vision and commitment to the Irish people is equally personified today in the present custodians of that proud inheritence. These sisters and their colleagues have turned out many generations of competent, dedicated teachers whose spheres of influence have enriched every parish and every home in Ireland.
At a time when educational services in Ireland demand responsible and realistic action, the insensitivity of the previous Minister — and I make no apology for referring to her in view of the evidence which is there in abundance as to what she did and how she went about what she definitely proposed to do — in this instance sadly reflects a failure on the part of the Minister and the Government to understand the educational requirements of the eighties.
Invitations extended over the past few years to interested parties, such as parents, teachers and others to identify the important issues for the future of education ring rather hollow when juxtaposed against what has happened over the last four weeks. The previous Minister's encouragement to these parties to process solutions through the establishment of such bodies as the Curriculum and Examinations Board was obviously no more than a public exercise in deception. I hope the invitation extended this evening from the Minister, given against the background of what he said about the college and its potential, will not also be a public exercise in deception.
The consultative and discussion documents emanating from the Curriculum and Examinations Board all highlight the urgent need for educational reform. It was obvious that this reform had implications for all levels of education. However, this peremptory decision made by the Minister on 3 February has made a complete farce of the whole process of consultation. It showed a failure to appreciate the crisis in education in Ireland today and the tradition, pride and value that the Irish people have always had for education, and for the various educational institutions that have made such a unique contribution to the establishment and development of the teaching profession in Ireland.
Over the past 60 years Ministers for Education have always indicated a willingness for consultation and discussion. It is regrettable that the previous Minister was the first to break that carefully nurtured tradition. She compounded the insult by attempting publicly to misrepresent the facts. Statements subsequent to the announcement ran contrary to the now known outline of the events and can only have been interpreted as an attempt to discredit a responsible and most competent manager in the interests of selfpreservation.
Everybody acknowledges the need for rationalisation of educational services. Deputy O'Rourke acknowledged that last night, as did Deputy Andrews. At a time of spare capacity in some sectors contrasting with a rapidly increasing need for additional resources in others, it is only reasonable that responsible authorities should seek the more efficient utilisation of these resources. We on this side of the House freely acknowledge, as do the Government and Sister Regina Durkan and her management board for their part, that there are spare capacity and resources at Carysfort College. Nobody denies that. The facts are known and they are acknowledged publicly.
The college itself, recognising this situation, responsibly acknowledged it and indeed as far back as 1982, a college development committee were set up to identify priorities for the college for the future. Early the following year, the college board endorsed a series of proposals from this committee which reaffirmed the commitment to preservice training, proposed extensive involvement in inservice provision and it envisaged diversification outside of teacher education for the first time.
In April 1984, the college board made a detailed innovative and positive response to the Government's Programme for Action in Education 1984-87 which took account of the Department's reduction in the number entering all the colleges of education in the State and the increasing requirement for third level places arising from the expanding youth population. The response document contained proposals relating to certificate and diploma level, to inservice courses for primary level teachers and in addition to an explicit offer to provide places and courses for third level students other than trainee teachers.
The college requested a meeting with the Department of Education to discuss these proposals and I am reliably informed that this request was not responded to until subsequent to a telephone call in November of that year, when a meeting was eventually convened in December. The portion of that December 1984 meeting given to discussion of the college response document was deliberately restricted to some consideration of the proposals concerning inservice education. No follow up response to this December 1984 meeting emanated from the Minister's office. Nevertheless, conscious of their responsibilities and obligations at all times to the nation, the college once again took the initiative in June 1985. They submitted a second document which contained a comprehensive review of all developments. The only response was a letter of 3 February 1986 from the Minister to his Grace, the Archbishop, announcing the closure of Our Lady of Mercy College of Education at Carysfort.
Contrast this ministerial edict with the caring responsible approach of the college authorities. Surely anybody who is reasonable in this House, who is fair and who is honest, will admit that this was grossly unfair to the college management. It was insulting, it was demeaning to a board who had acted so responsibly, who had acted so caringly and who had addressed this serious issue so comprehensively. It must also be regarded as a blot on the career of any Minister who would behave in such a fashion.
I am told that this exclusion was on the grounds that they were outside the mandate of the colleges and their role in teacher training. It would appear that outmoded administrative structures obtaining in the Department of Education were preventing an all round discussion on a document that was clearly thought through by the college management and took full account of the resources, the capacity and the goodwill of the college authorities at Carysfort to meet a new situation. In this way it was preventing the college from pursuing their objectives in relation to diversification.
Surely the very least the college authorities could have expected was to have been listened to, or did the Minister believe, like her colleague in Health, that to consult was to concede? Is there anything wrong with conceding to reason, to better alternatives and to wiser counsel? More importantly, the apparent absence of goodwill on the part of the Minister to have this issue addressed within her Department is a serious comment on the competence of the then office holder.
Indeed, one has to ask if the present Minister is terminating the teacher training at Carysfort for these very same reasons. If he is, then he should spell it out. What is he doing in relation to teacher training, as we know it, at Carysfort? I believe the view still prevails that the issue or question of diversification, and as to whether it should refer to Carysfort, can be addressed only in the context of the closure of teacher training. In other words, nothing can happen until the teacher training is scrapped — gone.
I want to point out to the Minister that the time is now appropriate for the concentration of minds within his Department to enable the administrative problems or structures which are inhibiting progress for an all round forum to be pushed aside.
My colleague, Deputy O'Rourke, and myself, and I am sure everybody on this side of the House, are very happy to observe that that very august body of people, those very dedicated and loyal civil servants, have recently resumed their rightful place in the Department of Education.
There are a number of very important issues in relation to Carysfort, and whether the college should close. The education and the economic arguments are the two main arguments advanced. I believe the decision itself is neither economically sound not educationally valid. The Government put forward one main justification for their decision —"To contain public expenditure and to achieve a better reallocation of resources". This justification does not stand up to scrutiny and neither does the justification that the resources available to the college, so impressive, so caringly built up over the years by the Sisters, cannot be married into innovations which the Sisters are so anxious and so willing to bring about at Carysfort. If the decision, as it has been understood to be, to close down teacher training at Carysfort is persisted in, then this Minister and his Government can legitimately be accused of the national sabotage of a fine and proud institution.
It seems to have been the practice during this debate last evening and again this evening for people to specify their pedigree. Let me go one further than my colleague, Deputy O'Rourke, or the Minister, in saying that not alone was I educated at primary school by the Sisters of Mercy but also in secondary school. Indeed I have the great privilege of being the only Member of either House of the Oireachtas to be a former student of Carysfort college. I express our sincere debt of gratitude to the college, staff, the students and most particularly to the person who has handled all of the controversy, all of the emotional issues that have been raised over the past month, Sister Regina Durkan. She was my lecturer in English — I do not think she made such a bad job of it. She has dealt with this matter in a cool, calm, unemotional way ever since the news broke four weeks ago. The attitude adopted by the Minister this evening, and the Minister of State last evening, is not at all the type of attitude that should be adopted in relation to the college, and in particular, Sister Regina.
The type of courtesy Carysfort warrants at present is that of open and constructive consultation about its future in respect of the central purpose for which the college was founded, that is teacher training. I do not think the Minister, the Minister of State or departmental officials can seriously ask the college authorities now to enter into negotiations or consultations about future types of higher education in the college. The creation of any kind of a positive future for the college is dependent on the restoration of the trust between the college authorities and the Department which has been destroyed over the past four weeks. If the college authorities were to enter into consultations with the Minister or his Department in relation to any future educational facility in the college, one must ask are they to be told in another 100 years, another 20 years or maybe less, "Sorry, we do not need your institution any longer"?
Níl paróiste sa tír, faoin dtuath nó in aon chathair, nach bhfuil rian Charysfort fágtha air: is iad iar-scoláirí an choláiste na ceannairí ina gceantair féin, ó thaobh an oideachais, an chultúir, an teanga agus an saol sóisialta go minic.
Cén sórt coláiste atá ag teastáil uainn i gCarysfort — coláiste a thóigeas ar an mbunchloch de thradisiúin phroifisiúnta den scoth in oiliúint bun-mhúinteóirí agus a leanfas den oiliúint seo fiú má chaithfear an líon micléinn a laghdú agus creidim go nglacaimid ar fad go gcaithfear sin a dhéanamh.
Tá coláiste ag teastail a dhéanfas forbairt ar chúrsaí in-seirbhíse agus oideachas leanúnach do mhúinteóirí a bhfuil toscaí coimpléaseacha rompu sa seomra ranga sa saol atá inniu ann. Le go mbeadh seirbhís den tsórt sin sásúil ar fáil sa tír ní mór dó a bheith ar dtús lárnach agus é a bheith eagraithe mar ba chóir agus creidim nach bhfuil aon institiúid nó aon ionad oideachais sa tír go bhféadfaí é sin a dhéanamh ná i nDún Chéire.
Tá coláiste uainn freisin a choinneos beo, bríomhar an tradisiún cultúrtha, ceoil, spórt agus teanga náisiúnta len é sin a fhuineadh agus a fháisceadh sna glúnta de dhaoine óga atá le teacht sa gcaoi chéanna go bhfuil sé sin déanta ag údaráis an choláiste le blianta 'sna glúnta de mhúinteoirí na tíre atá imithe.
Tá coláiste riachtanach freisin a dhéanfadh forbairt ar chúrsaí nua oideachais: cúrsaí cumarsáide, seirbhísí gnó, seirbhísí eolais, staidéir ghinearálta agus rudaí nach iad sa gcaoi go dtabharfaí deis do na micléinn atá anois sa dara leibhéal agus a mbeidh áiteacha tríú leibhéal riachtanach dóibh amach anseo.
Tá coláiste ag teastáil freisin a ofráileann taithí beo oideachasúil i ndrámaíocht, i gceol, i bprós atá agus a bhí ar fáil ag micléinn an choláiste agus gur féidir iad sin a leathnú agus a fhorbairt mar chúrsaí nua de éagsúlacht mhicléinn sa gcoláiste amach anseo.
Tá coláiste ag teastáil go géar a thabharfadh chun cinn an chuid is fearr de thradisiúin oideachasúla an ama atá caite agus na tradisiúin sin a shnaidhmiú i gcúrsa oiliúna leathnaithe mar chuid de chóras oideachais na tíre.
Tá cúig nóiméad fágtha agat, a Theachta.
Ní thoghfaidh mé an oiread sin ama. Tá coláiste ag teastáil a thaispeánfas na láidreachtaí praiticiúla agus na h-idéalacha a thuill clíú agus cáil i bhfad is i ngearr, i gcomhngar agus i gcéin mar ionad léinn a thuill Carysfort agus iad ag plé le hoiliúint múinteoirí 'sna blianta a chuaigh thart agus a bheadh anois ar fáil mar ionad léinn níos leithne sa todhchaí.
D'éist mise go géar aréir leis an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Kenny. Agus mé ag caint air ba mhaith liom treaslú leis as ucht a cheapacháin mar Aire Stáit. Chreid mise i gcónaí gur cheart go mbeadh an Roinn Oideachais agus oifigigh na Roinne sin ag breathnú rompu an t-am ar fad, go mbeidís i bhfad chun cinn ar aon Aire nó ar aon Rialtas, nach mbeidís ag brath ar aon Rialtas le polasaithe áirithe a chur ar aghaidh sa Roinn, go bhféadfaidís féin a bheith i bhfad chun cinn ar rudaí den tsórt sin, San am ghearr a chaith mé féin sa Roinn ní chreidim go daingean gur mar sin atá. B'fhéidir go bhfuil a locht ar pholaiteoirí nach dtugann cead a gcinn do na oifigigh breátha sin, a luaigh an Teachta Fitzgerald, atá ag obair sa Roinn agus dá dtabharfaí cead a gcinn dóibh go mbeidís in ann teacht anios leis na cineálacha polasaithe sin.
Agus mé ag éisteacht le óráid an Aire chonaic mé arís agus arís eile ag teacht tríd an óráid sin nach bhfuil aon tslánú in ann do Carysfort agus é a bheith coinnithe mar ionad d'oiliúint bun-mhúinteoirí.
Ní comhlacht gnó é Carysfort. Ní comhlacht gnó a bhí ann cheana, a bhí nó atá ag cailliúint airgid don Stát. Is ionad oideachais é an coláiste de ard chaighdeán nach bhfuil á húsáid in iomlán ag an Roinn ná ag an Rialtas ná ag an Stát. Tá sé mar dhualgas ar an Rialtas insint don phobal na fáthanna nach bhfuil úsáid iomlán á déanamh den choláiste.
Tá sé feicthe againne ar an taobh seo den Teach le trí bliana go leith anuas anois ó thús ré an Rialtais seo nuair atá futhu comhlachtaí Stáit a dhúnadh go ritear síos iad ar dtús sa gcaoi go mbeidh an Rialtas nó an tAire atá ciontach in ann a rá gur gá stop a chur le dul chun cinn an chomhlachta mar go bhfuil an comhlacht ag cailliúint airgid. Meas tú, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, gurb é sin an cleas atá ar bun ag an Rialtas, ag an Roinn nó b'fhéidir acu beirt i leith an choláiste seo.
Creidimse go bhfuil freagra iomlán tuillte ag údarás an choláiste agus ag an bpobal. Níor thug an tAire é anseo anocht. Níor thug an tAire Stáit é aréir. Seachas rud ar bith eile, is cinneadh polaitiúil é an cinneadh seo. Ní cinneadh é ar chuir oifigigh na Roinne os comhair an Rialtais. Ní cinneadh é a bhí ag teastáil nó riachtanach ó oifigigh na Roinne. Is cinneadh polaitiúil agus tógfaidh sé cinneadh polaitiúil deireadh a chur leis an gcinneadh atá déanta. Creidim gur féidir leis an Aire an cinneadh sin a dhéanamh agus iarraim air é a dhéanamh chomh luath agus is féidir.
Deputy Monica Barnes to conclude at 8.15 p.m.
Ordinarily one would view six to seven minutes as being much too short a time in which to contribute to such a debate, bearing in mind the breadth of education, not merely as it obtains at present but — as this debate has shown — its future and the enormous changes that have taken place. The contributions of the Minister, the Minister of State and others represent the beginning of what I hope will be one of the most exciting debates in the history of education here. The manner of the announcement in regard to Carysfort was traumatic but let us hope that the focus now will be on the change in structures that are needed. As Deputy Liam Fitzgerald said, the debate on all sides should concentrate on the potential of Carysfort and what the college has to offer. It must also concentrate on the structures in the Department. The openness of the debate and consultations between the staff and the Sisters of Mercy fill me with hope for the future.
We have an opportunity to explore all avenues. The Minister, in the course of his amendment, focused on the structures and traditions of Carysfort, the expertise of its staff and the developmental requirements of education generally. We should operate in the broad boundaries of that amendment with goodwill on all sides. If that happens we will achieve a result that all of us will be proud of. I hope we will even strengthen the tradition and competence of Carysfort college. The debate has helped to remind us of the past when much less was offered to people in regard to education. Education was the foundation stone and great liberator for all of us. We should all acknowledge that we owe a debt in this regard.
I must stress that there is a sense of urgency about the setting up of the structures mentioned by the Minister. At a time when dialogue is taking place there is a certain amount of insecurity and of not knowing what the future holds. For the staff that amounts to a tremendous amount of pressure. The sooner this issue is resolved to the satisfaction of everybody the better. We must always remember the human element when we are considering changes.
I welcome the fact that the Minister is open to considering all types of new concepts. Deputy O'Rourke spoke with great feeling last night about the enormous changes that need to be brought about in education. I hope that with others I will be able to contribute in a constructive way to the debate that is about to take place. I recognise what Carysfort has done in the past and I hope it will continue its good work for another 100 years. A submission I should like to make is that the resources should be used as a women's studies unit. I recognise that for a long time this was a women's college, one of the liberating forces for women in Ireland, and the tradition of that should not be lost. I shall continue that dialogue in private with the Minister.
I wish the Deputy luck.
Ba mhaith liomsa cuidiú leis an fogra tairisceana i leith Fianna Fáil agus cuidiú leis an moladh comhgháir dais don Aire Stáit nua atá ceapaithe as mo Dháil-Cheantar féin agus an tAire, é féin a ainmníodh mar Aire Oideachais. Is ábhar buartha dúinn uilig agus cúis imní agus díomá an tairiscint tubaisteach, maslach don oideachas a bhí i gcinneadh an Rialtais i leith choláiste Carysfort. Tá an cinneadh sin le cáineadh. Athnaíonn chuile dhuine a bhfuil suim acu i gcúrsaí teangan a dhílse is a bhí coláiste Carysfort don Ghaeilge agus an sár-obair atá déanta ag Roinn na Gaeltachta sa choláiste sin. Tá coláiste Carysfort ar cheann de na fíor-bheagán coláistí tríú léibhéil a bhfuil iarracht fónta déanta acu chun freastal ar pholasaí an Stáit i leith na Gaeilge. Cuid lárnach bhunúsach de réimse oibre choláiste Carysfort is ea an Ghaeilge. B'fhíor sin na blianta fada ó shin agus is fíor fós. Dá thoradh sin tá sé le maíomh ag an coláiste go bhfuil freastal ar leith á dhéanamh acu ar pholasaí an Stáit i leith na Gaeilge.
Oibríonn an coláiste ar son na Gaeilge ar bhealaí éagsúla: I dtosach báire, soláthraíonn Roinn na Gaeilge sa choláiste cúrsaí léinn, atá aitheanta ag Ollscoil na hÉireann, a chuireann ar chumas na mac léinn céim ollscoile sa Ghaeilge a bhaint amach.
I dteannta na hoibre a dhéanann roinn na Gaeilge sa choláiste luíonn dualgas ar Roinn an Oideachais mic léinn a ullmhú i scileanna mhúineadh na Gaeilge. Tá obair den scoth déanta ag an rannóg sin le blianta fada agus ní bréag a rá go mbíonn comhoibriú an-bhreá idir léachtóirí agus mic léinn chun múinteoirí inniúla Gaeilge a chur ar fáil don chóras oideachais.
Tá ceangal nach beag idir coláiste Carysfort agus an Ghaeltacht. Tá sé ina chuid riachtanach dá gcúrsa léinn go bhfreastalódh gach mac léinn céad bhliana ar chúrsa Gaeltachta, mí iomlán sa Ghaeltacht ag deireadh na bliana sin. Toisc an spéis a bhíonn ag na mic léinn féin sa Ghaeilge, bíonn siad ag lorg deiseanna le filleadh ar an nGaeltacht i gcaith eamh a gcúrsa trí bliana i gCarysfort. Is léir go músclaítear spéis sa Ghaeltacht in aigne an ábhair oide agus í ar a cúrsa oiliúna i gCarysfort.
Ach tá ceangal tábhachtach eile ag coláiste Carysfort leis an nGaeltacht. Coinnítear 10 faoin gcéad áiteanna do mhic léinn Ghaeltachta sna coláistí oideachais agus le tamall de bhlianta anuas tá an cuóta sin á líonadh i gCarysfort. Fiú nuair nach n-éireodh le coláistí eile an cuóta a líonadh d'eireodh le Carysfort — rud a léiríonn an tuiscint do thraidisiúin na Gaeilge a bhraithfeadh mic léinn Ghaeltachta a bheith i gCarysfort.
Is léir go bhfuil cúinsí fábhracha chun timpeallacht Ghaelach a choinneáil beo i gcoláiste Carysfort. Cruthúnas ar bheogacht na timpeallachta sin is ea a líonmhaire atá cumainn agus eagrais Ghaeilge sa choláiste. Tá Coiste na Gaeilge ann a bunaíodh chun polasaithe i leith na Gaeilge a cheapadh agus a chur i bhfeidhm. Tá cumann Gaelach, a eagraíonn imeachtaí i nGaeilge do mhic léinn. Tá cumann díospóireachta, cumann béaloidis, cumann drámaíochta, cumann iriseoireachta agus an cumann siamsaíochta, iad go léir ag obair ar son ár dteanga dhúchais agus ár n-oidhreacht.
Cruthaíonn rannpháirtíocht na n-ábhar oidí agus na foirne sna cumainn sin uile timpeallacht Ghaelach ar leith sa choláiste. Dá gcuirfí deireadh le hoiliúint mhúinteoirí sa choláiste scríosfaí an traidisiún Gaeilge sin. Dá gcoimeádfaí coláiste Carysfort ar oscailt chun múinteoirí a oiliúint agus chun cúrsaí tríú leibhéal eile a sholáthar d'fhéadfaí traidisiúin na timpeallachta sin a chaomhnú.
We do not accept that there was no other way to deal with the numbers difficulty affecting Carysfort. We see the decision to close that college as shortsighted and an error of judgment on the part of the Government. The decision has generated a level of resentment and anti-Government feeling not often experienced in the country. It is a blow to what is regarded as a fundamental bastion of Irish education, not just an institution for training of teachers but a place where our culture and language are nurtured, loved and passed on to successive generations of educators. The Gaelic ethos is tied up with the training of teachers there and only an unconcerned and ill informed Government would be unaware of this. To change Carysfort to an RTC or some other educational arrangement without an element of teacher training being present simply means that you cannot maintain the Irish ethos. The value of that ethos is inestimable and to value it at £1 million per year is to treat our heritage as a worthless asset to be discarded at will. That evaluation is not acceptable to this side of the House.
The staff in Carysfort always insisted on excellence of standards in Irish and in all things Irish. The State has a policy on the Irish language. The facility, staff and capacity exist for the protection of the Irish language and that policy in Carysfort, and not to use those assets would be an act of gross irresponsibility by the Coalition Government. There is a proud record of proficiency in the Irish language, speaking and teaching, in Carysfort which, when it is destroyed by the Government, cannot be restored or easily replaced. The closedown syndrome which permeates the mind of the Government is difficult to understand. We have seen examples of it over the past few years in regard to Irish Shipping, the closing of hospitals, educational colleges and factories. This beleagured Government are seeking to justify their failed fiscal policies by doing hard, brutal and insensitive things. People do not want their educational system sacrificed for the sake of a temporary financial expedient.
Recession is not the time to skimp on education and teacher training. We should be building on our assets as an investment for the future and planning to improve our pupil-teacher ratio. We should give lessons in hope, not despair, to our people. When one considers that at Question Time today the Minister stated that it would take an extra 3,000 primary teachers to achieve the same pupil-teacher ratio which exists in the Six Counties, it is obvious that he has failed in his commitment to deliver on an improvement in the ratio. By closing Carysfort, the Minister is ensuring that we will never again be able to improve on the ratio.
There was no response in the Minister's contribution this evening and I took careful note of what he said which was that he could devise uses for Carysfort for the future which would give satisfaction to the professional staff there and benefits to our educational system. The only satisfaction the staff of Carysfort want is an opportunity to continue to do what they know best, the training of teachers for our educational system. The Minister asked for Fianna Fáil submissions as to how that could be achieved. Two years ago the people in Carysfort gave the Minister a submission in that regard, but he did nothing about it. His only response has been to say that it will not continue to serve the people as a teacher training college. I took careful note at 7.30 p.m. of something the Minister said, that only two colleges of education would continue in this country. He stated that some facets of Carysfort could continue. What kind of commitment is that? It was a sweetmouthed response which gave half promises to consider certain things but which gave no commitment to Carysfort. The staff and students at Carysfort must have been further disappointed and distressed by the Minister's speech this evening.
The Minister said he wanted a new and equally important role for that great institution, but the only role which will satisfy us and benefit the people is a reversal of the Government decision to close it. That is what we expected to hear this evening, but the Minister has failed in his commitment to the people in that regard and he has not given any hope that there will be any change in the original decision which the Government took.
There is a Fianna Fáil alternative which has been spelt out in clear, unambiguous terms. We want Carysfort to continue, as our motion says, as a teacher training centre with other items added such as inservice teacher training courses, new curriculum development courses, third level education courses in the humanities, education in psychological training for teachers, computer training and a whole host of other things which we have submitted. Do not look for submissions from us in this regard; we gave them yesterday evening through our spokesperson. The Coalition philosophy seems to be, in this as in so many other things, that our history, traditions and our noidhreacht mean nothing and must be kept in the background. Many people put great store on the ideals and traditions of the past and the Minister, by his decision, is trying to dismantle one of those great traditions.
Our motion sets out our aims clearly and concisely. We want Carysfort to be an integral part of our higher education system with a specific role in teacher training. The Minister's decision was arbitrary and precipitate because he confirmed this evening that there will not be a change of heart. The Minister has tampered with the sensitivities of the living generations of graduates of Carysfort who value the memory of their Alma Mater. He is trampling on the graves of ten generations of former students and teachers of this highly respected college of education.
The Minister's response this evening does not go any way towards satisfying the needs of Carysfort college. There is no point in being mealy-mouthed about what might happen over the next few months. A clear decision has been taken by the Government, and it was reaffirmed by the Minister during the week, that Carysfort would close and could no longer fulfil its role in our educational system as a teacher training college. We reject that out of hand. Carysfort means something special to this side of the House. It stands for something in Fianna Fáil thinking and in the minds of the people. The Minister brings shame on the magnificent and mighty traditions of Carysfort.
We are bringing to the Minister's notice what is being said outside the House, that Carysfort should be allowed to continue as a teacher training centre. We do that in the hope that, even at this late stage, the Minister will recognise the folly of turning his back on a revered tradition in our educational system. We ask him to take note of the generally accepted point of view in regard to Carysfort. Over the past three years no single decision has generated so much heat and resentment from the people. The Minister should reverse the decision and he will have our support in bringing about a reasoned and considered situation whereby Carysfort can fulfil its tradition and continue to serve the people as one of the leading colleges of education.
Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 65.
Tá
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barnes, Monica.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Myra.
- Barry, Peter.
- Begley, Michael.
- Bell, Michael.
- Bermingham, Joe.
- Birmingham, George Martin.
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Carey, Donal.
- Cluskey, Frank.
- Collins, Edward.
- Conlon, John F.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Coogan, Fintan.
- Cooney, Patrick Mark.
- Cosgrave, Liam T.
- Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Creed, Donal.
- Crotty, Kieran.
- Crowley, Frank.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Martin Austin.
- Desmond, Barry.
- Donnellan, John.
- Dowling, Dick.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Glenn, Alice.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Harte, Patrick D.
- Hegarty, Paddy.
- Hussey, Gemma.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kenny, Enda.
- L'Estrange, Gerry.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- McLoughlin, Frank.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Molony, David.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Naughten, Liam.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael.
- (Limerick East)
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Brien, Willie.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Leary, Michael.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- O'Toole, Paddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Predergast, Frank.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Ryan, John.
- Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
- Skelly, Liam.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Níl
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Paudge.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Byrne, Seán.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Conaghan, Hugh.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Daly, Brendan.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Fahey, Francis.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Conaghan, Hugh.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Doherty, Seán
- Fahey, Francis.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Gallagher, Denis.
- Gallagher, Pat Cope.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Harney, Mary.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leonard, Tom.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- McCarthy, Seán.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Gallagher, Denis.
- Gallagher, Pat Cope.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Harney, Mary.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leonard, Tom.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- McCarthy, Seán.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Mac Giolla, Tomás.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P.J.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Noonan, Michael J.
- (Limerick West)
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P.J.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Noonan, Michael J.
- (Limerick West)
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Dea, William.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Edmond.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- Ormonde, Donal.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- Power, Paddy.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Walsh, Seán.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies F. O'Brien and Taylor; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Browne.
Question declared carried.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.