Vol. 365 No. 11
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if, to allay growing public concern and anxiety in regard to these matters, he will make immediate and urgent representations to the British Government arising from the recent statements by the British Attorney General and a Minister at the Northern Ireland Office regarding the continuation of supergrass trials and the strip-searching of prisoners.
16.
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if he believes that any progress has been made in implementing the principle that the Ulster Defence Regiment should operate only when accompanied by the Royal Ulster Constabulary; and if he is aware of any reduction in the number of complaints about the behaviour of the Ulster Defence Regiment in the months since the Hillsborough agreement.
19.
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs the present position with regard to the next meeting of the Anglo-Irish Inter-Governmental Conference; and the progress, if any which has been made by the conference on crucial issues such as the abolition of supergrass trials, the banning of plastic bullets, the curtailment of the existing UDR activities and an end to strip-searching.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1, 16, and 19 together.
It has not been customary, for security reasons, to provide details in advance in relation to the timing and venue of meetings of the conference. As indicated after its meeting on 11 March 1986 the conference will consider at its next meeting further progress reports on cross-Border security co-operation and on the development of relations between the security forces in Northern Ireland and the community; progress reports from the groups of officials set up under Article 8 of the agreement to discuss extradition, the possible harmonisation of areas of the criminal law, and the search for measures to enhance public confidence in the administration of justice; and cross-Border economic and social co-operation, with particular reference to tourism.
At the meeting of the conference on 30 December 1985, I put forward views and proposals designed to give substantial expression to the aim of ensuring public confidence in the administration of justice. A major issue which is of concern to me in this regard is, of course, the use of uncorroborated evidence of dubious supergrass witnesses in criminal trials in Northern Ireland in what appears to be a systematic way. I have expressed on a number of occasions my concern at the use of uncorroborated, or poorly supported, evidence in the Northern Ireland courts. A sub-group of the conference which was established last January has initiated detailed consideration of measures which would enhance public confidence in the administration of justice. This work is being actively pursued at the present time and, as earlier indicated, it is the intention to make a progress report to the next meeting of the conference.
I have already made known my views on the remarks made by the British Attorney General in the House of Commons on 19 March 1986. I have pointed out that the issue in Northern Ireland is not the admissibility of uncorroborated evidence in law, but rather that the perception has developed in recent years of a system involving large numbers of defendants charged on the evidence of dubious supergrass witnesses in trials which are presided over by a single judge acting without a jury.
At each of its meetings the conference has held a detailed exchange of views on a variety of matters affecting relations between the minority community and the security forces in Northern Ireland. It is considering ways in which these relations can be improved.
In regard to the use of plastic bullets, the British authorities are already aware of my views. I believe there is a clear need to reduce the risk to human life caused by the use of plastic bullets and, if this cannot be done, alternative measures of crowd control should be found.
At its meeting on 11 December 1985 the conference agreed that the RUC and the armed forces must not only discharge their duty evenhandedly and with equal respect for the Unionist and Nationalist identities and traditions but be seen by both communities to do so. It also considered the steps which were being taken progressively in applying the principle that the armed forces, including the UDR, operate only in support of the civil power with the particular objective of ensuring as rapidly as possible that, save in the most exceptional circumstances, there is a police presence in all operations which involve direct contact with the community.
Since then I have informed myself at regular intervals of the implementation of this principle. Evidence available to me indicates that progress is being made. Full implementation of this policy will provide the minority with a significant safeguard in its dealings with the security forces, including the UDR. As regards the number of complaints made to the authorities about UDR behaviour since the agreement was signed, I am not in a position to comment on whether there has been a reduction as statistics in this regard are not available. I believe, however, that there will be less cause for complaint once the policy of accompaniment has been fully implemented.
The conference has also considered a number of policy issues relating to prisons. I have made known to the British side my views on the subject of strip-searching at Armagh Prison and my belief that this practice should be reduced in the new prison at Maghaberry to an absolute minimum compatible with security requirements.
The Minister has dealt with a number of matters in his reply but I wish to focus on two issues and to ask the Minister specifically about them. I am concerned in my question about supergrass trials and the strip-searching of prisoners. Apart altogether from any attempt to build confidence in the system of administration of justice in Northern Ireland, will the Minister accept that both these practices are undesirable in themselves? For instance, will he not agree that the system of supergrass trials is an affront to our whole parliamentary democratic way of life and the proper principles of the administration of the system of justice? In that connection is he not concerned that the British Government apparently are not prepared to indicate that these type of trials will be terminated?
With regard to strip-searching, will he not agree this is something that is unacceptable in itself, apart altogether from any implications it may have in inspiring or not inspiring confidence in the system of justice, and that it is not something over which a humane or humanitarian administration can stand? Will he not indicate clearly to the House that he condemns both these practices, the supergrass trials and strip-searching, and that he will do everything in his power to have both of them discontinued?
I have no difficulty in agreeing with virtually everything the Deputy said. I indicated my attitude to the supergrass trials and strip-searching long before the Anglo-Irish Agreement was signed and the conference established. I presume that, when the Deputy spoke about the British Government giving no indication with regard to supergrass trials, he was referring to the reply given by the British Attorney General in the House of Commons some months ago. What he indicated there was that there is a belief that there is a difference is the system of law in the North of Ireland and in Britain and that objections were taken to this and he indicated this was not so and that the same law applies. My point when I drew attention to supergrass trials was the large number of defendants who appear before a single judge without a jury — even though that judge may go through the process of advising himself that he must be careful of the evidence — the dubious character of some of these supergrass witnesses, which was referred to by a number of justices on a number of occasions, and also the fact that it takes so long to process the whole system of trial. Many of the cases have not been completed after three or four years and that is very undesirable in a system of law.
Is the Minister embarrassed by the fact that having given a clear impression in this House after the December meeting of the Anglo-Irish Inter-Governmental Conference that in future UDR patrols would be accompanies by the RUC, thus obviating the need for direct public contact, the following month an unaccompanied UDR patrol opened fire on civilians near Cookstown in County Tyrone? Is the Minister aware that the Chief Constable of the RUC has made it clear that UDR patrols will not be accompanied at all times by the RUC? What does he propose to do about this?
I said at the time that it would be the objective of the conference to ensure that confidence in the security forces in the North of Ireland would be built up by having security forces — UDR or regular British Army — accompanied by RUC police officers when dealing with the public. Progress is being made in this regard. Obviously there is a logistical problem concerning the number of people available. It has been very evident during the past few months that the RUC have been stretched in other matters. I am satisfied that progress is being made and will continue to be made, especially in the most sensitive areas, to ensure that where the security forces are dealing with members of the public the point of contact will be an RUC person.
Does the Minister accept that UDR patrols are in operation without the RUC and causing quite a lot of harassment to the Nationalist population?
I accept that this is so. It will take some time to achieve and many considerations must be taken into account. Logistics are involved. I accept that there are UDR patrols operating without being accompanied by RUC men when dealing with the public. I am quite willing to accept that they are harassing some of the Nationalist community and I have had some complaints. Where I have received specific complaints with details of locations, times and named people or some possibility of identification, I have brought them to the attention of the British authorities.
Can the Minister confirm this morning's report in The Irish Times that there will be a meeting of the Inter-Governmental Conference within the next few days? If so, can the Minister say if the conference will deal with the recent spate of attacks on homes, churches and schools in the Nationalist area? Will the Minister state generally when action can be expected on some of the major grievances of the Nationalist population?
I said in my original reply that it has not been customary for security reasons to provide details in advance in relation to the timing and venue of the meetings of the conference. I am extremely concerned about the sectarian attacks on some members of the Nationalist community in the North of Ireland and at the "bully boy" terrorist attacks on the homes of some RUC men who are doing their job in protecting Nationalist areas. My concern about those has been conveyed to the authorities. Anything we can do politically to bring about a diminution of these attacks will be done. In the meantime the security forces in the North of Ireland must ensure that the RUC officers whose homes are being attacked and Nationalist churches and play schools which are also being attacked are protected and the attacks stopped.
Is the Minister aware of the growing perception that the Inter-Governmental Conference is achieving very little, that the Deputy Leader of the SDLP has spoken of growing impatience, while the Deputy Leader of the DUP has called the conference an impotent structure? Would the Minister care to comment?
I listened very carefully to what was said by the Deputy Leader of the SDLP on radio on Sunday and I could not argue with anything he said in that regard. He indicated that Nationalists welcome the Anglo-Irish Agreement and welcome the fact that the secretariat has been established in Belfast and that the conference is meeting regularly. There are indications that work is being done in areas of concern to the Nationalist community but obviously he would like to see, as I would, tangible, positive results. There are areas which have been a cause of concern to Nationalists in the North of Ireland not for the past five months or 50 months or five years but for over 50 years and these problems cannot be resolved quickly or easily. They need some discussion. He, as I, would wish to see that discussion takes place as quickly as possible. Deputy Collins says that the Deputy Leader of the DUP has said that the conference is impotent. His rhetoric and the encouragement I believe he gives to men of violence would not lead one to believe that he considers it unimportant or impotent in any regard.
