It is proposed to take item No. 21. By agreement, and not withstanding the Order of the House of 29 April 1986, the proceedings on Vote 4 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 11.30 a.m. today and the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach shall be called on to conclude not later than 11.25 a.m. today. Also by agreement Votes 1, 2 and 7 to 19 shall be debated together and the Minister for Finance shall be called on to conclude not later than 3.45 p.m. today and the questions necessary to bring the proceedings on these Votes to a conclusion shall be put forthwith and successively at 5 p.m. today. Also by agreement, if a division is challenged on any of these Estimates today, the taking of such division shall be postponed until 8.30 p.m. next Wednesday, 7 May 1986.
Order of Business.
Are the arrangements agreed?
The list of Votes is more far-reaching than we had anticipated. My understanding was that we would have the Estimates for Public Services as we have had up to now, but a number of areas, for example, Vote 9, Office of the Revenue Commissioners, Vote 19, Farm Classification Office which I presume is a new one, and the Office of the Minister for Finance, are included here. Will the Taoiseach elaborate a little more on the background to the Estimates and how different they are from the Estimates for Public Services which have been taken in previous years? This one is more wide-ranging than we had anticipated.
I do not understand the Deputy's query. This is the Estimates for Public Services finance group. They are being taken together, I understand by agreement.
Is it anticipated that we will have an opportunity to debate more detailed aspects of the Estimates at some later stage?
No, they will be taken today.
That is not our understanding of the position. Our understanding was that today we would take the Estimates for the Central Statistics Office and for the Department of the Public Service. There is a serious misunderstanding here which had better be resolved.
That was never in doubt. When I first raised the matter it was in regard to the finance Estimates. I asked a few weeks ago if one could be taken on the nod. It was the one in relation to farm taxation. That was not agreed. We then agreed to take all the financial Estimates together today. There was no question of the Estimate for the Department of the Public Service being taken. That was never discussed and never in doubt. What may be misleading the Deputy is that we are taking the Estimates for Public Services. That is all the Estimates. But out of that we are taking the finance group and that was agreed by the Whips and myself last week. There may be some misunderstanding. I am not disputing that. It was never the case that we were taking the Public Service Estimates; it was the finance Estimates.
In this case there has been a very definite misunderstanding. My understanding was that we were dealing with the Department of the Public Service. I would also recall Vote 19 to which the Minister referred. It is true that the Minister asked for that on the nod. I made it clear that, from our point of view, this was a very major change and would require considerable time to debate. Certainly it was not my understanding that it would have been included along with some of the other items under the vast wide-ranging Estimates we have here this morning. That presents us on this side of the House with difficulties.
I am sorry the Deputy misunderstood the situation.
Just picking on one, the Office of Public Works, that is normally an Estimate that requires considerable discussion. There is obviously a very serious misunderstanding. I am not criticising or blaming anybody. We were taken totally unaware by this.
They have been taken in this way in each of the past three years.
There are major debates in here which we just cannot take in this way.
Deputy McEllistrim was aware that the Estimate was being taken today. He discussed it with me yesterday.
Is there agreement?
No.
Will I put the question?
I do not want to divide the House on it. I am quite certain the Chief Whip of the Government party thought there was agreement. We thought there was agreement. There is just a serious misunderstanding.
Have we got agreement?
Could we go on with the vote for the Central Statistics Office and then the Whips can meet and talk about the others in the meantime? Could the Chair just order Vote No. 4 for the moment?
Will we go on with Vote No. 4 on the basis that it will be concluded by 11.30? Is that agreed?
Yes, and we will see where we go from there.
That is the only part of the arrangement that we seem to have agreement on at the moment. Hopefully by 11.30 we will have agreement on the rest.
If there is a misunderstanding I want to do anything I can to help in that regard. But I want to make it quite clear that there was never any doubt about exactly what we were doing today. I hope we will come to an agreement to take these Estimates. There is a large number of Estimates to be taken and we want to make progress on them and I ask the Opposition to co-operate in this area.
I accept that from the point of view of the Minister of State there was never any doubt. But quite sincerely, on my part, I had no doubt that there was some other arrangement.
This is how world wars break out.
Let us leave it. As I understand it we have agreement on one thing and possibly two more, that Vote No. 4 will commence now and will finish, in accordance with the first paragraph read out, at 11.25 and if a division is challenged it will be postponed until next Wednesday. Is that agreed?
On the Order of Business, I would ask the Taoiseach——
Deputy Haughey, if this is strictly on the Order of Business, we are confined to the Order of Business and I have already so ruled this morning on other matters.
This morning?
I have refused to allow something to be taken today because it did not comply with the Order of the House yesterday.
That is the Government being recalcitrant, mischievous or irresponsible in moving their little pawns around on the chess board. But that has nothing to do with us.
It is just Deputy Haughey missing the boat.
The Government have put out a statement about the teachers' pay dispute.
I cannot allow it on the Order of Business and I do not want any misunderstanding about it.
I am not raising it as an issue.
That is not in order. I am ruling it out of order.
I want to ask the Taoiseach if he would in some way make a statement to the House today——
I am not allowing that. I am sorry.
On what basis? Can I not ask the Taoiseach on the Order of Business to make a statement today?
The Order of Business is strictly confined to Estimates and an Order of the House was made to that effect yesterday and I have it here.
I have not been allowed to make my statement.
The Taoiseach made a statement misleading the nation.
We will object to it. In fact you can shuffle along with the Government. I do not think anybody would notice.
This is confined to Vote No. 4.
A Cheann Comhairle, I want to register a protest that there is a most serious issue facing the country today and the Chair will not even permit me to ask the Taoiseach will he make a statement about it.
An Order of the House was made yesterday that the Dáil would sit today and that business would be confined to Estimates.
The Chair has just put before us an Order of this House. He has just asked the House to agree to an Order of Business. Therefore, we are entitled to discuss the Order of Business and on the Order of Business, in accordance with precedent, I am asking the Chair——
I have ruled it out of order.
——will the Taoiseach make a statement on the issue of the teachers' pay dispute?
I am sorry. I cannot allow it in view of the Order of the House that was made yesterday. If an Order of the House was never made yesterday it would still not be in order. It is manifestly out of order.
Why did we bother discussing the Order of Business this morning if we had an Order of the House yesterday?
We discussed the Order of Business today in so far as arrangements were necessary for the taking of it or were proposed for the taking of it, and a guillotine was on.
On a point of order, you have just said to me that we cannot discuss the Order of Business because of some order that was made yesterday. Nevertheless, in spite of that, we have spent quite some time discussing the Order of Business. A Cheann Comhairle, I must suggest to you that you have tied yourself into a ridiculous knot.
We spent some minutes discussing the business that was ordered for today which is an entirely different thing.
A Cheann Comhairle, would you not let the Taoiseach explain why he misled the nation in a public television transmission? He should be allowed to give some explanation.
The Minister to move Vote No. 4.