Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 Jun 1986

Vol. 368 No. 5

Death of Member. - Order of Business.

The Taoiseach:

It is proposed to take business in the following order: Nos. 2, 3, 9, 10 and 30. Private Members' Business shall be No. 49, Motion 70.

By agreement, the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. today and not later than 12.30 a.m. tomorrow and Business shall be interrupted at 12 midnight tonight. Also by agreement, Nos. 9 and 10 shall be taken without debate.

Also by agreement, the proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 30 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 12 midnight and the Minister for Justice shall be called on to conclude not later than 11.40 p.m. tonight.

Also by agreement, Private Members' Business shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. today.

An Ceann Comhairle:

Are the arrangements for taking today's business agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Haughey:

On the Order of Business, last Friday the Government made an important statement of legislative intent with regard to marriage, separation and divorce which would involve legislation to give effect to major changes——

An Ceann Comhairle:

I do not think that arises on the Order of Business.

Mr. Haughey:

I am afraid it does. It is dealing with legislation promised by the Government and by the Chair's frequent rulings here I am entitled to ask about legislation that has been promised.

Tomás Mac Giolla:

It cannot be brought in until we get a "Yes" vote.

Mr. Lenihan:

The new Taoiseach.

Mr. Haughey:

I am sorry I have to tell the Deputy but all of it can be brought in no matter what happens on Thursday. In fact, many of us would like to see it brought in before a referendum was held.

Miss Flaherty:

That is a new line.

Mr. Wilson:

It is not. Let the Deputy read my speech.

An Ceann Comhairle:

Let us have order from both sides of the House. The ruling of the Chair has been that if legislation is promised, a question can be asked as to when it will be brought in but the promise could not be more than a conditional promise.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle:

It is obvious that in certain eventualities the promised legislation would be brought in——

Miss Flaherty:

Where is democracy?

Minister for Health (Mr. B. Desmond):

How is the Deputy going to vote?

Mr. Haughey:

I find the Chair's ruling very surprising. I would not like to take it that you are telling this House that the Government's promises to bring in legislation are not to be taken seriously. Is that the effect of your ruling?

An Ceann Comhairle:

I am saying that in certain eventualities if the Government proposed to bring in legislation next week it would not be in order. It would be unconstitutional in certain eventualities——

Mr. Haughey:

I am very sorry to have to disagree with you, Sir, but a lot of the legislation promised does not have any constitutional implications. We have a White Paper from the Minister for Justice——

An Ceann Comhairle:

Perhaps we could hear the Deputy's question?

Mr. Haughey:

The Government last Friday made an important statement of legislative intent with regard to marriage, separation and divorce which involves legislation to give effect to major changes in adoption, civil liability, the courts, family law, nullity, pension rights and succession rights. The Government promised to amend at least 18 Acts of the Oireachtas, legislation which, I think the Taoiseach will agree, is very complex. I would like to ask the Taoiseach if the drafting of this legislation has commenced, and if he would agree that in normal circumstances a programme of comprehensive legislation of that kind would take anything from five to ten years to put through this House?

Mr. B. Desmond:

It would if Fianna Fáil were in office.

The Taoiseach:

That may be the case if Fianna Fáil were in office but let me take the matters raised by the Deputy seriatim. The Government made an expanded statement of their intentions last week which contained two new elements. Those new elements related to the action which will be taken legislatively in respect of pensions in connection with, in relation to and arising from divorce legislation and the action that will be taken with regard to social welfare arising directly from the initiation of divorce legislation. The only two matters in the Government's statement not previously announced in earlier Government statements, although foreshadowed in individual speeches, were these two elements which cannot be introduced in this House unless the people vote in favour of what is proposed. There are other elements in the earlier statement which fall into the same category, that is, the divorce legislation itself and everything connected with it, and there is also the doubt that unless we make this constitutional change it would be constitutionally impossible to transfer the property of the family home from a spouse to a dependent spouse unless we had the protection of the constitutional change now proposed.

The Deputy will be aware — although not everything members of his party have said would indicate equal awareness — that there is no right of property in the family home at present unless the dependent spouse has paid for the purchase of the family home. The proposal in the property orders being made involving a transfer of the family home will be authorised under the constitutional change we propose, but there is a doubt as to whether it could be effective without breach of private property rights unless people vote yes in the referendum, which I naturally hope they will do. The Deputy, like anybody else, I presume would like to see these changes effected.

Mr. Haughey:

My own view is that I would like the people to decide this matter in a very calm, collected and non-political way. I am sure the Taoiseach would agree that we would like as full a turnout as possible on Thursday——

The Taoiseach:

Indeed.

Mr. Haughey:

——so that the issue can be decided on the broadest possible democratic basis.

The Taoiseach:

Hear, hear.

Mr. Haughey:

The Taoiseach and I agree on that because, whatever else we are, we are both parliamentary democratic people.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Chair feels it would be inappropriate to have what I might call a referendum meeting now.

Mr. Haughey:

I accept that ruling.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle:

Deputies should not speak when they are outside the barriers of the House.

Mr. Haughey:

Charming though she may be. I want a further point of clarification and then I am quite prepared to leave the matter to the people to decide, and I am sure they will take the wise decision. I am taking the two White Papers together. Would the Taoiseach agree that, in the unlikely event of the referendum delivering a yes verdict on Thursday, the position will then be that divorce will become a reality in the Constitution and that all these constitutional protections promised by the Government may take anything from five to ten years to put into place, if ever.

The Taoiseach:

The Deputy used the words "constitutional protections".

(Interruptions.)

Mr. B. Desmond:

The Deputy is coming late into the debate.

Mr. Haughey:

I spoke at the beginning of the debate.

An Ceann Comhairle:

Order, please.

Mr. B. Desmond:

The Deputy should have the courage to say how he is going to vote.

The Taoiseach:

Do not talk about courage to that crowd. You are wasting your time.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach:

In answer to the Deputy, I do not understand——

An Ceann Comhairle:

It is very unwise to pursue this line, and that is becoming more apparent.

Mr. Haughey:

On a point of order, would you guide me as to whether the Taoiseach is entitled to refer to the Opposition as "that crowd".

The Taoiseach:

Sometimes you seem rather a large crowd, larger than we would like to see.

Mr. N. Treacy:

And getting larger.

The Taoiseach:

You are smaller than when you came in.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Reynolds:

Hold an election next week and the Government will find out——

The Taoiseach:

I thought I might induce that response. I am not clear on the Deputy's references to constitutional protections which it is intended to bring in other than the referendum. The only constitutional protection we can bring in is that which the people can bring in by saying yes in the referendum thereby making certain that the legislation proposed in respect of women's rights, and the family home deriving from her work as a wife and mother in the home can without doubt give her an entitlement to the family home, which at present she does not have.

For the rest, the first statement issued by the Government related to matters a number of which are not dependent on the passing of the referendum and which involved changes in the law of marriage and separation, some of them unconnected with the question of divorce. In the interests of the protection of marriage, the Government will pursue these matters regardless of the outcome of the referendum. The Deputy's suggestion that it will take five to ten years to introduce this legislation I find astonishing. The clear statement made by the Government of their intentions goes some distance towards providing the shape of the heads of the appropriate Bill. The necessary legislation if the referendum is passed, or if it is not, will be prepared by the Government and presented to this House in the next session.

I hope, and it is the hope of the majority on this side of the House and of some Members on the other side of the House, that the people will say yes and enable us to extend the constitutional protection in the manner I have indicated and to deal with the problems which at present give rise to difficulties and anomalies in our legal system, including the criminal law system of bigamy which can only be overcome if the people say yes in the referendum.

An Ceann Comhairle:

I am calling item No. 2.

Mr. Skelly:

I should like to raise on the Adjournment my Private Notice Question on the serious public disquiet with the many unanswered questions surrounding the death of Fr. Niall Molloy.

An Ceann Comhairle:

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. D. Andrews:

Until what time is the House sitting?

An Ceann Comhairle:

12.30 a.m.

Mr. D. Andrews:

In those circumstances I will not ask for a Question on the Adjournment but it is past the bedtime of most Deputies, but I will put down a market for tomorrow; so, be prepared.