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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Nov 1986

Vol. 369 No. 9

Dublin Metropolitan Streets Commission (No. 2) Bill, 1986 [ Seanad ]: Committee Stage.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 4, subsection (2), line 18, after "order", to insert "and that such alteration of the boundary of the Metropolitan Central Area shall have the consent of the relevant local authority or local authorities.

If this amendment is accepted subsection (2) will read that the Minister may by order alter the boundary of the metropolitan central area so as to include therein immediately adjoining land or to exclude therefrom land forming part thereof and, where the Minister makes an order under this subsection, for so long as the order remains in force the First Schedule to this Act shall have effect subject to the terms of the order and that such alteration of the boundary of the metropolitan central area shall have the consent of the relevant local authority or local authorities.

We on this side of the House and other Members in the House have proven that this legislation is a cosmetic exercise by the Minister. In the Schedule to the Bill the Minister names a series of streets from Cavendish Row, Parnell Street and Parnell Square to Grafton Street. He set a life span of three years for the commission. As the Minister has a voting majority and was able to force through Second Stage, it is likely he will do the same on the remaining Stages. We are anxious that the effects of the Dublin Metropolitan Streets Commission (No. 2) Bill be limited to the streets as laid out in the Schedule and that if the Minister is going to take any further undemocratic powers he would go at least to the relevant local authority, Dublin Corporation, so that they would have the power to decide as to whether they are agreeable to the Minister's extension of the areas to be covered by this commission. We feel that the powers the Minister is taking on in subsection (2) are far too embracing.

I cannot see that there is a need for the amendment. I have made it clear that the area defined in the Schedule is the area that will be administered by the Dublin Metropolitan Streets Commission. At this stage it is not envisaged that there will be any extension to that area. The inclusion of the subsection which the amendment seeks to modify is for the purpose of providing that, if at any time during the lifetime of the commission it becomes apparent that there is a demand for an extension of the boundary of the commission's functional area or a reduction, which would have the obvious implication that the area being omitted would automatically return to the care and maintenance of the local authority, the Minister will have the power to make an order making that modification. However, that order will have to come before the House. The Bill is being enacted by the Houses of the Oireachtas to set up the commission and there is provision in subsection (4) for the Houses to annul any order made by the Minister. Considering the emphasis I placed in the course of the Second Stage debate on the fact that the area is considered to be one of special importance and significance requiring national consideration, it is reasonable to suggest that if the administrative area of the commission is to be added to or taken from, it should be done by the national Parliament.

At the outset the Minister said he did not have any intention of altering the boundaries as laid out in the Schedule but later he said that if there is demand for an extension or reduction — we would all welcome a reduction — it would be a matter for the Oireachtas. I accept that the centre of the capital city is a matter of national importance but it is also a matter of great importance to the democratically elected members of Dublin Corporation who have a statutory obligation to care for and deal with planning and other matters which concern that area. Surely any alteration of the boundary should have the consent of the relevant local authority.

It is more relevant to have that consent than having the consent of the Houses of the Oireachtas. I do not mean any disrespect to the Members of the Oireachtas. The centre of our capital city may be of importance to the citizens of the land but it is of greater importance to the people of Dublin and the members of Dublin Corporation. It is more relevant to get the consent of the city authority than to get it from a Member who may be from Donegal, Cork, Waterford or some other corner of the land. The Minister told us he does not have any intention of extending the boundary and I suggest that on Report Stage he should include a provision to the effect that he may alter the boundary by reduction. That would represent a major step forward.

Was it the Deputy's father who used the expression that time brought greater enlightenment? I have to remind the House, and Deputy Burke, of the Urban Development Areas Bill, 1982, which was introduced by him when he was Minister for the Environment. Section 2 of that Bill provided for the establishment of a Custom House Dock development area and a Dublin walled city development area. Subsection (3) of that section allowed the Minister to add to or take from the areas to be administered by those authorities. At that time the Minister did not see the need to consult with or have the agreement of the local authority involved which, coincidentally, happen to be the same local authority involved here, Dublin Corporation. That Bill did not provide that the Houses of the Oireachtas would have the right to vary any order made by the Minister if, subsequent to the passing of the Bill, he chose to alter the boundaries of the Dublin walled city development area.

I find it difficult to follow the Deputy's line of argument which is so materially different from what he advocated when he was Minister in 1982. In the debate on the Urban Renewal Bill on 28 May last — that Bill established the Custom House Dock Authority — the Deputy moved an amendment, as reported at column 319, volume 367 of the Official Report which, if accepted, would have provided for the establishment of a body to be known as the Dublin walled city development authority and would have affected part of the area administered by Dublin Corporation. That amendment did not provide for any consultation with Dublin Corporation in the event of boundary changes.

Will the Deputy explain to the House why he considers such a provision is necessary in this case when it was not considered necessary in an analogous case last May and when the right of the House to be consulted on the variation of the boundaries of a development area was not considered necessary by him when he introduced a Bill of this nature in 1982?

I support the amendment tabled by Deputy Burke and I should like to make some comments on it before I move an amendment in my name. Whatever Deputy Burke did in 1981 or 1982 or at any other time, the fact is that the amendment before us is one which any Minister should accept as most reasonable. The Bill is excluding part of the city from the powers of the local authority. We do not want the Minister to extend that in any way he wishes, on either side north or south, east or west, without referring in any way to the local authority. The Minister pointed out, that in 1981 or 1982 the then Minister did not see any need for such powers. Of course, neither the Minister nor the Department ever see any need for consultation with local authorities when they are putting commissions in charge, but in the interests of democracy the Minister should accept the strength of the argument for such consultation before attempting to expand the boundary. The extention proposed here is very large by any standard. It is taking the whole heart of the city and making it very difficult for the local authority to administer the remainder because they are deprived of any say or responsibility for what will happen in the centre of the city. Under this section the Minister wants to take the power at any time to extend the commission's control over the inner city. I support Deputy Burke's amendment, which seems to me to be eminently logical and reasonable.

Earlier when speaking on the Bill the Minister referred to the 1982 legislation introduced by me on behalf of Fianna Fáil for the Custom House docks site and in relation to the Dublin walled city authority. I feel very strongly about both areas and I would remind the Minister that the Taoiseach, then the Leader of the Opposition, spent a considerable time touring the country attacking the proposal to introduce measures to revitalise the centre of Dublin. From March to November 1982, Deputy FitzGerald and his front bench members attacked the Gregory deal. Deputy FitzGerald then submitted to Deputy Gregory a list of his priorities for the inner city. Not believing the then Leader of the Opposition, Deputy Gregory supported the Fianna Fáil administration plan. That was at a time when a general election was imminent.

Approaching another general election now, the Government are showing great concern for Dublin inner city. It is a bit late in the day for that. Thank heaven Dublin Corporation members have shown a very enlightened approach to the needs of the centre city. The measures they have been taking were outlined in a speech by Deputy Ahern, the Lord Mayor, on Second Stage of this Bill. All the items provided for in this Bill are taken from a schedule of work laid down by the corporation, much of which is already under way, including pedestrian ways and other such projects.

If we are to debate the Bill in a constructive way we should look at all the provisions in it rather than considering who did what, where, why and when. The Minister was reasonable when he said it is not his intention to extend the area covered by the First Schedule. He made it clear that the area scheduled as the central area would not be extended. I am asking the Minister to clarify that in the legislation. He should take to himself the power to reduce the area when it has been improved to the standard required. If he wants the power to extend the area, he should at least give the elected members of the corporation the ability either to agree or to disagree with any proposed extension.

We have heard quite a lot from the Minister and the Government about the devolution of power to local authorities. We had it in a debate last week when we had a bit of a charade about devolving powers in regard to local authority rents, when city and county managers were given powers to increase rents without involving the democratically elected members. In a press release on 14 August that was described as "a devolution of powers to local authorities". During the local elections campaign of 1985 much play was made of the desirability of devolving powers to local authorities. Indeed we had the postponement of those elections from 1984 to 1985 on the basis that the Government wanted to introduce legislation to give extra powers to the local authorities. Of course, those powers were never given. The Minister has admitted that he does not want to extend the area included in the First Schedule. Therefore, I ask him to accept the amendment providing for the consent of Dublin Corporation for any extension.

Deputy Burke has not addressed the question I posed as to why his attitude is now different regarding a virtual veto power to the local authorities in this instance: he did not see the need for such a power in the Urban Development Bill, 1982, or indeed when he proposed amendments to set up a development authority for the walled city area. It is interesting to note that as late as May this year the Deputy did not see a need for such a provision. Reference was made to the opposition to the 1982 Bill. That opposition was based quite simply on the fact that the Bill was providing for two authorities and it gave to the Minister of the day the absolute power to establish any authority in any area when and where he chose and for as long as he chose. At the time it was felt that would give too wide a power to the Minister. Deputy Burke agreed with that last May when he indicated the Minister should have power to establish a myriad of development authorities wherever a need for them arose.

We took a different view, that in each instance of a single function authority being established it should be done by a special piece of legislation in which the specific purpose of the proposed authority should be set out, its functions, powers and life span, and that if the Government of the day envisaged a need for doing such a thing the Government should be prepared to commit Exchequer funds to it. All of those matters are provided for in this Bill. In the Bill which I referred to earlier, these things were not provided for. There was to be no life span, no defined area of responsibility, no definition of when or in what part of the country the Minister might establish an authority from time to time, and no provision whatsoever for Exchequer funds to be made available.

The approach here is fundamentally different. It is that, if a move like this is being taken, it should be done by a specific power of the Oireachtas, that the Oireachtas should have explained to it the reasons the Executive seek to take such a decision, that there should be a limited time span given to the activities of the commission after which when the work is satisfactorily completed, the area would be returned to the care and maintenance of the relevant local authority. That is what is being provided for in the Bill now before the House.

I take the opportunity to reiterate my opinion that I doubt it will be found necessary to change the boundaries which are set out in the Schedule to the Bill. Certainly, as things stand, I have no intention of seeing those boundaries changed. I would have to confess, perhaps with a slight sense of irony, that there seems to be a growing Munster interest in the establishment of this commission. The House will remember the lengthy contribution by Deputy Lyons last week. I notice that the political correspondent of a newspaper published in Deputy Lyons' county complained strongly about the condition of the street running from O'Connell Bridge to Butt Bridge. He suggested that a test of the success of the commission would be how well that street was improved and to what extent it was found possible to remove the standing points for CIE buses in the street. In fact, if you examine the Schedule to the Bill, only a little less than half of that street is being included and yet already the suggestion has been made that a test of the commission and of my bona fides would be how well the commission operated in bringing about a material change and improvement in the entire length of that street.

It is probably unrealistic not to accept that from time to time people will make reference to areas on the periphery of the statutorily defined boundaries of the commission and expect that the commission should be involved in improvement schemes for those areas. I would not envisage that that type of observation ought to lead to an extension of the commission's functional area. The area essentially is the spine of the central streets, with the streets which are put onto that spine being included, normally for a distance of about 50 to 75 yards. Part of the reason for containing the commission's area to that narrow strip was to concentrate their minds on the central area and invite them to devote all their time and resources to improving that central area. Obviously, the wider the boundaries are extended the more attention will have to be given to a larger area and consequently, perhaps, the less successful over the overall area would be the activities of the commission.

The provision as it is defined in section 2 is quite a normal one in legislation of this type. I do not want to be contentious, but I have to say that it goes further than the Urban Development Areas Bill did in 1982, through the provision in subsection (4) allowing the Houses of the Oireachtas to pass a resolution annulling any modifying order which might be made by the Minister. A provision similar to that was not included in the 1982 Bill. It is reasonable, while the commission are being established by virtue of the enactment of this Bill by the House and the administrative area of the commission is set out in the Schedule to this Bill which one would hope would be adopted by this House, that any modification of the area being proposed by the Minister would be subject to the power to annul such an order by the Houses that established the commission in the first place.

I do not want to labour the point. We have 21 amendments here and I shall not continue the debate on this amendment. However, it is significant that the Minister, every time that he contributed, emphasised that it is not his desire or his intention to extend the boundaries of the commission. Therefore, it is quite reasonable on this side of the House to ask, if he feels so strongly about not increasing the metropolitan area that, on Report Stage, he alter the Bill to allow him to take power to reduce the boundaries but, if he is to increase them, to take into account the genuine rights and consent of Dublin Corporation members in view of his party's and his Government's commitment to the whole area of devolution of powers. Obviously, I will not succeed in changing the Minister's mind on this. I thank Deputy Mac Giolla for his support. The merits of the case are quite obvious.

Is the amendment withdrawn?

I am putting the question: "That amendment No. 1 in the name of Deputy R. Burke be made."

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 4, to delete lines 24 to 30 and substitute the following:

"(4) Whenever an order is proposed to be made under this section, a draft of the order shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and the order shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each such House".

The section says that where the Minister makes such an order to extend the boundaries of the Metropolitan Streets Commission area, such order made under this section is to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and the section goes on to say that if a resolution is passed within the next seven days annulling the order, then such order shall be annulled accordingly. In other words, if no such resolution is placed before the Houses annulling the order, the ministerial order goes through without any debate or reference to it. My amendment provides that a ministerial order shall not be made until a resolution approving the draft has been passed, in other words making it a positive proposal.

My experience on a previous occasion was that, certainly as far as The Workers' Party were concerned, where we wished to bring in a resolution annulling a ministerial order we were unable to do so. There was an occasion when such an annullment resolution had to be brought in within 21 days and, due to the procedures of the House, we were unable to bring in such a resolution. It is likely that on this Bill such difficulty might again occur. If the Minister decided in six to eight months' time that he wished to extend the boundaries dealt with by the commission from O'Connell Street down to Capel Street on one side and from O'Connell Street down to Gardiner Street on the other side, if no resolution were brought before the House to annul it, it would go through within seven days.

I am proposing in this amendment that it should be incumbent on the Minister where he places a draft order before the Houses of the Oireachtas to see that a motion is put to the Houses approving the draft order. If it is approved, the ministerial order goes ahead but if not, the order is annulled.

I hate to admit it but the Deputy has me in a somewhat embarrassing position on this matter. I have said in the House previously that, as a general principle, I am in favour of the provision of affirmative orders. I invite the House to consider the matter for a moment. Where the substance of legislation which is to be of a lasting nature is sought to be altered by ministerial order, it is not only fair and reasonable but better parliamentary procedure that this should be done by affirmative order rather than by annulling provisions. In this case, the Bill is to establish a commission which would operate for a period of three years.

I have already indicated in relation to Deputy Burke's amendment that I do not think it likely that the boundaries of the commission will be altered during their lifetime. However, if for some reason a compelling enough case were made for an alteration, because the normal dates of parliamentary sessions could mean that quite a length of time — literally months — could elapse before the House would have the opportunity to address itself to the passing of an affirmative motion, during that time the commission would not be in a position to operate within the proposed area of extension or to shed their responsibilities within the proposed reduction. For that reason subsection (4) was framed in such terms.

I must also confess to being a little surprised to hear the Deputy say that he was unable to enter an annulling resolution to an order in connection with some previous legislation. Without wanting to suck the Chair into the debate, I would have thought that, if a motion to annul an order made under a subsection of a section similar to this was put before the House, the House would have felt itself obliged to address itself to such a motion. Perhaps the Chair might be able to advise the House as to the situation in that case.

The Chair could not judge or assess the feeling of the House at any particular time.

I appreciate the Chair's difficulty in that regard.

I thank the Minister for his valuable general comment to the effect that he generally favours affirmative orders in regard to permanent legislation. Affirmative orders are much more desirable. Under this section an annulling order must be made within seven days. I have not put down an amendment to that provision. The point I am making to the Minister is that, difficult as it is to bring in an annulling order with 21 days — we found it impossible, although perhaps we did not go through the correct procedures — in the case of most legislation of this nature where ministerial orders are referred to, it would be impossible to get an annulling order within seven days, due to the rather cumbersome procedures in this House. The provision is that it must be done within seven sitting days after the order is laid before the House.

Most legislation I have seen going through the House allows for annulment of ministerial orders within 21 days. While the Minister is generally in favour of affirmative orders, he feels that in this case an annulling order is appropriate because it is not permanent legislation but is to last only for three years. In view of the fact that the Minister has cut to one third the time for annulling an order, and since he is not prepared to accept the amendment, I hope at least he will reconsider the provision for seven days, possibly after some consultation with the Ceann Comhairle or with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, if that would be appropriate. In view of the difficulties for Deputies in putting down an annulling order, the Minister may consider that seven days is a rather unreasonable time. I hope he will consider this matter, even if he is not prepared to accept the amendment.

I support the amendment proposed by Deputy Mac Giolla because it is vital to the argument made by the Minister for not accepting the previous amendment which I proposed. He made the strong case that he was giving to the Oireachtas the power to examine any order being put forward with regard to possible extension of the streets laid out in the Schedule. If he is serious about that issue of giving power to the Oireachtas, he must give it in an affirmative way rather than in the manner laid out in section 2 (4). It must be on the basis of a positive decision being taken by this House to extend it.

The Minister argued about the previous legislation introduced in 1982 where the Minister of the day was taking on powers to extend without the confirmation of this House. It is vital that there should be a positive resolution in this House. In arguing against Deputy Mac Giolla's point the Minister said that if the Dáil were in recess and if we suddenly wanted to extend the schedule of streets it would be necessary to go ahead with the work without waiting for the Dáil to come back. According to the Minister's wording, the order may be changed within seven sitting days. Therefore, the Minister is not suggesting that an order be made, say, in July one year and that because the Dáil does not resume until October in the meantime the commission will operate in regard to extended streets in August and September. The power is always there, in the first seven sitting days after the House resumes, to change the order of the Minister. It is reasonable to expect that the commission would not take any action on any extension of their boundaries pending the expiry of those seven sitting days.

It is important for the Minister to follow his principle which he has enunciated on a number of occasions with regard to the desirability of affirmative orders. The whole principle in relation to the original amendment, as outlined by the Minister was that this House would take the decision of extending the streets to be included in the area of responsibility of the commission. If that principle is to be followed — as the Minister enunciated it this morning — it can be done only by accepting the amendment proposed by Deputy Mac Giolla rather than the Minister adhering to what he has written in subsection (4).

I am not sure whether it is a good or bad thing but Deputy Mac Giolla appears to be inviting me to put on the record my views as to the way the amendment of legislation by orders ought to be approached as a general principle. I have a vague suspicion that I did this in a debate at the commencement of this Dáil in relation to changes proposed by the then Leader of the House. I reiterate my belief that affirmative orders constitute the proper way for Parliament to approach power to be given to Ministers for the variation of legislation which does not have time limitations on it. In this case the commission are to have a limited lifetime of three years. For that reason, and another wider one to which I might refer, the insertion of the more normal 21 days in subsections of this type has been reduced to seven days. Seven sitting days normally would indicate in excess of two sitting weeks.

As a general principle the 21 sitting days provision which still obtains in legislation is an anachronism and was of more relevance to a time when life operated at a more leisurely pace. Very often an order might be made which is, shall we say, of public interest at the time it is made but does not hold the interest of the public or of the Members of Parliament to the same extent 21 sitting days later, which is normally seven sitting weeks. Indeed it could be substantially later if the order happened to be made during a lengthy recess. Therefore, whilst 21 days appears to be eminently reasonable it invites Members of the House into a sense of a lack of urgency in regard to addressing its content. Towards the expiry of the 21 sitting day period the reasons which might have invited them to seek a debate will not be as current or as much an issue of the day as they might have been at the time the order was made. After all, an order is virtually an extension of the legislation originally debated in detail throughout its various Stages, including a Stage like this which is considerably detailed. An order made may in some way, vary that legislation. If the House then feels it wants to consider that order in detail it is right it should do so relatively proximate to the time at which the order itself is made.

As a general principle, had I introduced more legislation in this House during this Dáil, generally I would have sought to reduce the 21 sitting day provision. As it happened, because of the portfolio within which I found myself, my debates were more often outside this House than with the Members of the House and the opportunity afforded me to introduce legislation was limited. I addressed this point previously.

Because the commission will have a three year lifetime, on the same principle I enunciated in that regard if an order is made to vary the boundaries of the commission and if the House thinks it is right that that order should be annulled, then it is right that the House should make its views known within a reasonable period after the order seeking to vary the boundaries has been made. Seven sitting days would indicate a period of between two and three weeks after the order had been made. Again, in the context of the limited lifespan envisaged for the commission that is reasonable. It is not unique in legislation. It was included in the Local Government Services (Corporate Bodies) Act, 1971.

The more the Minister speaks about this amendment the more he confirms the need for it. In replying to my original amendment to this section, the Minister made the point that if there was to be any extension under previous legislation it would have to be done by order.

The Minister is making the point here that we have discussed on Second Stage and will have discussed in the House when the Bill is passed the principles behind this Bill so that it is quite all right then to extend any area by order, the general principle of the legislation having been accepted. The only saving point he attempted to use was on the basis that the provisions of this Bill have a limited life of three years and, therefore, any extension of the streets will not matter very much. If it will not matter very much why introduce it in the first place? The Minister makes the point that the whole area being covered by the commission will be very important because it encompasses the heart of our capital city. Therefore, any alteration to it will be equally important and should have, if not the consent of the relevant local authority, at least that of the Oireachtas here in an affirmative way rather than in the manner laid down by the Minister.

The Minister has mentioned 21 days, giving the impression that it was 21 days which was written into Deputy Mac Giolla's amendment. I had to confirm for myself that 21 days was not written into Deputy Mac Giolla's amendment. All he asked was that:

Whenever an order is proposed to be made under this section, a draft of the order shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and the order shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each such House.

The setting of the order of the House is a matter for the Government of the day. Having made an order, if they want, they can bring that order before the House on the very next sitting day, have a debate and have it passed here. It is a very important matter to extend further the yardage within the heart of our city, to take it away from our democratically elected members, giving it to an unelected commission. That case has been made strongly by the Minister in regard to previous legislation proposed in this area. Therefore, the Minister should accept Deputy Mac Giolla's amendment.

I do not want to extend the discussion on this because there are important sections coming up. However, I want to make the point that the boundary of the area which the commission will control constitutes the very nub of the whole Bill. If this commission propose to deal with Westmoreland Street and D'Olier Street only, I do not think anyone would kick up much of a fuss. The area selected, from St. Stephen's Green to Cavendish Row, is the centre and nub of the Bill.

The commission will have charge of that section of the city and they will not have to consult in any way with the local authority. They will have more powers than the local authority ever had and they will have plenty of money. When that is passed by the Dáil — the Minister must agree that there has been considerable opposition to the Bill — the Minister can at any time extend that boundary. It is not as if the ministerial order was on some other section of the Bill so that the Minister could give extra power to the commission; it is the actual extension of the boundary of the area over which this Bill gives the commissioners more control. That is why we regard this ministerial order as having immense effect. The ministerial order can extend the boundary and therefore it should be incumbent on the Minister to see that an affirmative order is passed by the Oireachtas. The Bill which will give the commission power over this section of the city will have to be passed by the Oireachtas. That is the whole purpose of the Bill. By one sweep the Minister can extend that power to cover other sections of the city. Therefore, while it is all right for the Minister to say that it is not as important as permanent legislation because the commission will only be in power for three years, nevertheless the fact that the Minister can extend the area of operation at any time during that three years alters the whole basis of the Bill. For that reason the Minister should adopt the principle with which he generally agrees. That is the purpose of the amendment.

I have no amendment down in regard to the seven days. I made the point that it makes it even more difficult to get an annulment order through in seven sitting days rather than in 21 sitting days. I do not think it does much for the Government's image of reform of the Dáil to say that seven sitting days amounts to over two weeks. A recommendation should be made so that seven sitting days would be just over one week. Taking into account the various procedures that will have to be gone through in uncovering the fact that a ministerial order has been made, in the plethora of European and Oireachtas work that comes through, and getting the order through within the appropriate time as there is a time schedule within which it has to be submitted, one and a half to two weeks is not much time to allow Deputies to do the job. The job should be done by the Minister. If he wants to make an order extending those powers it must be for some special reason, something new which has occurred and which has not been discussed in the course of the debate. If for some reason the Minister must extend the powers over this area it is incumbent on him to come before us and tell us why he wishes to do so. He should put down a motion to affirm his order. I am sure he would get the agreement if he could prove that there was some reason which did not exist or which was not seen when the Bill was being discussed. The Minister would have to prove that he was not doing it to annoy the local authority or because some of the commissioners stated that they would like power over another area. The local authorities would not even be consulted, not to talk of getting their approval, as stated in Deputy Burke's amendment, which would be reasonable. The Minister would not have to consult or even inform the local authority if he was extending the boundaries of the commission.

In an effort to meet the Deputy's point and bearing in mind that Deputy Burke mentioned the number of amendments which have yet to be discussed in relation to this Bill, perhaps the Deputy will accept the general principle of what I have been saying. I would be prepared to give an undertaking to the House that in the unlikely event — I do not think it will happen — that I would want to make an order varying the boundaries of the commission I will take the opportunity to bring it before the House for discussion. I am quite sure that neither the Deputy nor Deputy Burke can envisage in the context of their contributions on Second Stage of this debate, any greater ogre than becoming Minister for the Environment in so far as the affairs of Dublin Corporation are concerned. If I can give that undertaking I am quite sure that both of the Deputies, in view of their contributions, would feel that anyone other than me would have to have at least a more passive if not a more conciliatory attitude towards the local authority.

Mr. Burke

That is very gracious of the Minister. I admire his view of himself which, when talking about affirmative orders, I would go along with. As the Minister has given this undertaking to the House — it is a major step forward in the debate — in a general way it confirms the importance of debate in this House. Many people would accuse it of being just a rubber stamp. We are making progress on this occasion. We have got confirmation and a commitment from the Minister that if he remains Minister for the Environment he will bring such an order to the House. It is fair and reasonable to say that it is vitally important that whoever the Minister for the Environment is, from no matter which political party, he should be bound to bring this forward. I say that in anticipation of an early general election when I have no doubt, the present Minister who described himself in the manner in which he did will no longer be the Minister for the Environment and there will be a replacement for him. Even if his political party happened to be re-elected with some other unlikely group to form a Government, it is unlikely that the Minister will be reappointed as there are changes regularly within ministeries. The life span of any Minister is very short, even shorter than a commission of three years.

Since the Minister has given a commitment and has accepted the principle, I ask him to go that final step. While I accept fully his good faith and the undertaking he has given, if he feels it necessary to give that undertaking to the House in the light of the arguments put forward by Deputy Mac Giolla and myself, he should accept the amendment and write that undertaking into legislation. That is exactly what the amendment is. It is writing into the legislation that any Minister, no matter which Minister, would have to come back to this House if there was to be an extension. The Minister has accepted the principle and has committed himself to doing it and it is important that others who will follow him in that Department in the lifetime of this commission should also have to be committed by that undertaking. The only way that can be done legally is by accepting the amendment as laid down.

I agree with Deputy Burke that it would have been better if the amendment were inserted in the legislation but I thank the Minister for his undertaking. It indicates an approach which can be very helpful in the remainder of this Committee Stage discussion. I take Deputy Burke's remarks to be also an undertaking on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party and on his behalf personally if he happened to be in the hot seat.

The Deputy should understand that only one man speaks for the Fianna Fáil Party and he is not here.

The Minister's approach has been very reasonable. I thank Deputy Burke and accept his remarks also and on that ground I am prepared to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I thought you were going to give a similar undertaking yourself.

Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill".

We are dealing here with the reason for this legislation. Section 2 (3) provides that:

Dublin Corporation shall in the discharge of its functions have regard to the special importance in the national interest of the Metropolitan Central Area and to the need in that interest to ensure therein a high environmental standard and a high standard of civic amenity and civic design.

Dublin Corporation have been aware of the need and if they had sufficient funds they would have made further progress along the lines they have been making in recent years. There is a greater awareness which was brought around by the pressures of the legislation and the debates that took place in the early eighties and since then on the importance of revitalising our metropolitan area, the heart of our capital city, not just for the benefit of the people in the city centre but of the people of the country.

There was too much dereliction and we on this side of the House went about demolishing many of the old tenements and replacing them with some very fine local authority housing. The members of Dublin Corporation, to their credit have given a greater sense of urgency to the need to revitalise our city centre. The Lord Mayor in his contribution on Second Stage put forward the point that they had a programme of work laid out for themselves and indicated how they were going about it in the city centre area. They put forward a programme of work on pedestrian ways and amenity projects through the whole of the heart of the city, not directly relating to the spine as laid down by the Minister, Liffey Street and the Halfpenny Bridge and that whole area. The work is already under way there to revitalise the heart of the city.

In this Bill the Minister is setting out this metropolitan central area that we are talking about. It is window dressing by the Minister. We have seen pictures of him strolling with TV cameras along Grafton Street and O'Connell Street and they are all very nice. It is a nice sort of publicity to show concern for the city centre, but the main way this Government should show concern for the city centre is by providing sufficient funds for Dublin Corporation to allow them to get on with the necessary work of revitalising the city centre. They are funds that are required, not extra commissions or bodies. It is important to emphasise that on Committee Stage.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 3.

Amendment No. 3 is in the name of Deputy R. Burke. Amendment No. 4 is an alternative. Amendment Nos. 3 and 4 may be debated together by agreement.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 4, subsection (2), line 37, after "members", to insert "and these shall include elected representatives of Dublin Corporation.".

It is very important that here we have the establishment of a Dublin Metropolitan Streets Commission. The Minister is going to establish the commission and he sets out that the commission shall consist of a chairman and not more than six ordinary members. We believe that those six ordinary members should include elected representatives of Dublin Corporation. I go along with Deputy Mac Giolla's amendment that no fewer than three ordinary members should be members of Dublin Corporation nominated by the elected members of the corporation. That is right and reasonable.

Dublin Corporation members are the democratically elected representatives of the people in the city of Dublin so elected in the election of 1985, where for the first time the Fianna Fáil Party got 50 per cent of the membership of the corporation. It is vitally important that those members should have a say in this matter. It is important to remember that only since June 1985 have our party had this strong voice in the corporation numerically and we have been tackling the problem of the centre of our city under the previous Lord Mayoy, Deputy Tunney, and the present Lord Mayor, Deputy B. Ahern. Now their functions will be abolished by this Minister in relation to the central spine of our capital city. Membership on this authority should not be confined to just the manager of the corporation as the Minister suggested on Second Stage Those who should be there are the democratically elected members of the corporation. I go along with the point made by Deputy Mac Giolla and Deputy De Rossa in their amendment that they should be democratically elected members nominated in turn by the corporation.

We have seen the situation in relation to the hospital board in Tallaght and the Dublin Transport Authority. In the case of the hospital the members nominated by the health board have not been accepted by the Minister. In the DTA there was an attempt by the Minister for Communications to wriggle off the hook of the legislation and try to nominate his own pet democratically elected members as distinct from those nominated by the local authority involved.

Therefore, I ask the Minister to accept this principle of democracy as laid out in the amendments before him.

As Deputy Burke said, the purpose of our amendments is to have representated on the commission the elected members of the local authority. It is not intended that they would dominate or anything like that. The Minister is still going to appoint a chairman and a majority of the members, but if the commission are to work in any reasonable way and have any reasonable relationship with the local authority, it is essential to have elected members of the local authority on the commission, whether it is the Lord Mayor or whoever else. I would suggest that the elected members nominate people from among their own members for the commission. It would be bad if the Minister appointed a purely ministerial commission or if the commission were appointed on political grounds. Possibly the Minister has in mind bringing in experts in the field but such experts can also be very dangerous because they may want to start putting into operation some ideas of their own that they have been developing and see this as their chance to put them into effect.

How they are to be received by the people living and working in the area is another matter. There must be checks by reasonable people who know the city and something about its difficulties and the administration of it. The experts may have brilliant ideas but may not see the snags in them before they start putting them into operation. It is therefore appropriate, from the point of view of local democracy, that there be some feedback to the local authorities so that we will know exactly what is happening.

Local authorities in Dublin city and in other parts of the country have representatives on the local health boards, on the vocational education committees and on the port and docks board. The local authority always have representatives on these other authorities within their area of jurisdiction, and that principle should be extended to the commission. This would make for a better working relationship between the local authority and the commission.

We have had considerable debate on Second Stage regarding the purpose of this commission and on what the duties and obligations of the commissioners would be. I hope the commission members will give a great deal of their time and their expertise in a concentrated way to make the work of the commission successful over a limited lifespan.

I assure the House that my approach to appointing the commissioners would be to invite people with a proven record of success and expertise in particular fields and who would have to offer a contribution grounded in sound commonsense. As we all know, the duties of people in public life are particularly onerous. Many members of the corporation, for example, are also members of this House or the other House. The normal day to day duty of those elected members to attend not just Dublin Corporation and meetings of its many committees, but meetings of various other bodies to which they virtually automatically assign themselves by virtue of being members of the corporation, means that they are very busy people indeed. The corporation is a multi-functional authority with a myriad of responsibilities over a very large administrative area and the demands made on its members are numerous. I admire the work done by elected members at local level and I have never lost an opportunity to express my admiration for the commitment of the members of local authorities generally. But what I am trying to do here is to establish a commission to carry out, in a very short period of time, intensive work in a limited but vitally important area. Deputy Burke may call it window dressing. Perhaps in a way, that is exactly what it is. This is the central area of the capital city. In many respects it is the window on Dublin and the window on Ireland. Perhaps that is precisely what we should do, dress that window to display the centre of our city, part of our architectural heritage. We want to make it look as well as possible. We want to ensure that the people charged with the responsibility of lifting it to a high standard over a limited period of time can devote as much as possible of their time and talents to doing that. In that case it is reasonable to ask people from other aspects of life to come and to serve on this commission in a committed way and to give an unusual amount of their own time to making the work of the commission a success.

When the 1982 Bill was being enacted there was no such talk. Likewise, when the Urban Renewal legislation was being enacted in May last, providing for the establishment of the Custom House Dock Authority, I do not think that this point was dwelt on in as much detail or by way of amendment as has been the case today. I would like to think that whatever else the Members of the House might accuse me of, they would not accuse me of seeking to denigrate the role of public representatives. In general terms there is a case to be made for suggesting that where special function authorities are being established for a limited lifespan their membership should be drawn from areas other than the existing corps of elected representatives with all of their existing myriad of responsibilities. What we want to do is to invite people to concentrate their minds on a particular task, whereas with the existing public representatives we are talking about a body of people who are already devoting all their minds to a myriad of tasks.

That argument does not hold up when one takes into account that the Minister said he would appoint the Dublin city manager to be part of this commission. If there is one man in this city who should have his mind on a myriad of tasks, it is the Dublin City manager. He is not only the city manager, he is the city and county manager with a network of assistant managers. He is dealing with one third of the population. The Minister's argument is that he wants as members of the commission people who can devote all their time to the working of this commission; yet the one man he is appointing is already involved in a myriad of tasks. Admittedly, he would be very suitable because of his knowledge of the city, but as far as the time aspect is concerned, I find the Minister's argument extraordinary. The Minister is asking us to accept the argument that this man who is dealing with one third of the population should become a member of this commission. He says he will have the unlimited time needed to devote himself to the work involved, but the 52 members of Dublin Corporation will not have time to devote to the work of this commission. If the corporation members have the right to nominate three members of the commission, the members selected will give of their time. They will be in a better position to do this than the one man the Minister said he will nominate as a member of the commission.

The Minister said he wanted people on the commission who had good, sound common sense. One of the principal attributes of any democratically elected members is good, sound common sense. People elect representatives because they feel they have common sense that, although they may not be experts in specific fields, they will be able to make a rational judgment on any issue that comes before them, and they are able to sift the advice they get and make a decision showing sound common sense. I am sure the Minister did not intend it but there are some members of the local authority who would take offence if they were excluded because the Minister considered they did not have sound common sense. I suggest that these democratically elected representatives, chosen by the people of Dublin to take care of their city, would be the ideal people to be appointed by their corporation members to sit on this commission and put the spotlight on the city of Dublin.

The Minister mentioned window dressing and the necessity to tidy up the city. Nobody is arguing about the need to tidy up the city, but if the corporation were given sufficient funds they would carry out this work. I am not talking about the window dressing of the city of Dublin and the need to tidy it up; I am talking about the cosmetic exercise and the window dressing by the Minister to tidy up his own image and that of his Government.

In my view the case for democratically elected members of Dublin Corporation to be nominated by their own members to serve on this commission is unanswerable. The answers the Minister gave to the arguments put forward by Deputy Mac Giolla and me merely confirmed why members of the corporation should sit on this body. These people are elected because of their common sense and they have the time and the expertise needed. I believe the Minister has made a case why he should accept these amendments.

The Minister has spoken of the great problems faced by the members of Dublin City Council and how difficult they would find it to serve on this commission. He said this would mean more work for them, as if he did not want to overburden them and wanted to relieve them of the pressures involved. I do not believe that was in his mind when he was drafting the section. I believe he took the view that this was a big job which would be outside the scope of the elected members and that super efficient experts would have to be brought in to carry out the job without any messing by elected local representatives.

I want to remind the Minister that a far bigger job, with many millions of pounds involved, was carried out by the elected representatives in Dublin Corporation, Dublin City Council and officials of Dublin Corporation who set up an inner city committee. They worked together and carried out a massive population movement from the Summerhill, Gardiner Street, Waterford Street and Killarney Street area. They levelled all the houses in that area and carried out a rebuilding programme with new parks, new houses, shops, pubs, and a planned VEC school at the back of the Gresham Hotel. They rebuilt the area and brought families back to it, all without any fuss, publicity or bother. If that job had not been done there is no way any commission could do anything with O'Connell Street. Five or six years ago there was a great deal of crime in the area, bad housing and so on, all affecting the population of the area and, therefore, the O'Connell Street area which will be the responsibility of this commission.

The elected representatives of Dublin Corporation and the officials carried that job most efficiently in consultation with the people of the area. If that job had been attempted by a ministerial commission there would have been riots because they would not have taken into consideration what the people wanted, where they wanted to go, and so on. That was a much more massive job than this fiddling job being given to this commission with an expenditure of £10 million. This is a very simple job. Dublin Corporation have great experience in this area because they have carried out similar work. If they had the powers and the money they would not have any difficulty. As regards the members of the local authority, they would be delighted to elect members to sit on the commission. The elected members of the city council could pursue this task for which the commission are being set up over a three year period and could report back to the local authority on progress. The members nominated by the local authority would do this job as their primary job.

They could work like other committees of the corporation.

Exactly, and they could report back to the city council. These members could devote as much time to this task as could the commission as they could see it as their primary task. The Minister need not worry about the members being overloaded with work as this task would be the only major work they would do during their period of office.

The Minister should ensure we have a commission who will not bulldoze their way through, irrespective of what people think. Whatever they do will be under scrutiny and they could cause great problems if they bulldoze their way through without consultation. A good liaison with the local authority is vital if the commission are to do their job. The best way to do this is to appoint some elected representatives, to accept either my amendment or Deputy Burke's amendment.

When the commission are appointed, the city manager will be on that commission, so there will be a link between the corporation and the commission. There has been a huge furore about what the commission will do. Anybody who walks down O'Connell Street or Grafton Street will be able to see what the commission will do. Nothing has happened to improve those streets in the past number of years. There is no point in saying resources are not available. An attempt was not even made to keep the streets in reasonable order. The Minister during Second Stage debate invited Members to walk the streets and note that the basic standards have been allowed to deteriorate over the years. One questions why this is happening.

Where are the litter wardens? There was not enough money for them.

I am not talking about litter wardens.

That is one of the things.

I am talking about lumps of tar stuck in holes. I suggest the Deputy do that walk and he will be amazed at the state of things. I am not being over-critical of the local authority. They have a lot of responsibilities and have done some very good things in the city. Had I accepted Opposition amendments to the Urban Renewal Bill we would not have needed legislation to set up this commission; we could have set it up by order. However we were in favour of doing this on the basis of specific legislation. Nobody will disagree that this city, particularly the main streets, should be to a high standard. In our young days there was always an element of glory and splendour about O'Connell Street. As a child, I remember the Gresham Hotel, Kingstons and Findlaters.

Gondolas on the Liffey.

The splendour has gone from O'Connell Street. It no longer has that appeal. People do not bring their children into O'Connell Street for entertainment. We want to restore life to the city so that families can walk in pleasant surroundings to shop, where they will not see shutters pulled down on the shops, where they will not see ugly signs around and where there will not be litter.

(Interruptions.)

I am sorry some members of the Opposition do not understand what this is about.

We are going back to a Second Stage speech.

The Minister is filling time.

I was coming round to that way of thinking.

We will stick to it.

We are discussing amendments Nos. 3 and 4.

Deputy Mac Giolla threw cold water on this idea and I was entitled to reply to him. We are setting up a commission to do a special job and when the job is done responsibility will be handed back to the local authority who we hope will maintain the high standard that will be set by the commission in the interests of our city. We have a link with the local authority in that the city manager will be on the commission. People do not understand what we are about here. The whole idea is a contract to bring the streets to a very high standard. It is not as if we were taking away responsibility for good. We are merely doing so for a period of time after which we will ask local authorities to ensure maintenance at that standard.

Listening to the Minister of State filling in for the Minister one could be excused for forgetting that he was Lord Mayor of the city a few years ago. The city's condition — not just the main streets — is the result of lack of administration, control and direction by the Coalition when they controlled the corporation.

The Minister said that the Opposition do not understand the Bill. We certainly do, it is about window dressing. The Minister confirmed the appointment of the City and County Manager to the commission which is against all the arguments the Minister of State made for not accepting elected members of the corporation. The Minister of State said that they should not be accepted because they were so busy that they would not have time to devote themselves to the work of the commission. The official to be appointed, the City and County Manager, is probably the busiest man in the county as he has overall responsibility for one third of the population. Democratically elected members of the corporation are refused the right to membership of the commission. The Minister said they will be too busy to concentrate on the commission but, as Deputy Mac Giolla said, it would be easy to arrange for elected members to concentrate on the commission only and not to be involved in other committees of the corporation. I am sure members involved would be willing to devote their time to the commission and report back to their colleagues at monthly meetings. It is very important for the principle of democracy which is so often trumpeted by this administration, that the commission as part of their membership would have democratically elected members of the corporation.

As a member of Dublin Corporation and as someone who has spoken in the past about the qualities of the officials and the commitment of members of the corporation I support the point made by the Minister. There is a basic contradiction in the point made by Deputy Burke and others on the Opposition. The purpose of the Bill and the need for fast action has been explained. If ever there was a Bill which should have been non-partisan and non-political it is this, a Bill which has been welcomed by the vast majority of Dubliners. However, the Bill has been totally politicised by the Opposition. They are saying that Fianna Fáil have a majority in Dublin Corporation and that if three or four members are appointed by the corporation they will all be from Fianna Fáil. Fianna Fáil have opposed this Bill in principle and in detail and we are expected to believe that they would now support the scheme to the best of their ability. A Minister who would accept a corporation with a hostile majority and expect them to co-operate with the objectives of the Bill would not have his full mental faculties.

The Bill is important and should be passed very quickly. This proposal would militate against speed and the efficient operation and achievements of the Bill. By all means let us have the fullest liaison with the corporation and keep the members and officials fully informed. Let us work in a co-operative way with the members of the corporation. To do what the Opposition suggest would almost certainly mean a slowing up of the work of the Bill and would perhaps lead to the frustration of its most important objectives.

Now we have the answer as to why the Minister will not accept that elected members of the corporation be appointed to the commission. I should like the Minister to indicate if he is afraid that Fianna Fáil members will be elected or is his decision in this regard for the purported reason which was given earlier on?

How can you expect people who have opposed legislation tooth and nail in principle and detail to give it their full support and help towards its speedy implementation?

Deputy Manning's intervention has been most unfortunate because he has given credence to a suggestion made on Second Stage that the commission were established because the Coalition had lost their majority on Dublin Corporation. I did not believe this but Deputy Manning's remarks make me think that there might be something in it. However, I should like to point out that Fianna Fáil do not have a majority on Dublin City Council as one of their members joined the Progressive Democrats. That destroys the point which Deputy Manning made, that since the Minister knows Fianna Fáil would have a majority and would appoint people to the commission he would be very stupid to allow their members on the commission. It debases the whole issue of local democracy and of councillors by introducing a political point into a debate on the right of local elected city councillors to have a place for some of their members on a commission dealing with the heart of the city which they were elected to deal with. This is being imposed on them and we are speaking about their right to nominate one, two or three members to the commission. Deputy Manning's contribution has reduced the whole question of local democracy to politics. It is a pity this sort of attitude was introduced because we had been having a very reasonable discussion on the Bill. It is very important to have representatives from the elected members of the City Council on the commission. That would make for a better relationship. I do not think the Minister should consider Deputy Manning's point in relation to our amendments.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá. 65; Níl, 74.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Noonan, Michael J.(Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Edmond.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Browne: Níl, Deputies F. O'Brien and Taylor.
Amendment declared lost.
Amendment No. 4 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill".

Although our amendment has been defeated I should like to restate it is the view of our party that the local authority should have the right to nominate members of the commission. Will the Minister confirm that in appointing members of the commission the views expressed by Deputy Manning earlier, that they cannot be Fianna Fáil members or have been associated with that party in any way because they would be opposed to the operation of the commission, will not be taken into consideration? Will the Minister confirm that the appointments will be made on merit and the views expressed by Deputy Manning will not influence him?

I should like to tell the Deputy I do not have any intention of appointing Deputy Manning to the commission. I have no hesitation in giving the undertaking sought by Deputy Burke. We must be careful to try to find people who have a contribution to make. I should like to give an assurance to the House that the members of the commission will not be drawn on purely party political grounds.

I should like to point out that there is nothing in the section that states the Minister shall not appoint members of the corporation to the commission but, as I made clear in the course of the debate on the amendment, that is not my intention. I am sure that view is shared by other Members. It appears to me Deputy Burke shared that view when he was Minister. In fact, when the Deputy was contributing to the Committee Stage debate on the Urban Renewal Bill last May he said he did not find that Bill in any way anti-democratic but today he is suggesting that the Bill before us puts question marks over the democratic function. I hope the commission will be successful in their work by having as wide a range of advice and consultation as possible available to them. Apart from the statutory commission I hope we can establish an advisory committee, drawn on a wide range of interests and, perhaps, representing the experts about whom Deputy Mac Giolla has some reservations. He felt that, in pursuit of their narrow field of expertise, they might be aware of broader objectives or constraints. It is my intention that an advisory committee composed of people from various walks of life would serve. It would provide a useful reservoir of advice for the elected commission.

Elected commission?

The appointed commission. I am quite open to the idea that perhaps some sort of consultative committee or grouping from the elected membership of the corporation could be formed who would have continuing dialogue with the commission regarding the work. When the commission have completed their work in three years it is important that that work will be transferred to the permanent care of the corporation. I chose three years for two reasons: one, to have a defined limit on the life span of the commission and, two, so that the limit would expire before the lifetime of the existing Dublin Corporation. I want the existing corporation to have an opportunity within their lifetime to be responsible again for the administration of that area. The area will have been lifted and improved to a certain standard and then transferred back to the care of the corporation in perpetuity. I want the responsibility handed over to the corporation before they again get an opportunity to go to the electorate.

I hope the House will accept I am not appointing the commission, as has been suggested, because of the particular political composition of the corporation at present. That suggestion is fallacious. Irrespective of how the balance of power exists in the corporation, I would have approached this matter in the same way. Once this is done in a specific piece of legislation which will set out the functions and purpose of the commission, there is provision for the care of the improved area to revert to the corporation.

My suggestion that the city manager would serve on the commission was prompted by the desire for a close linkage on a day-to-day basis between the corporation and the commission. A day-to-day liaison between the corporation and the commission could best be achieved by having the CEO of the corporation acting on the commission as a member. I was taken aback by some of Deputy Burke's suggestions in this regard. I do not know if he was advancing them simply as debating points. If I felt he had a deep belief in them or that he has some deep-rooted objection to the Dublin City manager being appointed on the commission, if he felt that because of his responsibilities the city manager would not be able to give sufficient time and attention to the work of the commission, I would like to hear the Deputy on that. I suspect he does not believe that. There will have to be close co-operation between the commission and the various sections of the corporation and, therefore, having the city manager on the commission would provide a useful conduit through which the consultative and co-operative process could continue.

I suggest there might be a committee of Dublin Corporation members to engage in consultations and to act in an advisory capacity with the general advisory committee that would be appointed. The House might consider that side-by-side with the general advisory committee some members of the corporation might be involved who would have an opportunity to hear the views of experts and others, and those other experts would have the opportunity to hear members of the corporation.

The plot thickens. Now we have got ourselves not only a commission but we are into a general advisory committee which will advise the commission on their work and we have a further suggestion that a committee of the corporation would liaise with the commission. We started with Dublin Corporation, then we had the Dublin Transport Authority. Before the transport authority got going taking the powers from the corporation we have this commission taking the powers from the Dublin Transport Authority. We have confusion heaped upon confusion. We now have the commission and a general advisory committee to advise the commission as to how they should do their work. In a sop to the local authorities the Minister suggests that perhaps we should have a corporation committee as well to liaise with the commission. Where does the confusion end?

The Minister referred to my comments on the proposed appointment of the city manager to the commission. In his argument against accepting democratically elected people to serve on the commission the Minister said that members of the corporation were busy people and would not have time to give to the intensive work in which this commission will be involved. At the same time he said he would appoint the city manager, the CEO of an area which contains one-third of the population of the entire country. If there is one man in Dublin who has a full-time job it is the CEO of Dublin Corporation. I was not emphasising the qualities or otherwise of the city manager; I tried to highlight the contradiction in the Minister's argument rejecting the democratically elected members of the corporation on the basis that they are too busy but, at the same time, appointing a man who is administering an area containing one-third of the population of the country.

The logic escapes me. The further this goes the more it confirms me in my suspicion that this is a political decision because the membership of Dublin Corporation changed after many years, from being Government-controlled and the Government decided that because they did not have control of the corporation any longer they would appoint a commission to control them. That changed in 1985 and there is this knee jerk reaction of the Government that since they do not any more have control of it they will take control in a different way with regard to this commission. The cat was let out of the bag by Deputy Manning and as the debate goes on I am ever more confirmed in my suspicions.

Does Deputy Burke object to the concept of the city manager being a member of this commission?

I have no objection whatsoever to the city manager being appointed to this commission. It is an excellent idea. However, that is not the same thing as having elected representatives on the commission and has nothing to do with the argument with regard to elected representatives. It is good that the city manager will be on the commission. From the point of view of administration, it is absolutely essential that either he or a Deputy should be appointed. I am sorry that the idea of having the elected representatives on the commission is not acceptable. However, the advisory committee idea is a reasonble suggestion by the Minister, to have advice going to the commission other than just having the expertise on the commission. I would be very worried about having another committee as well as the advisory committee, a Dublin Corporation committee which they would feel would be the advisory committee, because there would be argument as to whose advice comes first, or whether they are only an advisory committee to the advisory committee and not to the commission.

The Minister made the suggestion that perhaps elected members of the city council should be on the advisory committee and that that would be the best type of substitute for having elected members on the commission. I urge the Minister to have an advisory committee with elected members from the corporation on it and not to have another separate committee after that. The role of the advisory committee will be decided purely by the Minister, I presume. We have no input into that in this debate where we are discussing a Bill. I commend the Minister for suggesting the advisory committee, hoping that he will go through with it and make it in some way representative of the local elected authority, presumably people of the area, business people, although I have a feeling that the Minister will have these people represented on the commission. The advisory committee must have people who are concerned with the area if it is to have any effect. Elected members of the corporation should be on the advisory committee. The commission should in some way have to listen to or read their submissions and the Minister should see to that. The commission should not be able to say that they would ignore the advisory committee because they are not mentioned in the Bill, which is quite possible. I hope the Minister will follow up this idea and give it some bit of clout.

Let me make the point, in my defence and in clarification of Deputy Burke's remark, that my only reason for suggesting a separate consultative committee exclusive of Dublin Corporation members was in an effort in some way to meet some of the points made by Deputy Burke and Deputy Mac Giolla earlier. Quite frankly, I have been endeavouring to approach this debate from the point of view of being reasonable towards some of the points being made.

I accept that.

My difficulty is that if I respond in this manner I am accused of further confusing the issue, of thickening the plot. It is difficult to endeavour to be positive in response generally. Basically, I would like to see some sort of vehicle whereby the elected members could make their views known to the commissioners, not just through the improvement scheme and observations thereon but in relation to the ongoing work of the commission over the three years. If the work of the commission is successful, that is one thing. When the work reverts to the care and maintenance of the corporation, I hope that the members will be so pleased with what has been done that they will give particular attention to the special status designation of the central area and will themselves make special arrangements in relation to its ongoing care and maintenance to a high standard. I was merely endeavouring to meet, at least, the spirit of some of the contributions which have been made by the two Deputies who have been participating in the debate. There was nothing more sinister or Machiavellian than within my remarks.

Unfortunately, the waters were muddied by the contribution of Deputy Manning.

I suggest that if the Minister were sincere in his acknowledgement of and concern for the contribution which the elected members could make, the obvious thing for him to have done would have been to accept the amendment and include elected members on the commission. That appears to be the obvious result of what he is claiming to have done himself, but in typical fashion he is trying to straddle the two horses.

When this affront to the elected members was sold it was on the basis that there was need for work in the centre of the city, that it was not within the capacity of the elected members to do that work, that it was so urgent that the only way it could be done was by the appointment of so-called experts who could have this work carried out. Now the Minister is telling us that he does not see the work being carried out in that fashion, that it will be necessary to have an advisory committee and also that there will be a third committee consisting of other people, including members of Dublin Corporation. If there was ever an example of doing things in reverse, this is it. The elected members of Dublin Corporation, in discharge of their functions, where they feel that they have not the necessary competence in respect of art and culture establish advisory committees and that is what should have happened in this case. If it was felt that there was some contribution that could be made by anybody other then the elected members, then it should have been indicated to them that they should proceed to have this business done and it could be indicated that they might employ the advisers who have been spoken about here, but I revert to my earlier position on this.

The legislation is unnecessary. It would not be before the House where it not for the fact of the changed circumstances in respect of the elected members of the corporation. This particular aspect that we are discussing now would have been satisfied and representation would have been given except for the fact that, on examination of the figures it was discovered that the Fianna Fáil Party would have to have greater representation than any other party. That is the sole reason. Having accomplished the initial part of a conquest to demonstrate that they were not the elected members of Dublin Corporation who were doing this but rather a benign Minister we are back to accepting the reality of the position, that is, the competence of the elected members of Dublin Corporation to discharge their functions. In a backhanded way we are saying: "All right, we will take them because we know they have something to offer now and we will make provision to have them included." As I see it, no self-respecting elected member of Dublin Corporation would accept a position inferior to that of people who have not been elected at all.

In the matter of our esteemed city manager I have listened to the Minister and to Deputy R. Burke. I venture to say that the point made by Deputy R. Burke was that if, on the one hand, the Minister argued that the nature of this work was such that it could not be undertaken by busy elected representatives, he would have to accept that that argument of his was being defeated in circumstances in which he invited the city manager, who was equally busy, to accept membership of the commission. That point made by Deputy Burke is the one I would make myself. The city manager is very much busier than any of our elected representatives. Surely if it is being maintained that the elected representatives are so busy that they could not accept membership of the commission, it must be accepted also that the city manager is equally busy and, accordingly, not as qualified as other people to serve on that commission.

I heard a number of speakers on the opposite side of the House this morning say that the Bill before us was introduced because the main Opposition party had a majority on Dublin City Council. That is not true. They have not a majority because, for the election of the Lord Mayor, they had to depend on votes from other parties.

The Minister speaks of an advisory committee. The elected members of Dublin Corporation, in a sense, constitute an advisory committee. Under the managerial Act many of their functions now are of a managerial or executive nature and elected members can advise the city manager only. I am glad to note that the city manager has been appointed to the commission. One of the important roles of the commission will be to combine the executive and co-ordinating functions essential to their satisfactory working. The city manager can constitute the linchpin in that area.

I endorse what Deputy Mac Giolla has just said, that when the Minister is appointing the members of the commission he should bear the business community in mind. In recent times Dublin Corporation have made positive efforts to upgrade the inner city. An example of this is the paving of Mary Street and Henry Street in which the business community supported Dublin Corporation financially. With that goodwill on the part of the business community they should be borne in mind by the Minister for representation on the commission.

I do not believe the Minister would share Deputy J. Doyle's view that Dublin Corporation constitute merely an advisory body to the city manager. A corporation or local authority are a democratically elected body having specific reserved powers to do a lot more than advise a manager whether of Dublin Corporation or any other local authority. On the point made by Deputy J. Doyle with regard to the work being done by Dublin Corporation on the paving of Henry Street and Mary Street, I should say that is exactly the type of work which forms part of the overall programme which the Minister now intends to be undertaken by the proposed commission. That is the type of programme that had been outlined by Dublin Corporation, much of which was already under way, and confirms our argument that this Bill is not necessary.

I might refer once again to the position of the city manager. The Minister asked me a direct question across the House. I want to answer it because, if I do not, it will be taken that I am saying the city manager is not a suitable person for the position. I want to emphasise that I have absolute confidence in his ability and commitment to his job. He would be an addition to the commission or to any other authority or committee on which he was asked to serve. I want to emphasise that the Minister, for the purpose of the argument, made the point in relation to not allowing members of the commission to be nominated by the elected members of Dublin Corporation on the basis that they were too busy. Surely the role of the city manager is a far busier one than that of any member of that local authority. There is no question as to the ability of the city manager. He is a man of integrity, commitment, dedication to his role, who has shown his ability over a wide range of functions he has undertaken on behalf of the people. It should be remembered that he is the city manager for a third of the population of this country and, consequently, is a very busy person indeed, which would run totally counter to the argument the Minister put forward as his main reason for not nominating members of Dublin Corporation.

Would the Deputy give us his views on the general idea of perhaps members of Dublin Corporation serving on the advisory committee or being involved in some way like that?

That would be a matter strictly for the elected members of Dublin Corporation to take their decisions as to whether they would care to participate in the work of any advisory committee. The Minister has put forward two proposals. He put forward the proposal for a general advisory committee. There will be the general advisory committee and then there was the suggestion by the Minister of a further liaison or monitoring type committee of Dublin Corporation. It is strictly a matter for the individual members of Dublin Corporation to decide on their roles.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 5, subsection (2), to delete lines 4 and 5 and substitute the following:

"(a) the transfer of the property and rights of the Commission to Dublin Corporation,”.

The provisions of this section, as worded, propose that, on the expiry of the life span of this commission of three years, the property, rights and liabilities of the commission shall be transferred to Dublin Corporation. My amendment proposes the transfer of the property and rights only of the commission to Dublin Corporation and that the Minister take on any other liabilities. This subsection proposal is a bit hard to swallow from the point of view of Dublin Corporation. They are doing their job in relation to their city. Their powers are being taken from them by an unelected commission appointed by the Minister for three years. At the end of those three years they are being asked to take on the liabilities of that commission in whose operations they have had no say. If the Minister wants to appoint a commission at the end of their term of office the least he can do on behalf of the State is to take on the liabilities of that commission. That argument cannot be knocked. Perhaps the Minister would respond at this point.

As I am sure the Deputy knows, this is a standing provision in relation to the establishment of any body, especially where a time limitation is being put on its operations, that its property, rights and liabilities would be transferred at the end of that period. In fairness to Deputy Burke, he entered this amendment in conjunction with amendment No. 7 which has been ruled out of order. Because of that, this amendment on its own stands rather strangely. Were it accepted, the liabilities, if any, of the commission would then be assigned to nobody. One could only share the fear which the Deputy is expressing if one assumed the commission would act in a totally irresponsible way in the exercise of their functions and that at the end of their period they would have accrued liabilities of a crippling nature which would transfer to Dublin Corporation. I do not believe there is any real reason to worry about that. There are specific provisions in sections 10(8) and 12 to enable the Minister by issuing directives to ensure that the commission would operate only within certain parameters.

When a similar point was raised in the other House, I said it would be my intention to use those powers, perhaps at the commencement of the last of the three years of the commission's operations, if it appeared there was any danger of liabilities being built up. It would be totally irresponsible of the commission to operate on the basis of using all the moneys available, accruing outstanding liabilities and handing those liabilities to the corporation at the end of the period. That would be totally outside the spirit of what the commission are being invited to do and I cannot foresee that this would happen. I would be tremendously disappointed to think there could be a likelihood of its happening. There are control provisions in sections 10 (8) and 12 to enable the Minister to move in time to prevent such an eventuality if it appeared likely. The form of this provision is standard in relation to the establishment and dissolution of particular bodies set up under statute.

If it is standard, is it necessary? Under section 12 the Minister is providing for a situation where he is obligating the corporation to pay all expenses. If after consultation with the commission there is any disagreement, the Minister reserves to himself the power to say "you shall pay". Since such provision is in section 12, why is it necessary to have another provision, even though it might be standard in respect of the establishment of bodies? If section 12 were defeated it would be necessary for this provision, but in circumstances where it seems it will be passed, why do we need it?

These are standard provisions which apply to any body established under Statute. There is nothing sinister in their inclusion in this section. This is the form in which the parliamentary draftsman prepared the section. It is a standard provision.

Perhaps the Minister would consider this point over lunch. I had not in mind the ordinary expenses of the commission. Somebody has to pick up the tab for postage and stationery and I believe the Minister should be responsible. I am more concerned about legal responsibility in relation to possible compensation claims. This commission have as one of their main functions to design an improvement scheme. If there is a conflict between this improvement scheme and Dublin Corporation's development plan, a property holder may take a case relating to his constitutional rights in relation to his property. It may be claimed the commission's improvement scheme would damage his property rights as they would have been laid down in the development plan of the corporation. If he or she takes a case against the commission on the basis that property rights have been damaged in any improvement scheme designed by the commission, what is the position regarding those liabilities? If the Bill goes through in its present form, the liabilities will be passed to the corporation rather than the Minister.

My amendment No. 5 states:

In page 5, subsection (2), to delete lines 4 and 5 and substitute the following:

"(a) the transfer of the property and rights of the Commission to Dublin Corporation,".

Amendment No. 7, which has been ruled out of order, states:

In page 5, subsection (2), between lines 12 and 13, to insert the following:

"(c) all the outstanding financial liabilities of the Commission shall, on the dissolution of the Commission, be assumed by the Minister.".

I was trying to make the Government responsible rather than passing on potential liabilities to Dublin Corporation. Dublin Corporation would have had no control in the matter and compensation claims could arise simply because they had a development plan in the first place. It is a complex question and I would be grateful if the Minister would set my mind at ease on it.

I understand precisely the worry the Deputy is expressing. Let me give an example of what I would regard as an irresponsible action. If the commission moved under section 11 to seek to have somebody discontinue a use where there might be possible compensation claims under section 11 (7) and if the commission decided in the 11th month of their third year to serve such a notice, obviously the size of the compensation could not be determined until after the lifetime of the commission and thus, there would be an undefined liability. I must assume the commission will not act irresponsibly. The Deputy might consider section 10(8) which allows the Minister from time to time to give the commission a general directive in writing as to policy regarding the performance of any function assigned to them under the Act. If during the first two years of the operation of the commission there was a fear grounded in fact that something like this might happen, the Minister could use that power in section 10(8) to direct the commission, for example, that they should not serve any such notices within a period where they would not be in a position to meet any liabilities resulting from them during their lifetime. That is what I would envisage being done, were it felt necessary. I do not believe the necessity for this will arise unless the commission act totally irresponsibly, as all of us hope will not happen.

I see the possibility of conflict arising at an early stage between the development plan of Dublin Corporation and the scheme of development to be laid down by the commission.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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