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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 5 Dec 1986

Vol. 370 No. 8

Supplementary Estimates, 1986. - Vote 32: Primary Education.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £1,752,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1986, for Primary Education, including National School Teachers' Superannuation, etc.

I am seeking the approval of the House for two Supplementary Estimates, one for £1.752 million for the Vote for primary education and one for £3.142 million for the Vote for post-primary education. The additional sum of £1.752 million sought for Vote 32 for primary education will increase the net Estimate from £379.710 million to £381.462 million. The additional sum of £3.142 million sought for Vote 33 for post-primary education will increase the net Estimate from £440.629 million to £443.771 million.

These two Supplementary Estimates will add £4.894 million to the total net voted provision in the five Votes for which I, as Minister for Education, am responsible. Expenditure will not exceed the provision by that amount, however. There are offsetting savings in the other Education Votes and the overall variation from the original provision which is anticipated at this time is an excess of only £0.51 million variation of one half of one per cent. Marginal savings which cannot be individually anticipated may reduce this figure further.

Of the additional sum sought for primary education, £4.766 million is required for subhead E — Building, Equipment and Furnishing of National Schools. This will increase the original provision of £28.23 million to £33 million. The additional funds are required to meet commitments which have to be met in the current year as many projects are ahead of schedule due to factors affecting the construction industry, for example, the exceptionally good weather in the autumn.

A sum of £43,000 is required for subhead C4 — £29,000 for subsection (1) Equipment for Special Education, and £14,000 for subsection (4) Library grants, as the grants payable under both these schemes are greater than expected. A sum of £56,000 is being provided for subhead C.6 — Aid towards the cost of school books.

These additional amounts are being offset by saving amounting to £3,113,000 as follows: £2.218 million on subhead C.1 — Salaries etc. of Teachers; £0.100 million on subhead C.5 — Capitation Grants towards operating costs of national schools; £0.493 million on subhead D — Superannuation etc. of Teachers and £0.302 million in subhead F being a surplus of Appropriations-in-aid.

An additional £520,000 is required on subhead F — Superannuation of Secondary Teachers as the number of teachers retiring voluntarily, and in respect of whom lump sums are payable, is greater than expected. Appropriations-in-aid realised will be less than provided for by a net £17.317 million.

Receipts from examination fees of students will fall short of the amount provided for by £1.741 million. This arises because of the implementation of new arrangements whereby fees for the 1987 examinations will be payable in one moiety in 1987 instead of in two moieties, one in 1986 and one in 1987.

Receipts from the European Social Fund will be less than expected by £15.795 million. Part of this shortfall results from a lesser take-up than anticipated of places on ESF-aided courses. The major part of the shortfall, however, amounting to some £13.489 million, is due to a delay on the part of the ESF in the making of payments as a result of which moneys expected in 1986 will not be received until 1987.

These additional amounts are being offset by savings amounting to £14.914 million as follows: £1.655 million in subhead A1 — Secondary Teachers' Incremental Salary Grant; £10.125 million in A2 — Annual Grants to Vocational Education Committees; £0.525 million in subhead C — Grants to Secondary School Authorities; £0.150 million in subhead D1 — Comprehensive and Community Schools Running Costs; £2 million in subhead G — Capital for Second-level Schools and for VEC Colleges; £0.024 million in subhead I — Examinations, and £0.219 million in subhead L — being a surplus of Appropriations-in-Aid.

On a point of information, is there a stated time for speaking?

Acting Chairman

Under Standing Orders you have 45 minutes, Deputy.

For each speaker?

Acting Chairman

The Minister has 45 minutes and the spokesperson for the Opposition has 45 minutes. Each other speaker has 20 minutes after that.

Can we finish before the time stated?

Acting Chairman

Yes, they are maximum times.

The statement the Minister has put before us is explanatory. Some of the points he made puzzled me and some are very clear. Acting Chairman, is there a time for the Minister to respond?

Acting Chairman

If there is time left for interventions.

There will be and we will see if he can throw up some of the answers.

I am sure the Minister will be very anxious to facilitate us in that.

I must apologise to the House because I would have to read figures as the Minister did in his speech. Figures are not like speeches — they have to be very precise. In Vote 32 — Primary Education — under subhead C.1 there is a saving of £2.218 million in teachers' salaries. I am not quite sure how that came about. Will the Minister explain the increase in the post-primary section? Was it because of the number of teachers retiring and, therefore, superannuation increasing? I am sure the figures balance out somewhere, but how is there a saving of £2.2 million in teachers' salaries when the revised Estimate provided for an increase of only 3 per cent over 1985? How does the number of £35 million allocated in the interim arrangement fit into that and where have savings been made at primary school teacher level? Is account taken of the initial payment of the arbitration settlement?

Under subhead C.5 in Vote 32 there is a saving of £100,000 in capitation grants. This might seem small money but we know the general outcry that arose throughout the country about capitation grants and how difficult boards of management or primary schools are finding it, particularly in inner city or urban areas. Those boards of management have become fund-raising committees for the upkeep of the schools, for basic requirements such as heating and maintenance of the schools, general decor, the provision of necessary equipment and various other matters. It is odd that there was a saving there.

The main item in this Supplementary Estimate is the additional sum of practically £5 million for buildings, extensions, equipment and so on. The Minister gave a grant scale on the first page of his speech in which he said that the additional funds were required to meet commitments which have to be met in the current year as many projects were ahead of schedule due to factors affecting the construction industry, for example, the exceptionally good weather in the autumn. That might sound nice and lyrical but the Minister cannot expect us to believe it. When I spoke on the Estimates last year I pointed out that the capital allowance for expenditure at primary level was not nearly enough. At that time I queried how the Minister could propose to reduce by £6 million the 1985 figure of £34 million. Obviously that shortfall has not been sustained because we now have an additional Estimate. I have no doubt that there was an artificial hold up of sanctions for new school buildings, extensions, improvements and equipment. Due to other commitments the Minister was not in the House recently when both I and Deputy Fitzgerald, questioned the Minister of State, Deputy Enda Kenny, with regard to delays in various primary school sanctions. The Minister of State said there were approximately 800 projects awaiting approval in the Department. It has probably never happened before that there have been so many delays in granting approvals.

I put it to the Minister that the Department have been using various tactics in order to delay decisions. We constantly read in the newspapers about intolerable difficulties being experienced by pupils and teachers who have to use unsuitable, old and unhygenic buildings. When we asked the Minister of State those questions he was extremely frank about the conditions of some schools and said that in some cases they dated back to the late nineteenth century and were not at all suitable but that there had been a hold up in granting approvals. It is quite amusing to consider some of the excuses made by the Department to delay an approval. In some instances the Department hold up the approval because the surveyor wishes to look again as he is not pleased with the first inspection and there is a delay of three months between the initial inspection and the next visit of the surveyor. The next time there will be a delay because of the planning permission. In Tubberclare in Athlone for instance the people concerned were ready to go ahead with the project when the Department wanted to know if the planning permission was all right. They were asked to go back to the planning authority to ask if the sanctioned approval of three years ago would stand up to scrutiny now. Of course the planning authority rushed out a fresh permission. These are just instances of the delaying tactics used by the Department. In many of these instances the parochial contribution is already collected and the boards of management have given proof of that collection but still the delays go on. I do not accept the Minister's grand talk about fine weather. The school buildings are way behind for sanctions for new buildings and improvements. That was anticipated by us last spring when we spoke on the Estimates. Not alone has that been proved right but the amount now allocated will fall far short of what will be needed.

There is nothing like an imminent general election for concentrating the mind. There is no doubt that the imminence of a general election has concentrated the Government's mind on the need for the allocation of funds particularly at primary school level. Daily we hear anguished cries from boards of managements and we hear of strikes by students and teachers and of parents who are up in arms because of these delays in sanctioning improvement works. That 800 projects are awaiting approval in the Department is an alarming statistic. Deputy Kenny spoke about the unsuitable buildings in which children were being housed. The sum being provided for capital works is smaller than that needed. It is a pity that the huge delays went on all year and that now the excuse is being given that the money is needed because the work in the Department of Education at primary school level is ahead of schedule. A four year old would not accept that excuse. It conflicts with the real situation in primary schools.

A sum of £29,000 is required for equipment for special education. I welcome that and wish it could be more because as the Minister has said we can never have enough money for this type of education. I hope this small amount will go some way towards redressing the balance in favour of the disadvantaged. A sum of £14,000 is being provided for library grants and £56,000 is being provided for aid towards the cost of school books. This is a small additional sum but it is indicative of the underlying social environment in which children are reared in that the moneys needed towards schools books is greater than ever.

I hope the Minister will enlighten me as to the savings of £2.218 million under subhead C.1 — salaries of teachers and operating costs of national schools and £0.493 million on superannuation of teachers. The saving on salaries is puzzling and we would like an answer on it.

In relation to Vote 33 on post primary education on additional £500,000 is required under subhead F. The Minister mentioned in relation to that, that the number of teachers retiring voluntarily has been greater than expected. The Minister also said that receipts from examination fees of students would fall short of the amount provided because of a different arrangement. There is a one moiety payment instead of two. This matter is raised in the Minister's Estimate.

I know the Minister is aware of the intolerable burden placed on some parents by the level of examination fees. There is a greater call on the school authorities at post primary level to help the parents of pupils who cannot pay the fees for the intermediate and leaving certificates. These fees have gone up much more than the cost of living index and, because of the greater number of people out of work and on social welfare, they are unable to meet payments. There is nothing that parents will not do to help their children's education and they will provide money for it ahead of everything else because they regard schooling as so important. I do not take every story told to me at its face value but some parents have told me how much they are getting a week and they have asked how can they provide for a hefty fee for State examinations. I know there is a waiver scheme but it is very narrow in its application. School principals in post primary schools have a small amount of leeway but, in schools run by the religious orders, the nuns or brothers pay examination fees out of their own resources for pupils who cannot afford to pay. As well as being a burden on parents, additional anguish is caused to pupils who have to tell the teacher collecting the fees that he or she simply cannot afford to pay. A hard look should be taken at the level of these fees and a broader waiver scheme invoked so that no child is barred from sitting an examination. Perhaps the Minister will say that no child is barred from sitting an examination because of lack of fees but, nevertheless, the scheme should be examined. A discretionary fund should be set up for this purpose.

The sums we have been talking about are relatively small although interesting in their application but the main sum of money is devoted to post primary level. The Minister said that receipts from the European Social Fund will be less than expected, £15.795 million less. Part of this shortfall results from a lesser than anticipated take up of places on ESF aided courses. Is this lesser take up because of a lack of places within our third level VEC colleges to which all the ESF funds apply or was there not enough call on the funds for those places? If there are not enough places in third level institutions, there should be an acceleration of the building programme in relation to RTCs, a matter that has been discussed many times.

The Minister also said that the major part of the shortfall, amounting to some £13.489 million, is due to a delay on the part of the ESF in the making of payments as a result of which moneys expected in 1986 will not be received until 1987. This is a very serious situation which camouflages a major bureaucratic bungle. The Department of Education failed to collect over £13 million due to them in 1986 from the European Social Fund. The Minister will probably say that the EC has been tardy in making payments but we have also been tardy in seeking them. This was caused by the lack of back-up staff in VEC committees and third level institutes who handle ESF moneys. Their present staff cannot deal with the huge increase of moneys and paperwork necessary to apply the funds. We have always been recognised as good Europeans, sometimes to our disadvantage, but the lack of collection of these moneys is certainly a cause for great concern. It is even more startling to realise how this shortfall has been met because, if moneys are not paid, the amount must be made up elsewhere. The Minister said this happened in various ways but I intended to deal with one, the £10.125 million in annual grants to vocational education committees. I greatly regret that VECs have been singled out for this treatment. I hope the Minister will be able to explain why we have not got the money from Europe and tell us also if other countries have also been left short of funding. From my knowledge of the operation of the system of ESF funding, the staff operating the schemes in third level committees and colleges have been at their wits' end to cope with the flood of paperwork relating to this fund. If the Department see that this is so the embargo on appointing clerical workers should be lifted. We have not pressed our case for this money and the Department of Education have been left short. That raises a major question.

We are only now hearing the reason behind the long delay in informing VECs of their 1986 budgets and of the severe strictures placed on them after they had incurred their annual costs. The Department of Education sent harsh letters to VECs informing them that their allocations for spending would have to be revised. These letters arrived in June when half the working year had elapsed. It was very hard at that stage to produce revised budgets and, after a lot of haggling and many meetings, they received permission to raise the necessary money by way of an overdraft, which is very unsatisfactory. There are various shortfall savings to which the Minister referred including secondary teachers' incremental salary grants amounting to £1.655 million. The VEC colleges were further singled out with a saving of £2 million under subhead G.

Therefore, the two questions which have arisen on the Estimate, and on which I am sure my colleague, Deputy Fitzgerald, will elaborate on further, are first of all the shortfall which was left in the original Estimate for capital works at primary level. I do not accept the pretext which is being put forward that this is due to capital works in primary schools being ahead of schedule. There is a huge need for capital works in this area and the need which has been articulated very strongly all over the country. The second question is the non-receipt of over £13 million which is due to us from the European Social Fund for VEC colleges throughout the country. This has had to be offset by a reduction of £10 million in the amount of grants available to VECs committees and by a shortfall in the second level system. I look forward to hearing the Minister's reply.

De gháth nuair a thagann meastacháin bhreise os comhair na Dála fáiltímid uilig romhu agus roimh breis airgid a thabhairt do chúrsaí oideachais. Ach ag breathnú go géar ar an gcáipéis a thug an tAire dúinn, is é sin ar na gnéithe a bhaineann le furmhór na meastachán breise atá os ár gcomhair inniú tá mé beagáinín amhrasach, mar baineann na gnéithe sin le cúrsaí tógála foirgneamh agus an t-airgead atá le fáil ón ESF agus na cúiseanna atá leis na deacrachtai sna gnéithe sin.

Mar sin, cé go gcaithfidh mé, is dócha, fáilte a chur roimh breis airgid a chur an fáil, ag an am céanna, caithfidh mé a chur in iúl go deimhin agus go cinnte don Aire go bhfuil mé amhrasach faoin módh bainistíochta i gcursaí airgid sa Roinn agus an módh in a gcuireann an tAire, an Roinn agus an Rialtas airgead ar fáil do ghnéithe atá chomh tábhachtach don oideachas.

Normally, the spokesperson on this side of the House would welcome any additional funds which were made available for education as one would expect these additional funds would be intended to improve services and building programmes and to ensure the delivery of a much better educational service to the students. If that were the case on this occasion, our attitude would be unambiguously one of welcome. I have not had a great opportunity to look at the Minister's speech but, as I look at it, I am not so convinced. I am doubtful and suspect as to the approach to educational provision on an annual basis.

As my colleague correctly reminded the House, last year on the Estimates debate she pointed out that there was a shortfall of £6 million in the capital programme. Her words have proved to be quite prophetic. She recognised that the level of operations in 1985 could not be sustained during 1986. The additional provisions contained in the Minister's statement today proves that conclusively to the House. It was quite correct then to state that there was a very serious under-provision to meet the capital requirements in national schools.

I feel compelled to refer to the salient points with regard to this Estimate. During the course of Question Time a few weeks ago in this House, both my colleague and I put a number of questions to the Minister of State with regard to the conditions throughout the primary school building programme in the existing primary schools. What emerged from that question and answer session was a picture of primary schools in certain parts of the country, if not in all, which could be described as Dickensian. We were well back into the last century in terms of the type of building and its inappropriateness to meet the educational needs at primary level in the 20th century. As has been stated earlier, the physical conditions in many of these schools were such that if health inspectors were called in they would immediately condemn them as being most unsuitable. In some cases they had to be called in and they condemned them as unsuitable for young children, apart from their serious inadequacies in terms of meeting the conditions to provide a modern educational service today for primary school pupils.

While the additional sum of £4.766 million provided must be given a guarded welcome, it will not in any significant way go along the road towards addressing the serious problems which could have been addressed by arranging for a reasonably adequate provision in line with 1985, with a marginal increase. That should have been the bottom line for the capital programme this year but it was not. In that respect I will have to be equally condemnatory of the overall under-provision.

I must say I, too, am quite struck by the first paragraph of the Minister's statement on primary education and our spokesperson referred to it. The Minister in that paragraph said that the additional funds are required to meet commitments which have to be met in the current year as many projects are ahead of schedule due to factors affecting the construction industry. In Ireland we like to blame the weather for many things and sometimes the farmers do seem to have a certain justification for invoking the weather as one of the——

Enemies of the people.

——enemies of the farming people but I find it difficult to accept that this additional provision can be explained in this way. Both my senior colleague and I were very critical about the serious under-provision in the original Estimate. While we both welcome any capital programme, this seems more like an opportunity to advance programmes at a particularly acute or appropriate time in our political term.

While we welcome money and additional resources, I am sure most people involved in education, be they teachers, parents, students or people like ourselves who are interested in education, would have preferred that a management programme on the capital side would have been carried out in a more cohesive forward looking way rather than this kind of intimate and what could be regarded as opportunistic additional top-up. If that is not what it is that is fine but it comes across to me in that way. I am very sceptical and can only give it a guarded welcome.

While the statement seems to be very clear in some respects I am unable to respond to some of the subheads that have been introduced because I am not too sure where or how savings have been effected. One that strikes me as odd is in subhead C.5 under the primary section. There was a saving of £.100 million on capitation grants towards operating costs of national schools. My colleague referred to this and I understand she has had representations about it from every county. I can only refer to this in a Dublin context. I am baffled as to how there could be a saving in this area, given the extraordinary and sometimes very stressful burden that has been placed on boards of management to supplement, or in some cases to double, the capitation grant in order to provide a reasonable level of equipment for primary school students. Almost all the schools on the north side of Dublin are in financial difficulty. I could say with a reasonable degree of authority that not one of them has wasted the resources that have been given to them.

Perhaps there is a simple explanation for the saving. Maybe there was a specific provision given or a fall-off in the intake of pupils but, as I understand it, the provision under this subhead was totally inadequate. I am sure the Minister will agree that schools in disadvantaged areas, while they certainly have the people, do not have the kind of resources necessary to undertake significant voluntary fund-raising in order to supplement limited funds. They have been particularly badly hit by the capitation grants system over the past number of years. We meet members of boards of management who do not know what to do about this. They undertake voluntary fund-raising but find they are unable to make up a shortfall of, in some cases, £30,000. They say they have exhausted every kind of resource possible but it does not work. There is very little one can say except to question the provision in the capitation grants system. The Minister may have some simple answer as to how there could be a saving in this area but it baffles me.

As regards the post primary sector, I am very interested in the ESF funds. The Minister referred to a fall-off in take-up of some of the these courses. My colleague has already asked him to deal with that. Where does the fault lie? Does it lie with the Department or with the colleges? The Minister stated:

The major part of the shortfall, however, amounting to some £13.489 million, is due to a delay on the part of the ESF in the making of payments as the result of which moneys expected in 1986 will not be received until 1987.

This is very serious. It has already been referred to as bureaucratic bungling. There is bungling somewhere if this is the case. My understanding of the system is that in the main a lot of the work is processed through the VECs. This work was taken on by the VECs as a result of requests to them to process claims for ESF funds. Is the Minister aware of the many reports from various committees regarding the difficulties they had in meeting the requirements here? In the case of the City of Dublin VEC they have approximately 60 centres to deal with and about 38 of them are outside the city VEC. What we are talking about is the processing of a system of payments which has to be set up for each student. Daily records have to be kept, data from the different centres has to be processed, deductions and additions in respect of attendance have to be made and so on. Will the Minister agree that it was crazy for the Department to expect the VECs to take on this work when they were not prepared to accept that there was need for additional administrative staff? That need has not been recognised. It is sad to think that if additional staff had been appointed to process these claims, most of the £13.5 million which we are now short of could have been collected. We could have recouped some of it and there would have been no net expense to the State. The overall position would have been a gain for this year. If that is not the position, why? Where exactly has this very substantial shortfall taken place?

I come now to the question of where the savings were effected. Savings were effected with regard to annual grants to VECs. During Question Time in the House recently it was pointed out that the VECs were very substantially unprovided for, even in relation to their necessary funding last year. If that is what is being accounted for here, it is sad that has to come about. As the Minister is well aware, the vocational education schools around Dublin — and I am sure in many parts of the country — are providing services, in the main, for the disadvantaged in our community. In some cases, because of the underprovision, classes in areas particularly involving annual renewable equipment have to be stopped. They will very likely be stopped before the end of this school year.

I have to ask the Minister to respond with regard to allocations for committees. The system is not satisfactory and is not working very well. Perhaps there are reasons in the Minister's Department. Perhaps there are fears there in relation to smoother processing of allocations. I ask the Minister to look again at the manner in which responses emanate in reply to queries from committees to clarify their precise allocations. I look forward to hearing from him.

Before I ask the Minister to conclude the debate, under a Standing Order of 29 April last the Deputies have the right to make interventions if they so wish, to ask further questions before I call on the Minister to respond. He has 15 minutes to reply.

We have asked all the questions we wish to ask. Is the Minister going to answer them?

As best I can. First, I should like to list the questions I have been asked relating to savings on primary teachers, subhead C.1; capitation grants, subhead C.5; the underestimation, so described, in the capital for primary education, a couple of questions in relation to the ESF and then the level of examination fees which was also raised by Deputy O'Rourke.

The first point I should like to make is that the education budget is in excess of £1 billion, some 18 per cent of GNP. That is an immence amount of money and we are now coming to the end of the year in which that immense amount of money has to be administered. As Deputies will realise from my opening statement, when the end of the year comes there will be an excess, it looks at the moment, of just £0.5 million. It is quite possible that further minor adjustments between now and the end of the year will substantially reduce that sum. I should like to pay tribute to the efficiency of the administrators of my Department in managing a budget of £1,000 million in a difficult financial year, in a complex area of administration and at the end of the year coming out with an excess of less than £0.5 million, a variation of a half of 1 per cent. That is good budgeting and good administration. I should like to say that at the outset.

On the specific questions, the savings on primary teachers' pay and capitation grants, subheads C.1 and C.5 are related and both are attributable to the fact that the numbers coming into the primary school system in 1986 were less than budgeted for. That is the reason. As the Deputy will know, the numbers of teachers are related to the numbers of pupils in the system. The capitation grants are even more directly referable to the numbers in the system. The numbers that entered were less than anticipated and, consequently, the demand for teachers — and, therefore, teachers' salaries and capitation grants — was reduced.

Has the Minister those numbers?

I have not the precise numbers here. Deputy Fitzgerald regrets that there should be any saving under the heading of capitation grants having regard to the need for various minor works in schools and he mentioned in particular the disadvantaged areas in this city. I sympathise with his point of view but we cannot use a saving on capitation grants for some other purpose. The capitation grant is based specifically on the number of pupils. What we have done, as the Deputies are aware, is to provide separate funds to the tune of £0.75 million to give special aids to schools in needy areas and to schools needing special help. That sum was paid this year. There was an increase of some 50 per cent on the amount made available in 1985 which was £0.5 million. The bulk of that money was payable in Dublin but some was also payable in Cork and Limerick and, I think, Waterford although I stand to be corrected on the last. This was to ease the position in the type of school about which Deputy Fitzgerald spoke.

I have to take issue with that Deputy in that he spoke in exaggerated terms about the conditions in our schools and gave the impression that the vast bulk of them are Dickensian and are educational slums. That is not so. In fact, a small minority of schools would have acute physical problems in relation to the standard of the buildings but it would be wrong to give an impression that the majority of our school buildings are in poor condition.

That leads me on to the next point made by Deputy O'Rourke when she noted the increase provided for in the capital fund, from £28 million to £33 million. She implied, or may even have said specifically — and Deputy Fitzgerald supported her on this — that the amount originally provided was inadequate. She made the point when the Estimates were being presented that they were inadequate by the simple measure of comparing what is provided this year with what was provided last year. What is provided for this year was adequate for the programme that was intended for this year. That was not any reduction in normal building volume. The previous year and the year before that there had been enhanced activity. It was decided that for this year we would revert to the normal rate of building activity. For reasons which are difficult to define, but there is not doubt that the weather is involved — Deputy O'Rourke is inclined to be a little sceptical——

I am vastly sceptical.

The weather, particularly in the latter half of the year, is a matter of prime importance as to the rate of building.

It can be seen how the school at Carnamona went up.

The Deputy has mentioned that local school at home in which we are both interested.

The Minister will be opening it yet.

I look forward to opening it. I hope that the Deputy will be there.

I shall come along.

I hope she will attend on the day. She will be a very welcome guest. That is a real and important reason. Another reason is that the building industry are efficient at the moment and very keen. That tends to get projects through more quickly. We found there was an accelerated demand. The Deputy may smile.

I am enjoying this.

This is true. I know it is disappointing to have the bone of scepticism taken away from the Deputy and replaced by hard reality.

Not at all. We are having a great time.

There was further pressure on the capital programme. To suggest that delaying tactics are employed by me or by my Department in sanctioning projects is unjust and unfair to me and my officials. There has to be a phased sanctioning of projects.

They are scattering——

One cannot let these things run helter skelter without having some consideration for the public purse. The Deputy said that the Minister of State, Deputy Kenny, mentioned 800 projects.

The Minister quibbled about £5,000 for Ballyfermot——

The Deputy must listen to reality. I am sure there are about 800 projects around the country but that is an immense figure in terms of capital commitment. Even to average £200,000 per project, which is probably low, would amount to £160 million. We are getting into sums of an enormous magnitude and the demands on the Exchequer for sums of that kind have to be controlled and phased. On this side of the House one says it is controlled phasing, but on the other side one says they are delaying tactics for vile political reasons. You take your pick. I am saying that because of the size of the sum being dealt with, the number of projects and the complexities of having the pipeline filled and emptied smoothly we have to approach this carefully. That is the explanation. It is not a delaying tactic as such because we have the money.

And there will be no big rush of announcements shortly?

Is the Minister giving us a guarantee on that?

There will always be appropriate announcements of anticipated programmes. It is only right that the Deputies opposite and the people in the educational world would know what we intend doing and what the building programme will be.

An immense amount of work is being done and there are significant and substantial improvements being made in the standards of our schools. Deputies should remember that the year after next, for the first time in our history, the number of children entering the primary school system will be fewer than for the preceding year. That puts a big question mark over future development plans of school buildings at all levels. We are moving away from the present position where we can more or less expect to have threshold national schools. It will be a big political problem in the future to convince parents that because there is an empty school one and a half miles away, they will have to send their children there and not expect a new school on their doorstep.

We will be into bussing.

This is an area which will have to be addressed in the near future. On the question of examination fees, I would like to see them reduced but they are not at a burdensome level for the vast majority of pupils. There is a minority of pupils from homes in poor economic circumstances where these fees are a burden, but there is a discretionary fund.

But it is not wide enough.

The principal has pretty wide discretion as to how it is to be distributed. I have never heard of any pupil who failed to sit an exam for want of a fee.

They can collect fees on a weekly basis.

There are homes of economic deprivation where these fees could inflict real hardship. I take the point Deputy O'Rourke made that the religious have paid fees, but lay head masters have paid fees for students out of their own pockets, too. This is a distressing problem when it emerges but it is not a widespread problem. Nevertheless, if the discretionary fund is too restrictive we can look at it to see if more discretion can be given.

The last point raised was in relation to the European Social Fund. Again I have to take issue with the Deputies opposite. Because there was a delay in payment of the fund, they immediately assumed there was a bureaucratic bungle at home. Why do we have this constant sense of inferiority that we cannot do things right?

We did not get it right this time.

There was no delay in our application to the fund. The delay was due to European machinations of a financial or administrative sort——

Did we look for it——

——I will leave them to explain. We pressed as hard as we could to get the money, but this is a sensitive area for many reasons. We had our application in in time and I have no doubt we will be paid as soon as possible, but in the meantime we have to wait until the money comes. That is the first reason there has been a shortfall. The delay was not on this side of the Continent.

Why so much this year and not other years?

Because that relates to the European Community. There are considerable budgetary difficulties within the Community. If the Minister for Agriculture or the Minister for Finance were here he would be able to give Deputies a more detailed run down on that.

I accept the Minister believes what he is saying, but I feel it could have been pressed much more vigorously.

This is not a question of making representations——

I am not talking about representations.

——through Marlboro' Street or through your local Deputy. That is not the way Europe works and I hope it never will. Our application was in in time and the European budget is in some difficulties. I do not want to say any more than that.

The other area in which there was a shortfall was because the numbers taking up the places was less than anticipated. It was not lack of places. The numbers coming forward for the middle level technician and the VTPT courses were down on what was anticipated. That meant there was a net shortfall in the European Social Fund. In budgeting for the European Social Fund you budget for a maximum because if there is a drop it will be both in the Exchequer liability and the contribution from Europe. I think I have covered all the points raised by the Deputies.

The Minister did not comment on the committee's problems in processing claims.

That has not been a factor in delaying the claims, but that is getting into a very precise area in relation to the administration of the VECs which is outside this debate. I am aware that committees complain they do not have enough staff or administrative back up, but may I conclude on an anecdote which is not typical but has a little warning? A vocational educational committee not far from where Deputy O'Rourke and I live overspent what was in their budget for travelling and subsistence by about June or July. They held a meeting in camera and decided to take money from their building funds to cover their travel and subsistence.

It was not Westmeath.

No. Of course, the meeting in camera was really secret but the local paper happily got the information and the committee's irresponsibility was exposed. I mention that as an anecdote to show that everything is not our fault. We have to be very careful about this.

That anecdote is singular in its application.

I am grateful to the Deputies for their contributions.

Vote put and agreed to.
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