Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 7 Apr 1987

Vol. 371 No. 8

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take items Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6 and 9. It is also proposed that the Dáil sit later than 9 p.m. today and not later than 11 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m. today.

It is further proposed that Nos. 3 and 4 be taken without debate. It is further proposed that the proceedings on No. 5 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 5 p.m. today. It is further proposed that the proceedings on No. 6 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 7 p.m. today.

It is further proposed that notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, statements on housing grants shall be made at 8.30 p.m. today and the following arrangements shall apply:

(1) The Minister for the Environment shall be called on at 8.30 p.m. to make an opening statement which shall not exceed 30 minutes and shall be called on not later than 10.15 p.m. to make a statement in reply;

(2) The statements of all other speakers shall not exceed 30 minutes;

(3) No member other than the Minister for the Environment shall make more than one statement;

and the order shall not resume thereafter.

Private Members' Business shall be item No. 26.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is proposed to take Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6 and 9 today. It is proposed that the Dáil will sit later than 9 p.m. today and not later than 11 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m. today. Is that agreed? Agreed. It is further proposed that Nos. 3 and 4 be taken without debate. Is that agreed?

Tomás Mac Giolla

Are you putting each item on the Order of Business now or do we discuss it when the complete Order of Business has been mentioned? I would like to raise a point, before agreement, on items Nos. 3 and 4.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I suggest you raise it now if you are not in agreement.

Tomás Mac Giolla

Item No. 3 is the motion regarding appointment of Committee of Selection. This committee appoints all other committees of the House. During the last Dáil our party were excluded from all committees of the House. Before we can agree to this, I want some indication that that ban will not be imposed in the new Dáil session and that we will get our fair share of committees, as every other Deputy is entitled to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am not sure to what extent I can satisfy the Deputy, but this is governed by Standing Orders which set down what constitutes a party, namely membership of not fewer than seven. Since the Deputy's party does not have the required number, their non-inclusion to which he has referred has been justified.

Tomás Mac Giolla

That is precisely the point. If this motion is dealing with the membership of the Committee of Selection we would like to be represented on that committee in order to put our point of view.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy's wishes and my likes are different things, but this is governed by Standing Orders. I regret I am not in a position to alter Standing Orders to provide the accommodation he wishes.

Tomás Mac Giolla

I know, but through you I am naturally speaking to the Government. I had hoped they would respond by giving some indication that we will get our fair share of representation on committees.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

What the Deputy said will be noted in the Official Report of the proceedings. Is this agreed?

Tomás Mac Giolla

We could not agree to this without debate if the end result will be that once again we are excluded, as we were for the past four years, from representation on any committee of this House. I want to know if there is any alteration in attitude——

The Taoiseach

I understand that is not the intention.

Tomás Mac Giolla

I accept that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Taoiseach said that what the Deputy feared was not the Government's intention. Does the House agree that items Nos. 3 and 4 will be taken without debate? Agreed. It is further proposed that the proceedings on item No. 5 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 5 p.m. today. Is that agreed? Agreed. It is further proposed that the proceedings on item No. 6 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 7 p.m. today. Is that agreed? Agreed.

It is further proposed that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, statements on housing grants shall be made at 8.30 p.m. today and the following arrangements shall apply: the Minister for the Environment shall be called on at 8.30 p.m. to make an opening statement which shall not exceed 30 minutes and shall be called on not later than 10.15 p.m. to make a statement in reply; the statements of all other speakers shall not exceed 30 minutes; no Member other than the Minister for the Environment shall make more than one statement; and the order shall not resume thereafter. Is that agreed?

Mr. Spring

In relation to the latter part of your statement, while no one in this House could object to the taking of statements on this fiasco we have had in the past seven days in relation to housing grants. I have to take objection to the manner in which the order is being made. First, our party were not consulted in relation to the allocation of time. We are entitled to be consulted on such matters. Secondly, in the division of time where no person shall have more than 30 minutes, and the Minister for the Environment will reply for 15 minutes, this means our party will be entitled to only 15 minutes. I do not consider that to be fair. As this is the first opportunity in the Dáil for statements to be made to the House, there is a danger of a precedent being created in relation to statements. I cannot accept that. Unfortunately, as of now, we have not a Committee on Procedure and Privileges. If we had, I would be asking for a meeting of that body to consider this. I plead with the Taoiseach — I do not want to have to rise every day on the Order of Business to object to the proceedings — that between now and 6 p.m. alternative arrangements be made regarding the time allocated so that all the Members of the House can have an opportunity of speaking. A fair proportion of time should be allotted for the parties. I appeal to the Taoiseach, rather than have confrontation daily on the Order of Business, that between now and 6 p.m., which is the last time available for arranging the Order of Business, that the Whips make alternative arrangements.

Miss Harney

Like Deputy Spring, we were not consulted about this item. I was informed of it by officials of the House before being telephoned by the Chief Whip's office. Last Thursday I sought advice from officials of this House and from the Ceann Comhairle as to whether this party could table the contents of motion No. 29 which is about this matter, as our Private Members' motion for this week. I was told by the Ceann Comhairle and the advisers in the House that we would not be able to do so because as this was a budgetary item it could not be raised during the course of discussion of the budget. In the light of that, it is wrong that a party were denied the opportunity of debating it in Private Members' time when on the very same night an opportunity is now being given — under I do not know what kind of precedent — for this matter to be discussed. Despite that, we welcome an opportunity to discuss the difficulties which have arisen and to seek clarification so that the public, and particularly those concerned, can be reassured as to what the Government's intentions are in relation to this matter. Finally, I say to the Taoiseach that I hope each party will be given an opportunity of at least 30 minutes to outline their position on this matter. I agree with Deputy Spring that if that requires the time to be extended it should be done.

Mr. Dukes

I did not intend to make any point in relation to this matter as I agree with the Order of Business but I should like to take this opportunity of expressing to the House my satisfaction that my party have been instrumental in ensuring that this matter is debated this evening. On a related topic, may I ask the Taoiseach if he will give an assurance to the House that full details of any further clarifications, reconsiderations, turns, somersaults, or any changes of that nature——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is now out of order.

Mr. Dukes

——will be given to the House immediately so that we can proceed in a proper manner——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order and he should resume his seat.

Mr. Dukes

——to debate item No. 9 on today's Order Paper.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order.

The Taoiseach

The Government felt it would be a welcome offer on their part that extra time be given to the House for Deputies to make statements on this matter. I am not too clear on the import of the suggestion of Deputy Spring or Deputy Harney to me. The time has been allocated for these statements and I would have thought it is then a matter for the Chair to decide on calling speakers. If there is a point which has escaped me, perhaps Deputy Spring will enlighten me.

Mr. Spring

I did not think much escaped the Taoiseach. With half an hour for each speaker, the Labour Party speaker will be called at 10 p.m. and the order is such that the Minister will be called at 10.15 to conclude. It is simple arithmetic.

Miss Harney

I agree with that. Can I also say to the Taoiseach——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I expect that the Taoiseach will conclude on this matter.

Miss Harney

Can I also say to the Taoiseach in case he is not aware that a new procedure has developed in this House whereby there is special treatment for one Opposition Whip who refuses to attend the meetings with the other Opposition Whips, probably because his party do not like to think they have further Opposition on this side of the House. I would like the Taoiseach to assure us that arrangements like this will not be made in future, at least without discussion or consultation. It is our intention to be helpful and all we would like is to be consulted before we are told by officials of the House that a matter is being taken. That happened this afternoon.

Mr. Dukes

The Deputy has a short memory.

Miss Harney

The Deputy should start attending the meetings.

Mr. Spring

In an effort to be helpful to the Taoiseach, may I ask that the order of the House be extended until 10.45 p.m.?

Mr. Desmond

That would give half an hour to each speaker.

The Taoiseach

Certainly.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed. Private Members' motion will be No. 26.

Mr. Dukes

On the Order of Business, may I ask the Taoiseach if it is true, as has been reported in today's newspapers, that yesterday's meeting between the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Dukes

I am asking for a piece of information.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Order of Business, Deputy.

Mr. Dukes

I am asking for a piece of information and there is ample precedent, Sir, as you know perfectly well in the procedures of this House——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not know. As the Deputy knows, it does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Dukes

All I want to ask the Taoiseach is if a date was not set yesterday for a meeting of the Anglo-Irish Conference, why?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order. It does not arise on the Order of Business. Item No. 3.

Mr. Dukes

May I seek your guidance. Sir?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Barrett.

Mr. S. Barrett

I had a Private Notice Question, which was disallowed, to ask the Minister for Justice the reason he failed to bring into effect those sections of the Criminal Justice Act, 1984, dealing with the powers of the Garda when investigating crimes——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has been informed that the question is out of order.

Mr. S. Barrett

——which had been scheduled to come into effect on 6 April. I respect the Chair and the only reason I rise is to ask if I may raise this matter on the Adjournment?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Deenihan

I would like to raise on the Adjournment the matter of the threatened closure of Cappanalea Outdoor Activity Centre which is causing much concern in Kerry.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Howlin

I tried to raise the question of the worsening condition of the health services arising out of the Minister's directive. Can I raise that matter on the Adjournment?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Minister for Health announced in the Dáil that he was introducing regulations to charge £10 per day maintenance charge in hospitals. Can he indicate when those regulations will be brought before the House and when we will be given an opportunity to debate them?

Minister for Health (Dr. O'Hanlon)

They are being prepared at the moment.

Proinsias De Rossa

My question was when will we have an opportuntiy to debate it in the House.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

I would like to raise on the Adjournment the proposed sale by University College, Cork of a major portion of Fota House and the Italian Gardens arboretum in the Cork region.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Dukes

I would like to ask why you have seen fit not to allow the leader of the Opposition to ask on the Order of Business an item of information from the Taoiseach while you have allowed, quite properly, another member of my party to ask the Minister for Health an item of information. I submit to you, Sir, that my request a few moments ago was perfectly in keeping with the tradition, the custom and the practice of this House and was perfectly in keeping with the actions of your predecessor——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. Dukes

——and indeed with the practice that was followed while the present Taoiseach was leader of the Opposition.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy resume his seat, please. My actions are in entire agreement with the headlines set by my esteemed predecessor, the Ceann Comhairle.

Mr. Dukes

I hate to take issue with you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and I hope you will accept this——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

On the Order of Business we take questions relating to promised legislation. The question presented by Deputy De Rossa referred to promised legislation.

Mr. Dukes

Precedent in this House indicates that matters of current interest can be the subject of a request——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy knows that he is out of order.

Mr. Dukes

I make this point in a totally non-acerbic way. I do not know why you have chosen to take such a view today in ruling this matter out of order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will deal with these matters as I see fit.

Mr. Dukes

You have ruled out of order requests for information that are perfectly in keeping with the traditions and practice of this House.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. S. Barrett

When I was a Government Whip it was always the custom that the Leaders of the main Opposition party was extended the courtesy of the Chair to ask the Taoiseach questions in relation to matters which the Leader of the main Opposition party is now asking. I fail to see——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Resume your seat, please.

Mr. S. Barrett

I wish to protest very strongly at the fact that the Leader of the main Opposition party was not allowed to——

Mr. O'Brien

The Chair is protecting the Government.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Fergus O'Brien to withdraw that remark.

Mr. O'Brien

I will explain my remark——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

You do not have to explain it; I am asking you to withdraw it.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask Deputy O'Brien to withdraw the statement that the Chair is protecting the Government.

Mr. O'Brien

You will only get order in the House if you command respect. The Leader of the Opposition——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not need any lectures from the Deputy.

Mr. O'Brien

The Leader of the Opposition has always had——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am asking Deputy Fergus O'Brien to withdraw his statement that the Chair is protecting the Government.

Mr. O'Brien

I will not withdraw my remark.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Then the Deputy will leave the House.

Deputy O'Brien withdrew.

Mr. McDowell

Could I ask the Taoiseach when it is proposed to produce the revised Estimates on which the budget debate is being carried on?

The Taoiseach

The full Book of Estimates has gone for printing today.

Mr. M. Higgins

When is it envisaged to have the Status of Children Bill before the House? I also wish to know whether the Children (Care and Protection) Bill, the Adoption Bill and the Status of Children Bill will be taken together. I am particularly concerned with the Status of Children Bill.

The Taoiseach

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. J. Mitchell

Could I ask the Chair, in view of his ruling on the question asked by the Leader of the Opposition, if he will allow similar questions tomorrow and on subsequent days?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair indicates that in view of what he has been listening to here for years, it is not the practice to raise on the Order of Business reports that appeared in the weekend newspapers.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Dukes

Your recollection is totally at variance with that of almost every other Member of this House because it has long been the practice——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Has the Deputy something to say on the Order of Business?

Mr. Dukes

It has long been the practice that the Opposition may request information from the Taoiseach about matters of current interest or importance. If the Chair feels — and this has been the practice — that the matter is not of current importance, about which there may be some disagreement, the Chair can rule it out of order. If the Chair believes that the matter should be more properly raised in a debate on the Order of the House or by way of a question on the Adjournment——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair will not take any lectures from Deputy Dukes or anybody else. I have ruled that it is not in order to raise on the Order of Business——

Mr. Dukes

It is in order to seek information on matters of current importance on the Order of Business and I strongly protest at your ruling.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Your protestation is noted.

Mr. Dukes

My protestation will not end here because I intend to bring it to the Ceann Comhairle.

Mr. T. Fitzpatrick

My colleague, Deputy Boylan, sought to raise by way of a Private Notice Question the dangerous and defective state of Drung national school, County Cavan, which led to a fire there recently. I accept your ruling that the question was out of order but I now seek permission to raise it on the Adjournment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): I wish to raise on the Adjournment the serious leaks from the Cabinet which were reported in Sunday's newspapers. Has the Taoiseach any plans to stop future incidents of breaches of Cabinet responsibility?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. G. Mitchell

The Taoiseach promised to introduce legislation in regard to building by-law regulations arising from the report on the explosions at Raglan House and Dolphin House. As this is urgent, when may we expect this legislation?

The Taoiseach

I cannot give a specific date but we award priority to such legislation and I will ask the Chief Whip to communicate with the Deputy in that regard.

Miss Flaherty

I should like to raise on the Adjournment the announcement in this evening's newspapers that the Government do not intend to proceed with the opening of Beaumont Hospital?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Dr. O'Hanlon

A question was asked about that last week.

Proinsias De Rossa

Will the Minister indicate when the regulations to implement the charge of £10 daily in hospitals will be brought before the House? The Minister indicated that they were in the course of preparation. Could he indicate if and when such regulations will be brought before the House?

The Taoiseach

Regulations are not brought before the House.

Proinsias De Rossa

So the Dáil will not have an opportunity to discuss or vote on these regulations?

The Taoiseach

I am sure Members of the House will find many different ways of raising any matters which they regard as important.

Proinsias De Rossa

But not the regulations.

Miss Flaherty

I should like the Chair to clarify whether it has been the practice in the House to accept a question from the Leader of the Opposition in relation to matters of important——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have adjudicated on that matter already.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not the practice to allow such questions.

Miss Flaherty

It was quite regularly the practice to ask for a debate or statements on matters relating to foreign affairs, especially in regard to Northern Ireland.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will resume her seat.

Mr. J. Mitchell

You have said that it has not been the practice to allow questions in this regard. However, if Deputies bring precedents for this to your notice, are you prepared to withdraw your ruling and to apologise to the House?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will not withdraw what I know is correct. I am adhering specifically to the traditions and order of this Chair.

Mr. J. Mitchell

You are not——

Mr. Dukes

Before you proceed to the first item——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Has the Deputy a question on the Order of Business?

Mr. Dukes

On foot of your ruling, I wish to state formally that I intend to ask a question in exactly the same manner on the Order of Business tomorrow. In the meantime——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It will be dealt with in exactly the same way.

Mr. Dukes

I intend to put together a series of precedents——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

They will be dealt with in exactly the same way. Will the Leader of the Opposition allow us to proceed with the business of the House?

Mr. Dukes

If these matters are treated tomorrow in the same way as they have been treated today I will take my party out of the House.

(Interruptions.)