I, with regret, move: "That Deputy Sherlock be suspended from the service of the Dáil."
Suspension of Member.
A Cheann Comhairle——
Deputy, I give you a last chance to leave the House before I put the motion.
This is a democratic society.
Question put: That Deputy Sherlock be suspended from the service of the Dáil."
Because of the seriousness of the decision made at that meeting——
Question declared carried.
The Deputy will now leave the House. Is the Deputy refusing to leave the House? In that case, I have no option but to adjourn the proceedings for a quarter of an hour.
Sitting suspended at 3.50 p.m. and resumed at 4.05 p.m.
We will resume on Item No. 6, the National Monuments (Amendment) Bill, 1986.
On a point of order——
I am sorry. I have passed on to the next Item.
On a point of order——
I insist that we now proceed to the next business. I will not hear the Deputy. The Deputy may raise the matter in the morning if he so wishes. Item No. 6, the National Monuments (Amendment) Bill, 1986, from the Seanad. Deputy Gerard Brady is in possession.
On a point of order, I wish to observe very mildly and noncontentiously that I hope, Sir, you will agree with us that, once you have estalished that there is agreement on the Order of Business and before moving to the first item, you will allow Members of the House an opportunity to raise with you items which they believe are in order and which are proper to raise on the Order of Business. I know your concern is to conduct the business of the House with proper dispatch. I fully support you in that and recognise that you may in your wisdom decide that the matters Deputies raised with you may not be in order and we should accept your ruling on that.
With regard to issues which Deputies wish to raise in the House you should at least give us the opportunity on the Order of Business to ventilate the matters for your decision as to whether or not they are in order and for your decision subsequently as to whether or not to allow time for them in the House. I ask you, Sir, with regard to the matter which Deputy Birmingham and another colleague wish to raise that you would at least hear them and then decide whether or not the matters are in order and, if they are, what course of action to take.
I am sorry but I cannot agree with Deputy Dukes in this regard. The Deputy is aware——
I indicated that I wish to speak on the health services and this is being ignored.
Deputy Allen, the Chair is on his feet. I am proceeding now in accordance with the Order of Business as agreed by this House to deal with Item No. 6.
On a point of order I wish to raise the matter——
With the utmost respect for the Chair and with the greatest concern for the order of the House may I say that it has normally been the practice of the Chair in this House, once he has secured agreement on the Order of Business, to raise his head and look at the House to establish whether or not Deputies wish to raise matters. I fully understand your concern with carrying out the business of the House properly.
The Deputy——
You are about to make my point. It is a matter of some concern to me, and I am sure the Taoiseach and other Members of the House, that we spend time on the Order of Business arguing about whether or not matters should be raised. If you allow questions to be put before you, you can rule on them with your customary exactitude so that we can avoid spending time arguing about whether or not we should hear the matters.
I am sorry that we are still arguing about the Order of Business. So far as I am concerned the Order of Business has been disposed of. We had the suspension of a Member and I had called Item No. 6. I am not backtracking in regard to the procedure in this House. Deputies who wish to raise matters on the Order of Business may do so in the morning.
I will raise what I proposed to raise today on the Order of Business tomorrow morning. I want to say briefly, by way of a point of order, that when you read the Order of Business I and a number of other Deputies stood up. You called on the Leader of my party who made a point you found valid. You then called on Deputy Sherlock who raised a point you did not find acceptable. At that stage you indicated that you were not going to allow any other Deputy to put a question on the Order of Business. It is my submission that what I wanted to raise was palpably within the traditions of what is proper on the Order of Business. It was a matter which I suspect would have been welcomed by the Taoiseach because it would give the Government an opportunity to state in a more leisurely and considered way their attitude to ESB strike. I will not go into the merits of that now. I will raise it on the Order of Business tomorrow morning. I protest that it is quite unacceptable that you should decide arbitrarily at some stage——
Members of the House will understand fully the element of disorder which prevailed in the Chamber a short time ago——
Not on this side of the House.
I should like to ask Members to assist the Chair in getting on with orderly business rather than impeding the Chair in any way.
We have been anxious to do so but it is the case that when you were dealing with Deputy Sherlock you indicated that Deputy Sherlock was the only Deputy who was going to be called and that is unacceptable.
I had distinctly called Item No. 6 some considerable time before. We must move on.
I should like to raise a point of order.
I will not hear any further points of order.
I should like permission to raise a matter on the Adjournment.
It is too late for that.
I should like to raise a point of order.
Does the Deputy wish to be put out of the House?
I do not.
On the Order of Business I should like to ask you to make it a practice when you have secured agreement on the Order of Business, which we do not wish to impede at all, to look to the House to establish whether Deputies from whatever side of the House wish to raise matters either on the Order of Business or on the Adjournment and that you satisfy yourself that there are no further demands before you proceed with the business. I can assure you that from this side of the House we will simply raise the matters, look for your ruling and not proceed any further with them. It would be useful and beneficial for the order of the House if you were to do that rather than, if I may say so, keeping your head down and forgoing on with the business before the House.
Deputy Dukes may be assured that Members will be given the utmost consideration in that regard. For his information I should like to say that in respect of the Order of Business it is the prerogative of the Taoiseach to nominate the Order of Business. I am not obliged to put that to the House unless contained in the Taoiseach's Order of Business is something extraneous such as a curtailment of debate and so on. Then, and only then, do I put the matter to the House.
I suggest, with respect, that it is not the Taoiseach's prerogative, nor does he claim it, to decide whether there are matters which Deputies wish to raise in order on the Order of Business. You are the only one who can do that.
That is a different matter and the Chair will take good care of that.
You will be unable to do it unless you look to the House to establish whether there are Members who wish to raise those matters. I suggest to you that it is better to look to the House once the Order of Business has been established to decide that rather than carrying on here until 25 minutes after the Order of Business should have been taken to decide whether there are matters that can properly be raised on the Order of Business or on the Adjournment.
These matters can be simply left in the hands of the Chair. The Chair will do his duty fairly.
We cannot leave them in the hands of the Chair if the Chair does not look to the House.
The Chair will look to the House.
I suggest, with the utmost of respect, that once the Order of Business has been established you look to the House to decide whether there are Deputies who wish to raise matters in an orderly fashion.
I do not know if Deputy Dukes was here but I heard——
I was here all the time. I had the privilege of being here and bowing to you on your arrival.
I heard a large number of Deputies this afternoon seeking to raise matters.
You said, as Deputy Birmingham pointed out that, when you had your little passage of arms with Deputy Sherlock, you would not hear anybody else. I suggest to you that that is not a desirable procedure for the Chair.
It is a proper procedure for the Chair and we had passed on to the next item.
The Chair must decide whether matters being raised are orderly and if they are not it is your privilege to tell us that they are not but if they are it is your privilege to say that you will communicate with the Deputy.
He can be very stubborn when he wishes.
On a point of order, I should like to bring to the attention of the Chair the fact that I am seeking Government time to have a debate on the crisis in the health services. I will raise this matter in the morning.
Half of the country is closed down and we are now going on to discuss national monuments.