asked the Minister for Justice if the Government intend to introduce legislation to abolish ground rents; the proposals, if any, he has to require local authorities to surrender their interests in current ground rents; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Ground Rents.
6.
The Landlord and Tenant (Group Rents) Act, 1978, which I initiated prevented the creation of new ground rents on dwelling houses. In the same year I initiated the Landlord and Tenant (Group Rents) (No. 2) Act, 1978, which provides a low cost purchase scheme of existing ground rents on dwelling houses.
The existing law therefore provides a ready means by which any person can free himself of a ground rent payable on his dwelling house. A considerable number of people have availed themselves that opportunity. Any proposals for further legislation on ground rents will be announced in the ordinary way in due course.
I am dismayed with the Minister's answer to the extent that it can be interferred clearly from it that the Government have no proposals to meet the commitments given before the election to introduce amending legislation to abolish all existing ground rents.
Has the Minister at this stage received the draft Bill that the Justice spokesman when in Opposition, Deputy Michael Woods, prepared with a view to the abolition of ground rents, in particular, ground rents on local authority housing? For example, is the Minister aware that at present Dublin Corporation in one area of the city — Donaghmede — collect ground rent on 700 houses and that his colleague, Deputy Woods gave an undertaking to his constituents in that area that on assumption of office the Government would immediately introduce legislation to take away from local authorities the right to retain ownership of groun rents?
The Deputy must understand that the two pieces of legislation to which I referred and which came into operation in 1978 have been of considerable benefit to those genuinely interested in buying out their ground rents. In fairness to my successors in office this scheme, which was initially introduced for a period of five years, was subsequently extended to facilitate members of the public who were anxious to buy out their ground rents. I do not have any proposals for further legislation on ground rents at present. I should say for the benefit of the House that up to the end of 1986 51,871 purchase applications under the scheme had been received in the Land Registry, 46,552 vesting certificates had issued to purchasers and there are about 5,300 applications on hands at present. These figures will clearly show that the schemes introduced in 1978 have been effective and, as I say, I do not have any further proposals at present——
Is the Minister aware that under the existing law——
The Deputy may ask a brief question.
I have two brief questions. I have not yet got an answer to my question on whether the Minister has yet received the draft Bill Deputy Woods had prepared, we were told, during the last election——
That is not a matter for the Chair.
Would the Minister at least consider amending section 28 of the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (No. 2) Act, 1978, to exclude the right of a ground landlord to seek the committal to prison of a person who had failed to comply with a court order to pay up on a demand for ground rent? It would be an important development in Fianna Fáil's commitment to the abolition of the——
Your second question please, Deputy.
Is the Minister aware that under existing law a person who is within the last 15 years of the ground lease is not entitled to avail of the scheme introduced in 1978 and that currently there are pending actions before the courts of people who are threatened with losing not only the land to which the ground lease refers but also the house they built?
I am prepared to have a look at section 28 of the 1978 Bill. As regards the second matter raised, I will also give that consideration.
As a matter of urgency?
(Limerick East): What is the current backlog in the Land Registry of applicants for the purchase of ground rents? How long does it take from the date of application to having a vesting certificate issued? Would the Minister outlined the priority procedures available to people who are selling their houses and want to sell them as freehold property?
With regard to the backlog, I am advised the figure is around 5,300. The arrears mainly arose from the rush of purchase applications which were lodged in 1983-84 to take advantage of the old fees. Deputy Noonan will remember that fees were increased somewhat at that time, and rightly so, for the purpose of covering the cost of operating the Land Registry. As regards the delay in the issuing of vesting vertificates, the delay is two months in consent cases and one year in the case of applications for arbitration.
With regard to the first part of Deputy McCartan's question, would the Minister assure the House that we would be reading his mind aright if we supposed, first, that the he takes the view that the abolition of ground rents — their expropriation from their owners — would be unlawful and unconstitutional, like the expropriation of any other form of property if it is done without compensation and, second, that the Workers' Party suggestion is that that abolition should take the form of an abolition compensated for by the State in ease of private ground rent payers? There are many other items of social urgency which would have, with any rational man, a far higher priority than that.
Successive Ministers for Justice have made it clear that existing ground rents can be terminated in one of two ways, by purchase or by confishcation of the ground landlords' property, and that termination without comprehensation to landlords would be unconstitutional. If compensation were to be made from public funds, this would involve a very costly charge on the Exchequer and in my view would be totally unjustifiable.
Absolutely.
May I ask the Minister if he has forgotten that he did not make any such statement in the course of the 1977 general election campaign?
I was trying to keep clear of that.
I could give the Deputies word for word the contents of the letter I put my name to at that time. I said I would introduce a scheme leading to the abolition of ground rents —"leading" was the key word. I shall send a copy of that ten year old letter with my compliments and good wishes to the Deputies.
(Interruptions.)
What about the 15 year old letter in which the Minister said it would be impossible to abolish ground rents?
The Deputy has a good memory.
May I ask the Minister the date of the expiry of the existing scheme and if he will renew it?
I understand the scheme will expire very shortly.
In a month or two?
Very shortly. I will have to discuss the matter with my colleagues in Government before I am in a position to make any further announcement on it.
Would the Minister——
The Deputy must be very brief. We have dealt with only five questions in half an hour and I want to deal with other questions.
Would the Minister differentiate between the ground rents owned by local authorities and those owned by private ground landlords? Is he aware of the undertaking given by Deputy Woods that this Government would introduce immediately legislation with regard to negotiating with the local authorities to surrender their interest in ground leases to owner occupiers?
I have already dealt with that supplementary question. Any proposals for further legislation on ground rents will be announced in the ordinary way in due course. Beyond that I cannot go.