Deputy John Kelly has been given permission to raise on the Adjournment the examination of the National Museum as a temporary home for the Seanad.
Adjournment Debate. - National Museum Usage.
The National Museum, as long as I can remember in my adult existence anyway, has been housed in very difficult conditions. One of the first debates in which I took part on being elected to the Oireachtas 18 years ago was one on a report of the Visitors of the National Museum which took four years even to get into print so despised was that institution by the Government of the time. Although I hope matters have changed with the various changes of Governments in the meantime, the museum still is very much an institution which, even a casual glance will show, has been treated in a stepmotherly fashion. It is the Cinderella of the State institutions. I compare it even with the way it was when I was a child and used to be taken round it by my father. I am appalled, not just at the lack of development of its facilities, but at the degree to which neglect, clutter and inertia have overtaken it and, to some extent, demoralised the very devoted staff who work there.
I can remember for some purpose visiting the labyrinth of rooms which underline this building and the adjacent Government Buildings, when I saw there in a state of decay items I remembered seeing on display in the National Museum when I was a small boy more than 40 years ago. The research, restoration, repair, study facilities, all of the facilities which in any normal museum in western Europe are taken for granted are present in the National Museum at shoestring level only unless things have changed very radically in the few years since I last had a look at the insides of it. Not only that but the space allotted to it is wildly insufficient for its needs. I am speaking both about the Antiquities Museum and the Natural History Museum. On the first occasion when I was taken through the back parts of both of these parts of the National Museum I saw exhibits which mean nothing to me — because I am too ignorant on that plain — geological exhibits stacked in corridors in boxes which were bursting, they were falling out into the corridors having been unceremoniously extruded from the original position they had occupied in the museum premises. One might well ask why and the answer is that the Houses of the Oireachtas had moved in on them and taken up the space on which they had formerly relied. That was when the extensions here were carried out about 20 years ago. The condition of the main geological collection was a national scandal, with large lumps of rock which mean nothing to me but of course are important to those who understand them. If they would not fit in packing cases they were simply beaten with sledge hammers until they did fit. That sort of conduct I mention only because it symbolises the State's attitude towards the National Museum down the years. There are not many votes in antiquities. There are not many votes in geological samples from comets, meteors, from this or that disused quarry. Accordingly the museum was very much in the condition of the weakest of the farrow of bonhams and was very lucky if the sow did not roll over and kill it.
The proposal about which I have read in the last little while is that, in the length of time it takes to repair the Seanad Chamber in Leinster House, the Seanad should be accommodated in the round entrance hall of the National Museum, which is the only entrance hall I know. It is a largish space, not by any means unused because it contains the entrance to the entire institution and is used for checking visitors. In these days of security, they have to be very carefully checked, parcels have to be examined, sometimes retained and given back to the visitor when he or she is leaving. Parties of school children, parties of visitors, sometimes parties of distinguished guests from overseas are received there. The suggestion is, as far as I know, in the quite unlimited time — in the sense that nobody knows how long it will take to repair the Seanad Chamber — the sittings of that House should take place over there. That has caused consternation among the board and staff of the museum.
I asked the Chair's permission to raise this matter on the Adjournment because, first, these matters are not very often dealt with in here and, second, I think it unfair and wrong that a devoted staff who have suffered from neglect on the part of the State for generations, should be asked to tolerate this further contemptuous invasion of the very limited space they have in which to do their work. Before reverting to the question of the staff, their morale and needs, that change is bound to mean more unsightly prefabricated building if it goes ahead.
I see the Minister of State over there. I know he will be replying. I hope he will be saying that no decision has been taken about this matter yet, that all other options are being examined. I hope he will be able to go a bit further than that in making me happy. But I expect him to say at least that much. He will know, from his knowledge of the site, I suppose, that one cannot make a public entrance at the Kildare Place side without some kind of extension which, from my experience, will be unsightly. It will not be possible, in that small entrance, to carry out the ordinary operations of checking visitors' parcels, suitcases, satchels and so forth. It will not be possible to receive in any dignity there parties of important visitors from abroad. It will not be possible to admit in an orderly way large numbers of school children and it will not be possible there to ensure their egress quickly in the case of an emergency. Security will only be capable of being discharged by the erection outside the museum, on Kildare Place, of some kind of hut or shack.
Kildare Place is one of the saddest and most disreputable chapters in the architectural history of this city and in the history of official taste, both governmental and corporational. It is a backwater as far as streets are concerned because it is only a recess in Kildare Street but it used to be an architectural gem. There were three or four early 18th century houses on that street which, even as an uninstructed schoolboy, I remember admiring and which people who knew about these things very strongly admired. Those houses were pulled down ruthlessly in the sixties or perhaps the late fifties to make room for an extension to the Government Buildings complex. It was the era of the rising tide which lifted all the boats and it was the same era in which the ESB were allowed to pull down a whole range of buildings in Lower Fitzwilliam Street. It was an act of official vandalism not markedly worse than any other at the time or any other which we have seen since but we should try to prevent the same happening again. I do not want to see prefabricated buildings on Kildare Place, apart from the functional and the security difficulties which any system of entrance and exit would cause there.
The staff of the National Museum have a very difficult and important job to do which is too often the object of a perfunctory salute. They have been, as one can see by inspecting their conditions of work, the victims of official indifference over generations. In the most primitive emerging country in the world there would scarcely be as much collective indifference shown to the sort of things we like to pretend we are interested in as we have shown towards the National Museum. We are great at inviting American Presidents and showing them the Book of Kells, the Tara Brooch or the Ardagh Chalice, having a quick photo call of some dimly understood, glamorous item from our past and then we put the museum out of our minds for the next five or ten years until some other dignatory arrives and Pat is again asked to tip his forelock and be photographed with him. I always notice when photographs are taken that the Irish Minister looks up admiringly at the foreign man who looks straight ahead. At those times we take an interest in the museum but at other times it is neglected and forgotten.
The reaction of the museum staff on finding that they are once again being asked to allow their already inadequate premises to be used as an overflow site for the operations of Leinster House is understandable. They have been sufficiently demoralised during the years by the relative neglect of a country which prides itself on its rich cultural heritage and its interest in that heritage. I would not like to allow this suggestion to pass in the House without protesting against any further demoralising of that staff by making the main entrance of the museum the position for the deliberations of one of the Houses of the Oireachtas. It will make a show of us.
We are very keen to impress our neighbours but if we go ahead with what is being suggested, visitors abroad will be brought in through the back entrance of the museum and that will disturb the natural sequence of viewing the exhibits. The front entrance will not be used for most of the time because the Seanad, as everybody here knows, usually sits only one day a week for about 20 weeks of the year. Most of the time the front entrance will be as silent as Tutankhamen's tomb. That is no way to treat the main entrance, of the antiquities division, of the National Museum of Ireland.
It is sad that a Government, presided over by a Taoiseach who is interested in the arts and in trying to raise the general level of appreciation and awareness of artistic and cultural elements in life would lend themselves to the desecration of the museum. No doubt it would start out as a temporary measure but it might easily stretch to several years. I ask the Minister to consider seriously and urgently alternative sites. They will not be perfect but nothing provisional is perfect. I cannot see why the Seanad would not meet in Room G24 in Setanta House which would be big enough. Although it would not be very comfortable, it would be tolerable for people who would be asked to sit there for only a few hours on one day a week for about 20 weeks of the year.
I understand that the former Kildare Street club premises which now belong to the State are not in use. I do not know what the conditions of the inside of that building are like but I was in the building once or twice as a guest under its old management and I recall that it has one or two extremely large rooms. The old dining room is very big and it might be adaptable for use as a Seanad Chamber. Another suggestion made was that the Seanad should use the Dáil Chamber. I hope we are not standing so much on our own dignity that we would think the Dáil Chamber would be diminished if the other House were allowed to sit here on days when it is not in use for Dáil proceedings. What is wrong with allowing the Seanad to sit in the Dáil Chamber on Mondays and Fridays or on Tuesday mornings? Frequently the deliberations of the Seanad do not extend beyond the length of time that would allow them to be accommodated in the Dáil Chamber up to 2.30 p.m. on Tuesdays. Why must we convulse one of the major national cultural institutions when we could adopt that alternative? We have all the facilities in this Chamber which a legislative assembly needs. The same facilities which are available to the Seanad are also available to the Dáil so why can the Seanad not sit in this Chamber when the Dáil is not sitting?
The Deputy has three minutes to conclude.
I will conclude by asking the Government not to lend themselves to another act of official vandalism. The idea I am putting forward will not cost a halfpenny. For the sake of having an echoing empty chamber for about 320 or 330 days out of the 365 days in the year, we are going to build a false ceiling in the National Museum and presumably we will have all the problems and expense of installing the reporting, translating, press and public facilities in the entrance to the museum. I protest very strongly against that. The Minister should make a name for himself, as this is the first chance he has had since becoming Minister to do so, as the man who prevented this act of official vandalism from taking place.
I concur entirely with Deputy Kelly's views on the National Museum. It is a very important cultural institution and I have a great interest in it. It has served the nation well. We have a duty as public representatives, and the State has a duty, to ensure that the museum fulfils its rightful role. That is the attitude of the Government and in particular of the Taoiseach who has a major interest in the affairs of the museum. As the person responsible for the museum he has always shown that interest.
I, as Minister of State at the Department of Finance with special responsibility for public works, am responsible for the procurement of property on behalf of the State or any agency of the State. I must ensure that any organ or agency of the State that requires accommodation must get it as quickly as possible with the least difficulty being caused to any other agency or organ of the State.
At present, the Commissioners of Public Works are faced with the problem of finding a suitable alternative temporary location for the Seanad, to be used immediately after the summer recess, when the reconstruction work on the present Chamber shall have begun. Unfortunately, the extent of this work means that there is no realistic option but to relocate the Seanad while the work is in progress.
Briefly, the main requirements are that the temporary chamber should be appropriate for the Upper House of the Oireachtas, that it should be of sufficient size to house all 60 Senators in the normal manner with some further accommodation for the press and public, that it be fitted with loudspeakers and a public address system, that it be secure, or easily rendered so, and that as far as possible it be within the Leinster House precincts. I might also add, and this is something, we all have to be very much aware of, that every effort must be made to keep the cost of relocation to the minimum possible commensurate with the provision of a suitable standard of accommodation, security and equipment, in the new location.
With the objective of fulfilling this brief the Office of Public Works have looked at a number of different locations, a total of seven in all. They have discussed these locations with the Seanad Committee on Procedures and Privileges and as there is not one ideal location the matter is still being examined. I hope that will make the Deputy happy. Some of the proposed alternative locations suit the Seanad's needs better than others, and one such is the Rotunda, or entrance hall of the National Museum. I think it true to say that nobody of choice would take any space away from the museum even on a temporary basis such as is now being considered, and similar consideration is being given to the other six locations. I do not think, however, that it detracts in any way from the National Museum, which is one of our foremost cultural institutions, that the second House of our Legislature, should consider its entrance hall a suitable temporary chamber. Quite the reverse I would have thought and scarcely an act of "cultural vandalism" as somebody was quoted as having said in one of the daily papers, and as the Deputy is inferring. We must remember that the Seanad is enshrined in our Constitution, that it is arguably the second most important organ of State and that any domocracy worth its salt must respect it and provide for its legitimate and quite modest accommodation needs whether they be temporary or permanent.
I am somewhat surprised that Deputy Kelly, a constitutional lawyer, should seem to demean or downgrade the importance of the role of the Seanad. It must be borne in mind also that if the Seanad should decide to move to the museum the effect on display space will be quite low as the Rotunda is not used for display purposes. We all know the museum needs more display space and this will be available when the National Museum takes over the space already allocated to it in the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham. I concur with what Deputy Kelly said about various artefacts and geological procurements which need to be on public display. It is our hope they will be put on permanent public display in the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, when the National Museum takes over the space already allotted to it.
If there is displacement as a result of the relocation of the Seanad Chamber for Senators or any State agency or organ of Government, a comparable provision will be made to ensure that that displacement will be more than adequately met by providing accommodation elsewhere for them. I will see to that as the person charged with responsibility for providing office accommodation.
When all the locations have been thoroughly examined in full detail and due consultations have taken place between the Office of Public Works, the Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges and any other relevant authorities or State agencies directly involved a final decision will be taken on this extremely important issue. I intend, as the Minister responsible for the procurement of accommodation either permanent or temporary on behalf of the State, to ensure that the enforced relocation of Seanad Éireann will not in any way diminish the role of, downgrade the status of, or disrupt the deliberations of our second most important organ of State, namely Seanad Éireann.
The Minister will agree that prestige derives from conduct, not from trappings or housing.
Absolutely. The Deputy will recognise that in order to create the opportunity and the environment to get the maximum contribution from the Second House of the Oireachtas we must provide the right environment for Members to discharge their responsibilities.
What is wrong with this Chamber?
When everything is taken into consideration a decision will be made.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 3 June 1987.