Vol. 373 No. 14
asked the Minister for Social Welfare the number of interviews so far conducted under the Jobsearch programme; the number who have been found work as a result; the number who have been taken off the register; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
11.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare the latest estimates with the likely effect of the Jobsearch programme on the live register; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
It is proposed to take Question Nos. 3 and 11 together.
To date over 36,000 people have been interviewed under the programme and 650 have found jobs directly as a result. Some 4,000 have been placed on employment schemes or programmes and over 2,000 have been placed on the Jobsearch course. The benefits in improved employment prospects for those in training programmes, including the Jobsearch course, will be seen mainly in the medium term rather than the short term. The initial effect of Jobsearch is to increase the confidence and motivation of the long term unemployed. This has been borne out by a review of the pilot Jobsearch courses held in Letterkenny, Tallaght and Limerick. The review indicated that over 80 per cent of those who attended found the course worth while and 76 per cent felt it improved their confidence.
It is still too early to provide accurate estimates of the likely effect of the Jobsearch programme on the live register. However, apart from those placed in Manpower schemes and AnCO training courses, preliminary figures show that, arising from the programme, 187 were disallowed and a further 1,252 left the live register. The 4,000 or so persons placed on Manpower schemes and AnCO training courses have also left the live register.
I should point out that the Jobsearch programme is concentrated on the long term unemployed and its main purpose is to be of personal assistance to those who are six months or more on the live register in their search for work. It is, of course, recognised that in addition to some people being placed in employment and in Manpower and training schemes, an assessment of the needs of those on the live register will also result in others, who may not appear to satisfy the statutory conditions for entitlements under the Social Welfare Acts, having their entitlements reviewed. Furthermore, a number may cease signing rather than face a review if they are aware that they do not satisfy the statutory conditions for entitlements under the Acts. These are factors which would lead to some reduction in the live register.
If I understand the Minister's figures correctly, about 4 per cent of those interviewed have been disallowed or have ceased to sign on the live register. Could the Minister extrapolate that for the entire register and tell us the cost of a 4 per cent overclaim of unemployment?
There is a danger in taking these figures at this time. I would advise Deputies against trying to make too many calculations based on them, the reason being that there is a time lag, of necessity, partly because of the way in which the claims are being handled and partly because of the individuals who might not turn up are being dealt with. They are being given an opportunity to go back for another interview if this is considered necessary. Consequently there is some time lag and the figures will not become very clear until later in the year. For example, one can take the referrals to schemes and programmes, there being 7,415 who have been thus referred. The figure I gave earlier was only for those actually placed. Obviously more of those referred will be placed. There have been 2,615 people referred to job vacancies but the figure I gave of 650 is the number that have been confirmed in job vacancies. That was up the middle of June.
What percentage would that be?
1 per cent; no, 2 per cent.
Of the total that the Minister is talking about?
They are in the pipeline and at any point there will be more people coming along who have actually got jobs and more who have actually accepted placings. The figures do not relate to one another. We can tell the Deputies today the number interviewed because that is an absolture figure. We cannot say the number who have taken placings or who have left the register because those who leave the register will not be known for some time. One would want to be slightly careful about extrapolating too much from some of the initial data which is available.
Would the Minister not consider 650 jobs out of 36,000 for interviews as derisory, especially in view of the fact that those jobs would almost certainly have been filled without the Jobsearch programme? In view of these very disappointing figures, does the Minister consider it worthwhile continuing with the Jobsearch programme? Does he still believe it will have the achievements claimed for it when it was announced? Would he not agree with what Deputy Stagg said earlier, that this is just a programme to hunt people off the live register?
As I explained to the House, 2,615 have been referred to job vacancies. I appreciate that it is difficult to follow the way in which statistics work. There is a time lag in the reporting back from Manpower and from employers of the people who have actually accepted vacancies offered to them. One would be leading oneself very far astray if one started doing the kind of extrapolation which the Deputy is doing at present. The scheme is being handled in the interests of the long term unemployed and the figures will be clearer at a later stage. The figure of 1,200 in respect of people who have left the live register is one which must be of interest to Deputies in the House. The 650 people who have got the jobs so far are people from the long term unemployed who have been looking for jobs for a long time and they have got these jobs through the Jobsearch programme.
Is the Minister aware, in view of the statement that this scheme is for the long term unemployed, of the case of a junior hotel manager who of necessity is unemployed for brief periods between employment, who was forced to go onto the Jobsearch scheme and who made direct representations to the Minister who refused his appeal on grounds that it was unreasonable? He now is off the register because he took the emigrant boat to England.
That is rather a specific question, worthy of a particular question.
The Minister is aware of the case.
I should like to avoid stating an individual case. I shall base my supplementary question on the question that has been asked. If 1,252 persons have been removed from the live register, as the Minister has told the House, and 650 have gone to jobs, we are anxious to know what happened to the balance, the difference between 1,252 and 650. How many have actually left the country? Can the Minister tell the House whether the officers in charge of these interviews make inquiries as to the residence of the persons so that we can calculate the emigration effect of the Jobsearch programme?
It would have very little effect.
Can we calculate it?
Deputy Stagg referred to a case with which he said I am familiar. I am aware of one case where a person went on the Jobsearch programme and then got a job in London. The same person told me that it was a great inconvenience to come on the programme and he felt he was too highly qualified for that kind of programme. After two weeks he phoned me to say that it was not such a bad idea after all because he found that there were people there with high qualifications who had never considered other things they might have approached. They had some specialised training and had not considered management. The tutors advised them and they found a niche for themselves in that area.
Another interesting thing that this gentleman told me was there were two people on his right at the programme who were working and drawing benefit all the time. It was an education to him because he did not really think that this went on. There was another person on his left who had been eight years on unemployment and this was the first two weeks in that time that he had not been working. I shall not mention the area in which he was working, although it was told to me. This was the first two weeks in eight years that he had been so inconvenienced that he could not work.
So the Minister is admitting that the scheme is not to give work but to weed out people from the live register?
Could I dissuade Deputies from attempting to debate these matters today? Again I must advert to the fact that we have made such little progress. We are still on Question No. 3. Is this good enough?
We have dealt with six questions.
May I come back to my supplementary question which was not answered? I am sure you will agree, Sir, that I am making an effort to avoid references to individual cases. That is advice that the Minister might well take. If 1,252 people have gone off the register and 650 have been sent to jobs, of the remaining 602 people, the Minister's phrase, in answer to a previous supplementary, was that they do not turn up for a few weeks and the Minister then proceeded to give me a list of individual cases. I asked a simple question. Are procedures being taken in the offices to try to ascertain what happened to the other 602 people and will we be able to know the number of them that have emigrated? That is the question which the House would like answered and it has nothing to do with individual cases.
I explained that as far as possible. We do not have an ocean of officers. On other occasions the Deputy would challenge me and say that I was pursuing people. We do surveys on these matters but it would be impossible to give the Deputy an answer because there are 246,000 people on the unemployment register and 80,000 people on disability benefit. Some people will move from the unemployment register on to disability benefit and vice versa. That is an indirect effect. I have tried to explain that on a number of occasions.
I want clarification——
We will only know the long term effect of that after some time because some of those people do not come back on to the register at all.
Will the Minister——
A final supplementary.
Will the Minister clarify a point. Are the 1,252 who have left the register in addition to the 650 who got jobs or are they included in that 1,252?
The analysis includes the 650. That is the total who are known to have left the register at this stage apart from the 4,000 who have gone on Manpower schemes and so on.
In other words, only 602 left the register and did not get a job?
We do not know what they did. I have already explained that. I told the Deputy that 187 had been struck off.
The Minister gave five or six separate figures. The second figure was that 650 had found jobs. Then he said that 1,252 had left the register. Are they separate figures or does the 1,252 include the 650 who found jobs?
I said yes. I will say it again if the Deputy likes.
The problem is that these statistics do not tally and it is difficult for the Minister to indicate what the figures include. Will the Minister agree that there is nothing new in this, that the numbers who have got jobs are more or less the same as those who would get jobs in any case? The numbers who emigrate are approximately twice the number who get jobs. Will the Minister agree that the only new factor in this is the Jobsearch course? Will the Minister agree that on these Jobsearch courses participants spend two weeks on how to write a CV and the following two weeks searching for jobs and that the whole operation is farcical and humiliating for both participants and AnCO personnel? Will the Minister agree that that is what happens on the four weeks Jobsearch courses?
The Deputy can look at the figures afterwards and study what they mean. There are 4,000 on the long term register of unemployed who were offered opportunities on social employment schemes and other manpower schemes who have accepted them to date. Many more will presumably accept these places and they have been reserved for them. We will not have full information on the numbers who have left the register until later. That figure will only emerge after a period. Some people may leave the register for a short time and come back. I have given the Deputies the number who have been disallowed to date. Obviously more will be disallowed when they go through the process but the process of disallowance is lengthy as it ensures that individuals have a full right to be heard and to make their case and if their case is reasonable they are given other opportunities and they are not struck off.
Question No. 4 please.
Please let us get on to another question. Question No. 4 please.
