Vol. 374 No. 4
asked the Minister for the Environment if, in view of the alarm which has been expressed by a wide range of bodies involved in environmental, planning, housing and road safety matters at the proposal to abolish An Foras Forbartha, he will reconsider the proposal to abolish An Foras; if he will outline the bodies which will undertake the work previously done by An Foras, if it is abolished; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
42.
asked the Minister for the Environment (a) the services currently provided by An Foras Forbartha which will be transferred to his Department; (b) the timetable for this transfer; (c) the numbers of people currently employed with An Foras Forbartha who would be retained in employment in order to provide such services; and (d) the type of employment contract which they will receive including the identity of their legal employer; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 9 and 42 together.
It is not proposed to reconsider the decision already made in regard to An Foras Forbartha. It is the Government's intention that alternative arrangements will be made to secure the continuation of essential research and related services, but at less cost. The board of An Foras is preparing an action plan to implement the decision and I expect this to be available at the end of October. Pending completion and consideration of that plan, no decisions on the specific matters referred to in the questions have been or will be made.
May I strip some of the ministerial jargon away from what the Minister has said and take it that he is saying this Government intend to proceed with the abolition of An Foras Forbartha? If that is the case, can he tell us what elements of the service An Foras Forbartha provide are regarded as no longer useful by his Department?
It would not be appropriate for me to go into matters which are now in the charge of the board appointed to deal with this very matter. The important thing is that the matter will be finalised by the end of October. I am sorry this question session is not taking place subsequent to that because I could have been more forthcoming. The board have been charged with a responsibility. They have a special job to do. They are doing that and have virtually completed it, and by the end of this month that will be all public knowledge. It would be inappropriate for me to start giving details of what is going on following the appointment of a board to do the job.
The Minister could have withheld his decision in relation to An Foras Forbartha pending a decision by the board he established to review the functions which they are carrying out. Can the Minister tell the House whether he agrees that some five years ago the advice was against abolishing An Foras Forbartha and against even pruning its services, that there was advice to increase investment in environmental research and development? Does he not regard the present Government decision as contrary to the environmental and health interests of the citizens of this State and does he agree that the only solution is to maintain An Foras Forbartha and to expand its services?
An Foras Forbartha did certain jobs on direction by the Minister, to satisfy the requirements of the Departments and local authorities. Much of that work was important and will have to be retained in one way or another. I do not know what happened five years ago but I would be particularly anxious that the Department of the Environment be strengthened in one particular way anyway, that is in their environmental division. I have never accepted that that division ever got off the ground since the changeover from the Department of Local Government to the Department of the Environment. This is an opportunity to do just that but that is one of a rather long range of things. I am satisfied that we can get the necessary testing and analytical services we require to function properly at a lower cost.
Having regard to the statement issued by the Minister or on his behalf on 1 September announcing the decision to abolish An Foras Forbartha but to retain some of the functions currently undertaken by An Foras within the Department, is he now telling the House, in the non-content of his reply, that when that statement was issued on his behalf the people did not know what functions were going to be retained or that they now know at least some of the functions to be retained in his Department but that he is nor prepared to tell the House as he has not completed the review?
There is a little of the truth in both. We did very carefully go through the whole exercise of the functions, job specification and the usage of An Foras Forbartha before the decision was taken. In broad outline, we recognised that certain of the functions could be transferred to other Departments, other authorities and other agencies. Some of those agencies did not exist 23 years ago and many did not exist for a long time after the setting up of An Foras Forbartha. Taking all into consideration and to get the best usage from the money available to the Department, we decided that it was possible to achieve these economies. It was then, I thought, a good idea and I still think it is the proper method, that the board of An Foras would decide finally on the very fine detail of the best placing of some of those essential services and perhaps the termination of some not regarded as essential in today's circumstances. Once the matter has been finalised, by the end of October, all that will be available for public scrutiny and can be the subject of debate here at Estimates time or any other suitable time that the Ceann Comhairle allows. I should be happy to go into the matter in great detail then. In fairness to all concerned and perhaps in great fairness to An Foras Forbartha, the matter is being handled very sensitively and it will be much more appropriate a little later.
I thank the Minister for his undertaking which I take to be that the recommendations of the board will be made available as soon as they are readily available to him with regard to the allocation of finance for the proposed to be abolished An Foras Forbartha. Is that what the Minister has said?
I think I can go a little further than that. I have already had some discussions with the trade union officials representing the workforce there and that might be continuing on an ongoing basis as well, so that when matters are finalised at the end of October and the negotiations are complete as to where we will be going, as to redeployment and whatever else is necessary, it will be public knowledge as to how we propose dealing with these matters.
One final supplementary from Deputy Quinn.
Without being unfair to the Minister and having regard to the nature of his replies, is the House to take that he, as Minister for the Environment, decided to abolish this environmental agency in advance of knowing what he was going to do with the functions, without consultation with the people involved and without being clear on what savings were likely to be made? At the end of October when the decision becomes irrevocable, we might as public representatives, as well as the staff, get some inkling as to the details of this decision? Is that the process of thinking?
That is not so.
We shall have to conclude now.
That is a misuse of words. It is a effort to misinterpret what I said. Before the Government took that decision, very considerable study was done as to the possiblities with regard to having a more cost efficient service.
I call on Deputy Boland at this stage.
The answer was summed up in the sentence that told the House that the end of October would see all this matter——
At the end of October the decision will already have been taken.
I have two questions. Can the Minister say whether, when the Government made this extraordinary decision two months ago, they took into account the question of whether they would be in breach of any United Nations agreement?
That was not a matter that caused any difficulty at that time.
That was not taken into account?
It was not a matter that was signalled as causing any difficulty at that time.
Secondly, may we take it that under the terms of the recently published proposed public service pay plan, one of the terms of that plan should be taken to indicate that none of the Staff of An Foras Forbartha would be made compulsorily redundant?
I would have thought that that was made abundantly obvious, not just in the House here yesterday by the Taoiseach in his opening submission on the Estimate debate but at all times since the matter was announced and concluded. It is a voluntary redundancy package that is being offered and it also includes redeployment. I do not see where the problem lies.
Does it mean that any member of the staff of An Foras Forbartha who does not wish to accept the voluntary redundancy terms will be redeployed at present salary level to another post in the public service?
The redundancy package will be offered in the first instance, as understood, in a voluntary way.
But if a member of the staff does not accept the voluntary redundancy terms will he or she be offered another post under the same terms and conditions within the public service?
They will be offered the package as outlined in the Dáil here and only that.
Does the Minister not accept that under the terms of the plan the Government have apparently given an undertaking not to impose any compulsory redundancy within the public service during the lifetime of the plan?
If the plan states that, then that is what it is to be.
Does the Minister know what is in the plan.
Of course.
Then will he answer the question?
This is getting into argument now.
I cannot see why we are continuing this line of questioning, considering the fact that it is the same redundancy package that is being offered——
But it is not compulsory?
It is voluntary.
And it is definitely not compulsory?
It is voluntary in the first instance.
I call Question No. 10.
And if the Deputy will read the package as agreed between the Government and the trade unions——
The Chair has called the next question.
Is the Minister not lucky?
I am prepared to pursue this matter with the Deputy any time.
