Vol. 374 No. 5
asked the Minister for Labour if his approval was given for the decision by AnCO to cut the weekly allowance paid to AnCO trainees; the number of persons who will be affected by these cuts; the total amount expected to be saved by this action; if, in view of the hardship likely to be created for young people on AnCO courses, he will reverse his decision; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
14.
asked the Minister for Labour the number of trainees who have been, or will be, affected over the next year by the reduction of trainee allowances in community training workshops in County Kildare and all other counties; the amount of savings which will be made by the Department through the reduction; and the amount of grants which will be lost from the European Social Fund through the reduction.
16.
asked the Minister for Labour if his attention has been drawn to the hardship being caused by the reduction in the AnCO trainee allowances; when he intends to restore the original allowances; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 7, 14 and 16 together. I took the decision to revise the training allowances on Manpower schemes on foot of recommendations made by the Social Gurantee Advisory Board and endorsed by the Youth Employment Agency. The Social Gurantee Advisory Board was established by a former Minister for Labour as a body representative of Manpower and educational authorities, youth interests and the social partners and has as one of its terms of reference "to advise the Youth Employment Agency on the level of allowances for participants in youth training programmes".
Training allowances for AnCO and CERT adult trainees are harmonised with unemployment assistance levels. Special rates are payable for 15 to 17 year olds who are not entitled to unemployment assistance. Where individuals have entitlement to a higher rate of social welfare compensation, the higher amount will be paid as a training allowance. Trainees who were recruited before 17 August have retained their old allowance level. Meal, travel and accommodation allowances are also payable where appropriate. Free training is also provided.
Because of the need for financial stringency in the public service I have no proposals to restore the previous allowance levels. My main concern is to ensure that as many people as possible can benefit from training opportunities within the limited resources available to me. I am also concerned not to attract young people from the education system and claims were made that the AnCO training allowances for young people were having this effect.
It is not possible at this stage to state how many entrants to training courses after the operative date (i.e. 17 August) will be affected by the new allowances. Information on their age and social welfare entitlements would be required. On the major assumption that the characteristics of trainees will not change, I estimate that Exchequer savings in the region of £1.5 million should be achieved in training and accommodation allowances in a full year. Some of these potential savings could, however, be offset by higher unit training costs resulting from changes in the trainee profile. Generally speaking, Exchequer expenditure on training allowances attracts matching funding from the European Social Fund.
For community training workshops, AnCO plan to provide approximately 1,700 training places throughout the country for 1988, of which approximately 40 will be located in County Kildare.
As the average duration of training in these workshops is around 6 months it is estimated that about 3,400 people in the country as a whole will be affected of which about 80 will be located in County Kildare. It is estimated that most of these people will be affected by the reduction of trainee allowances.
I am glad the Minister has accepted it as his decision to reduce the amount of payment to AnCO trainees. Would he accept that the scheme as it now stands is a closer step to nothing more than cheap labour by young people and nothing more than an incitement or encouragement to young people not to engage in the scheme but to remain on the dole, enjoying all the free time which would not be available to them if they were fully engaged?
I explained earlier that many of the courses for 15 to 17 year olds, while beneficial in their own right, are not structured in a way that help young people. A number of these courses were considered by the advisory board who reported to the Youth Employment Agency. It was finally my decision but it was based on the considerable advice of people in a number of walks of life who made up AnCO, CERT, the Youth Employment Agency, the educational sector, the National Youth Council of Ireland, the ICTU and the FUE. They reported to the Youth Employment Agency and then to me. It is argued that people leave the education system to go on six months training courses and then they become young school leavers with not future. That is a fact. Since the cuts were introduced, I have spent time speaking to the individuals concerned and a few points were raised which I should like to put on the record. None of the school leavers see these courses as training courses, they see them as employment schemes which will help them for six months but there is no future for them. In that way the State and the agencies involved con these young people because they believe they are getting a job with a future but the reality is that that never happened and is unlikely to happen. It would be better if these young people were encouraged to stay in the education system.
Admittedly, there is a category of people in the disadvantaged areas who are out of the school system and for them I would like to see a properly structured course of two to three years. I initiated discussions with ACTED, who represent some of these community bodies, particularly workshops, to try to get under way properly structured courses which would genuinely help young people. I am not saying there is anything really wrong with the present courses, but they are too short and they do not provide a future for young people. If young people think school is no good, they leave and go on one of these courses. This is not a good way to treat these young people.
I am calling Deputy Gregory and Deputy Stagg who also have questions on this subject in that order.
Would the Minister explain his change of heart since 3 July 1986 when in this House as reported at column 2311 of the Official Report, he asked the then Minister the following question:
Would the Minister agree that people between the ages of 15 and 18 years old who are on these courses are normally from deprived backgrounds and are encouraged by community leaders and others to avail of these courses? They are the last people who should be affected by these cuts and whoever was responsible for making this suggestion should be brought to account.
Can the Minister explain why his attitude was totally changed since July 1986?
I could, and I would be very glad to do so. At that time I did not understand, as I do now, that people were almost canvassed out of the educational system by people involved in external training——
Who? Identify them.
——and were encouraged to participate in short term six month courses and then thrown on the scrap heap for several years. That type of community scheme is of no value. When I met the members of the social advisory board and studied their findings, I saw how this system operated and I was very glad to change my mind.
Would the Minister agree that there is no basic restructuring that is desirable, that what we still have is a cheap labour scheme and that the training provided in such schemes is a misnomer? Does he also agree that the only thing he has done is to take £5 from the 16-year-olds, £7 from the 17-year-olds and £7 from the rest to put them on the dole level? Would he further agree that the only effect this will have is to ensure that young people will not even get involved in this bad scheme, and that he has done nothing about bringing forward proposals for a better scheme except to talk about it here today? The effect of this will be to drive even larger numbers of young people onto the Minister for Foreign Affairs' Utopian emigration boat, and all for a total savings of a miserable £1.5 million.
I have allowed the Deputy a lot of latitude——
Will the Minister confirm that the total cost of this scheme is funded from the European Social Fund?
It is almost matching funds. There is no sign that the intake level is dropping off. As I said earlier — I do not think Deputy Staff was in the House——
The number available has increased greatly arising from the Minister's other actions.
The Minister for Education and I, at official level, are endeavouring in the short term to put together a scheme which will give some kind of continuity to people who leave school early. My view is that it takes students in the second level institutions four or five years to prepare for the transition from school to work but the people in the most deprived disadvantaged areas are expected to do this in six months. This is not reasonable. With the advice and help of people with experience in this area, I hope we can set up a course for two or three years. I agree with the Deputies when they say that these people are deprived and need assistance but the way we are trying to do this is counter-productive and the advisory board strongly recommended that by paying this money we are providing an incentive for young people to leave school, a move which will damage their future careers. That is why I believe we have to restructure the system.
Would the Minister not agree that, apart from the considerable hardship imposed on young people attending these courses, the future of some of the centres, particularly in remote areas, could be in danger, coupled with the fact that the subsistence allowance paid to these people has been reduced to five days a week at £4 a day, a considerable reduction on what has been in force up to now. I want to refer particularly to a unique centre in Gweedore, County Donegal, which is charged with the responsibility of providing courses for people from Donegal to Cork, Kerry, Waterford, Meath and all Gaeltacht areas. There is widespread concern about the future of this centre. Would the Minister now agree that this move could be the death knell for that centre?
There is no intention to close any of these centres. It was because of the centre at Gweedore that we gave discretion to managers of certain centres to increase the allowance to seven days if there was hardship involved. Since a number of the participants at the Gweedore centre are from Minister, it would have been unreasonable to cut their allowances.
Have the managers been informed of these discretionary powers?
Yes.
Is the Minister confident that he is on the right track? Was his confidence shaken by the fact that the Combat Poverty Agency found it necessary to go public in condemnation of his action?
That is another matter.
I was on holiday when this decision was highlighted in a newspaper article — the decision was issued long before I went on holidays — and some of the bodies could not contact me in Kerry and decided to march in protest to the Department. When I returned I met all the bodies involved and I am now working constructively with them on a new arrangement.
