Vol. 376 No. 7
asked the Minister for Justice if he intends to meet with the different representative bodies of the Garda Síochána to discuss the effects of the proposed reduction in expenditure for the force next year; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
21.
asked the Minister for Justice if his attention has been drawn to the grievances of the Garda Síochána as expressed by their representative bodies recently in relation to the proposed abolition of the 15 minute pre-duty briefing time; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
23.
asked the Minister for Justice if his attention has been drawn to the serious concern expressed by the three main Garda representative bodies regarding the impact of cutbacks on the force, which they state are seriously affecting the efficiency of Garda services and the welfare of Garda personnel; if he has agreed to a request to meet the representative bodies to discuss these cutbacks; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
28.
asked the Minister for Justice the effect the proposed abolition of the 15 minute parading time will have on the operation of the Garda Síochána; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
37.
asked the Minister for Justice if, in view of reports of the possibility of industrial action being taken by members of the Garda Síochána as a result of cuts in overtime, he will make a statement as to the steps he proposes to take to prevent such industrial action.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 12, 21, 23, 28 and Priority Question No. 37 together.
In replying to these questions I want to explain the background to the matters that are referred to and to put them in proper perspective.
The reductions referred to are relatively very minor and must be regarded in the light of the serious state of the public finances and the measures which have had to be taken across the board to reduce public expenditure. The overall funds available to the Government to run the public services in 1988 have had to be determined by the Government in the light of the critical need to restore order to the public finances. As is very widely known, a major review of all public expenditure was initiated in May last. This review, which applied to every area of the public service, had the specific objective of achieving very significant reductions in expenditure. It was, by specific Government direction, undertaken on the basis that no area of public expenditure could be regarded as sacrosanct and that no service or scheme was immune from scrutiny to see if it could be eliminated or reduced.
The Garda Síochána had, prior to this review, emerged relatively unscathed from the effects of the cutbacks, arising from our financial difficulties, which had been affecting practically all other services for a very considerable time. For example, the Garda Síochána, almost uniquely, were exempted from the staffing embargo which applied generally throughout the public service.
The continuing seriousness of the financial situation meant that there could no longer be an exception for the Garda Síochána and that every aspect of the service they provide had to come under the scrutiny of the review I have referred to. This scrutiny was in fact carried out by Garda management.
It was in this context that Garda management came to the conclusion that "parading time" could be terminated and that certain other services could be reorganised, in furtherance of the objective of reducing public expenditure. In the judgment of Garda management, none of these measures will seriously affect the effectiveness of the force. In relation to "parading time", for example, the view is that necessary briefing can be provided by other means than by attendance which involved the payment of overtime. I understand that the up-to-date communications system now available to the force has a role to play in this. This is, of course, a matter for Garda management who must exercise the responsibility of ensuring that all Garda resources are utilised with maximum effectiveness.
The Government, in deciding on expenditure reductions, took fully into account the vital importance of the Garda service to the community. This is reflected in the fact that the financial allocation made in respect of the Garda Síochána for 1988 represents an increase of 1 per cent in the allocation for 1987 and the savings in overtime and allowances represent a reduction of less than threequarters of 1 per cent in the overall allocation. It must be accepted that a reduction of this amount is minor in the context of reductions which have had to be applied elsewhere.
In the circumstances that I have outlined it must also be accepted that there is genuinely no prospect that the overall allocation of funds for the Garda Síochána in 1988 can be increased.
I have already met representatives of the Garda associations and explained all of these matters to them. I would again express the hope that they and the members they represent, will accept the genuineness and the reality of the position as I have outlined it.
Would the Minister agree that there are some areas in the public service where it is both unwise and impossible to reduce the level of public expenditure and that one of those areas happens to relate to the security of the State? The other area, which is the one we are arguing about at present, is primary education. Added to this problem is the reduction in the numbers of gardaí that will be available to the public because of the non-recruitment policy that is now being pursued. I am quite certain that the Garda Síochána may find a way of briefing other than by the payment of overtime for parading time. Surely that was initiated in the first place for the purpose of briefing members of the Garda Síochána who were about to go on duty about what had happened in the previous hours when they were not on duty.
Further I would like to ask the Minister if he could justify to the House why the services of the juvenile liaison officers and other officers involved in crime prevention will not be available to the public at weekends because of cuts in overtime. I understand that the moneys involved in relation to the juvenile liaison officers and the other officers involved in crime prevention is small.
That aspect of the matter is worthy of a separate question.
I am asking the Minister, in view of the announcement yesterday by the Minister for Finance of a £1 million saving in 1987 in the Garda Vote, if he would review the Government's decision to cutback on Garda overtime and to dispense with the services of juvenile liaison officers and crime prevention officers at weekends.
In reply to Deputy Barrett's series of supplementary questions I think he will appreciate that I have covered most of what he further requested of me by way of information in my initial reply. Of course, I appreciate the Deputy's concern, as does everybody, with regard to cuts right across the board. Cases have been made here against all the cuts in all the Departments. As I said to the Deputy, the cuts in the Department of Justice are of a very minor nature. In fact there is only a one per cent decrease in the allocation for 1988 over 1987. No other member of the Government could stand up and say that they had that percentage decrease as far as their Department were concerned.
As Deputy Barrett said, there is a reduction in the number of gardaí as a result of the public service embargo. I have asked the Garda Commissioner to see whether a number of gardaí who are involved in what one might term desk jobs could be deployed to other places. That is a matter for the Garda Commissioner. On the question of recruitment, the House will know that there is no provision made in the 1988 Estimates for additional gardaí. That shows the seriousness of the situation as it is at present. With regard to overtime being paid for parade time, there is a saving on this of £1.7 million. Having attended a meeting of Ministers for the Interior-Justice during the past few days I failed to find any police force who have a system like ours where parading time is on an overtime basis. It does not exist anywhere. It went out in the year of dot. As Deputy Harney suggested a few minutes ago we are reorganising, rebuilding and restructuring, and getting ready for the year 2,000——
Not on a selective basis.
——and yet we are anxious to maintain, if at all possible, this type of set up. The Garda management have said quite definitely that there is no need whatsoever for overtime parading — briefing time.
As regards the other associations and sections of the Garda mentioned by Deputy Barrett — he only mentioned the juvenile liaison officers——
The crime prevention officers.
I will come to that in a minute. Grouped with the juvenile liaison officers are three other very small groups. They are very small in numbers but by organising their efforts during the ordinary five day week the saving here will be £0.3 million. As well as talking about JLOs and crime prevention officers, we are talking about public service vehicle inspectors and weights and measure sergeants. The Garda management have assured me that in no way will the efficiency of the force be interferred with to any degree by reorganising the way these people carry out their duties and they can give the service which is required during the normal Monday to Friday week.
I am particularly concerned about the role of the juvenile liaison officers. There is no doubt that the work done by these members of the force is very valuable in the area of crime prevention. Surely the Minister is unwise to take those members out of the districts they work in at weekends when youth are available through sports clubs and other clubs. It is not correct to say that those involved in that work are satisfied that they can do the work properly by working on a nine to five basis, five days a week. That is not the view of those men in the field. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider that decision in relation to the juvenile liaison officers because it saves money in the long term, whether it is in the area of health or crime prevention. If we prevent crime rather than have to deal with it later on that will save money and if we prevent illness we will save on medical bills later on. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider that.
The Minister said, in the course of his reply to my previous question, that there was no shortage of funds on the part of the Government when it came to dealing with the security of the State and crime. I maintain that this is one area in which it is very unwise for the Government to interfere. This is particularly so when we are dealing with a reduction in numbers in the force.
I have given the Deputy lots of latitude and that should be adequate.
I recognise that we have gone beyond the time but I want to say in reply to Deputy Seán Barrett that he seems to be under some misapprehension when he appeals to me as Minister for Justice not to take a decision. The Minister for Justice did not take any decision whatsoever in this. It was purely a Garda decision that the services we are talking about did not merit the use of overtime.
You can recommend when to change it.
It is easy for any of us to think on an individual basis that we can manage the force better than those charged with responsibility for so managing like the Garda Commissioner, his deputies and those who advised him that this was as it should be. That is their decision.
Would the Minister not take responsibility——
No, and the Deputy would probably be the first to tell me that I should not interfere in the day-to-day matters of the Garda Síochána.
Surely this is a policy matter as to whether the Government are interested in crime prevention.
That disposes of questions for today, both ordinary and questions nominated for priorty.
