asked the Minister for Justice if he will give an indication of the cost of the administration of justice in Ireland under the following headings: (a) the cost of criminal legal aid (b) the cost of civil legal aid (c) the cost of salaries of administrative staff (d) the cost of buildings and accommodation (e) the cost of payments to jurors (f) the cost of salaries of judges and other such categories; if the cost of the administration of justice has increased in the last ten years at a rate greater than or less than the consumer price index; if so, the extent of the divergence; and the approximate breakdown of the court costs as between criminal and civil matters.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Courts System Cost.
9.
The amounts provided in the Estimates for 1988 are as follows: (a) £2,200,000; (b) £1,920,000; (c) £9,479,000; (d) £1,097,000; (e) £52,000; (f) £2,693,000.
The estimated cost of the courts system has increased over the past ten years by some 280 per cent compared with an increase of 167 per cent in the consumer price index. Among the main reasons for the divergence are the fact that there was no civil legal aid scheme at all ten years ago, the exceptional increase in criminal legal aid over that period and the allocation of additional judicial and related resources.
Because of the flexibility within the courts system in the handling of civil and criminal business it would not be feasible to provide a reliable breakdown in costs as between criminal and civil matters. The figure at (d) relates to accommodation for which the Commissioners of Public Works have responsibility; it does not relate to accommodation provided by local authorities, separate figures for which are not available.
Let me ask the Minister first the reasons for what he described as the exceptional increase in the cost of criminal legal aid over the last ten years. Will he indicate whether the increases in the cost of the administration of justice which here are almost 80 per cent higher than the increases in the cost of living are of a magnitude similar to the increases in other comparable European countries or whether the cost of the administration of justice is increasing disproportionately faster in this country?
With regard to whether I have any information on a comparison between our costs and those of other countries I have not got that information but if we have it available in the Department I will send it to the Deputy. With regard to the estimated cost of the courts system which increased over the past ten years by 280 per cent as against 167 per cent in the CPI, the main reason for the divergence is the fact that there was no civil legal aid scheme. That scheme has been introduced within the past ten years. The exceptional increase in criminal legal aid over that period and the allocation within it was responsible for that high percentage, that 280 per cent, together with the allocation of additional judicial and related resources.
While I thank the Minister for his reply I ask him if he will be surprised to find I was somewhat dismayed that he did not have, at least in rough terms in his head, comparable information about the cost of the administration of justice relative to other countries. In view of the fact that he and other Ministers are allegedly spending all their waking hours worrying about cost control at present, why is he not conscious of the relative cost of the administration of justice? Let me press him further for information in reply to a specific question I asked him. He chose to describe the increase in the cost of criminal legal aid as, and I quote if I may at Question Time, "exceptional". Given that is his description, perhaps he could elaborate on why it has been, in his word, "exceptional".
First of all I should like to say to Deputy Bruton that he should not feel the least bit dismayed that I would not have a rough idea of whatever factual answer he was looking for from me in relation to this question. If the Deputy wants——
(Interruptions.)
Let us hear the Minister.
Deputies should not get wound up for tomorrow's party meeting.
The Minister had about three weeks in respect of this question.
If the Deputy wants factual information of specific value to him I will be more than delighted to give him any answer he seeks by way of putting down a separate question.
May I ask the Minister to appreciate that I am not necessarily trying to stock my own intellectual shelves with medicine or information? I am merely trying to inquire what is the level of the Minister's information in regard to his own Department. It seems in regard to the process of the administration of justice that it is actually rather limited.
This is leading to argument now.
If a separate question in that area is put down I will be very glad to oblige him.
A brief question from Deputy McCartan.
I should like to take the opportunity to put to the Minister a view and ask for his comment on whether he considers that the cost at the current price of £2.2 million represents exceptionally good value in terms of the service that is provided on a nationwide all courts basis to people who otherwise could not pay for proper criminal defence.
Why does not the Deputy put down a separate question and I will give him the benefit of a considered reply to it in due course?
May I ask the Minister if the figures he has given are gross figures or net figures? Has he taken account of the charges that are made by way of stamp duties and stamps on fees and documents to people using the judicial system and, if so, how much are they? Have they been taken into account?
I do not think they have. I will have to get that information and I will give it to the Deputy.