Vol. 379 No. 9
asked the Taoiseach the groups, organisations and individuals he met during his visit to the United States; the general topics discussed; in the light of his decisions, if any new measures are expected to be taken to assist the plight of out-of-status Irish in the United States; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
2.
asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the outcome of his recent visit to the United States.
A Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.
It is not the practice to make statements on brief working visits of this type. I would, however, like to take the opportunity afforded by these questions to tell the Dáil how encouraged I was at the favourable view taken in the United States of prospects for the economy here, for changes in the immigration laws and by the great volume of sympathy and support there is for the Irish people in their desire to bring peace and justice to Northern Ireland.
During the visit, one of my main priorities was to assess at first hand the present situation of Irish emigrants in the US and how our efforts on their behalf are progressing. I had meetings with the Immigration Working Committees under the aegis of the Consulates-General in both New York and Boston, as well as discussions with Senator Edward Kennedy who, together with Senator Simpson and Congressmen Donnelly and Schumer, have brought forward legislative proposals to reform the immigration laws. There is every chance that this legislation will be enacted this year. It would represent a considerable improvement in the position of young Irish people working in the US. I availed of every opportunity during my visit to urge the Irish-American community to use their influence to have the legislation successfully enacted. In meetings which I had with Cardinal O'Connor of New York and Cardinal Law of Boston, this issue was at the centre of our mutual concerns. I regard the discussions I had on this subject as very useful and constructive.
The promotion of the financial services centre, industrial investment and tourism were among my principal concerns in my meetings with US and Irish-American businessmen and in media interviews which I gave. Again here, I found the discussions extremely useful and potentially of great benefit to Ireland.
On Northern Ireland, I availed of my visit to reiterate a number of important features of Government policy. I reiterated again the Government's adherence to the Anglo-Irish Agreement to which, as an international accord, they are fully committed to working as part of the process for funding peace, stability and reconciliation in Ireland.
In short, I took the opportunity afforded by the visit to bring to attention in the US, across a wide spectrum of opinion, the main priorities and concerns of the Irish Government at this time, I regard the visit as having been very satisfactory and successful.
Will the Taoiseach indicate the extent to which the proposed legislation with regard to Irish emigrants will, in fact, protect those already in the United States and out of status? Will the legislation deal with areas such as medical care and support while these people are out of work and so forth? Also, will the Taoiseach clarify to the House his attitude with regard to Northern Ireland, in view of the confusion that appears to have been created by some of the statements which he made in the United States? Does he consider that the Anglo-Irish Agreement is now a long-term agreement and not one simply to be set aside at the earliest opportunity?
May I dissuade the Deputy from asking a series of questions?
I am trying to save the time of the House.
I would ask the Deputy to be brief and precise.
I am attempting to be brief, a Ceann Comhairle. In relation to the Anglo-Irish Agreement, what is the attitude of the Taoiseach now to the question of devolved government in Northern Ireland? He seems to be implying, in reports of his speeches, that he no longer sees that as a viable option for Northern Ireland. Will he clarify, finally——
Please, Deputy, please.
Finally, will he clarify what he means by the term "outside or transcending the framework of Northern Ireland"? Does he consider——
The Deputy seems to be embarking on a speech strung together by a series of questions.
I must protest.
Please, Deputy De Rossa.
I am trying to assist the House by explaining as clearly as I can the questions I have to ask.
I am sure the Deputy has made his point.
Let me just complete my final question. Does the Taoiseach consider now that there is no possible option for a solution based on an internal arrangement within Northern Ireland?
I think the only part of the Deputy's question which I understand is his question about young Irish people who are out of status in the United States.
That has been evident over the last week.
I want to assure the Deputy that a considerable amount of progress has been made in that regard. The Kennedy Bill, which has gone through the Senate and a counterpart of which is now before the House of Representatives, would greatly improve the position of many young Irish people. There is, of course, the proviso that applications for visas under it would have to be made from here. I do not think that would be a difficulty for most of these people. Apart from that, there is some political movement on at the moment to bring forward the date of the amnesty. It is difficult to ascertain or assess what success that might have. One of the main matters on which I was concentrating when over there was on the work on the ground which is taking place on behalf of these young people, particularly in New York and Boston where there is a great deal going on, through the Catholic Archdiocesan charities and through the city administrations and by means of the work of our own consulates.
I note in the Taoiseach's response that he states one of the principal reasons for the trip to the United States was the marketing of the financial services centre. In that regard he considers his job to be a job well done. I can only conclude there is less confusion in the United States arising from his trip than there is at present on this island. Will the Taoiseach outline to the House now in what way the media reporting on his visit were encouraged to report that he now favoured a federal solution as envisaged by the New Ireland Forum report? Alternatively, will the Taoiseach outline his view of a federal solution? Has the Taoiseach a strategy for achieving a federal solution? If this is the Taoiseach's ideal would he accept that a proper federal approach requires fundamental constitutional change?
In dealing with those points I will also deal with the points raised by Deputy De Rossa. The best thing I can do is to recommend that Deputies read my speeches. At no time in the United States did I even mention the word "federal" or a federal solution——
Did the press report you wrongly?
I am just stating my position. I never at any stage mentioned a federal solution or used the word "federal", nor did I talk about devolved government in Northern Ireland when in the US. I would ask Deputies to read my speeches.
What do you stand for?
It would be helpful if Deputies would read the four speeches I made over there.
We would love you to make a speech here rather than over there.
Please, Deputy Quinn, the leader of your party has asked a pertinent question, will you let the Taoiseach reply?
Any fair minded person reading those four speeches would accept that they presented a very fair and reasonable picture of recent developments and events in Northern Ireland, particularly since the beginning of this year. They also contain a very clear and specific outline of the Government's policy in regard to Northern Ireland.
A Cheann Comhairle——
Deputy Dukes.
A Cheann Comhairle——
I have called Deputy Dukes.
Will the Taoiseach indicate why at no stage in any of the speeches he made — and I read all of them with some attention, one with a full colour picture of the Taoiseach inside——
Why did the Taoiseach, at no stage——
——during any of those speeches spend any of his time pointing out the role that the Anglo-Irish Agreement would play in bringing about a move towards justice, peace and stability in Northern Ireland?
Hear, hear.
Why, at no stage in those speeches did the Taoiseach indicate what the next step in the process was, and why did he make it clear to any fair minded person reading those speeches that his references to the Anglo-Irish Agreement were just to take the bare look off things?
I can only reject that suggestion by Deputy Dukes. It was not anything near a fair assessment of the thrust of my speeches in America. In fact I would say that in practically everything I said on Northern Ireland I repeated in some detail all the things I have been saying in this House. For instance, with regard to the Anglo-Irish Agreement, I made clear both in my speeches and in press and radio interviews and in converstaions exactly what the position of the Irish Government is in regard to the Anglo-Irish Agreement — that it is in place, fully accepted, and that we are committed to implementing its provisions to secure an improvement in the situation of the people of Northern Ireland, particularly the Nationalist people. I am aggrieved at being attacked on these lines by Deputy Dukes who on one occasion, in an interview on 25 February, told Unionists that they were neglecting one of the strongest points in the agreement and that this was not emphasised enough, that that was the self-destruct mechanism in the agreement. Before Deputy Dukes starts to question me in my operation of the agreement, he should examine whether that is a particularly valid sort of statement to make.
I want to call Deputy Des O'Malley now.
Can I simply ask the Taoiseach, after that clever little quotation——
A brief supplementary.
——on which I must congratulate him, why he——
I am very annoyed——
Order, please.
——did not draw attention to the very feature of the agreement to which I was referring there, which is in fact——
I have called Deputy Des O'Malley.
I have a very brief supplementary to put to the Taoiseach.
So do we, and we have questions down.
There is plenty of time.
Will the Taoiseach say why he himself did not draw attention to that feature which is that as functions are devloved to a devolved administration in Northern Ireland on a basis acceptable to the two traditions there, the intergovernmental conference gradually reduces its scope of operation——
I thought this was to be a brief question.
——and would the Taoiseach not agree that by ignoring those facets of the agreement, he has cast doubt on his own adherence to it?
The Deputy does not do the agreement any service by his continual attempts to undermine our position with regard to the agreement.
I want you to work it.
I am beginning to suspect Deputy Dukes to some extent but Deputy O'Malley to a much greater extent. For them it seems that the agreement only exists in so far as they can use it as a political stick with which to beat this Government.
Rubbish.
That is a dishonest approach. This Government have clearly stated time and again, and I did it again in America, our commitment to the agreement and to the working of the agreement. A further meeting of the Anglo-Irish Conference will take place very shortly and everybody agrees that the last meeting of the Anglo-Irish Conference was one of the best and one of the most effective ever held.
If the Taoiseach feels so positively about the Anglo-Irish Agreement as he is indicating today, I am delighted, but why did he not express those positive views in the United States and in particular in the course of a very lengthy speech in New York on Northern Ireland and the problems relating to Northern Ireland? There are two brief sentences only in that speech about the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Will the Taoiseach say whether in reports in various newspapers here — in particular the Irish Times of Saturday last in which there was the headline “Haughey suggests federal solution to the North,” and which went on to attribute two sets of remarks to the Taoiseach in that regard — he is entirely misquoted or incorrectly reported in this respect and if the experienced correspondent concerned dreamed up all of this?
I am not in the business of casting doubts on any genuine attempts by journalists to report. They have their own job to do and it is often very difficult. I would just reiterate that at no stage in America or anywhere else have I ever advocated a federal solution for Northern Ireland. Now that we are talking about these matters, I would like if Deputy Des O'Malley would explain to me a remark I heard him making on television when he was up there attending the Alliance conference and when he was asked by a reporter if he would agree with the suspension of the agreement to allow the Unionists to talk. The Deputy's reply was: "I supose it would make it easier, but I am not keen to see it. I would hope that some formula could be arranged." If ever there was ambivalence about the Anglo-Irish Agreement it is in those remarks.
I said it never should be suspended. I have been asked that question many times.
Order, please. I am calling Deputy Dick Spring.
I have been asked that question many times and I have said it should never be suspended.
Order, please. Deputy O'Malley must resume his seat.
One of my principal reasons was that if it was suspended, I would greatly fear that the Taoiseach would not get it back on the tracks.
Were you misquoted?
The Taoiseach has come before the House today and asked us to accept that his presentation of recent events in Northern Ireland, as presented in North America, was fair minded. Would the Taoiseach not accept that it is incumbent on him as head of this Government to condemn violence at every opportunity? Why in that context was there no reference to the outrageous events in Eniskillen earlier this year?
That is probably the easiest thing to deal with. On a number of occasions I made absolutely clear the position of this Government and of all constitutional parties in this House in regard to violence. I made clear our condemnation of violence, our rejection of barbaric acts and our belief that progress can only be made through constitutional political action. The group of people I was talking to in New York were a very respectable cross-section of Irish-American opinion——
They would not allow you to condemn the Provisional IRA.
I know that if I were to urge that audience——
Not once did the Taoiseach condemn the Provisional IRA while in New York.
Deputy Desmond must desist from interrupting.
Deputy Spring might understand what I am trying to say if I had an opportunity to explain it to him. If I were to urge that particular audience not to support violence or the Provisional IRA they would be insulted. They are people who have. never had anything to do with violence. They do not want to know violence and in no circumstances would they ever support anything connected with violence. The people I spoke to inside the Waldorf Astoria are totally committed to supporting constitutional political action. The people who support violence were outside and they would not listen to what I had to say. Furthermore——
Why did the Taoiseach not mention the IRA or Enniskillen? Never once since he became Taoiseach has he condemned the IRA.
Let us hear the Taoiseach's reply.
I want to explain to Deputy Spring that I gave a major interview to American correspondents which I thought was probably the best vehicle for getting my views across to American public opinion in general. I went to great lengths in that interview to explain the position of this Government and all parties in this State in regard to the rejection of violence. I did so also in other television and radio interviews. Therefore, I think that is a very base, false criticism to level at me. The people I spoke to are people who accept it as axiomatic that no Irish Government condone violence and that none of us in this House condones violence. It would be totally counter-productive to suggest to them that there is any possibility that they might.
This is the first Taoiseach to go there and not condemn the Provisional IRA.
Deputy Desmond must restrain himself. I am calling on Deputy De Rossa.
Is it not the truth that if he had condemned violence it would have affected his fund raising?
In responding to my question earlier in regard to Irish emigrants the Taoiseach — and I thank him for his reply in that regard — indicated that he did not understand the second part of my question on devolved Government. I want to seek clarification on the speech which the Taoiseach made in America which was reported in The Irish Times of Friday last in which he indicated that he did not see a solution to the problem of Northern Ireland within the confines of Northern Ireland. What I want to ask the Taoiseach is——
The Deputy must come to the point.
——whether he was speaking in terms of his party's and Government's long term aspirations with regard to unity or was he ruling out any possibility of this Government assisting in the development of a democratic devolved Government within Northern Ireland?
The first thing I want to say is that I never mentioned devolved Government in Northern Ireland. I never accepted or rejected it and I never mentioned it in any of my speeches. I spent a long time in this House a short time ago giving in precise detail my full view of devolution in Northern Ireland and I did not feel it necessary to go over to America and start talking about it again.
The Taoiseach is running with the hare and hunting with the hound.
I am bringing these questions to finality.
What this clearly indicates is that the Taoiseach is ruling out devolved Government.
I refer the Deputy to the records of this House. I have dealt with this matter in detail. I refuse at the request of the Opposition parties in this House to become a parrot on these issues. I think it is necessary to say these things definitely and authoritatively when necessary but to keep on repeating them day after day when it is not necessary to do so is to debase the coinage.
I would like to ask the Taoiseach whether he met the Irish Immigration Reform Movement and, if so, what transpired?
I met them twice, in New York and Boston.
A Cheann Comhairle——
Deputy John Bruton has offered. I will call Deputy O'Malley shortly.
I understand Deputy Spring's concern because I think that is one of the most urgent and crucial issues in Irish America today and I was very glad to have had the opportunity to have a great deal of constructive discussion about it. As I say, I had discussions with Cardinal O'Connor, Cardinal Law, Mayor Flynn, Senator Kennedy, Congressman Donnelly and those young people who are now members of the Irish Immigration Reform Movement. My talks with them were very friendly, amicable and constructive.
In view of the short time left in the duration of the present Congress could the Taoiseach tell us whether he had discussions on a bipartisan basis with both major parties in the United States Congress in regard to the expedition of the immigration legislation or whether his contacts were simply confined to one of the two parties?
I did meet some Republican representatives but they were not at federal level. They were at local level.
That is not relevant. Is it not the case that the legislation must be passed by Congress, which is a federal institution, and if the Taoiseach is to have any meaningful opportunity to press this matter forward his discussions must take place on a bipartisan basis in view of the short time available? Could the Taoiseach name any of the Republicans he met?
The embassy is in constant contact with all sections——
I asked about the Taoiseach's interventions.
I was not in Washington. It is very difficult to make contact with any leading Irish American politician at present because the elections are taking place and everybody is fully involved but I can assure the Deputy——
Are there no Republicans in the state of New York?
Let us hear the Taoiseach's reply.
I told the Deputy that I met Republicans at state level and he told me that that was not relevant. The Deputy should make up his mind about what he wants to hear.
I asked the Taoiseach whether he met representatives from New York at federal level.
There is no need for this to lead to disorder. If there are no further questions I propose to pass on to another question.
Obviously, the Taoiseach has a one sided approach to this issue as he has on many others.
Could I ask the Taoiseach——
A Cheann Comhairle, let me reply to that by saying that this Government have taken a very positive and active interest in the position of the young Irish immigrants in the United States and are not ignoring them in the way the Government of which Deputy Bruton was a member did.
We know how to do business on Capitol Hill.
Let me add that not one single penny has been spent in the United States on their welfare, unfortunately, but the point which I want to put to the Taoiseach is this. In view of the Taoiseach's optimistic view of the legislation concerned which is now in the House of Representatives, has he taken into account a report which appeared in today's newspapers in which a spokesman for the State Department is quoted as saying it will not be possible under the legislation for Irish immigrants who are in the United States illegally to apply there and that it will be necessary for them to apply here in Ireland? Does he appreciate that it will cause enormous problems for them if they have to come back here to be interviewed when perhaps they will have little chance of getting back into the United States?
If the Deputy knew anything about the situation or took any interest in it he would know that that is a very unhelpful remark and question to put. I have already mentioned that if the legislation goes through, which looks likely, it will be necessary for persons to apply from their own home state but I also said that in my view that would not necessarily cause difficulties for most of these young people.
Ceist 3.
A Cheann Comhairle——
I have passed on to the next question.
