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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 24 Jun 1988

Vol. 382 No. 8

Estimates, 1988. - Vote 36: Tourism and Transport (Revised Estimate).

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £141,981,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1988, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Tourism and Transport, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants and grants-in-aid.

As this House is aware, my Department are responsible for the regulation of two very important sectors of our economy, namely, tourism and transport. They also, on behalf of Irish taxpayers, exercise a shareholder's function for four major companies in the transport field. The area covered is a vast one. Because of time constraints I will, of necessity, have to be selective in my remarks. However, my Minister of State, Deputy Lyons, will deal with those areas which I am not able to touch on, including road haulage. There is just one item in this area about which I would like to notify the House. At the EC Council of Ministers meeting on Monday last, I negotiated an increase in the quota of EC licences for Irish hauliers. Ireland's quota of licences will almost double from 341 in 1987 to 671 this year and will rise again to 940 in 1989. There is, thus, an opportunity for entrepreneurs in the haulage area to develop their business in Europe.

In the autumn session, I shall be moving a token Supplementary Estimate relating to the tourism area. I shall deal with tourism matters in detail then. Today my remarks concentrate mainly on transport and the tourism content is dealt with from a transport perspective.

I should like, first of all, to address very briefly the question of transport policy. Virtually everyone in the country has transport needs of one kind or another. Transport is an amalgam of thousands of individual decisions in relation to passenger and freight transport operations. Therefore, transport policies and issues are of direct concern to us all. Such issues arise wherever decisions are taken to use particular transport services, to purchase vehicles, to regulate their use or to invest in transport infrastructure. Yet the demand for transport is a derived demand, and therefore, developments in the sector are largely dependent on developments in other sectors of the economy.

It is also important to recognise that transport policy decisions are by no means confined to Government and that is as it should be. It is not the Government's function to legislate for the many decisions that need to be made by so many organisations and individuals in relation to their transport needs. However, it is the policy decisions of Government which set the regulatory framework within which organisations and individuals in the sector make their decisions about their transport requirements.

It has to be recognised also that the transport sector consumes a considerable amount of our national resources in enabling people to travel and goods to be moved. The fact that around 10 per cent of total personal expenditure is on transport and that around 16 per cent of gross national product is absorbed by the transport sector as a whole in Ireland, gives some idea of the amount of resources consumed by the sector. It is quite clear, therefore, that transport involves a considerable cost to the community in terms of infrastructural investment and maintenance, as well as the operation of services by organisations and individuals. There are also social costs, and externalities, arising from the adverse environmental effects of pollution, traffic congestion and accidents.

The commitment in terms of human reserves is equally significant. The sector is estimated to account for over 5 per cent of the total number of persons at work in the economy, with the State transport companies alone employing some 23,000 persons in Ireland.

As we progress towards the completion of the internal market in the EC, there are tremendous opportunities opening up for our transport sector, provided our cost structure and regulatory framework is conducive to enterprise. Our transport policies and priorities must be sufficiently flexible to enable the sector to adapt to these new opportunities, presented by the movement towards market liberalisation, not only within the EC, but also in the rest of Europe.

The transport sector must also be in a position to react to the changing national priorities. In this context we have redirected transport policy in a number of key areas. One of the most significant policy developments in the past year has been the reorientation of transport policy to serve tourism. Competitive access transport is crucial to our tourism objectives. Our potential visitors must know that they can get here easily and cheaply.

Air transport is quickly becoming the dominant access transport mode for tourism into this country. In the course of the Estimates debate in 1987 I spoke of the remarkable pace of change in recent years in the air transport sector. The momentum for change has been increasing steadily since then. Where it was in my power to do so in a national context, I have taken the initiative, while in international fora I have also actively participated in some major policy initiatives, particularly in the EC. As a result we have in the past year passed further significant milestones in the liberalisation of air transport.

In December 1987, the EC Council of Ministers adopted a package of measures on air transport as a first step towards the completion of the internal market. This package, which I played an active part in shaping, as did other Ministers, provided for the automatic approval of services on new routes, multiple designation on major routes, automatic approval of discount and deep-discount fares where they conform to specified price and fare type parameters and fifth freedom rights between inter-regional and hub to regional foreign airports, subject to a 30 per cent capacity limitation. In addition, I negotiated for Ireland a right to operate certain fifth freedom services between foreign hub airports. This was exclusive to Ireland and Portugal.

On a specific point, I must here express my total concern and dismay at the action of the Italian authorities in their failure to adhere to the provisions of the EC package of December last, by their blocking Aer Lingus fifth freedom services for Dublin via Manchester to Milan. The matter has been raised with the Italian Authorities by myself and my officials on several occasions in recent months but this has not prompted any change of heart on the part of the Italians. The EC Commission has recently indicated that it regards the Italian argument as invalid and that it has decided to open infraction proceedings against Italy for their refusal to grant the fifth freedom rights.

Because of the major emphasis now placed by the Government on the promotion of tourism and the importance of access transport fares in this context, I made it clear in the negotiations which led to the package that liberalisation in the area of fares and particularly market access were of vital importance to Ireland. The package which eventually emerged went a long way towards meeting our needs in this regard.

On a bilateral basis, I negotiated one of the most liberal arrangements in Europe with our nearest neighbour Great Britain. I have already stated at the Council of Ministers that it should be a headline for Europe in general. On 11 March last the British Aviation Minister, who glories in the soubriquet of Tara, and I signed, here in Dublin, a memorandum of understanding on revised arrangements for air services between the two countries. The new arrangements enable designated airlines of either country to operate between any point in Ireland and any point in Britain, without any restriction as to the frequency, capacity or type of aircraft involved. Under the new system of fares approval, fares filed by the airlines may be considered as approved unless they are disapproved by the authorities of both countries within 21 days. Either side may, however, individually disapprove fares of its own airlines in order to safeguard against excessive or predatory fares.

These new developments present the Irish carriers with major challenges and opportunities. I am very pleased with the prompt and positive responses which I have received in the form of a considerable number of applications for new routes from Aer Lingus, Ryanair and Club Air. In view of the Government's commitment to the development of Irish tourism, I have decided that all Irish applications should be considered on the basis of the following objectives for Irish air transport regulatory policy: (i) to promote the needs of tourism, trade and industry by providing a wide range of reliable and regular air services at the lowest economic cost; (ii) to promote competition in order to facilitate new services and innovative fares; and (iii) to encourage the development of a soundly-based air transport industry in Ireland which can compete effectively with foreign airlines.

Consistent with these policy objectives, I have given approval to Aer Lingus, Ryanair and Club Air for the inauguration of new scheduled services on a wide range of international routes.

Clearly all the new developments I have described greatly improve our access transport infrastructure with obvious tourism benefits. While the provision of infrastructure and capacity is vital, even more vital is the question of price. The Tourism Task Force, who reported recently, identified low-cost access transport as a critical factor in achieving the Government's target of doubling tourism numbers by 1992. The Government endorsed this view and I immediately initiated a series of discussions with our air carriers in order to achieve the lowest possible in-bound fares for the 1988 tourist season.

The results of these consultations have been very positive and I am satisfied that the plans put to me by the airlines, in relation to both fares and capacity for the coming summer season, will be a significant factor in generating traffic in line with, and in many cases ahead of, the Government's targets for growth from the various tourist markets.

These developments had a major impact on two of our major State companies — Aer Lingus and Aer Rianta. The profitability of these two bodies is a credit to our State sector. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Lyons, will inform the House of their financial performance. He will also give details of an Aer Lingus fleet replacement programme which is being carried out from their resources.

Although air is the dominant mode of access transport travel for tourism and individual travel, sea is still the dominant one for our merchandise trade. It is also exceptionally important for certain segments of the tourism market — particularly car and coach business.

We have had a series of discussions in this House on sea transportation policy, in so far as it relates to my Department, particularly during the enactment of the B & I Line Act, 1988. I will, therefore, be brief on this topic. Deputies will be aware that the B & I are implementing a plan of action aimed at restoring the company to viability. On the basis of this plan and its across-the-board support by the company's workforce, the Government agreed to provide the B & I with up to £11 million in Exchequer equity in 1988. We also announced that we would review the company's position not later than the autumn on the basis of detailed comparisons of performance against forecast. I am pleased to say that implementation of the plan is proceeding well and that to date the company's trading performance is in line with their forecasts.

Deputies will also be aware that the Government decided that £300,000 should be made available to the operators of the Cork-Swansea service from the budget allocation for a package of special measures for tourism in 1988. As I indicated to the House recently, in response to questions, the purpose of this grant was to assist Cork-Swansea Ferries Ltd., in marketing and promoting the company's services in the interest of increasing the number of foreign visitors to the south-west region. In consultation with the various tourist authorities of the south-east, with regard to the impact on 1987. I was convinced that it had a significant impact on the tourism numbers of that area. I must stress that the grant was an exceptional one and was facilitated by the availability of the special budget allocation for tourism development. It continues to be my policy that the Exchequer should not grant-aid the operations of private commercial ferry companies.

On the question of internal transport, as the CIE subvention is by far the biggest expenditure item in my Vote I feel I should give the House a comprehensive, if necessarily compressed account — because of time constraints of how the company are performing.

The allocation in the Estimates for CIE is £113.6 million. That represents the maximum amount which the Government can afford to make available for CIE this year. It is the net amount payable to CIE after taking account of the offset of some £45 million, in respect of payments deferred in the period 1985-87, against repayable State advances of £44.5 million, which were converted into non-repayable advances by the Transport Act, 1987, and after allowing for £3 million to be raised by CIE through the sale of surplus property. As a result of these arrangements we will be entering 1989 without any deferred payments outstanding.

The board's 1988 capital allocation, which is non-voted, is £15.3 million. It is designed to allow the board to continue to invest in equipment such as rolling stock, buses, signalling and communications and in Rosslare Harbour. The allocation is based on general policy for the board's capital programmes and enables CIE to provide the resources to meet their essential transport market needs.

The CIE 1987 audited accounts will not be available for a number of weeks. However, provisional figures for that year show a disappointing net loss. This resulted from a fall in revenue, partly as a result of industrial disputes in the bus sector, the costs arising from the conversion to one-person-operated buses, an increase in operating costs and substantial third party claims in relation to road accidents.

While the results are disappointing after two years in which the board recorded profits, I know that the chairman, the board, the management and the staff are striving to improve the performance in all sectors in 1988 and are being closely monitored by my Department. The emphasis within CIE now is on marketing their services, with attractive price packages wherever possible, winning more customers and at the same time striving to meet the needs of the travelling public. This is laudable. However, we must also ensure that both management and all employees in the company are fully aware of the need to reduce costs so that the level of dependence on the Exchequer can be further reduced.

The board's dependence on the Exchequer for normal subvention has been falling in real terms for a number of years. In 1985 the board received a normal subvention of £104 million. This year the figure for normal subvention is £98.9 million. Interest payable on DART in respect of 1987 was in excess of £16 million. The amount required for 1988 has been forecast at £14 million. The other main element in the CIE subvention is the £3 million payable annually for ten years under the Transport Act, 1985, in respect of a term loan for £30 million secured by CIE in 1985.

The Government decided in October last that no useful purpose would be served in carrying out further studies on the desirability of extending the DART system. This decision was strongly influenced by the knowledge that very large sums of money would be involved in extending the system and that there was no likelihood of such sums being made available in the immediate future. It was more realistic to explore what could be achieved on the basis of much less costly options. We must ensure that the travelling needs of the public in the Dublin area are adequately catered for and, in particular, that there are proper links between the centre city and the newer suburbs. Therefore I requested the chairman of CIE to prepare public transport investment plans for the Dublin area involving only bus-based options, or diesel services on existing rail lines. I expect to have the CIE plans in a few months time.

I will conclude my remarks on internal transport by informing the House of a matter of major importance for internal transport policy. The review of the Road Transport Act, 1932, which regulates the licensing of public road passenger transport services, is now completed. I hope to initiate new legislation in the Oireachtas this year to replace and update the Act and to provide the legislative framework for changes in policy in the sector.

I cannot, in advance of Government approval, give particulars of the specific changes which I propose to introduce. However, I am satisfied that the Act no longer caters adequately for today's transport market. In reviewing policy, I have taken account of many factors, such as the need to cater for the basic transport needs of the people, especially in less densely populated areas, the demands and expectations of commercial bus operators in the private sector, the competitive environment of the transport market and its implications for CIE and the developments in the European Community aimed at completing the internal market by 1992. Al of these have led me to the conclusion that substantial changes are required to service public transport needs, which are very different from those which existed when the Transport Act, 1932 was enacted.

I know that other Members of this House have some very interesting views on this topic. I look forward to having these debated in the same constructive manner which I wish to acknowledge I have enjoyed in this House for my present portfolio.

I mentioned at the outset that I had responsibility for four major State bodies in the transport area. I also have responsibility for the State body charged with implementing Government policy on tourism, namely Bord Fáilte. I have dealt with tourism policy and particularly its complementary aspects with transport policy in the course of my speech.

I will conclude not on a policy issue but on a personal one. In February of this year Paschal Vincent Doyle died. Many tributes were rightly paid to him for the tremendous contribution he made to many facets of Irish life. However, it is appropriate to place in the report of this House our gratitude to the man who personally made the biggest contribution to the development of Irish tourism over the past two decades. He did so, not only as a board member and chairman of Bord Fáilte, but also as the founder and driving force behind the biggest and most successful private sector enterprise in Irish tourism. There is unanimous agreement that the troika which will drive Irish tourism to achieve its full potential is a quality product, strong price competitiveness and professional marketing. While Paschal Vincent Doyle did not articulate this principle, he did something much more important — he practised it. We in Government are determined to motivate many others to follow in his footsteps and generate the jobs and wealth which we all know are possible to achieve from a well developed and managed tourism sector.

Molaim an Meastachán don Teach.

I would like to begin by saying how disappointing it is to be discussing in the House the Estimates on the Department of Tourism and Transport when we are excluded from discussing several elements of transport because of the way we organise that area in this country. For instance, we cannot talk about ports because ports are no longer part of the Department of Tourism and Transport. We can no longer talk about international shipping, other than ferries, because it is no longer part of the Department of Tourism and Transport. We cannot talk about roads and the road building programme, which are so essential to the issues of transport, because they are not part of the Department of Tourism and Transport. It is only right that we should highlight the absurdity of the changes made by the Taoiseach when he formed the present Government in hiving off, rather than consolidating, transport issues together and taking roads into the Department. He actually made the position worse. To that extent our colleague the Minister, Deputy Wilson, can be excused for areas where there has been a lack of progress because he does not have a co-ordinated role in transport. It is a ludicrous way of doing things.

Since he became Minister, Deputy Wilson has abolished the Dublin Transport Authority which was a retrograde step. A new draft development plan is being drawn up for Dublin and we have no transport authority. Sufficient consideration will not be given to transport issues in the draft development plan because of the lack of that transport authority.

We are having this debate at a time when Aer Lingus and Aer Rianta are both making substantial profits and when CIE have for the fifth year in a row drawn down less in real terms in subvention. Let us contemplate 1982, when Deputy Wilson left office. At that time Aer Rianta made a meagre profit of £100,000; Dublin was regarded as the second airport on this island — Belfast had a much greater number of people going through — and Aer Lingus had their third successive year of losses and CIE had their fifteenth year in a row of escalating deficit. In 1983, because of policy changes made then, that was all turned around. CIE have had five years of reduced subventions and Aer Lingus and Aer Rianta have had five years of escalating profits. The policy decisions which gave rise to these profits were not made in Brussels but in Dublin in 1983. In today's issue of The Cork Examiner there is an article on aviation which lauds Commissioner Sutherland for the success of aviation. Far be it for me to detract from the superb record of my colleague, Peter Sutherland, Commissioner for Competition in Europe. The Commission has been pressing for a more liberalised aviation regime throughout Europe since he became Commissioner. Italy, Germany, France, Spain, Portugal and Luxembourg have not had the growth in aviation that we have had because they operate, as they are free to do, a much more restrictive aviation policy than we have done for the last five years.

In March 1983, three months after the change of Government, a major decision was taken to license another Irish airline, Avair, to bring about competition and it has had profound results. It will have even greater results if the Minister continues to pursue the policy direction which we laid down at that time. I congratulate the Minister for pursuing that policy consistently. Because we pursued that policy consistently, starting off from an isolated position, and as the only country fighting for increased market access at the Council of Ministers, we gradually got it up to four countries and eventually up to eight. I remember well the Council of Ministers meeting where we got a majority for the first time because of our absolute consistency in fighting for market access and making it clear to our colleagues in the Council of Ministers that the distortion of competition cannot be removed if some airlines are confined to a base of 3.5 million miles — as Aer Lingus, Ryanair and the Irish airlines are — and others to a base of 60 million, for example, the German and the British airlines. The decision at the Council of Ministers six months ago which gave increased freedom rights to Ireland and Portugal, in particular, is a welcome step in the right direction but still only a modest step.

There is too much fear in other administrations in Europe about the consequences of liberalisation. They should see from our example that they have nothing to fear. In the Irish aviation establishment there was an overwhelming majority who had the same fears and advised against the liberalisation which we followed. We were told that there would be all kinds of doom and gloom if we opened the airways but now those predictions have turned out to be totally wrong. We have to sell that message to the other 11 countries. Admittedly, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom adopt, at least verbally, a liberal approach to aviation. It must be said that in the agreement with Great Britain which the Minister recently initialled, Britain seem at last to be practising what they had been preaching in relation to aviation. We have to sell that message to the other capitals of Europe so that Irish airlines will have access to all routes in the Community. It is the only basis for future competition and it is the only basis on which we can develop our tourism to any significant degree.

In concluding his speech the Minister talked about a troika of interests and in relation to one of them he used the phrase "strong price competitiveness". There is no doubt that where we must start in relation to the development of tourism is in the area of market access prices. We have done a lot about that but we need to do more and we need to do more about the business prices. If we are to get people interested in coming here we must have cheap access and they must be aware of that. I have been in London for the past four days on social welfare business and I spoke to a large number of people. A number of people who have never been here said they would like to come to Ireland but that it was very expensive to get here. During the course of my trips I visited a group called Age Concern who have a monthly newspaper, in the middle of which was a big spread about Ireland, promoted by Bord Fáilte which showed coach prices, return from London to Dublin, at £29. I took it with me and every place I went after that I showed it to them. In England people do not know about the improved access regime. We have to do more about selling those lower access prices in Europe as well as doing more about getting the overall prices down.

I do not want to leave the subject of aviation without saying a word about David Kennedy who is the chief Executive of Aer Lingus and who has announced his intention to retire. David Kennedy has had many detractors and he has also had many admirers. He has presided over Aer Lingus, as Chief Executive, for the past 14 years and he has done so at considerable personal cost. Undoubtedly, he could have earned a great deal more in aviation or in other business over the past number of years. I think it was his sense of patriotism that kept him in that post. I have no doubt that when he leaves Aer Lingus this year a very bright and prosperous future is ahead of him. The House should express its thanks to him for his great service to Aer Lingus. The magnificent condition of the company is a tribute to him. It would be wrong of me if I did not pay respect to the role Ryanair and Club Air have played in improving aviation services. One of my proudest achievements as Minister was the licensing of those companies, against a lot of advice. I hope those companies will have continued success.

I was disappointed that the Minister did not refer to the air traffic control or the air navigation services office which are experiencing many problems, some of growth and some structural. The consultants' report on those topics, which I commissioned, has been issued but the Minister has not told the House what he intends doing about the report, or what he is doing to improve the equipment and increase the number of personnel in the air traffic control and the air navigation services offices.

The Minister has told us that the Minister of State at his Department will deal with the question of road haulage. I should like to deal briefly with this topic not because I do not consider it important but because of the limited amount of time allotted for the debate on the Estimate. I understand that there has been a rowing back on the liberal agreement reached during my time as Minister at the EC Council of Ministers in relation to the opening up of European road haulage markets in 1992. I will be pleased if the Minister can tell me that I am wrong. In the course of his reply to the debate, will the Minister tell the House if there has been any change, toning down or decisions of any type taken at the Council of Ministers rowing back on a complete, liberal market by 1992?

If we are to maximise our position in the distribution sector in Europe we must think in terms of establishing an Irish distribution and warehousing centre on the continent. This is the fifth time I have put forward that suggestion in the House. The Minister at one stage told me he would consider that suggestion but later he pooh-poohed that idea. The Department, Córas Tráchtála, the agencies involved in meat export, haulage contractors and others, have a role to play in this. I would envisage a type of customs free bridgehead for Ireland on the continent, a centre where we can warehouse Irish goods ready for delivery to European markets. The transport of our goods to Europe can be disrupted by strikes and inclement weather and that leaves our exporters at a disadvantage in that they are unable to get their goods to the marketplace on time. There is also a cost factor involved. I am suggesting that we should have a centre which would have garage facilities, overnight facilities, translation and secretarial facilities, warehousing facilities and amenities for drivers who may be based there for one week. I should like to urge the Minister to pursue that idea as part of his policy on road haulage. It is in line with the trading house concept for which we received EC agreement. That concept has been the success of Japan over the years and we should develop the idea.

We will not be able to take advantage of the European markets if we do not cut transport costs. By 1992 our exporters will have to face VAT and excise disadvantages and additional transport costs and the Government should prepare a policy to ensure that our hauliers will not suffer any disadvantage compared with hauliers in the rest of Europe. If we can do that, we can win a big prize in terms of foreign earnings and employment. I urge the Minister to go after that with gusto.

I cannot sit down without mentioning CIE. I was disappointed to hear the Minister say that the company, having had profits after subvention in previous years, will be reporting a loss this year. The Minister did not elaborate on the extent to which the once-off costs of one-person-operated buses contributed to those losses. It may be that the losses are temporary pending the benefits of OPO which result in a high cost up-front due to redundancy payments and so on but, will lead to rewards for the company later in terms of lower costs. Will the Minister tell the House whether the losses reported by CIE are temporary and are based on the start-up costs of OPO? Does he expect the company to report profits in a few years? We agree to the Estimate.

At the outset I should like to deal with transport costs, particularly freight transport costs. In Ireland we have very high costs and they are proving a huge competitive disadvantage to our industries. They are very important from the point of view of the economy. The Confederation of Irish Industry estimated recently that transport costs alone here account for about 9 per cent of total manufacturing costs. On that basis, we spend about £1,000 million annually distributing our raw materials and finished products. Put in perspective, those costs exceed telecommunications costs, interest rates, liability insurance and electricity costs. It is obvious that they are a major handicap to our industries. They must have an adverse effect on the performance of our industries and we must tackle them. Any strategy to promote industrial development and create employment here must focus on the competitiveness of our transport systems. We must tackle the major problems in that sector urgently, particularly in relation to our physical infrastructures. We must deal with the taxes and duties that affect transport costs.

There is a need to improve our connections to our markets overseas, mainly in Britain and mainland Europe, because two-thirds of all industrial output is exported. Continental Europe is our main customer accounting for about 40 per cent, while Britain take about 34 per cent. We are all aware that when the Channel tunnel is completed we will be the only nation in the EC without a land link to mainland Europe. That makes the whole issue of competitive and efficient air and sea links and road haulage a priority, particularly in the lead up to 1992. The cost and time it takes to transport goods will be crucial to our economic survival from 1992 onwards. It is worth bearing in mind that each year we lose about £75 million worth of business to Northern Ireland ports. Goods originating in Dublin and destined for mainland Europe are transported to the North, put on the ferry to the UK, brought by road to the south of England from where they are ferried to mainland Europe. Transport operators opt for that route because of the heavy costs here. It is up to the Government to resolve those problems quickly.

I recognise that the common transport policy being developed in Europe will benefit us in that it will remove many of the present distortions to competition through the harmonisation of duties and taxes and the adoption of common standards for goods vehicles. I would say to the Minister that all that will be to little avail if we do not get our physical infrastructural problems sorted out. I am referring to roads in particular. As Deputy Mitchell mentioned, I know the Minister has no official responsibility as far as roads are concerned — that is the responsibility of the Minister for the Environment — but the roads system is surely exclusively about transport matters. In my opinion it would be much more appropriate that this Minister would have responsibility for development of a roads system that would have a major impact on reduction of transport costs.

While I am talking about roads, I would like to refer to the fact that the Minister abolished the Dublin Transport Authority earlier this year. Ostensibly that was to save the cost to the State of the chief executive's salary. The DTA were set up after much consideration by people who had expertise in the transport sector. Their primary function was to co-ordinate all aspects of traffic management in Dublin city which has chronic traffic jams and this adds hugely to industry's costs. The responsibilities for traffic flow have been fragmented. Responsibility goes back to the various Departments which had control prior to that. That was a mistake and it is a mistake that we continue with the present system of dealing with the development of our national roads infrastructure. At present the system is catered for by one Government Department — as I have said earlier not the relevant Government Department — and there are 38 different local authorities. That kind of an arrangement is not sufficient to deal with the major task of bringing our roads network up to European standards. If we continue to allow our road standards, including our bridges, to fall even further behind those in Europe, heavy goods vehicles will have to be banned from our roads and that will have a very adverse and serious effect on our economy.

Transport of goods in Ireland is catered for overwhelmingly by the roads infrastructure. Over 90 per cent of all goods moved in the country are transported by road. The railway accounts for only 10 per cent and that market share is declining because of the inflexibility of the rail transport system. There has been comment in the press in the last few days that the Government are about to unveil a package for road improvements. What we really need to do is to be much more radical and establish a new body that would have overall responsibility for this area, into which the Minister for Tourism and Transport would have a major input. We need to establish a tightly-knit group of people who have expertise in this area and who will tackle it in a very dramatic way because it needs to be done in that fashion.

I referred earlier to the CII, the Confederation of Irish Industry, who published a report on this matter in the recent past. They outlined a scheme which would cost, at 1987 prices, about £3.5 billion. Over an 18 year period it would cost in the order of £11 million per annum, taking into account the present State expenditure on roads, the expected level of grant aid that we will receive for the development of infrastructure and the jobs that would be created during the construction phase — I understand about 4,500 — as a result of the taxes that would come in from that and the savings on social welfare. A major project such as that, on an annualised basis would cost a relatively small amount of money. There are options available to the Government so that it would not even give rise to any increase in the Exchequer borrowing requirement because the private sector would be very willing to finance major sections of a national roads network. Up to now they have not been given the opportunity because the matter has been dealt with in an ad hoc way.

From the point of view of maximising the benefits of grant aid from Europe, it is very important that we would have a strategic plan relating to roads. Europe is now providing funding on the basis of a programmed scheme as distinct from funding projects which have a one or two year lifespan. We could be jeopardising our chances of getting the maximum funding available from Europe if we do not put some kind of strategic plan into operation immediately. We should address this problem once and for all which, as I said at the outset, is a major cost handicap and is one of the major reasons why we have such high transport costs.

The other area relating to transport which I wish to refer to is CIE who were subsidised by the State last year to the tune of £113 million. I am pleased to note from the Minister's speech that he intends to bring in amendments to the 1932 Act. These are long overdue because that legislation is not appropriate to the present——

It is not applied anyway.

It certainly needs to be upgraded. It is a bit of an anachronism and it does not really address the issues that we are faced with at present. I would like to see legislation introduced that would deal with deregulation of both provincial and Dublin bus services and the opening up of these services to competition. The argument for competition in both of these services is overwhelming. In the air transport sector over two million people will be carried this year by the various carriers who operate between Dublin and London. That is double the figure in 1985 when the route was operated by a cartel. Those travelling now do so for an unrestricted fare of £70 compared with £208 for the same journey before deregulation was introduced over two years ago. That was done in the teeth of strong opposition and pressure from the established airlines who wanted to maintain their cosy monopoly and to keep competition out. Lessons can be learned from the success in that area and can be applied in other transport areas.

In the phased liberalisation programme for road freight, despite strong opposition from the holders of the road freight licences it is now open to all those who meet quality standards to carry goods for reward without having the 1932 road licence. Deregulation of air and road freight transport contrasts with the position in the passenger traffic sector. Recently there have been prosecutions for operating express bus services to Dublin without having a 1932 licence. Not many people have such licences because the Department have issued so few of them over the years. Applications for licences are referred by the Department to the existing operators, including CIE which are, of course, exempt from the licensing system. The Department have effectively allowed those already in the business to veto any new entrants. As I have said, I welcome the Minister's statement that review of the 1932 legislation is long overdue. I hope new legislation will be introduced in the near future because it is essential.

Why should it continue to be a crime for the private sector to charge less than CIE to carry people from the provinces to Dublin? Why should it be a crime for CIE to face competition for the bus services that are provided in the Dublin city area? We have seen the benefits of competition in other transport sectors. It is long overdue that we take this matter by the scruff of the neck and resolve it once and for all. I had intended to comment on the tourism sector but unfortunately time is against me.

I would like to start my contribution where the Minister finished, in joining in the tribute he paid to the late lamented chairman of Bord Fáilte, Mr. P.V. Doyle. It was a great shock to all of us when we learned of his sudden death earlier this year. I offer my condolences to his wife and family. As Minister for Tourism, I had the honour and privilege on many occasions of working with him in his capacity as chairman of Bord Fáilte. I can only concur with everything the Minister said and once again pay a tribute to the work he did for this country in his capacity as chairman of Bord Fáilte and in his private capacity.

He was the foremost hotelier of this country and throughout the world his business acumen was well known. He gave much of his time to the semi-State bodies and to many other areas not connected with business. This man had so much energy and so many qualities that he gave himself totally to this country, both in the private and public sectors.

As I said, I had the honour of asking him to continue as chairman of Bord Fáilte. In that respect, maybe we leaned on him a little too much and asked him to do too much in later years. Nevertheless, he gave willingly and he set the headline for people in prominent positions to follow.

Tourism did not start when the Minister took office. In the short time I was in the Department I tried to bring tourism to the forefront in Government decision making. I took tourism from the Department of Industry, Commerce and Tourism and into the Department of Tourism, Fisheries and Forestry. The potential in this area is boundless. Tourism is head and shoulders above all other areas as an area with great potential for expansion. It is the second largest industry and could be the largest.

I initiated a major report into the operations of Bord Fáilte and I am glad the Minister has adopted and acted on many of its recommendations. I congratulate him for that. However, I cannot congratulate him for giving way to the pressures exacted by the Minister for Finance in reducing the amount for tourism, particularly the promotion of tourism by Bord Fáilte.

I noted with some concern the statement of the spokesman for the Irish Hotel Federation. On the "Morning Ireland" programme a few weeks ago, he expressed concern about the very small number of visitors staying in hotels this year. In the relatively early stages of the tourism year, he was afraid the efforts of the task force to bring people to Ireland were not benefiting the hotel industry. Admittedly people are coming home to visit relations and friends, but the efforts of Bord Fáilte were not reaching the market where they would make the greatest impact. The Minister said he will deal with this later in the year; that is only proper. I want to know whether he shares the concern of the hotels industry spokesman, and whether he thinks there will be an upturn for this industry outside this city, particularly in the west, the south-west and the north-west where traditionally the large hotels depend on these few months to make enough money to carry them over the rest of the year.

It is unfortunate that we had the rod licence debacle because this had a detrimental effect on our tourist industry. We have heard this has resulted in a loss of £6 million. This is something for which the Government must take a great deal of the responsibility. When I had responsibility for tourism and fisheries I advised against the precipitate action of introducing licences without proper consultations and debate with the people in the industry. This move was made by this Government simply because of cutbacks in the amounts granted to the fisheries boards. A sum of £1 million was taken out of this area, and half of that money is being used to ensure people pay their licence fees. This licence fee was not imposed to give more money to the angling fraternity but rather was an attempt to make up for the cutback. People should realise that this has led to a great loss to the tourist industry from which it will take the industry some time to recover.

The completion of the internal market of the European Community will have a huge impact on this country by 1992. The areas for which the Minister has responsibility — transport, CIE, B & I, haulage and so on — will be affected by decisions made now. The Minister told us of the Council decisions that will remove the Community and bilateral quotas by 1992. The number of quotas have grown from 84 in 1984 to 341 in 1987. There will be total liberalisation in 1992 and all quotas will be abolished from that date.

The Minister said that will benefit this country, but it is only right that we look at the other side of the coin. How will this liberalisation affect transport hauliers in other Community countries? The traffic will not be one way. I feel concern when I seek take-overs in the distilling industry in Ireland and the chocolate industry in Britain by companies from other countries. The easiest way for some of these companies to expand the haulage business would be to take over a big haulage firm in this country in 1992. Is the Minister concerned about the effect this liberalisation will have on Irish concerns, because just as we can influence the Community, other countries can have an influence on us?

The Minister spoke of challenges and opportunities which will affect the various companies and semi-State bodies in his area. These matters are spoken about by almost every Minister and by the Taoiseach when dealing with the internal market, but that is as far as it ever goes with this Government. We do not see the type of information campaign that is being carried on in Britain to inform all businesses about the challenges they will face in 1992. We do not see prominent businessmen — nightly these people appear on British television — advising other businessmen to get ready for 1992. I do not want to see a repeat of what happened here when we joined the Community in 1973. Many businesses went to the wall as a result of opening our markets to the influence of the European Community. After 1992 there will be very few derogations for business. We will not be able to appeal on the basis of our unreadiness. I hope the Minister will not simply refer to the challenges and opportunities but will tell us what business has to do, whether State, semi-State or private, in the area for which he has responsibility.

Developments in CIE and B & I have given some cause for concern during the past year. It is a little disappointing to hear that losses will be greater in CIE this year since I know the efforts that have been made by management and the workforce to bring CIE into operational profitability. I know the sacrifices that have been made. I hope the Minister will have a little patience with the board of CIE and encourage them to continue the work they are doing to bring about a sounder structure.

We all welcome the five-year action programme for B & I, drawn up with the co-operation of the Minister, the unions and management. We hope it will stabilise the position. I am glad to hear that results so far are in line with the projections in the agreement.

Obviously both these companies have a primary commercial role but they also have overriding social obligations to the community. These non-commercial factors should be clearly identified and quantified and due consideration should be given to their impact on the commercial operation. The cost of the socially desirable activities of both companies should be quantified in some way in their annual reports so as to reflect the real cost. CIE can very easily be pilloried because they appear to make a large loss. We are all aware of the extensive cost of the social obligations of that company but a better effort should be made to identify and quantify it.

B & I have a strategic commitment on the cross-Channel sea routes. This was never more obviously demonstrated than during the recent shipping strike in Britain, especially to the many people who regard semi-State companies as a great burden on our community. The strike started in P & O and spread to Sealink. Our exports piled up on the docks in Dublin and other ports and the effect on our export activity would have been hugely detrimental were it not for the existence of a commercial semi-State body like B & I. Without them there could have been a total disaster, especially since many of our exports are perishable goods. Other semi-State carriers have gone out of business and everybody must fight to ensure that a strategically essential company like B & I is maintained. The strategic importance of the company's activities should be quantified in the accounts.

We do not intend to press for a division on this Estimate. We accept that the Minister has taken several initiatives in tourism and other areas. We are grateful for the consideration given to B & I during the troubles in the company this year and the patience shown by the Minister. I remember the Minister giving a very clear warning to the company in this House. Fortunately that warning was heeded. We will be looking at the tourism brief later in the year, as promised by the Minister. It would be more appropriate then to consider how the initiatives are proceeding and how they are affecting this most important industry.

Beidh ganntanas ama ar an díospóireacht seo ar Mheastachán an Roinn Turasóireachta agus Iompair. Ní mór dom brostú. A major theme of the Minister's opening speech to the House was the crucial importance of extensive, regular and cheap access transport for our tourism industry. While this is now accepted as self-evident, it was not always so. It only became so after decisive action by this Government in the face of opposition from many vested interests. We were warned of dire consequences for our national carriers of introducing more competition or lowering fares. These have not happened. Instead, we have reawakened the spirit of enterprise in our carriers which was suffocated by the inertia which inevitably afflicts monopolies, particularly in the public sector.

As the Minister said in opening this debate, the recently introduced EC and Ireland/UK air transport arrangements, and the targets set by the Government for increasing tourism numbers, present our airlines with new challenges and opportunities. Our State airline, Aer Lingus, has responded particularly well to this challenge. We all can take pride in what is being accomplished there. They expect that a further record profit of around £30 million will be earned this year, the third year in succession that record profits have been achieved. The increased profitability of Aer Lingus is, of course, due in large measure to the group's own efforts to reduce its costs. The cost reduction programme is scheduled to make total savings for the group of £200 million by 1990. The reduction of costs has led to a trimmer but, I am glad to say, more dynamic Aer Lingus with a workforce which has shown a commitment to adapt to the changing environment of much larger competition.

The strong and growing profit performance of both its air transport and ancillary activities has enabled Aer Lingus to finance its investment programme, including the initial phases of its fleet replacement plans, from its own resources and without recourse to the Exchequer. It has been a matter of concern for some time that the age profile of the Aer Lingus fleet compared unfavourably with its European competitors. The company is currently engaged in the early stages of a fleet replacement programme, the first phase of which was implemented last autumn, with the delivery of two new B737-300 aircraft. As regards additional new aircraft, the Government approved in November last the placing of an order by Aer Lingus for the acquisition of four B737-500, at a cost of $107 million. The aircraft will be delivered in the early 1990s and will be used mainly on services to continental Europe. The Government also approved earlier this month a further order by Aer Lingus for the acquisition of two B737-400 aircraft at a cost of $71.2 million, for delivery next year. These aircraft will be used on the Dublin-London routes. While these aircraft are being funded without any additional State equity, the Government have made it perfectly clear that they expect Aer Lingus, as indeed all commercial State bodies, to earn sufficient profits to renew their basic plant. The days of the Exchequer being a soft touch are gone — and gone forever.

Another State company significantly affected by our major initiatives on the access transport and tourism fronts is Aer Rianta. Their results for 1987, in which a trading surplus of £17.5 million was earned by the company, were outstanding. The surplus shows an increase of over 30 per cent on the corresponding figure for 1986.

The low air fares policy which this Government are vigorously pursuing is the main reason for the dramatic increase in traffic through the State airports, with total numbers reaching an all-time high of over five and one quarter million persons in 1987. Over the next 12 months we intend to intensify efforts to stimulate further major increases in inward traffic from the US, the UK and from continental Europe, by a combination of improved tourism marketing and more attractive promotional fares which the airlines are putting on the market.

The boom in traffic through the State airports has, of course, created the need for a major acceleration of the programme of infrastructural investment in facilities at Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports. At present the State is investing up to £40 million in a number of major infrastructural projects at the State airports, including the new runway at Dublin Airport and an extension to the runway at Cork Airport. I wish to inform the House that work on the Dublin Airport runway project is proceeding satisfactorily on schedule and it is expected that the new runway will be operational by early 1989. The construction work on the extension to the runway at Cork Airport commenced earlier this month, despite the doubts expressed by a local scribe, and it is expected that this project will also be completed by early 1989.

As a result of the strong financial performance of Aer Rianta, the investment programme at the State airports is now being financed directly by the company from a combination of profits and borrowings. These new funding arrangements have been reflected in the Estimates for 1988 which we are currently debating and are the direct result of the Government's deliberate policy of reinvesting profits arising from the enormous growth in tourist traffic in facilities at the State airports.

In addition to the infrastructural investments at the State airports, expenditure is also well advanced on the major re-equipment programme for the air navigation services office (ANSO) on which it is expected a figure of £30 million will be invested over the next few years. In this context, my Department recently invited tenders for the replacement of the existing radar systems at Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports. The replacement of the radar systems will ultimately involve the largest single investment ever undertaken by the State in navigational equipment at the State airports. As part of the re-equipment programme, major investments have already been undertaken by my Department in the provision of new VHF communications equipment at the three State airports and on other operations systems.

In relation to communications equipment at the three State airports and other operational systems, up to £1.5 million was spent by my Department in these areas in 1987 and provision for further expenditure of £3 million on equipment is included in the Estimate for 1988.

The expansion of SFADCo's role to tourism development, as well as traffic promotion, opens up tremendous opportunities for the company. I am satisfied that they possess the skills and capacity to respond to the challenges which have been presented to them. While the performance recorded by the company in 1987 in the traffic development area was encouraging, I believe there is a need and scope for more substantial increases in traffic into Shannon during 1988. I am confident that SFADCo will continue to play a major role in keeping Shannon to the forefront as an airport of international significance.

Arising from the Government's policies in the aviation area, a number of the regional airports, particularly those at Galway, Sligo and Connaught, are booming. Passenger traffic levels are considerably in excess of original expectations. I am convinced that there is scope for further development of major additional traffic at these and other regional airports, provided they have appropriate facilities and are operated on a commerical basis.

The potential in this regard is enormous, as evidenced by the traffic generated by Connaught Airport over the last 12 months. Let me compliment it once again on the figure of 60,000 passengers achieved in its first full year of operation. This has been a remarkable achievement by any standards. I know that the airport company are planning further increases in traffic over the next 12 months. The recent decision of the EC authorities to provide grant assistance of £1.3 million for the completion of the airport project finally puts the seal of international approval on the project. Connaught Airport is now set to take its place among the airports of the world. The operational standards and efficiency of the airport and the dedication and commitment of its promoters will undoubtedly ensure the airport's continuing success in the future. Molaim an gaircíoch a rinne siad thall.

Because of its importance for tourism, I have concentrated to a large extent on access transport. However, I would like, before I conclude, to refer to the area of domestic transport for which I, as Minister of State, have particular responsibility, that is road haulage.

The Road Transport Act, 1986 brings to completion the process of liberalisation of the haulage industry begun in the early seventies. New licences, called road freight carrier's licences, are now being granted under the Act to existing licensees and operators in the exempted areas who held current road freight certificates on 30 September 1986. These new licences, which are unrestricted, will be granted from 30 September 1988 to all applicants who meet the EC wide qualitative criteria of good repute, appropriate financial standing and professional competence.

The Act also provided for the appointment of nine transport officers with powers of enforcement relating to all aspects of passenger and road haulage licensing administered by my Department and particularly EC regulations on drivers' hours and the tachograph. In the first year of operation these transport officers visited almost 8,000 premises. In conjunction with the Garda, they conducted inspections on approximately 5,000 vehicles at roadside checkpoints throughout the country. The enforcement programme is kept under continuous review so as to maximise efficiency and improve procedures. It is, after all, in the best interests of operators and drivers to adhere to the regulations which are intended to improve the safety aspects of driving. Infringements of the regulations are followed up by my Department and a number of offenders have already been successfully prosecuted.

On the international front, we have consistently sought new openings and opportunities for the Irish haulage industry. As part of the campaign we have consistently advocated and supported policy measures for the liberalisation of the haulage industry and obtained many more international licences for our hauliers. The Minister has given details of how he successfully negotiated an increase in the quota of EC licences for Irish hauliers, at the EC Council of Transport Ministers meeting in Luxembourg on 20 June. These open up many new avenues which Irish hauliers can explore over the next two years. However, beyond that the opportunities will be even more substantial. Many experts agree that intra-Community transport will, after 1992, be subject to qualitative criteria only. We must, therefore, gear ourselves up for the opportunities which will be presented by the opening up of a huge new market for Irish hauliers. I can assure this House that the Government will assist the industry, in any way they can, not only to face up to, but also conquer this challenge.

Let me very quickly reply to the query which was raised by Deputy Mitchell and say to him that there will be no rowing back of the liberalisation measures. Regular meetings with the haulage industry will continue to ensure that we will be ready to face the challenges of the open market in 1992.

This is a very important Estimate. I am somewhat disappointed that the Minister for Tourism and Transport decided to deal specifically with the transport side of his Department, ignoring the tourism side. This is particularly unfortunate as we are now facing a major problem. Around the world there is a five per cent annual increase in tourism and it is estimated that by 1995 this figure will have increased to eight per cent. Yet, in comparison, we have performed extremely badly. The recent statistical release on tourism and travel from the Central Statistics Office clearly indicated that our tourism and travel balance has been reduced substantially. In 1987 it stood at £180 million but when compared with 1985, when the figure stood at £283 million, we can see that there has been a reduction of £103 million over a two-year period. That is a matter of serious concern and is a problem which this House should be addressing today. Yet it has not been referred to by the Minister with responsibility for this area.

The Minister and his Minister of State have taken some extremely commendable initiatives. I agree that there has been an increase in the number of people travelling in and out of this country as a result of the initiatives which have been taken, in particular there has been a great increase in air traffic. While there has been an increase in the number of people travelling in and out of this country the actual number of tourists, as a percentage, is declining on previous years. Last year the number of tourists to this country was 708,000 but in 1985 this figure stood at 792,000, a drop of 84,000. In 1986 particular international events caused certain difficulties. I would like the Minister to take some radical initiatives in the tourism area because we are facing a very real problem.

A recent survey carried out by Bord Fáilte showed that over 41 per cent of those surveyed considered that they got extremely bad value for money in Ireland. In a similar survey carried out in 1986, 37 per cent of those surveyed expressed similar sentiments and in a survey carried out in 1985, 26 per cent of those surveyed also thought this to be the case. Therefore, an increasing number of tourists consider that they get bad value for money in Ireland and something urgently needs to be done to reverse this trend. Despite the initiative which was taken by the previous Minister to reduce the rate of VAT on meals in restaurants and hotels to 10 per cent there is still a perception among tourists that they get bad value for money here and this problem needs to be addressed urgently.

The Minister and the Minister of State outlined in their contributions some of the initiatives which they are taking, particularly on the transport side of their Department. In particular they referred to the reorientation of transport policy to serve tourism, but I wonder whether this will have any effect on the number of people travelling to Ireland. I am not disputing the fact that the number of people travelling to and from Ireland has increased substantially and, very interestingly, the figures show that the number of people travelling to Ireland to visit relatives has increased dramatically, from 700,000 in 1986 to 835,000. What we are now doing is counting those who have left this country who are visiting their families at every given opportunity and they account for a large proportion of the increase in the number of people travelling through our airports. In effect, there has been a decrease in the number of tourists. One of the initiatives which the Minister recently took was to introduce a special package for American visitors in September and October. My initial reaction to this was very favourable. I felt it was a very good idea.

During the past two years I have spoken extensively about the cost of car hire in this country which is far higher than in other countries, particularly the United States. I must admit when the Minister introduced this package I thought it was a very wise move but, having spoken to people in the United States, I believe that the number of extra holidays which will be purchased as a result of this initiative will be quite small. Basically, under this package people who have already bought holidays will be given a $50 refund. I believe that the £500,000 being spent on this package will not lead to any extra holidays being bought.

In fact, the introduction of this package has led to some confusion in the United States because those who have purchased holidays are now being told by their travel agents that, as a result of this initiative, they are to be given a refund of $50. They want to know why they were not informed of this when they purchased their holidays. They do not seem to understand that this package had not been announced at the time they purchased their holidays and a question mark is being placed on the credibility of some of the travel agents. I wonder would the Minister reconsider this package and spend the £500,000 in providing free car hire in order to entice those who have not purchased holidays. Perhaps the Minister's Department might consider this suggestion as this package has led to some confusion in the United States. As regards traffic from the United States into Shannon, I understand that the figures are down 18 per cent on this time last year, and this is a source of concern.

In his contribution, the Minister of State referred to SFADCo and their role in tourism development. He said he was satisfied that they possess the skills and capacity to respond to the challenges which have been presented to them. I fully agree with that but I am concerned that SFADCo, no more than Bord Fáilte, are not being provided with the necessary finance to promote tourism and carry out the necessary marketing. I regret that the Minister and the Government reduced the finance available to Bord Fáilte for marketing and promotion purposes. This was a retrograde step and we may be seeing evidence of this now in the reduction of through traffic from the US to Shannon. This is of substantial concern when one considers that there has been a decrease of 18 per cent in this traffic from last year. I hope that during the next few months there will be a significant increase to counteract the decrease at present being experienced.

Bord Fáilte are doing a very good job in operating as best they can in these circumstances. It would be remiss of me not to commend the former chairman of Bord Fáilte, Mr. P.V. Doyle, on the great work he did when he was chairman of Bord Fáilte. It is regrettable that he died at a relatively young age and I believe the tourism industry in Ireland has suffered a mighty loss as a result of his death. Mr. P.V. Doyle was a man of great courage, ability, initiative and foresight. He was one of the men who spearheaded the development of tourism in this country and recognised the potential that existed in that industry. He was one of the key people who assisted in the development of the tourism industry and it is regrettable that this country has lost a man of his ability. I believe his contribution to the industry will go down in history.

Are Lingus have made a remarkable turnaround in the past few years. When other State companies, such as Aer Rianta, had reversed their performance, Aer Lingus were still lagging behind. The turnaround achieved by Aer Lingus is highly commendable and they must be lauded for the tremendous work they have done. It is unfortunate that the Chief Executive of Aer Lingus, Mr. David Kennedy, has chosen to retire. He spearheaded a major unexpected turnaround in Aer Lingus and he must be commended for that. I hope that his departure from Aer Lingus will not damage the company in any way and that the good work they are doing will continue in his absence. I wish him every success in his new career, which I understand will be with the Shannon-based company GPA. I hope he is successful in his new job. We welcome him to County Clare and, even though he is joining an extremely succesful international company, we hope he will bring to Clare the same success he brought to Aer Lingus.

I commend the Minister on including tourism in the business expansion scheme last year. There has been a substantial take-up of the scheme but I believe there is greater potential there and more people should have an opportunity of getting involved in the scheme. Perhaps the Minister and his Department could highlight again the existence of this scheme so that people can avail of it. I believe some people are not fully aware of the significant potential the business expansion scheme has for tourism. Many people in the PAYE sector who do an honest day's work have never considered the advantages this scheme could have for them. This scheme should be targeted more towards the PAYE sector who could benefit substantially from it. The tourism industry could also benefit substantially from it.

In relation to road passenger transport, I hope the Minister will come to this House before the end of the year and introduce legislation which will liberalise the 1932 Act. It is unfortunate that some of the express buses which operated between Dublin and the provinces are not being allowed to operate by the Department. These buses provided a very good and necessary service. I know that CIE have been brought in on an official basis when the other operators have not been granted licences. That is unfortunate because competition is the name of the game. Private companies who have operated a service at a very reasonable cost to passengers should be allowed to operate. I hope the Minister will see fit to come to this House before the end of the year with legislation which will liberalise and open up the transport area.

Some of the companies operating to the west are not licensed by the Department but they are operating a very effective service at a very reasonable cost to remote parts of Ireland which, in effect, would not otherwise be served. Any action which might be taken by the Department to discontinue that service would be a retrograde step and I ask the Minister to examine this matter urgently. Not alone is it a transport matter but it is also a social problem. I am sure the Minister is well aware of the demand which exists within the public service for transfers from Dublin to rural areas. These companies provide transportation for people who are forced to work in Dublin but who would much prefer to work in their home counties. From this point of view these operators provide a social service and they should be favourably considered by the Minister.

There are many aspects of the Tourism Estimate which one could discuss. While commending the Minister and the Minister of State for the initiatives they have taken and recognising that the motivation behind their action is good, I am concerned at the figures which were recently released by the Central Statistics Office. There is a real need for some positive action to be taken to increase the number of tourists who come here. I am concerned also about the problem which has arisen in the west as a result of the rod licence fee. Many people have suffered serious losses in the tourism area as a result of this. I ask the Minister to try to attract tourists to the west and, in particular, to the areas which have been affected as a result of the rod licence dispute.

I should like to thank Deputies for their contributions to this debate. The seriousness with which they addressed it was an indication of their assessment of the importance of tourism and transport in our economy.

First, I should like to take up the constructive contribution made by Deputy Jim Mitchell. He mentioned the abolition of the Dublin Transport Authority. As he and the House know, when the Bill was going through the House I took an active interest in it and did a great deal of work to try to make it an effective authority. However, the Government made a decision — I am not going to whimper about it, I stand four square behind Government decisions — that in the interests of the wide-ranging cost cutting operation that was taking place in Government they would have to go. We have reconstructed the Dublin Transportation Task Force to deal with many aspects of the activities statutorily laid down for the Dublin Transport Authority.

I should like to pay tribute to Deputy J. Mitchell on his contribution to the development of the transport industry. The Deputy referred to the air traffic control service. An examination of the Book of Estimates will indicate how seriously we are taking this matter. Furthermore, such examination will indicate to him, and to the House in general, the very substantial budget available for the improvement of that service. Deputy Mitchell asked me specifically if I would make a statement with regard to the position of road haulage. He asked me was there a row-back, to quote his own words, on the liberalisation policy that was being pursued at European level in this regard. I can assure the Deputy and the House that there is no such row-back on the liberalisation policy. At one stage there was a serious problem, in that it was thought the Federal Republic of Germany would not support further liberalisation of the road haulage industry until there was complete harmonisation of taxes. As it so happened, the Germans have held the Presidency of the Council for the six months ending at the end of this month.

I must pay tribute to Herr Jürgen Warnke, the Minister who was President of the Council for the period, in that he pushed ahead very strongly with the liberalisation policy despite the fact that he was under pressure from industry in West Germany. We had a meeting in Hof in his constituency and for most of that meeting there were pickets on the meeting and a parade of heavy transport vehicles in a circle around the hotel where we were staying. Nevertheless he did work very industriously to get the package under way, details of which I have announced to the House. I should like to pay him a tribute in that regard. In fact, we all had a letter from Chancellor Kohl saying that that was one of the important items on the platform of preparations for 1992. There were other Ministers, particularly Monsieur Herman De Croo of Belgium, who was a longtime Minister of Transport in that country, and Monsieur Douffiages of France, who were very helpful in the development of this package, as indeed they were in regard to the aviation package of 14 December last.

Deputy J. Mitchell also reverted to a subject he raised in this House on a number of occasions about a trading house, a kind of Euro centre, to enable our exporters to have the best possible facilities in Europe to face the total liberalisation of 1992. I would see no objection to the vested interests, so to speak, mentioned by Deputy Mitchell — meat exporters, the hauliers themselves, IOTA and any other haulage industry people — wanting to do this. They will receive every encouragement, bar money, from me to do so. The amenities and so on that were mentioned by the Deputy, I am sure, would be desirable. There may be some difficulty about the establishment of such a centre and where it would be located. If the Deputy is suggesting that my Department should fund it, then I have to say, that as of now, they are not willing to do so.

There has been a good deal of study of the relative costs. When I mentioned the West German problem I should say this was at the root of the West German difficulty with regard to the haulage system. There have been studies undertaken on the relevant and relative — to each other — costs in this field and some interesting facts emerge. For example, our hauliers pay much lower road tax than do hauliers of other countries, including those in the United Kingdom and in the Six Counties of north-east Ireland which are in competition with us. Of course, that is a question with wide ramifications and, no doubt, will play a large part in the Ministers of Transport considerations between now and 1992. Suffice it to say that the liberalisation package is on its way, that we have achieved very substantial increases in the authorisations, so many that I am quite sure young, ambitious hauliers here will have an opportunity — they will have to be up and at it, so to speak — of developing businesses to the Continent in the mean-time.

As of now — and it would be impossible for me to give a breakdown as to the OPO percentage of the losses CIE are incurring — I know that the management of CIE attach great importance to having this in place to cut the serious losses being incurred, particularly in their Bus Átha Cliath operations. Despite the fact that Mr. David Kennedy has still a number of months to go as Chief Executive of Aer Lingus, I should like to endorse the remarks made by Deputy J. Mitchell. I have already paid public tribute to him for his service to the company and no doubt I will have something to add when his term of office comes to an end.

Deputy P. O'Malley rightly emphasised the fact that the Confederation of Irish Industry has been concentrating on the overall cost of transport to the economy. I do not know about the assessment of the loss to the Northern Ireland routes. I should say that frequency is very important in the Northern context. The Larne/Stranraer crossing, which is very short, as the House will know, is attractive, in that its frequency of service is rendered much easier because of the shortness of the route and has attracted hauliers. I am not in a position either to deny or accept the figure of £75 million mentioned by Deputy O'Malley.

As the House will know, I have not responsibility for roads. A number of people would be anxious to give me that responsibility. If ever there is any decision taken to do so, I will accept it gratefully but it is a difficult problem.

One would get to Cavan in no time at all.

There would be a six-lane run to Cavan before very long should that happen. It is interesting that, at European level, transport is very much linked into the overall roads position.

Deputy O'Malley mentioned the danger of heavy goods vehicles being banned here because of the lack of a proper roads and, in particular, bridge infrastructure. As the House knows, both the United Kingdom and Ireland have a 38 tonne weight limit on haulage vehicles. We think we could raise that limit to 40 tonnes. Of course, there are various regulations about weight on specific axles. Road and bridge infrastructure impinge very heavily on transport and we deal with that matter in the European Council. Very detailed examination of the road and bridge structures is taking place. Specifically, on bridge structures alone, over 2,500 bridges have been tested and examined in the light of the weight of vehicle allowed. Later in the year the Minister for the Environment will be publishing a blueprint for the whole system, including bridges. Already, £2 million has been allocated for expenditure on the strengthening of bridges, with a view to their being able to cope with the heavier traffic.

Deputy O'Malley rightly said that programmes will be integrated for the future. I can assure him that as far as my Department are concerned — and I am sure the Minister for the Environment would back this up — there will be no loss of money from Europe because of any dilatoriness on our part. I mentioned that the 1932 Act has been examined and I hope to be coming to the House with legislative proposals in the very near future. It is said that all comparisons limp, but one point at which the comparison between air — especially the Dublin-London air route — and road transport particularly limps is that there is no social implication as far as air transport is concerned but there is very much a social implication, as Deputy Kavanagh has said, with regard to road transport.

Deputy Kavanagh raised a point about the fears of the Irish Hotels Federation regarding the numbers of visitors coming to the country having increased substantially but that not all that many of these stay in hotels. I heard the interview in question and the man from the Irish Hotels Federation who was being interviewed indicated that it was early days yet, that it was difficult to give an overall assessment of the position. I am sure that the increased numbers that will come as a result of our marketing effort will help to increase the numbers who stay in hotels here. I want to make it clear that just saying that people are visiting friends and relations seems to imply that they are not important. They are important. Their money is as good as that of anybody else. If my daughter, who lives in Reading, comes home and spends money here, she is helping this economy by her visits and the more visits she pays, for various reasons, the better I like it. Various organisations in Britain see this slight denigration of that type of visitor and are offended by it. They have indicated that to me on a number of occasions when I visited London and Birmingham on promotional trips.

The rod licence issue was touched upon and the Government were roundly blamed for it by Deputy Kavanagh. Everything that has to be said about it has been said. Recently there was a joust in this House on this topic. The Minister for the Marine made the Government position quite clear.

The impact of 1992 on the haulage industry was also mentioned by Deputy Kavanagh. As he knows, at European level all these matters, whether air, road, or sea transport, are being teased out meticulously. We are fully au fait with what 1992 will mean for our hauliers. We are taking the trouble to inform the representative haulage associations about it. They appreciate the problems, are studying them and making their plans. One of the benefits from what happened this week is that there is a four-year advantage for them, particularly in this country, where there will be enough authorisations and the hauliers will have an opportunity to make decisions about investment, developments and getting together to deal with the various problems that arise.

Deputy Kavanagh mentioned the question of takeovers and so on. There are problems in this area that will arise from what will happen in 1992. We know that the insurance companies have already been alerted in that regard. That will go right across the total spectrum of our economic life. Each individual sector will have to be alert and have its plans in place for 1992 to preserve its own position. Deputy Kavanagh said that our campaign is not as good as Britain's——

It is not there at all.

——with regard to alerting the various sectors of the economy. As the Deputy knows, the Taoiseach has already on a number of occasions taken great pains to outline the position with regard to 1992 and is launching a campaign in the very near future in that regard. We will not be found wanting.

Minister MacSharry is prepared to go straight away.

I am not in the business of prophecy.

Speculation.

Deputy Kavanagh also called for patience with CIE management and workers with regard to their new plans. As I have said, strenuous efforts are being made to improve the situation with regard to CIE. I have also said in the House, and I repeat, that our objective is to have CIE not so heavily dependent on Government subsidy for their existence. At various times there were apparent improvements; for example, in 1986 there was the entitlement — if that is the right word — to £16.292 million with regard to DART interest charges. Not one penny of that was paid. There was a shortfall of £16.292 million. We must look starkly at these accounts in order to get at the truth.

Deputy Kavanagh referred at some length to the B & I arrangement and approved of our work. I am grateful to him for that because much sweat and tears went into it on the part of my Department and of management. I must pay tribute also to those who were negotiating from the trade union point of view. The Deputy mentioned B & I as having a social role. I would not accept that in the same sense as CIE have a social role, but would endorse, and endorse heavily, his remarks with regard to how essential it is to have a viable B & I operating. It is essential for our exporters that they be provided with a good service. When the recent strike took place — which had nothing to do with our economy, our country, our workers, our producers — it became very obvious how important it was to have a viable B & I in place. On several nights I was awakened by phone calls from meat exporters and mushroom growers who were in serious difficulties with perishable goods that they could not get out of the country. I pay tribute to B & I for the efforts they made to accommodate as much freight at that time as was possible.

Deputy Taylor-Quinn concentrated very heavily on tourism and I indicated that we would have a full discussion on this matter later in the year. We will deal with a Supplementary Estimate at that stage. I have already referred to the VFR situation which is not as impactive in Dalcassian territory as it is elsewhere because, as the Deputy knows, Shannon is a multi-ethnic attraction.

Making comparisons with 1985, with regard to the North American market and specifically the US market, are not relevant because at that time one dollar purchased one punt and now it takes 1.50 dollars to purchase one punt. Although the weather in 1985 and 1986 was very bad it is not fruitful to make comparisons because the conditions are not the same, we are not comparing like with like.

What about 1984?

I am grateful to Deputy Taylor-Quinn for raising the car rental initiative. She welcomed it but pointed out some difficulties in this regard. I received a letter from a specific operator, which I read yesterday, and its substance was mentioned by the Deputy. As a general principle, it has a good marketing effect, whatever about relating it to the individual. It will be beneficial to tourism to be able to offer a 50 dollar gift to people renting cars here. There may be difficulties in regard to people who have already made arrangements for September-October. We had the same kind of difficulty in 1987 with regard to the initiatives which we took then. However, the terms of the scheme will have to stand now; otherwise we would be only adding confusion to confusion.

With regard to the funding of SFADCo I have been looking at the details of the Estimate. I want to point out that about £300,000 have been provided for additional tourism responsiblities due to the transfer to SFADCo. Deputy Taylor-Quinn also referred to the 1932 Act and I covered that adequately in my introductory speech. It is the law, I am tied by it and any alterations I give to private transport companies must be within the law. Nobody in the House would expect me to break the law in that regard. I said that we have already concluded consideration of the 1932 Act and that I will be bringing legislative proposals to the House to amend it before the end of the year. I know that people operating private transport, particularly to and from Dublin at weekends, are supported by many young people and that they are providing good value for money.

Mar a dúirt mé ar dtús, tá mé buíoch de na Teachtaí a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht. D'éist mé go cúramach leo. Tá súil agam go mbeidh said ag comh-oibriú liom chun feabhas a chur ar chúrsaí iompair agus turasóireachta. Mar a dúirt mé cheana féin, beidh díospóireacht níos leithne againn ag deireadh na bliana mar gheall ar an turasóireacht.

Vote put and agreed to.
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