(Limerick East) asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement on the future of teacher training in Ireland.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Teacher Training.
60.
The recruitment needs of the colleges of education for primary teachers is one of the areas being addressed by the Primary Education Review Body, and the work of the review body on the primary curriculum may, in turn, have implications for future teacher training in Ireland. At the international level, a review of the Irish educational system with particular reference to teacher education and supply is being carried out by the OECD. I do not propose to pre-empt the work of these review bodies by making a general statement on teacher training at this stage.
Specialist teachers will continue to be trained at Thomond College of Education. The numbers trained and the nature of the training will be kept under review.
(Limerick East): Can I ask the Minister to give a guarantee that Mary Immaculate training college in Limerick, St. Patrick's training college, Drumcondra, Marino training college or the Church of Ireland training college in Rathmines will not be closed as a result of any decision taken by the Government over the next three years?
I would be a foolish lady to give such a guarantee. I would not be prepared at any stage to give a guarantee of that nature. As I have said in my reply, the recruitment needs of the colleges of education for primary teachers is one of the areas being addressed by the Primary Education Review Body and the OECD. It ill behoves the Deputy and the Fine Gael Party to talk about closing teacher training colleges. The previous closure took place in a highly precipitous fashion.
(Limerick East): As the spokesperson on Education who cried visible tears on the closure of Carysfort training college, could the Minister give a more limited guarantee that neither Mary Immaculate training college in Limerick nor St. Patrick's in Drumcondra will be closed in 1989?
We are having repetition.
(Limerick East): It is not repetition.
Pending the receipt of the various review findings which are at present being undertaken, I would not be in a position to make any further comment except to say that the matter is constantly under review. The Deputy is aware that I was in Limerick recently. I am aware of the very fine work being carried out by the college there and also by St. Patrick's in Drumcondra, Marino training college and the Church of Ireland training college.
(Limerick East): I accept——
Let us have a brief supplementary, Deputy. I am anxious to dispose of all the priority questions before the prescribed time.
(Limerick East): Yes, but this is a very important matter too. I agree with the Minister on the great work being carried out by the training colleges but that is not much good when the Minister still will not give an assurance to the House that she does not intend to close a training college in 1989. Is the Minister aware that none of the 600 teacher training graduates in 1988 has yet got a permanent position in a primary school?
Does the Deputy's second question not show a complete dichotomy in relation to the previous questions? He has asked me to ensure that in the foreseeable years none of the teacher training colleges will be closed. In his second supplementary he asked me if I am aware that the graduates of teacher training colleges have not got positions. You cannot have your cake and eat it.
Question No. 61.
(Limerick East): A Cheann Comhairle——
I am sorry. I cannot dwell unduly long on any of these questions.
(Limerick East): I wish to ask a final supplementary. Is the Minister aware that one can easily have one's cake and eat it if she were to fulfil in Government the promises she made in Opposition on reducing the pupil-teacher ratio? That would absorb the surplus of the 600 young teachers, none of whom has got a job. It would put the Minister in a position to give a guarantee, which she will not give, that she will not close down Mary Immaculate training college in Limerick or St. Patrick's in Drumcondra. The Minister should admit that she is being hypocritical.
Please, let us deal with another question.
The Deputy is not aware of the statistics and that is why I placed such emphasis on the professional study which we are carrying out through the primary review committee. It is quite obvious that Deputy Noonan has not studied the demographic forecast for the year 2000. Under the Programme for National Recovery the envisaged pupil-teacher ratio will be revised downwards from 1990. Even if it were progressively altered downwards throughout that decade there would still be a very serious problem by the year 2000 with regard to falling pupil enrolments and teacher supply needs. I accept that, as the Deputy is not the official spokesperson on Education, he will not have those statistics at his fingertips.
(Limerick East): Do not patronise me. I am not talking about the year 2000 but about 1989. Is the Minister going to close a training college or not?
In complete contrast to the previous Government, who just took a precipitate decision overnight, I will not do that.
(Limerick East): The Minister will only close them after she receives the report.
I will have the whole matter fully investigated and reported upon and the facts fully known.
Question No. 61, please.
(Limerick East): I do not——
Deputy Noonan ought to assist me in dealing with his questions. I am calling his next question, No. 61.
With respect——
(Limerick East): The Minister is running——
Deputy Noonan, this is most disorderly.
(Limerick East): I am looking for a guarantee for next year. This is outrageous.
I have given the Deputy every latitude and he knows that well. Question No. 61, please.
(Limerick East): I respect the Chair but the Minister has given replies whose ambiguity is most annoying. I am sure you are annoyed too, a Cheann Comhairle:
The Deputy is being unfair to the other Deputies.