Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Feb 1989

Vol. 387 No. 2

Garda Síochána Bill, 1989: Second Stage.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Collins)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to amend the Garda Síochána Act, 1924, and the Police Forces Amalgamation Act, 1925 to enable members of the Garda Síochána to serve outside the State with peace-keeping forces of the United Nations. There is a particular reason for this Bill being introduced now and for its passage through the House being a matter of some urgency. Following the successful conclusion of negotiations between all the parties concerned in the dispute over Namibia, South West Africa, Ireland has been called on to supply in the next few weeks a national contingent of members of the Garda to serve there with the United Nations forces. The UN force in Namibia will be known as the United Nations Transition Assistance Group (UNTAG) and it will assist in the peaceful transfer of power in that country to its own population. The Garda Síochána Acts preclude members of the Garda from serving outside the State and the Government are advised that it is necessary to enact amending legislation now to enable them to respond urgently to this request from the United Nations and, indeed, to be enabled to meet any future such request.

As the House will know, Ireland has taken a keen, and sometimes prominent, interest in Namibian independence. Since we joined the United Nations in 1955, successive Irish Governments have spoken out against South Africa's occupation of the territory and have urged the international community to bring pressure to bear on South Africa to withdraw from the territory so that its people could exercise their right to self-determination.

I do not think it is necessary for me here to rehearse the entire history of United Nations involvement in the Namibia issue, a history that is long and complex — politically, diplomatically and legally. It is, nevertheless, worth while to recall its main outlines.

In 1920, South Africa was entrusted by the League of Nations with a mandate over the territory of South West Africa, now called Namibia. After the demise of the League, South Africa, unlike other mandatory powers, declined in 1946 to place the territory under UN trusteeship. It declined also in 1949 to continue submitting reports to the UN on the territory as it was obliged to do under the UN Charter. Moreover, in 1950 it refused to accept the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice which held that the functions of supervision under the mandate should be exercised by the United Nations.

Throughout the fifties and sixties, while South Africa consolidated its position in Namibia and applied to the territory many of its apartheid policies, the UN continued with its efforts. In 1966 the General Assembly declared South West Africa to be henceforth a direct responsibility of the United Nations and the following year called on the Security Council to take effective measures to ensure the removal of the illegal presence of South Africa from the territory.

In 1969 the Security Council reaffirmed the termination of South Africa's mandate by the Assembly, called upon South Africa to withdraw its illegal presence and stated that if South Africa failed to do so the Council would decide on necessary measures in accordance with the Charter. Ireland fully supported the decision of the General Assembly to terminate the mandate and welcomed the Security Council's decision to assume its responsibilities.

The legal position was clarified beyond any doubt in an advisory ruling of the International Court in 1971 which held that South Africa was under an obligation to withdraw from Namibia immediately and that the member states of the United Nations were under an obligation to recognise the illegality of South African presence there. This opinion was accepted by the Security Council and its efforts since then have been directed towards giving effect to these decisions.

These efforts have crystallised around two important Security Council Resolutions which provide the basis for the present settlement of the long running dispute over Namibia. Resolution 385 in 1976 declared it imperative that free elections under the supervision and control of the United Nations be held for the whole of Namibia. Resolution 435 in 1978 endorsed an independence plan for Namibia based on settlement proposals drawn up the previous year by five members of the Security Council, viz., the USA, Britain, France, the Federal Republic of Germany and Canada.

Following several abortive attempts by the UN to persuade South Africa to accept the UN settlement plan, the US in May 1988 initiated a series of talks with Angola, Cuba and South Africa to consider possibilities for a settlement to the conflicts in both Namibia and Angola. These negotiations finally reached a successful conclusion in December 1988 with the formal signing in New York of a series of agreements which paved the way with respect to Namibia for the official establishment of the United Nations Transition Assistance Group (UNTAG). The role of the group set out in the UN Plan of 1978 is to oversee the transition of Namibia to independence.

This plan which is currently under review by the UN envisages the establishment of a group comprising a military component of seven battalions of which four will be held in reserve, a police component of 500 and a civilian staff the number of which has not been determined. The functions of the police component, which will be required for a period of up to one year, will be essentially to prevent any intimidation or interference in the electoral process and to oversee the conduct of the existing police force in Namibia during the transition period. The police will be organised in units drawn from the various national contingents. The Government have already agreed to a UN request to provide 20 military observers for Namibia and these will be drawn from the ranks of the Permanent Defence Forces.

In 1978 when the plan on which the present negotiations are based was first developed, Ireland was asked by the UN, and agreed in principle subject to the necessary legislative and administrative arrangements, to provide a national contingent of gardaí.

The UN has now renewed that request for gardaí to serve with UNTAG and a contribution of up to 35 members of the force to the total police component of 500 has been sought. A breakdown of the ranks of those it is proposed to send is as follows: one chief superintendent, two superintendents, two inspectors, seven sergeants and 23 gardaí. The financial arrangements are likely to be similar to those for UNIFIL, the United Nations Interim Force in the Lebanon.

Namibia is the last major colonial issue before the United Nations and the Government are in no doubt that a successful outcome to a peaceful transition to independence there will represent a major success for the United Nations Organisation and, indeed, for the rule of law and for the principle of settling international disputes by negotiation. Our commitment to Namibian independence and our peacekeeping record with the UN in many parts of the world suggest that we should agree to help the United Nations in resolving one of its longest outstanding issues and one of its largest ever undertakings. I am confident that our gardaí can, if called upon to do so, enhance the already outstanding peacekeeping record of our Defence Forces, and play a distinguished and honourable role in the historic task of helping to bring independence and self-determination to Namibia and peace and security to a troubled region.

I would like to turn now to the contents of this short Bill. Section 2, subsection (1) empowers the Government to send a contingent of the Garda Síochána for service outside the State with an international United Nations Force and subsection (2) of section 2 enables the Government to determine the number and ranks of the members of the Garda Síochána who would be included in such a contingent.

Section 3 of the Bill ensures that all the members of such a Garda contingent would be volunteers and that, ultimately, the decision about whose offers to serve would be accepted would rest with the Garda Commissioner.

On Committee Stage I propose to move an amendment which will provide for the registration here of certain births and deaths occurring overseas during the service of contingents of the Garda Síochána with the UN. This is intended particularly to deal with the situation in places where the civil authorities are not in a position to provide such certification, or to do so sufficiently quickly, because of disorder in the country in question or for any other reason.

The death of gardaí on overseas service may not be a particularly likely eventuality and it is one that we would all earnestly wish would not occur. However, I am sure Members will agree with me that it is far better to make provision now for such an eventuality in case it does arise rather than be left in the position of having to attempt to do so after that event. The amendment which I am proposing should shortly be in circulation to Members who may be interested to note that it follows very closely section 6 of the Defence (Amendment) (No. 2) Act, 1960.

In 1960, the then Taoiseach, the late Seán Lemass, moved the Second Stage of the Defence Bill enabling Army contingents to be sent on UN missions abroad. In his speech on that occasion, he acknowledged that our adherence to the UN Charter imposed substantial obligations on this country. He also referred to Article 29 of our Constitution, Bunreacht na hÉireann, which solemnly affirms Ireland's "devotion to the ideal of peace and friendly co-operation amongst nations, founded on international justice and morality". As Seán Lemass saw it, it was not only our moral duty but also in our national interest to support the United Nations to act in any situation in any part of the world that might endanger peace and to be prepared, where necessary, to contribute from our resources to the fulfilment of the UN's responsibilities in such event.

I would submit that the three decades which have elapsed since the Dáil first agreed to national participation in UN peacekeeping missions have not changed the validity of our commitment to such activity. They have, if anything, endorsed it. It is for this reason that I have no hesitation in commending this Bill to the House.

Mr. S. Barrett

This country has every reason to be extremely proud of the role we have played in the peacekeeping efforts of the United Nations. We have been doing so for many years and we can be proud of the members of the Defence Forces who have served abroad on UN duty. Unfortunately some of them have made the ultimate sacrifice through the loss of their lives. We hope sincerely that this will not happen to any members of the Defence Forces in the future or to any members of the Garda Síochána who will take up this peacekeeping role. Fine Gael have always supported our involvement in the peacekeeping role of the United Nations and will continue to do so. I am quite certain that the Garda Síochána when they take up duty will not only make us proud of their efforts but will do much good for the Garda Force. I am confident of their ability to do their duty.

There is a difficulty in that the numbers of gardaí have dramatically reduced during the past two years. We now have a police force of about 10,600, compared to about 11,400 two years ago. That represents a drop of about 800 in membership of the Garda Síochána. Nobody in his right mind would suggest that this reduction has been justified by a reduction in the level of crime. The contrary is the case. The level of crime has increased dramatically during the past 12 months and the type of crime we are dealing with makes our situation very serious. Border security problems must be faced on a daily basis and we must also deal with arms shipments for use by the IRA. All these things have placed a tremendous burden on the Garda Síochána.

While I and my party would certainly support any effort to secure a peaceful transition to independence in Namibia, we must be conscious of our responsibilities at home. We can do both, if the will is there. This Bill deals not solely with Namibia but empowers the Government to dispatch members of the Garda Síochána to any part of the world on UN duty in the future. It is wise to give the Government this general power. We are talking about a specific instance here but the Government will be empowered by this Bill to meet future requests by the UN.

In this instance 35 personnel are to be sent abroad. I want an assurance from the Minister that if members of the Garda Síochána are asked to serve abroad the already depleted numbers of gardaí will not be further depleted. There is no reason not to give such an assurance because the UN will pay for the cost of the gardaí serving abroad. Therefore, there will be no additional cost to the Exchequer in increasing strength here to compensate. Perhaps the Minister will give that assurance when replying. If not, I have an amendment prepared which will be calculated on Committee Stage and I will seek the support of other parties.

None of us is satisfied that the strength of the Garda Síochána is sufficient to meet the problems they are facing on a daily basis. In England and Wales the strength of the police force has increased since 1979 by over 13,000 and now stands at 124,737, divided among 36 forces. They have recognised the need for sufficient numbers of police to safeguard democracy and the ordinary individual. We have the growing problem of drugs and unemployment. These things have led to an increase in the level of crime and violence and there is no sign that it will decrease in the foreseeable future.

On 31 December 1987 the strength of our police force was 11,109, while on the same date in 1988 the figure was 10,748 and I am told that the number has been further reduced since then. In 1986 there were approximately 11,500 members of the Garda Síochána. As I have said, there has been a reduction of approximately 800 at a time when crime is on the increase.

Some months ago the Minister for Justice conducted a marvellous PR exercise when he announced his intention to recruit an extra 1,000 members of the Garda Síochána. This was designed to show Fianna Fáil's great concern for law and order. Good PR work was done by P.J. Mara, but we discovered that it was all a con job. A thousand new recruits were to be taken on, but over a three-year period. Letters were sent out to the thousands of applicants who sought to join the Garda Síochána telling them that they had to sit an examination. I am sure every Member of this House has met individuals who have since got letters telling them they were successful in the examination and that they would be called for an interview in 1991. One of the conditions is that an applicant must be under 26 years of age. What happens to those who are over the age limit in two years? They will be disqualified even from an interview. At a time when the numbers in the Garda Síochána have reduced dramatically, this is nothing short of a scandal. We should have been honest and said that we could only afford to take on 300 recruits this year and that we would call a certain number for interview. People should not be left wondering what they should do before they are called for interview in 1991.

Only 300 recruits are being taken on in 1989 and the natural wastage will far exceed that. The numbers are going down and we are now being asked to give the Government approval to despatch members of the Garda Síochána on UN duty. As I said, I have no objections to that as we have a moral obligation to play our part in any peacekeeping role in which the UN are involved. As a country that suffered for a long time prior to our Independence we know its value. We should be very proud of the fact that Ireland has been asked to play a part which is as a result of the record of those who served in the past. I am quite certain that the chief superintendents, inspectors, sergeants and the ordinary members will do us proud in Namibia.

However, in addition to playing a peacekeeping role, we also have a responsibility to see that the people in this country retain their freedom. The Government must face up to their responsibility in terms of dealing with the IRA who are not the slightest bit interested in Ireland retaining its democratic freedom. These gentlemen want to destroy everything for which we fought and we cannot control them without having adequate, trained members of the Garda Síochána seeking these people and the arms which they import to destroy democracy.

Perhaps social conditions have contributed to crime but we cannot expect the Garda Síochána to deal with it and to overcome the difficulties when every year their strength is reduced on a daily basis. At the same time the Government have not brought forward any new ideas in relation to restructuring or reforming the courts where gardaí are tied up daily waiting for a road traffic offence to be heard, which may be adjourned, with the result that the gardaí in question may have to come back many times.

Members of the Garda Síochána are doing clerical work that could be done by civilians. I know members of the Garda Síochána are needed for certain types of clerical work for security reasons, that is understandable but, by and large, there has been no reform in that area. There has also been no reform in the area of road traffic offences. There should be on the spot fines instead of involving gardaí in District Courts waiting for traffic offences to be heard.

An Ceann Comhairle

I hesitate to interrupt the Deputy but he and the House will agree that I have given a lot of latitude in dealing with this confined and limited Bill. I am concerned that the debate may become too wide ranging. Detail should be dealt with on Committee Stage and wide ranging references should be left to the debate on the Estimate for the Minister's Department or some other appropriate occasion. Will the Deputy please confine his remarks to this Bill? To go beyond the latitude the Chair has given would make a mockery of the debate on this measure.

Mr. S. Barrett

I respect your ruling of course but you will appreciate that the Dáil is being asked to give power to the Government to despatch members of the Garda Síochána to serve on UN duties whenever they are called on. This Bill does not just deal with Namibia. This could involve the Garda Síochána in all kinds of work abroad in future. The Dáil, before it makes such a decision, is entitled to get an assurance from the Minister in relation to ways and means of reducing crime and supporting the Garda Síochána in their efforts to overcome those difficulties. If we are to make the decision which the Bill is asking us to do, we must be satisfied that other things are in place so that the loss of these men will not further impose strain on an already stretched police force and ultimately cause problems at home. I strayed a little from the Bill but I hope you appreciate there was a purpose behind my argument.

There should be reorganisation of our courts, laws and management structures in the Garda Síochána. We should promote the juvenile liaison scheme to prevent crime in the future. If we did that perhaps the Minister could then justify reducing the strength of the Garda Síochána by 800 in a period of two years. He cannot justify that because there have been cuts in the juvenile liaison scheme, there is a lack of support for the neighbourhood watch scheme and there has been no massive expansion in the concept of community policing, which I totally support, the old style community policeman working daily in settled or developing communities. I want an assurance that these things will happen before agreeing to the Bill.

My party and I want to support this Bill and we have a moral obligation to play our part in peacekeeping with the United Nations, but the Minister must give us an assurance that we will not suffer the consequences at home, particularly as the United Nations will pick up the tab for the cost of sending men abroad. There will be no net cost to the Exchequer if the Minister agrees to what I am asking. It is important, therefore, to get these assurances from the Minister to counteract the fears among the community in regard to the level of crime at present.

I am sure you, a Cheann Comhairle, throughout your life as a respected public representative, and other Members of the House, particularly those who act as spokespersons for their party, will confirm that we get letters and telephone calls daily from communities expressing fear about what is happening on our streets. A man telephoned my office the other day and I have a full report of the conversation he had with my secretary. He said that people cannot walk down Westmoreland Street without being challenged for money. If they refuse to give it they are assaulted and this on the main street of our capital city. That is only one of the many phone calls I get. Others get on to me to complain that their wives, aunts, sisters or cousins cannot go out without being mugged, attacked or having their handbags snatched. In my own constituency recently two people going home after a disco were stabbed, one of whom died as a result.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry to have to interrupt the Deputy again but apart from appealing to Members not to stray too far from the subject matter of the Bill I must reiterate——

Mr. S. Barrett

I am just finishing.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must advise the House that a strict time limit applies in respect of the procedures involved. Committee Stage must be disposed of by 12.30 p.m. and all subsequent Stages by 1.30 p.m. Therefore, time is of the essence.

Mr. S. Barrett

I am conscious of the fact that my colleagues also wish to speak. Anything else I have to say will have to wait for another day but we will keep on about this matter at Question Time, during debates on the Estimates and on any other occasion we have the opportunity until we get an assurance from the Government that it will be dealt with. When in opposition Fianna Fáil told us continually of what they would do in Government. They insisted on the setting up of a special committee of this House, the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism and delayed the setting up of other committees unless such a committee was established. However, when they got into Government they refused point blank to reestablish the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism because they knew that that committee would expose the sort of things that they said they would do when in opposition but which they will not now do when in Government. We in the Opposition have every right to criticise those who make commitments and promises when in Opposition but who do not fulfil those promises when in Government.

It is simply not acceptable that we be asked to pass legislation involving 35 members of the Garda Síochána — the issue, as I said, is much broader in that in the future the Government would have the power to dispatch personnel to take up UN duty — without getting an assurance from the Minister that there will be no further reductions in the strength of the Garda Síochána. The force is already undermanned.

Miss Colley

This is a Bill which should be supported in principle. Our history in terms of UN peacekeeping duties is extremely honourable. As the Minister pointed out, Seán Lemass in introducing the first Bill to allow members of the Defence Forces to take up UN peace-keeping duties some 25 to 30 years ago set a precedent which has been followed through throughout the years. Many members of our Defence Forces have served with great honour with a number of peace-keeping forces around the world under the banner of the UN. In fact some members of the Defence Forces have lost their lives which is a source of great sadness for us. We are also resigned to the fact that some sacrifices are necessary and we appreciate the enormous sacrifice that has been made by those personnel and their families on our behalf and in the name of peace and the defence of freedom. Our own history makes us aware that an impartial police force is something to be valued. Over the years our own police force, the Garda Síochána, have displayed remarkable impartiality despite the great difficulties they have encountered. Therefore, we are very well placed to provide the kind of personnel the United Nations need and who will represent this country in a fine manner in Namibia and other areas in the future, presumably.

The history of Namibia is a very difficult one but I am happy to see that an end may be in sight to their difficulties. If Ireland can help in that process we should do all in our power to make it possible. As I said, the Garda Síochána have over the years worked in support of the civil power and have worked with every Government who have come into power. Given the number of countries that have faced difficulties with their defence forces and police forces we can look upon ourselves as being unusual in that we have not experienced any such problems despite the violent beginning of this State. It is therefore unfair that the Garda Síochána to date have been shackled by the heavy hand of the Department of Justice, that no move has been made in recent years to remove this shackle and to allow them to grow into a modern police force.

At this time we are being asked to approve the sending of 35 members of the Garda Síochána of various rank to Namibia to take up duty with the United Nations force. As I said, in general I believe that that is a good thing, not just because it will give members of the Garda Síochána an opportunity to participate in such a force but also because it will help to expose members of the Garda Síochána to other policing methods and approaches. This is something that should take place constantly. A feature of modern police forces is that personnel are exchanged on a very regular basis in a planned way so as to expose them to new methods of policing. That would be an added advantage of taking part in this police force.

I have grave reservations about reducing the numbers currently serving in the Garda Síochána. I would re-echo what Deputy Barrett has said and raise a number of queries. We have a much depleted force and there is no evidence to suggest that the Government have any intention of increasing the numbers or restructuring the force so that those currently serving in the force would be able to provide the kind of service that this country so badly needs. During the past nine to ten years there has been an enormous upsurge in crime, the number of robberies has doubled and there has been an alarming increase in the number of crimes with violence. The reduction in the rate of detection is quite startling as is the reduction in the rate of recovery of stolen property. All of this points directly to an inability on the part of the Garda Síochána to cope with modern criminals. When will the Government — previous Governments also failed in this area — face up to the fact that the major problem facing the Garda Síochána, apart from dealing with the criminal on the street, is the structure under which they must operate? When are the Government going to mature politically and realise that the Garda Síochána are a loyal police force and can be entrusted with their own management and structure? I appeal to the Minister to have immediate regard to this fact.

Even though the 35 members of the Garda Síochána whom we will send to Namibia to take up duty with the United Nations peacekeeping force will be as well equipped as possible and as well trained as possible this training will not be to the standard that other modern democracies can provide. I believe we would be letting ourselves down if we were to allow this to continue.

It is now ten years, according to this Bill, which cites the various Garda Síochána Acts, since we had any legislation on the Garda Síochána; I am discounting the Garda Síochána Complaints Board because that is somewhat extraneous. There has been no legislation of note. That is not to say there has been a feeling of satisfaction among the gardaí about their structures and the management of that force. We have a militaristic style of police force which is an anachronism in modern days. We have trained members of the Garda Síochána to use their discretion; therefore, we must allow them to use it and stop throwing the rule book at them when they do so. To do that we must change the structures. We must regionalise the Garda Síochána and allow the kind of policing to take effect on the ground that is necessary, rather than trying to impose the kind of policing necessary in the inner city of Dublin on the south-west coast of Kerry. It simply is not effective. It stunts the development of proper policing. We are doing ourselves a disservice by not allowing the many thousands of willing and able gardaí to develop in that force when they have asked for it, they want it. The Progressive Democrats are on record as spelling out a plan by which it could be done, but there is absolutely no evidence that this Government or this Minister are even remotely interested in bringing our police force up to a required modern standard.

One aspect of the deployment of the 35 gardaí, or more in future, on UN duties is the fact that we have an imbalance as between garda deployment and crime rates. I have said in this House, and I think it is worth saying again because it demonstrates this imbalance, that approximately 57 per cent of crime occurs in the greater Dublin area and a far lesser number of gardaí, some 35 per cent, are deployed in Dublin. I would be worried that there would be an increase of this imbalance if, for instance, we send the kind of key personnel we need in Dublin to Namibia or some other far-off place if they offer to go and that offer is accepted by the Garda Commissioner. In my constituency in Rathfarnham the station has lost five personnel in the past year and has had one further transfer recently and none of those has been replaced.

Mr. Farrelly

You are lucky. You would want to go down to Meath.

Miss Colley

This station is dealing with 65,000 people and there is an enormous imbalance between the numbers dealing with that——

Mr. Taylor

They are law-abiding citizens around there.

Miss Colley

Unfortunately, not as law-abiding as one would wish. The imbalance in Dublin is very marked and it would be unfortunate if this Bill added to that imbalance. I am looking at the personnel involved: one chief superintendent, two superintendents, two inspectors, seven sergeants and 23 gardaí. Already we know there are a number of vacancies in the superintendent, inspector and sergeant ranks. What is the Minister proposing to do when he sends further personnel of those ranks away? Is he proposing to make promotions within the Garda so that the effects of this depletion are not felt? If he is he should have said so in his opening speech. I do not understand why he did not address himself to the consequences within the Garda Síochána of these changes and, as Deputy Barrett said, the possibility of further changes in the future. I am extremely supportive of our taking part in United Nations peace-keeping forces, but I want to know the consequences at home on the ground. It is the Minister's responsibility to tell us and it is my responsibility as spokesperson for the Progressive Democrats to point it out if he does not tell us. If we have a number of these people of the various ranks I have mentioned offering to go and if they are accepted, what is the Minister going to do in turn for the stations that are going to find they are without those personnel?

The Minister has not addressed himself to the type of personnel who are going to be sent away. I imagine there is a possibility that specialised personnel will be required for such a peacekeeping force. Is that the case? If so, can we afford to lose particularly highly trained, specialised gardaí for a given period? If we can, does it mean the Minister intends to train other personnel to take their place? We have had in Dublin in the past year the disbandment of a number of task forces and the murder squad and there is now almost no legal section within the Garda. We should be very vigilant about not losing out on the really important and essential personnel in our Garda who are not easily replaced.

I would like to refer to the morale in the Garda force at the moment.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Colley will again have regard to remarks I made earlier——

Miss Colley

I will.

An Ceann Comhairle

——and the constraints imposed upon us in dealing with this measure which is a very limited one. I adverted to the time factor involved. I know the Deputy will co-operate with me in sticking as closely as she can to the subject matter of this Bill and not stray too far from that. Indeed, in that regard I have given the Deputy a great deal of latitude, as I think she will realise.

Miss Colley

I am referring particularly to the Bill in my contribution. I do not intend to be that much longer, but I feel I should make certain points I wish the Minister to reply to. I think it is necessary to point to the low morale within the Garda force at the moment. We have over a number of years had difficulties in promotions, recruitment, a lack of numbers and huge pressures on members of the Garda Síochána. I fear that when the Commissioner asks for volunteers for this UN force we are going to be embarrassed at the rush to join and the reason will be that the morale of gardaí on the beat or in their stations is so low that they will say, "Here is a chance to do something where I will get job satisfaction. It will be interesting and I will be regarded as being important and essential which is certainly not the case at present in Ireland." The Minister has only himself to blame because he has continued over the past two years to run down the Garda Síochána with no idea of where he is going on it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has tolerated a passing reference to such matters but the Deputy is clearly going into a great deal of detail. It is not in order.

Miss Colley

I warn the Minister he should be aware that there is already great interest in this matter within the Garda Síochána and I believe there will be a great rush to take part in this. He should be aware of the reasons behind it. I am in favour of the Bill but I should like to ask the Minister to tell the House, and the public, from what stations the personnel will be drawn. He should tell us if specialised personnel will be involved and if it is proposed to replace them. I do not think we should tolerate crucial ranks in the Garda being further depleted by our participation in this force thereby putting law abiding citizens more at risk.

Mr. Taylor

The Labour Party are supporting this measure in recognition of the contribution that Ireland has made, and must continue to make, on the international peacekeeping scene. Our Defence Forces have a proud record serving with United Nations Interim Forces in Lebanon and other countries and I have no doubt that that tradition will be continued by our gardaí who will be serving abroad after the Bill has been passed by the Oireachtas.

We are a small and neutral country but we have an important role to play on the international scene. We do not have any tie with any of the major political blocs and our neutrality is important to us. It is important that we should take great care in exercising that neutrality particularly when our soldiers and gardaí are involved with international peacekeeping forces. I am referring to the gardaí who will be going to Namibia and to the soldiers serving in Lebanon. It is true to say that most of the time our Ministers observe our sense of neutrality to protect Irish people who serve abroad but, occassionally, there are lapses and one-sided statements are made by them.

Deputies Barrett and Colley asked the effect the creation of this peacekeeping force will have on Garda numbers and what will be done to replace the experienced members. I agree with them that Garda numbers are too low but I do not intend to go into that topic in detail. However, it is no harm to point out that the Garda superintendent in my constituency, which covers Tallaght, informed me that the number under his control is well below what he reasonably requires to police the area. He told me that he had sent a request to the Garda Commissioner for 20 additional gardaí for the Tallaght station but this was not acceded to. In fact, the number of personnel had dropped. It is important that we should send members of the force abroad on peacekeeping duties but it is equally important that we make resources available to maintain staffing levels.

Deputy Barrett made the point that this peacekeeping force would not cost us anything, that the expenses and salaries involved in sending gardaí to Namibia would be met by the UN. He said that the UN will pay, that they will pick up the tab. However, the Minister, in the course of his speech, said that the financial arrangements are likely to be similar to those for UNIFIL, the United Nations Interim Force in the Lebanon. That is exactly what I am afraid of because our experience of the financial arrangements for UNIFIL was not a happy one.

I was informed by the Minister for Defence some months ago, in response to a parliamentary question, that approximately £15 million was owed to us by the UN for arrears of payments to our soldiers serving with UNIFIL over many years. The Minister told me that the figure owed to us by the UN increases year on year. The primary reason for that is that many of the countries who are ardent and vociferous participants in UN debates unfortunately fail to meet their responsibility of paying their contributions to the UN. The result is that Ireland, and other contributors to the peacekeeping force, find that the financial arrangements are not met. Substantial sums of money are owed to those countries.

I am concerned that the financial arrangements are likely to be similar to those for UNIFIL. I had hoped that they would be different and that the expenses and salaries paid to those involved in this operation will be paid promptly to the State so that the Minister, and the Government, can ensure that replacements will be found for those serving with the force. I hope the Garda strength is not depleted further as a result of our generous contribution to the force in Namibia.

We should not underestimate the fact that our Garda volunteers, like our soldiers serving with the UN, will be exposed to danger. The political climate in Namibia has improved and we are all pleased about that. To what extent that may have been due to the negotiations carried out by the UN or the participation by Cuba is another matter but progress has been made and we can look forward with confidence to the independence of that country. However, the political climate will continue to be unsettled for some time and our gardaí will be put at risk. They deserve our full support and we must ensure that they are given all the technical back up and equipment they need. Notwithstanding Deputy Barrett's comments, Namibia will prove to be a more dangerous place to work than patrolling Westmoreland Street.

We should express our appreciation to the gardaí who have volunteered. I should like to know if it is the intention to include banghardaí in the force. That should be given favourable consideration because banghardaí have a valuable role to play in such groups. They should be included in the contingent. A breakdown of the ranks of those it is proposed to send is as follows: one chief superintendent, two superintendents, two inspectors, seven sergeants and 23 gardaí. I am no expert on proportionality but it occurred to me that if there is an error it is slightly on the side of over-emphasis on Chiefs rather than on Indians. According to my calculations there will be 12 Chiefs and 23 Indians——

Mr. Collins

There is a reason for that.

Mr. Taylor

——which seems slightly out of proportion. Perhaps I am wrong about that. The Minister may want to make some comment on it.

I am indeed pleased that this Bill is before the House. It is good to see that we will be continuing the very fine traditions we have built up over the years in international participation, co-operation and peacekeeping where needed. I do hope that the Minister will ensure that we are promptly recompensed by the United Nations so that such funds can be used for no other purpose than the maintenance of our Garda Force in those areas in need of them.

Mr. McCartan

I should like to indicate my party's support of and welcome for this Bill, particularly the honour reflected on this country and the Garda Síochána on being invited to Namibia. It is a particularly pleasing feature that while 35 members of the Garda Force will be sent to Namibia initially, over 400 others indicated a willingness to participate. That is an incredible credit to the force as a whole.

The Minister's remarks rang a slightly sombre note when referring to the fact that there would be an amendment tabled later, in that the task will be a dangerous, onerous one. There is the wrongly held belief that our Defence Forces when going on duty to, say, the Lebanon are going on holiday in the sun. That is not the case. It is a difficult, onerous task, undertaken after long consideration only by those who volunteer.

Going to Namibia, it must be acknowledged, will be going into a situation of intense political and military turmoil. For many years past, in collaboration with South Africa, the Americans have been funding the South African equivalent of the Contras in Namibia in an attempt to do down the popular movement of the South West African People's Organisation, the legitimate representatives of the Namibian people. They will still be there when the members of the Garda arrive, South African mercenaries and troops, working in disguise, intent in continuing some control and interest in Namibia and, more particularly, directing their attentions — as they have done over the past decade — on Angola in support of UNITA there. They will continue to be opeating there, ruthless trained killers backed by the South African and American Governments. It must be remembered that there were until very recently over 100,000 South African troops in Namibia using it as a launching pad into Southern Angola.

It will be clearly seen that the task of the members of the Garda Síochána will not be a straightforward one. The members who have indicated in such great numbers their interest in and commitment to peacekeeping in Namibia, in a process leading to democracy there, must be congratulated. In those circumstances it constitutes a small gesture for us to release 35 members to go there. It does not do this House any credit to introduce reservations or to trade counters to that commitment. It is my belief that the remaining members of the force here, out of the almost 11,000 in total, will easily recoup the loss of the 35 who will depart.

Neither do I think their departure will have any great impact on the capacity of the Garda to continue to effectively combat crime here. In this respect I might make two small points as a Deputy representing the north side of this city. I represent a constituency in which late night bus services have had to be curtailed because of lawlessness, vandalism and attacks on drivers. My constituents, perhaps more than others in this city, could well do with more Garda attention. In combating crime, increasing the numbers of Garda on the ground is not sufficient in itself; that will not eliminate the problem altogether.

The other suggestion that must be refuted is the one that there has been some enormous rise in crime in recent times. That is not the case. In fact it is remarkable the extent to which crime has been contained in this State given the extent of unemployment and poverty that obtains. Given those circumstances the Garda are doing a remarkable job. Neither do I accept the suggestion that morale is low within the force, as has been contended. Certainly conditions have not been as good recently because of the curtailment on overtime and the like. My experience from contacts I have had with Garda on the ground in my area — where there are some fine community/Garda projects in train — has been one of members who are doing the task allotted to them with the commitment expected of them. Of course there is room for improvement but this is not the time to introduce such bargaining counters.

This House should be united in recognising the honour bestowed on the country and the Garda Síochána, in particular, in having been invited into Namibia. We should feel honoured that we, as a country because of our neutrality and peace-keeping traditions, continue to be relied on, by international peacekeeping forces abroad in the maintenance of peace and the protection of democracy.

In the course of his remarks the Minister went into the history behind the current initiatives and what has emanated therefrom. Unfortunately in this respect there were a few omissions which I should like to rectify. It would be wrong of this House, in the course of any debate, particularly one that included a reference to the history of Namibia, not to mention the late Seán MacBride, the first Commissioner appointed by the United Nations in 1974——

Mr. Collins

I accept that.

Mr. McCartan

——through whose involvement we, as an international community, made huge progress in the international demand for democracy and the recognition of SWAPO in Namibia. We should recall that it was during that period he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his work and efforts.

The Minister has suggested that the current accord achieved in respect of Namibia, based on talks held in Geneva, followed an American initiative. I want to make it quite clear that the role of America in regard to Namibia has been one of imperial disgrace. In collusion with South Africa America has poured millions of dollars into supporting the Contras of Namibia, into the war effort there, maintaining an offensive against SWAPO in Namibia and the democratically elected Government of Angola.

One might well pose the question: what happened recently to bring about this historic peace settlement? We must remember that the United Nations have attempted — through every means available to them over the last three decades — to achieve what has now been wraught there. The small nation responsible for what has now happened in Namibia is Cuba. I will explain briefly why that has been the case. In or about June-July last South Africa launched a major offensive from Namibia into Angola. They massed troops of 15,000 near the town of Cuito Cuanavale where they were confronted by 30,000 Cuban troops in Angola. At the same time Cuba sent over another 20,000 troops who progressed in a calculated movement behind the South African troops, surrounding them completely, forcing them to total surrender. There was very little heard of the event and very little bloodshed. What happened then was that the South African Government immediately sought to negotiate a surrender and peaceful retreat from Cuito Cuanavale. One of the conditions imposed by the Angolan and Cuban negotiators was that Namibia be given independence and left in peace. This constituted one of the first major defeats, with hardly any bloodshed, imposed on South African troops in Namibia and, illegally, in Angola. It was one of the conditions of the accord that there would be no major international debate or trumpet blowing about it. The Cubans and the Angolans respected that, and for that reason we have heard very little of that major event. It was directly as a condition of surrender on that occasion that the South Africans, for the first time in recent times, agreed to sit down and conclude an accord. In the time they have been in Angola, the Cubans have contributed significantly to achieving democracy or at least a solution that will lead to democracy in Namibia. It is in that context that our Garda are asked to contribute.

We have to be completely supportive of this initiative. I would reiterate some of the points Deputy Taylor has made in regard to financial arrangements. We have to recognise that when the UN pay for our troops and gardaí in Namibia there will then be the resource available for further recruitment. That is something I would ask the Minister to consider. If this commitment must continue over a lengthy period and involve more members going abroad, the Minister should consider increasing recruitment and training of new members to replace those who go away.

It is a great moment in the history of Namibia that we have come to the stage where the international community is mustering what will be the largest ever peacekeeping force of troops and policemen under the flag of the UN. The decades of economic exploitation, the disregard for and abuse of human rights in Namibia, forced upon them by the South Africans, will come to an end. As was mentioned by the Minister, once resolved it will represent one of the last major colonial problems on the table of affairs at the United Nations. What South Africa has done in Namibia since they took on the so-called protectorate on behalf of Great Britain is condemnable and outrageous. If our Garda can in any way contribute to a quick solution of the problems of transition to democracy in South Africa and in Namibia we should welcome that contribution wholeheartedly and give it every support. I have no doubt that our members going there will do us proud.

Miss Flaherty

I will not keep the Minister long. I am anxious to speak on this matter in the context of my own responsibility for development co-operation. I share the reservations expressed by our spokesperson in relation to the inadequate resourcing of the Garda Síochána and its importance in the communities we all represent.

Here today it is important to welcome the principle of this Bill. It marks a new departure in international co-operation. We are long familiar with the picture of our soldiers going out to the UN. It is a great new departure to have our police force going to perform a peacetime role in the nursing of an emergent, democratic, independent State. It is a great new departure and I hope it is police forces that will be required in many of the trouble spots of the world in the coming decades.

In relation to local resources I share the view that the Garda Síochána numbers are inadequate. Anybody who represents large urban constituencies with a lot of social problems knows how great the need is for more community policing and that should be provided within the context of management of our own resources. The Irish people have overwhelmingly shown their willingness, even where our own resources are short to share with others. They have proved this by putting their hands in their pockets and indicating in opinion poll after opinion poll that we should share our limited State resources in generous fashion with the needy of the world, with the poorest of the poor. The continent of Africa is one of the areas of greatest need. I welcome and support this initiative to commit resources there.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Collins)

I very much appreciate the support of the members of all parties for this measure. In matters such as this, a degree of public political unanimity is very important.

I also very much welcome the generous tributes paid to the Garda Síochána in the difficult work they carry out in the Ireland of today. However, it would be wrong of me to let references to low Garda morale go unrefuted. I have had contact with the management and members of the Force over a longer period than have most Members of the House, and I am absolutely satisfied that Garda morale is more than good. The Garda Síochána enjoy the support of the community and deserve all the support the Government can give them. Of course, the individual garda may have a personal crib, like any other citizen, but the allegation of overall poor morale made by Deputy Colley is totally untrue.

Miss Colley

I stick with it, Minister.

Mr. Collins

Having been at Garda conferences in the recent past I am satisfied from what I have heard and witnessed that what I say truly reflects the situation as it is. There is no foundation whatsoever for what Deputy Colley is suggesting. I reckon she is totally out of touch with what is going on.

Deputy McCartan correctly reminded us of the great role played in Namibia by the late Seán MacBride. There has been worldwide recognition of his efforts in the interests of peace both nationally and internationally.

Deputy Taylor was very generous in his support of what we are trying to do. He had a number of questions which I will try to deal with. First, he adverted to the question of the likely make up of the Garda contingent and suggested a possible imbalance between gardaí and more senior ranks. The constitution of the Garda contingent takes account of the duties to which the members of the contingent will be assigned, and it is in line with the strength requested by the United Nations from this country. A number of the members of the more senior Garda ranks will be assigned to duties at the United Nations headquarters in Namibia and I am sure Deputy Colley would agree that this experience can only be of benefit to these members in their future assignments in the Garda Síochána and that the more gardaí in the senior ranks who receive such experience the greater will be the gains to the Garda Síochána in the long term. During the course of the debate mention was made of this fact and the importance of it but Deputy Colley, judging from what I heard her say, is probably not aware that there are a lot of connections between our Garda Force and other police forces and that there is a lot of interchange of personnel at all levels. It is not something new. It is an experience that we all learn from and something that we encourage on every possible occasion. The Deputy should remember that only last year four senior chief superintendents did a long session with the Canadian Royal Mounted Police.

Miss Colley

That is unusual.

Mr. Collins

It is not unusual.

Miss Colley

It has been unusual.

Mr. Collins

It is not unusual at all. The Deputy is totally out of touch with the position if she says that is unusual. That is not true.

Miss Colley

On a planned educational basis.

Mr. Collins

Please, let me continue. It is done in a planned way. It is not something new and it is not something that has been ignored in the past.

The gardaí who are going to Namibia will be very thoroughly briefed beforehand. I understand that a course is ready for them to take part in before they go. On arrival in Namibia individual briefings will be given by the United Nations about the districts to which members will be assigned. The briefing in this country before they go will cover medical aspects, political and historical factors and the cultural characteristics of the people of Namibia. The Department of Foreign Affairs will give every help and assistance to the Garda Commissioner in ensuring that, from their point of view, our people going out there will be very well briefed.

The total force working for the United Nations will be in the region of 500. For the information of the House, I understand as of today, that Holland will have 30 members of their police force working there, Jamaica, 30; Ghana, 100; Barbados, 30; Sweden, 50; Fiji, 100; Ireland, 35 and Austria, 50 — a total of 425. I understand the remaining 75 will be drawn from countries such as New Zealand, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Egypt and Senegal. That is as much information as I have on that issue.

Deputy McCartan was correct when he said that a good number of gardaí are applying for work in Namibia. They are applying for good and proper reasons, as he strongly stressed, and not for the reasons suggested by Deputy Colley——

Miss Colley

I did not impute anything.

Mr. Collins

——that it is purely as a result of the low morale which she said exists and which we know is not there.

Miss Colley

I said it was a contributing factor.

Mr. Collins

That is not true. The Deputy is very far off the mark. There were a little over 500 gardaí volunteers; there were 25 banghardaí volunteers, about 52 sergeants, two inspectors, two superintendents and one chief superintendent.

Mr. Taylor

Will there be a role for the banghardaí?

Mr. Collins

This matter was raised by Deputy Taylor and I understand the Commissioner is giving it consideration. It is entirely his decision bearing in mind the role which they have to play in that country. As of now I cannot say.

Mr. Taylor

There should be some role for the banghardaí.

Mr. Collins

I can understand that. A number of Deputies asked whether or not the gardaí being sent overseas will be replaced. In discussing this aspect it should first be acknowledged that it is an honour to the Garda Síochána and to the country as a whole that we have been asked to contribute to the international police contingent who will be involved in the transition of Namibia to an independent state. As I have said, our 35 member contribution to this force will amount to only about one-third of 1 per cent of the total strength of the Garda Síochána. I am satisfied that the advantages to be gained from participation in this historic mission outweigh the loss to this country of the services of these members during their absence in Namibia.

Turning to the issue of replacements per se, I can inform the House that the Government have decided that vacancies in the promotional ranks involved in the Namibia contingent — 12 posts — will be filled here straight away. The vacant posts at garda rank, which is the basic recruitment rank in the force, will be filled by gardaí returning from career breaks. Redeployment is also necessary within the Force. As a result of the dispatch of a Garda contingent to Namibia overall numbers in the force available for duty at home will decline even though there will be a special round of promotions in the ranks of sergeant and chief superintendent to which I have just referred. However, having consulted the Garda Commissioner I have today arranged for an increase in Garda recruitment this year from a planned figure of 300 to 335. The first batch of these trainees — 85 young men and women — will start their training in Templemore in a little over six weeks time, on 1 April, when their colleagues should be taking up their posts in Namibia.

Mr. S. Barrett

I thank the Minister. It was worth while introducing that little element into the debate.

Mr. Collins

A further 700 trainees approximately will be taken into the training centre during 1990 and 1991. I might add for the information of Members who are concerned about balance or imbalance, as Deputy Colley was, that the selection of members of the Namibia contingent is at an advanced stage and the commissioner has indicated that the members likely to be chosen will be drawn from the geographical spread of Garda divisions throughout the State. Members can be assured that the dispatch of this Garda contingent will not result in any substantial reduction in Garda services in any particular area of the State.

Mention has been made of the kind of allowances that will be paid in respect of the United Nations service by the Garda. One of the reasons for this Bill is to ensure that in future gardaí who volunteer for UN service do not have to break their service with the force in order to do so. The members of the Garda contingent going to Namibia will have a continuing entitlement to their basic pay, rent allowance and other allowances. In addition, there will be a special daily allowance payable to each member of the force at a rate to be determined by the Department of Finance. This allowance will be on the same general lines as the allowance paid to soldiers serving with the UNIFIL forces in Lebanon.

I have been asked to say what is the nature of the role of the police contingent in Namibia. The present police force in Namibia, the South West African Police Force Service, is salaried effectively by South Africa. In the period coming up to the Namibian elections many people who have been actively involved in the longrunning conflict in that country will be returning to their homes and villages. Some of these people will have been, as it were, on the run from the security forces in Namibia in the past. In what must be a time of some tension in Namibia, the United Nations' police force will be deployed in the police stations around the country to monitor the law enforcement work of the local police. If breaches of police discipline of a serious nature occur these will be reported immediately to the United Nations commanders who will intervene at a senior level with the South West African Police Service to bring the abuse or abuses in question to an end. It is felt that an active United Nations police presence in the local stations will be an inhibiting factor in relation to any such problem. It is also anticipated that the police contingent will have a role in relation to ensuring that the election process is not interfered with.

Deputy Taylor raised the question of reimbursement costs by the United Nations. While the precise reimbursement terms have yet to be notified to us, it is likely that payments will be made by the UN at a similar rate and on the same basis as applies in the case of the Irish Army personnel in Lebanon. This would involve reimbursement of some US $1,020 per member per month for extra and extraordinary expenses, full reimbursement of travel costs and provision of free accommodation, meals and medical care for members of the contingent. I understand that for the present United Nations reimbursements at a rate of 60 per cent of amounts due are made monthly in arrears. The balance of 40 per cent is not being paid at present because of financial difficulties in the United Nations caused by arrears of contributions of certain member states. I am not in a position at present to estimate the cost of uniforms and items of equipment which will need to be supplied to the members serving in Namibia. Arrangements for the equipping of the Garda contingent are being made by Garda Headquarters with the co-operation of the Army Quartermasters-General's Branch.

Mention was made of the conditions in Namibia and the deployment of the Garda contingent. I understand that a small number of the Garda contingent will be based at the headquarters in the capital, Windhoek, and that other individual gardaí will be attached to police stations throughout Namibia but mostly in the more populous northern tip of that country. The gardaí are likely to be in the company of other United Nations police force members at most times and a significant number of these are likely to be English speakers or at least have English as a second language. I understand it is anticipated that Fijian, Swedish and Dutch police contingents will be serving there. Parts of Namibia are desert country but the inhabited areas are more temperate in climate, though generally a good deal warmer than Ireland. Namibia is approximately ten times as big as Ireland or somewhat bigger than Germany and France combined. Distances between the UN posts will be considerable and the use of the country's network of airfields will at times be necessary as the UN headquarters in Windhoek keeps in touch with its contingents in the countryside. All parties to the dispute over Namibia have officially welcomed the presence of the United Nations Transition Assistance Group and have undertaken to co-operate with it and its work.

One other matter of interest which I feel I should mention for the information of the House is that the United Nations will look after the medical requirements of members of the UNTAG while in Namibia and in cases of serious illnesses members will be transferred to hospital or will be brought home to Ireland by the United Nations. As part of the selection process, volunteers who are otherwise suitable for Namibian duty will undergo a rigorous medical examination by the Garda Surgeon. The members selected will undergo a course of inoculations to protect them against a number of diseases they could possibly encounter in Namibia, including typhoid, cholera, polio, malaria and yellow fever.

A number of other matters were raised that have no relevance to the Bill and I do not propose to chase down the different cul-de-sacs in any shape or form. There were a number of misrepresentations made by my good friend Deputy Barrett. He totally misrepresented the position on recruitment. Recruitment is taking place. I told him that in about six weeks time we will have the first contingent moving into Templemore. There were two main problems as to why we were delayed until 1 April to get the recruitment up and running. One reason was that the state of the building in Templemore, which is to accommodate the recruits, was in a shocking condition. This is known to every Member of the House and many Members here would be familiar with the condition of the building there. It was necessary for the Government to provide many millions to do something about improving the conditions. The conditions experienced there were out of the last century or perhaps the century before. It is a reflection on all of us that it has taken up now to do something about it but at least something has been done. The bulldozers are working there for the past nine to 12 months and are tearing the place asunder. Work has started there on a major programme to give us a first-class Garda training college which the police force, the community and the country deserves.

Mr. S. Barrett

Is it to replace the jobs in the Sugar Company for Deputy O'Kennedy?

Mr. Collins

That sort of a semi-witty political comment on an important matter is unworthy of Deputy Barrett. We are talking about a serious matter.

Mr. Taylor

The Minister said he would not go down the cul-de-sacs.

Mr. Collins

I will not go down the cul-de-sacs. I have just mentioned them. I reject out of hand the statement made by Deputy Barrett. Incidentally, I did not interrupt him when he was making his outrageous comments earlier. Please give me two or three minutes until I push these matters down the cul-de-sac and leave them there because that is probably the best place for them. Deputy Barrett is wrong in suggesting that natural wastage is greater in 1989 than the intake. That is wrong. The facts are there to prove it and I do not have to give them.

Mr. S. Barrett

Give them anyway.

Mr. Collins

There is something else which I cannot let go with anybody because it is totally untrue. Observers of what happened here will know that allegations such as that made by Deputy Barrett today about "unwise decisions of the Government in not facing up to the IRA in seeking out arms" are not correct. With the highest respect for Deputy Barrett, I cannot for the life of me understand——

Mr. S. Barrett

Can the Minister repeat what I said.

Mr. Collins

I have it written down here: "...unwise decisions of the Government in not facing up to the IRA in seeking out arms".

Mr. S. Barrett

That is not what I said.

Mr. Collins

I am only telling the Deputy my perception of what I thought he said. If my perception is what I have said then I feel the Deputy should know——

Mr. S. Barrett

The Minister had better check the record.

Mr. Collins

If it was said and if my perception is a correct perception of what was said by Deputy Barrett——

Mr. S. Barrett

It is not.

Mr. Collins

I am entitled to believe it is. Nothing could be further from the truth——

Mr. S. Barrett

Exactly.

Mr. Collins

——because never was there a greater or more successful effort made than in the past two years in taking guns, ammunition and explosives of all sorts and all quantities from the IRA than we have done in the past two years and our Garda force are to be congratulated for doing that.

Mr. S. Barrett

I said that.

Mr. Collins

There was more ammunition found in the first six months of the year just ended than in the ten years prior to that. For the first six months of the year just ended there were more guns found than in the ten years prior to that. I want to say a sincere word of thanks to the Garda for what they have done in that respect. On reflection, I am sure everyone in the House would agree with me on that.

Mr. S. Barrett

Is that an indication of the extent of the problem?

Mr. Collins

Please, all the Deputies have had their chance to say what they wanted to say.

Mr. S. Barrett

I am not going to allow anyone to misquote me. That is simply the truth of it.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman (Mr. Wyse)

Order, please. Time is limited on this Bill. The Minister to continue without further interruptions.

Mr. Collins

Another area where there has been a misrepresentation of the facts is in relation to crime in general. There is a general recognition and acceptance by the community at large that never has there been such a successful onslaught on organised crime as there has been in the past 12 or 18 months and we are thankful to the Garda for that. These are the things that help Garda morale at all times and which give gardaí the motivation that is essential if they are to be successful in what they are doing. If there are those with complaints who come to people, I think Deputy McCartan put his finger on it when he said Garda morale should not be measured with overtime.

Miss Colley

Absolutely.

Mr. Collins

That is something we should never forget. There are a number of other matters that I should comment on but I do not think it is necessary. I will leave it for another time and another place. I hope I will get the opportunity of having a comprehensive discussion with Members on all matters pertaining to the Garda Síochána. If I do not — and it will not be my fault — I will be glad to send them a copy of my most comprehensive script on these matters which I will be using at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis in the RDS in a few weeks time.

Mr. Taylor

What is the term of duty for the Garda Síochána going out in this session?

Mr. Collins

At a minimum it is for eight months, but we are advised that the term of duty will probably be up to 12 months.

Question put and agreed to.