asked the Minister for Justice the steps his Department are taking to ensure that this country will be in a position to ratify the International Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Prisoners to allow for the transfer of Irish prisoners in jails in other countries to custody in this country; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Transfer of Prisoners.
10.
The practical and legislative measures which may be necessary to enable ratification to proceed are still under consideration in my Department.
The Minister will be aware that in response to a similar question to the Taoiseach in June 1988 we received the same reply — that the matter was being considered. Two years previously I had the same question down to the Minister's predecessor and I was told the same thing. At what point does the Minister expect the consideration of the legislative moves necessary to enable the transfer of prisoners to take place to be concluded?
The issues under consideration are extremely complex and I am not in a position to indicate when this country might be in a position to ratify the convention. There are a number of difficulties which stand in the way of ratification. A major difficulty about ratification in present circumstances is that the potential number of transfers under the convention to our prisons is far higher than the potential number of transfers from our prisons. As things stand at present our existing prison accommodation is under severe pressure to meet present requirements let alone cope with an inflow of prisoners under the terms of the convention, and the likely imbalance in transfers to and from our prisons is substantial.
At present in our prisons there are only about 70 offenders who could apply for transfer out of this jurisdiction under the convention if they wished and it is likely that the number of Irish citizens in prisons in Britain who would be covered by the convention is much greater than this. Obviously it is impossible to predict accurately the number of prisoners in British prisons who would wish to return here and one group advocating ratification of the convention has put forward an estimate of between 40 and 50 in the first year and about ten to 15 each year thereafter. But it is not at all clear on what this estimate is based and there are obvious difficulties in making such an estimate. Even that level of transfers would pose a substantial problem for a prison system which is already very much stretched to cope with the present offender population of about 2,000. Clearly it would be unacceptable if the convention could only be implemented by resorting to an increased level of early releases for the existing prison population which would probably be the only practical option, and I am not prepared to accept that.
I am continuing to examine this matter and one of the options under serious consideration is the possibility of entering declarations at the time of ratification to the effect that in considering any request for the transfer of a prisoner regard would be had to the availability of prison accommodation and also to the closeness of the prisoner's tie with this country. This latter point would be intended to deal with prisoners who, while technically Irish citizens, no longer have any close links with this country, say, through being born to parents residing in a foreign country.
However, there are clearly difficulties with any attempt to define what would be regarded as close ties and in formulating an appropriate declaration. It is the case that under the terms of the convention both Governments and the sentenced person have to agree to each transfer. However, it is doubtful that it would be appropriate to simply ratify the convention simpliciter with the intention of relying on this provision alone to control the number of transfers in the context of the shortage of accommodation. The position in relation to accommodation can be reviewed further in the light of the provision during the coming months of 120 places at the new prison centre at Wheatfield and 50 additional places which have been recently made available at Fort Mitchell.
Aside from the problem of accommodation there are complex legal issues to be teased out in relation to legislation which might be necessary to enable the convention to be ratified. The idea of one jurisdiction administering a sentence imposed in the courts of another jurisdiction where there can be substantial differences in their respective criminal law is a novel one and the nature of possible legislation will only emerge after very detailed consideration of the issues which arise.
These are some of the complex issues that are facing me and were facing my predecessor in relation to the ratification of this convention. We are trying to find ways and means of dealing with those issues and, if we can, we will go ahead with it.
The Minister is aware that quite a number of organisations dealing with prisoners and prisoners' families in the Republic, in Northern Ireland, in Britain and in other European countries, are concerned specifically about the humanitarian needs of the families concerned rather than specifically of the prisoners. I would ask the Minister to bear that in mind——
I certainly will.
——and urge him to speed up consideration of this problem because there are many families who simply cannot get to Britain to visit relatives there.
I will certainly give those points every consideration. I want to assure the Deputy that I and my predecessors must have regard to the families of the prisoners. This aspect is a very important element in the whole affair and will not be forgotten. There are a number of complex issues that we have to come to grips with and we are trying to do that.
Have Britain ratified the convention?
Britain have ratified the convention and are experiencing some difficulties with regard to the implementation of the convention. I understand that in recent times there was a court case in England on the issue of the powers of the Home Secretary to adapt sentences in the case of transferred offenders and the court decided that the Home Secretary's powers to adapt sentences were in fact significantly greater than those he believed he had. So there are a number of legal problems and things are not running as freely as one might think. There are a whole lot of problems to be taken into account.