Deputy B. O'Keeffe was in possession and has 21 minutes remaining.
Private Members' Business. - Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) (Amendment) Bill, 1989: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".
Last evening I had dealt with the role played by the vocational education sector in bringing education within that sphere to its present level of expertise and standing within the educational scene. I had made the point that there were now top quality students attending these colleges. Tribute must be paid to the VECs on this development and, more particularly, to the calibre, excellence and commitment of the teachers appointed over the years.
I said also that the provisions of Deputy Birmingham's Bill meant that the appointment of teachers would be transferred from the VECs to the Local Appointments Commission. I had made the point also that the Local Appointments Commission was established by Arthur Griffith to ensure that the filling of executive posts would be devoid of any political influence. Obviously that was something all of us welcomed. However, a number of difficulties arose vis-à-vis appointments made by the Local Appointments Commission, not least the fact that their operations or interviews were centralised. Seeing Deputy John Bruton across the floor of the House reminds me that he is committed to devolution, whereas Deputy Birmingham, at his side, is committed to centralisation by way of the provisions of this Bill. I had thought that rather strange coming from two brethren of the same fold.
Surely the Deputy is not trying to cause trouble; perish the thought?
I would be all for variety.
That is the wonderful thing about Fine Gael, the united Ireland party.
One of the blemishes on that Local Appointments Commission was their centralised interviews which meant people from all parts of the country could attend for interview. I gave instances, such as town commissions or urban councils where there could be centralised interviews with people being appointed from different parts of the country to a place like, say, Kinsale. It has been my experience that in the town of Kinsale over a 15 month period three town clerks had been appointed, thereby eroding the type of continuity needed by such a local council. I would have certain misgivings in that respect vis-à-vis the provisions of this Bill. I had also mentioned that a period of 15 months had elapsed before a city manager was appointed in Cork. I note that the phrase “due process” was used by the Minister. It has to be said that the “due process” involved in appointments by the Local Appointments Commission signifies delays. We must ask ourselves whether we can, by way of the provisions of this Bill, eliminate delay in the appointment of teachers, which is much to be desired.
I might move on and deal with the type of continuity about which we are concerned. More than any other institution continuity of teachers in a school is vital. We have seen how the concept of continuity has been frustrated on the local government side. We must ensure that such continuity is maintained in the schools-college sector.
I should like to pose a number of questions relating to appointments to regional technical colleges and the appropriateness of introducing the Local Appointments Commission into that framework. In general regional technical colleges seek particular expertise when making appointments. For example, it is quite easy for the Local Appointments Commission to appoint a teacher of mathematics in an ordinary vocational school but I foresee a difficulty in appointing a mathematics lecturer or teacher in the college sector because in that case one will be seeking expertise in given specific subjects. Within the college area, taking mathematics as an example, one could be seeking the appointment of somebody with ability in statistics, mathematics itself and other allied competencies. Take electronics, which involves disciplines as diverse as communications, computers and electronics itself which can present a problem. We must remember that the school authorities, as at present constituted, are well aware of the expertise needed and the gap they want plugged in their system. In turn that begs the question: if people are appointed from outside by way of centralised interviewing, will such applicants be aware of those specific requirements? It would also be extremely difficult for the regional technical colleges to outline job specifications. It is easy to produce a broad job specification but it is a different matter when preparing a job specification for a specific post. The proposer of the Bill should take cognisance of that and I appeal to the Minister to bear it in mind when preparing legislation to cover the colleges.
Local VECs have recognised their limitations and have handed over the specialised function of managing the regional colleges to boards of management, albeit sub-committees of the VECs. Such boards include the principal, the CEO, representatives of the Department of Education and public representatives with a special emphasis on cross-party interaction. The latter is important and I am pleased to report that such cross-party interaction takes place at VEC meetings and among members of the interview boards.
We must accept the integrity of CEOs and principals of the college when interviewing teachers for posts because their sole concern is to appoint the right person for the job. Such boards also include representatives of local chambers of commerce and trade unions, people who have expertise in their own fields. One can justly claim that the boards of management of regional colleges have a discipline expertise rather than a political imbalance. Their recommendations go to the VEC for ratification.
Colleges specialise in different disciplines and because of that I wonder if an outside local appointments body would have the experts available to make valid judgments on all applicants. People sitting on the interview board may have good technical knowledge but I wonder if they would be in a position to make a good judgment on an applicant for a post in a different discipline.
Deputy Quill made an important point when she stated that we must always think of the ethos of the school and the requirements of local areas. Any changes in the selection system should take account of local conditions. I should like to refer to the position in the regional college in Cork and show how that college has progressed from not having any external contracts some years ago to generating a big income this year. It is expected that the college will generate an income of £500,000 by organising short courses to meet the needs of the people in the area, being involved in an EOLAS project, participation in the European star programme and setting up local consultancies.
It would be extraordinary if the chief executive of a company was not involved in making appointments to his or her company. Is it not fair to suggest that any company making an appointment must be meticulous in trying to match the applicant to the job and in trying to ensure that the job suits the applicant? Is it not true to say that a school principal and the CEO of a VEC, in the interest of their own school or college, would be anxious to appoint the best qualified person to a post? It is incumbent on me to draw attention to the fact that under the NCEA scheme courses and course emphasis change rapidly with the result that subject requirements change from year to year.
It is because of that that it is necessary that local expertise be involved in the selection of teachers. Those involved in running our colleges are aware of the gaps that need to be filled on the teaching staff. They have the competence to make appointments expertly and expeditiously. In the past Local Appointments Commissions have been accused of not making appointments expeditiously. Time is of the essence in the appointment of teachers so that they can be available when students are selected for college enrolment in September.
A key member of the staff of a college may depart during the summer vacation and for that reason it is essential that the college authorities have the flexibility to take urgent steps to appoint a suitable replacement. The Minister should keep that in mind when reviewing the provisions in Deputy Birmingham's Bill. The compatibility of the lecturer to the college and the college to the lecturer is important. I do not think Deputy Birmingham's proposal would prove to be a better selection procedure and I wonder if he is serious when he suggests that appointments be made by the Local Appointments Commission.
I read the Minister's speech with great care and noted her comments that the whole impression of the interviewing system was that it works satisfactorily. All Members recognise the interviewing system as being satisfactory. If we involve the Local Appointments Commission there will be a delay in the making of appointments and the Minister is aware of that. A comparison the Minister made between the appointment of people to administrative posts in contrast to teaching appointments suggests that the filling of administrative posts can await due process but the appointment of teachers cannot. The Minister also adverted to the prospect of increased administrative costs if the system is changed. I am glad the Minister intends keeping that in mind.
The Deputy should bring his contribution to a close.
I would like to congratulate the Minister on her speech. She has shown herself willing to encompass all ideas irrespective of what side of the House they come from. That is why she is such a successful Minister for Education, one of the best the country has seen in many a long day. I am also glad that the Minister is questioning whether the shift of authority proposed in the draft Bill is in any way warranted or likely to lead to more equitable and effective selection procedures. I would respectfully suggest to the Minister that she would ensure that management boards and interview boards should have regard to the interaction there is between regional colleges and industry because——
I must now call another speaker.
I am sure there would be no objection on this side of the House if the Deputy were given a little leeway.
I did give the Deputy some warning.
I would suggest that the Minister, in setting up local boards should bear in mind the link we have established between colleges and industry. Most of the colleges have links with industry. In Cork, for instance we have pharmaceutical——
I am sorry, Deputy, but the time is up and I have given adequate warning that you should conclude.
I will conclude——
Time is of the essence in a limited debate of this kind.
I accept that. I would ask the Minister, in bringing in her legislation, to make sure that the expertise that is available in industries in the areas of regional colleges is borne in mind in any new structure of management set up and any selection procedure she would like to bring into being.
Let me begin by saying I listened with great interest to what the previous speakers have said. I note Deputy O'Keeffe's congratulations to his Minister and his probable preparation of the elaborate congratulatory obeisance that will be necessary at the Ard Fheis. I wish him success in that regard.
In relation to the Bill itself I should explain at the outset that my reason for questioning the form of its introduction in a technical sense was in no way a reflection of the Fine Gael spokesperson on Education but rather stemmed from my anxiety to ensure that when legislation on education is being proceeded with, we should have prior consideration of it so that we might be able to develop as adequate a response as education deserves.
I did mention last night that we were precluded by the rules from circulating the legislation.
I appreciate that. On the Bill, I am interested in two issues that I can state positively. Deputy Birmingham in moving the Bill stated "I am simply asking the House tonight that they establish the principle of impartial objective selection in relation to teaching posts". I have no difficulty with this ambition of the Bill. I also received today a statement from the Teachers Union of Ireland expressing their support for the movement of the appointment from vocational education committees to the Local Appointments Commission, and I am certainly sensitive to the points made by the Teachers Union of Ireland which is a reflection of an opinion they have expressed at many different conferences.
The view of my party, therefore, is to be sympathetic to this intention of the Minister and also very particularly to the opinion expressed by the Teachers Union of Ireland, and I am not at this stage inclined to do anything other than perhaps assist the Bill past the Second Stage; but I believe it needs very drastic amendment on Committee Stage. Indeed I have to consider the situation in relation to what some of the implications of it are.
I might say at the beginning that there were some points in the speech of the mover of the Bill last evening with which I profoundly disagreed. On one occasion last night he said that in relation to the teaching positions themselves this is the only area in which the independent criteria of appointment are not now applied. I disagree with that profoundly because I might ask him, when he comes to reply, if he would explain to me what independent criteria there are for the appointment of secondary teachers in secondary schools.
They are not appointed by the State.
I am afraid that in his interruption Deputy Birmingham gives the game away. It is of course the nub of the matter that the highest and most impeccable standards must apply to the State. In that the Deputy would have my support — I have already spoken about this — but it is always in what is not included that one finds the mind of the person revealed. So far as I am concerned the brave spokesperson on Education would begin by addressing the issue of control in education generally and then move through the different sectors of education with courage and come to address the question of the appointment of teachers in all sectors. It may be acceptable to Deputy Birmingham, but it is not to me, that we subject vocational educational appointments to intense scrutiny but that there we limit our concern. I was horrified at what discussion took place on the famous Eileen Flynn episode in its day and I am only too well aware of the lack of accountability and transparency in many appointments in the secondary sector. That is not to say that all such appointments are not impeccable, but it is to say that I could find examples where it was at least unclear as to how a particular person came to be appointed. If we are to have transparency and accountability let it be for all teaching posts. I might move back to that other neglected issue which people approach with about as much enthusiasm as they approach the fires of hell, the question of the control of management in the primary sector. Who there will touch or question the appointment of a teacher? In the two sectors I have alluded to a name comes up to the Department for the payment of salary. The person is of course suitably qualified and a cheque goes down; but how many suitable applicants were there, and did it influence things at all that it was a past pupil or that the mother or father was a former pupil, or that so and so knew somebody else who was in charge of the particular institution? These are all issues of importance to those of us interested in a general sense in the issue of control in education.
It is very important, in this debate which is explicitly about vocational education that we have a sense of accuracy. I noticed last evening that there was a flair for history developing in the House. People were going back to Arthur Griffith, encountering John Marcus O'Sullivan on the way. I am interested in the history of vocational education as much as I am in the provision or inadequate provision for the same sector but it is important to bear in mind that vocational education was not established in this country without a great deal of difficulty and without a considerable amount of assurances having to be given to those who were concerned about it. The Minister, Deputy Mary O'Rourke, took up the historiography somewhere in the thirties and I may be able to be of some assistance to her in that regard.
John Marcus O'Sullivan established vocational education through the Vocational Education Act in the thirties, after very considerable guarantees had been given. It is important to bear in mind the kind of attitude that prevailed at the time. In his letter of November 1930 which he wrote to the Most Rev. Dr. Keane, the Bishop of Limerick, and addressed to the Palace in Corbally, Limerick, he mentioned all the things that vocational education would not possibly touch. He also gave other guarantees. People were worried, let us be very clear about that. The basic encyclical of Pope Pious XI, "The Christian Education of Youth" stated that "there was a difference of physical organism in inclination and disposition" existing between women and men and that this had to be taken into account.
The unfortunate Minister for Education had to suggest that VECs would regard co-education with some circumspection, that hours of attendance would be fixed so that young men and young women would not attend the same classes, and even that there would possibly be no night classes at all, in case they met on the way home. Considerable concern was expressed as to whether what was being proposed was Godless and maybe there would not be adequate arrangements for religious instruction and so on.
We have come a long way since then and we should be very grateful for that. If the Minister is thinking of bringing in a general education Act she should go back to the issue of control and ask what is the most appropriate way now to have democratic procedures in place so that we can say that education is controlled to some degree by those who pay for it — the taxpayers, parents and those involved in it, teachers and others. It is not by putting the cart very firmly before the horse that one will do that — by beginning with the question of the VEC teachers and moving back to the question of control. Who will address the people who wrote the letters to John Marcus O'Sullivan in his day?
Reference was made last night to Eoin MacNeill, our first distinguished Minister for Education. He was the first in a line that continued through John Marcus O'Sullivan's time. Eoin MacNeill had interesting things to say on education in his time. He said that nobody would do anything other than establish denominational education in Ireland. There was nothing particularly brave about that. He was not a great Republican or Nationalist in his statement. I do not want to get too involved in this, but the mentality at that time was very interesting. Eoin MacNeill gave a guarantee that there would be no disturbance of the donominational control of education. I failed in the Seanad and here on many occasions to establish on what basis was the control system of education established.
Before people start saying that everyone in the country was in favour of vocational education from the start, I want to tell the House that in a debate on the 1922 Constitution the one-time Leader of the Labour Party, T.J. O'Connell, sought to amend Article 10 of the Constitution. That was a minimalist article and he sought to add to it "All children of the Irish Free State Saorstát Éireann have the right to free elementary education". That is what it was. He was defeated and among the people who spoke against him were MacNeill and others.
In the debate on the 1937 Constitution, there was very little contribution on Committee Stage, one Deputy spoke about the importance of free footwear and basic conditions to enable people to come to school. This was defeated when it got less than ten votes. I give this as a corrective to the kind of glowing historiography we got last night, that everyone has been in favour of vocational education. The issue of control raised hackles, and what was achieved was achieved by giving guarantees. On the issue of disadvantage, any specific measures for the disadvantaged were opposed. The Act that was passed in the thirties was very good in many respects and the reaction to it was very interesting. There is no point in attacking politicians because they were reflective of a very interesting attitude that prevailed in the country.
The principal spokesman on education at the time in the pages of "studies" was the Rev. Professor Timothy Corcoran. Between 1912 and 1941, the year of his death, he wrote 37 articles on education in the journal studies. He was among those who referred to the materialism and rationalism of Froebel, Pestalozzi and Maria Montessori that had to be resisted. He referred to Maria Montessori's suggestions that her principles could be reconciled with Christian and Greek philosophy as "an astonishing specimen of braggart blasphemy". In one of his later articles published in 1940 he referred to co-education as "the promiscuous herding of the sexes together". Those are the attitudes that prevailed.
If you want to reform education you should go back and do all that. You should address yourself to the people who are claiming a control in education at primary level from a 19th century base on ideas such as that. You should look at the secondary level and ask about control, transparency and accountability there. Of course, one of the reasons vocational education is addressed is that, with all its faults, it is the only kind of State education we have. It is also a form of education that is uniquely addressed to the disadvantaged. It is very important to bear in mind that that is its history. Of course it has quite transcended that in recent times, particularly in the extention of its courses at second and third level and the number of courses it is offering of a novel kind, ones that are on the interface of technology and society, but it is State education. When everyone's heart is bleeding for vocational education, I claim I have a very interesting right to speak on that matter because I moved a motion on 8 March last drawing attention to the specific needs of vocational education and the consequences there would be for cuts in that sector.
I make these points in response to the tenor of the debate so far. I am a realist in many ways. My reservations, as I have said, is that I would prefer to move from the general to the specific rather than from the specific to the general. I am willing to go along with what the teachers' union feel they need for their members as professionals and I am willing to listen to Deputy George Birmingham when he says he wants to establish a principle of accountability. But I want him to note the consequences of what is happening here this evening, what happened last evening and what will happen next week.
There is an admission that local democracy is defective. I say that not only local democracy is defective if all the cases I heard of last night are true — and I know there are some cases of abuse. Why have such a cowed and cowardly population who, if they know there is corruption, will not speak about it? If they suspect corruption but do not want to prove it, why are they willing to speak so widely about it? Is it not one of those luxuries of a despicable population that they are able to say something without having to go to the trouble of proving it?
I am equally worried about the local authorities who elect members onto vocational education committees but yet never question them. Is it not open to a local authority who put members on a vocational education committee, against which an allegation has been made, to ask questions about the operations of the VEC? Again, one wonders. I do not disagree with any speaker last night who said that there have been abuses. I know of abuses in some areas, abuses which seem to be particularly bad. I want to express my sadness about it all. Why is it that we have to do this? Ideally, I would have liked to have heard the Minister for Education's proposals for the reorganisation of education, in terms of regional and local structures, and to fit the question of an independent body that would be separate from any taint or hint of corruption in appointment into that context rather than to have to address it in isolation.
I have some sympathy for the approach being taken by Deputy Birmingham in relation to the VECs themselves. I was not impressed by many of the VECs when the cuts took place. The cuts began in 1983 in the vocational sector, and people must be honest about that, but they were particularly savage in the period of office of the present Minister because there were cuts upon cuts. The Minister will excuse me not joining in in the general required congratulations.
The main question I want to ask is why were the VECs silent. The reason is that the political composition of the committees is very useful. They can keep their heads down while the Minister is under attack for under-provision in relation to the vocational sector but this is not an argument against committees as much as it is an argument against the members of committees. Questions should be asked by the public, by all those parents who were agitating and all the people who were expressing interest. They should ask: "why have you been rattling on in Dáil Éireann, talking about the problem?". Why have the unions been demonstrating and what is the attitude of the public to the cuts which have taken place? The public should ask themselves questions about that. They are the people who are being represented by local representatives on vocational education committees who have all suddenly lost their tongues, effected by a dose of silence. These would make me sympathetic to the idea that if that is their attitude in relation to the welfare of education, maybe in relation to appointments you would not be too confident about them either. I am an idealist in that regard and I still have some faith in local democracy. Therefore, at this point in my remarks, I should like to say that it is important to keep a balance in what we are proposing between local democracy, which is under threat, as local authorities are losing more and more of their powers and, equally, at the other end of the scale, where we are trying to achieve something which is the right of a professional — and I agree very much with Deputy Birmingham and others on this point not to have to do the rounds at the end of the 20th century canvassing county councillors for a position.
Last night nobody mentioned poor old George Russell, —AE— who wrote in 1913 about the gombeenism of the new State. He said all the appointments are in their gift and around this drunken gombeen system reels the whole new State and so on. He was particularly bitter about it. Think of what happened. The principal result of corruption in local government was the City and County management Act, 1940, amended in 1955. In between there was a great deal of discussion about the division of functions into reserve and executive functions. Can anybody tell me that they are entirely happy with the way the management system has worked out through the powers conferred by the 1940 Act? How accountable, for example, is the Association of County Managers in terms of their attitude towards proposals and so forth. As anyone who is an elected representative at present knows this is a profoundly alienating period. You are on a very low revenue base, you take no really effective decisions and as one of our representatives put it to one of our members not so long ago: "We are here to do our little jobs and the manager will handle the multi-million pound decisions".
The 1940 Act was a drastic addressing of corruption that was widespread in the new State in the twenties, through the thirties and up to the forties. We would want to be very careful about how we deal with the question of changing methods of appointment.
I want to see the vocational sector thrive and prosper. If those within it feel that they want even the suspicion or a hint of any interference in appointment removed from them, so that they can be integrated in another way and have a new relationship in such new structures as will come into being, I will accept that but I do so with a certain amount of sadness about what some of the implications are. I notice that the Minister's response to this Bill has been that she is preparing major legislation which will deal with all of these issues. While she is thinking of that legislation perhaps she would take into account the general issues I mentioned. The question of access is one for which we need money, obviously we are precluded from that discussion this evening. The question of curriculum is one from which I am blue in the face speaking to the Minister. The curriculum needs reform and it needs it urgently. I repeat my statement to her that she will be remembered as a Minister in the following terms: as to whether she allowed people to know the maps of their own society — how power is exercised in their lives, how other societies have come together to answer questions on the organisation of society, social literacy, political literacy and economic literacy. Third world countries, within five years of their revolution, establish these basic principles; they should be on the curriculum.
The issue we are addressing this evening is one of control. That is the general area within which this specific proposal fits in relation to appointments. In relation to control it is important that nettles be grasped. There are the many people that this Bill ignores. We must ask why people who speak on education do not want to address the question of how the management structure of denominational education in this country was established, from what legislative base or from what consensus? Articles are written tracing it back to the 19th century. Let us address them.
In relation to the second level system, when social history is written — now that history has broken out as a little orientation in this House — my advice is to remember the Eileen Flynn case but more than that, the networks that are important in Ireland and elsewhere. I disagree with Deputy Birmingham's suggestion that vocational teachers are the last area from which there is a whiff of politicisation coming from their appointments. That is a very depressed statement but there are many others. None of us is happy with many of the appointments emanating from the legal profession. In the medical profession there is a fair amount of networking going on. If you were a junior houseman to a consultant who decided he did not like you, and did not give you a good reference, tell me how you would go flying through the Local Appointments Commission in years to come and what kind of a job you would get. These are all realities.
I want to end by saying that vocational education is perhaps one of the most exciting areas of education. It is also one against which there has been a deep class prejudice in Ireland, a class prejudice that reveals many things, a conservative society, not very courageous about checking anything, fatalistic in much of its orientation, dependent and so forth. Everyone was quoting the 1930 Act last night as a kind of continuation education or vocational education. It is now much bigger. It is now one of the most progressive areas of education, or it can be, but it is also one of the most underfunded. For example, the Minister has yet to say in this House that she takes into account the extra cost borne by vocational education in terms of the materials and equipment for metalwork, woodwork, the necessity for having a high teacher-pupil ratio, the extra remedial work that has to be done, and the interface between the world of work and the world of school. These are all cases for extra provision. They are not cases for the levelling down from vocational education to some secondary level.
That is right.
I hope that when the Minister comes to review, as she will, the issues raised by the Bill and the general issues in education, she will tell the officials in her Department it is time they prepared true costings of how pounds are spent in the vocational sector. Many pounds are not spent in the same way as in the traditional secondary sector. I look forward equally to a very good relationship between the vocational and the comprehensive and community sectors, and the Minister would have my assistance in that regard.
This is the first time we have discussed vocational education without discussing the implication of cuts. This does not mean that they have disappeared from our minds. The teachers have left, the classes have got bigger and the materials are in short supply. I say it here again tonight: let us make a commitment to the sector and let it develop. If it is required that the appointment system needs this absolutely guaranteed system of appointment, I can go along with that, but I will go along with it after amending this Bill — and I have five of six amendments that I intend to put down and I will broaden the scope of accountability in appointments into the general second level and also into the primary level, and I will require that education spokespersons tell me what courage they have in addressing the general issue of control in Irish education.
The most significant aspect of this Bill is its brevity. While Shakespeare assures us that "brevity is the soul of wit", I am greatly afraid that as an elected member of a local authority, I find it more invidious than witty, as its enactment would be a further erosion of the powers of local statutory bodies. The vocational education sector of our education system had made a massive contribution to the commercial, industrial and cultural development of this nation. If the Bill is intended as a vote of no confidence in vocational education committees, it is to be regretted. The persons appointed down through the years to posts as teachers, or education administrators by vocational education committees, have well and truly vindicated their selection by the manner in which they have carried out the duties assigned to them in their respective schools. It tends to be forgotten than the role of the vocational education committees in the development of industrial skills predates AnCO, FÁS and any other agency you might care to mention. The responsibility for technical education was passed to the Department of Education in 1924 and since that time, but more especially since the Vocational Education Act, 1930, this system of education has been one of the cornerstones of economic development. It is timely to recall that in 1947 the day group certificate came into being and it is only now in 1989, in September of this year, that this vocational education certificate examination is being subsumed into the new junior certificate examination.
The junior certificate will incorporate in one set of papers the two former examinations from the vocational and traditional secondary school systems. In passing, one must congratulate the Minister for Education and the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment for steering this new system into place and bringing curricular unity into post-primary education. Change is in the air for education and the Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, and her Department are steadily, through a process of analysis and consultation, bringing together what I understand will be exciting new legislation.
In view of all this change I would envisage that the matter of teacher appointments will inevitably come up for examination and appraisal. This is all the more pertinent since the advent of the regional technical colleges to the vocational education field. I can readily understand that the appointment of principals and lecturers to this grade of college has certain dimensions which are specific to the qualifications and job specifications of highly specialist teaching posts.
Up to this time these appointments have been made by subcommittees on the model of the late Donogh O'Malley. The efficiency of these boards of subcommittees has been enhanced by the board's vocationally representative base which has been in place since 1979. There are few, if any, who would argue that the calibre of the persons appointed to posts in the regional colleges has been of the highest quality. The manner in which the colleges are administered by their principals and section heads has clearly vindicated the various appointments.
There is one aspect of these appointments, however, which calls for comment. It would be totally remiss of me not to raise the issue. I am sure that the Minister in whatever legislation she may choose to bring forward, will also address this issue. The matter I have in mind is the apparent imbalances that exist between men and women academics in third level education posts. In the foreward to the Higher Education Authority Report of the Committee on the Position of Women Academics in Third Level Education in Ireland, Professor Máire Mulcahy, chairperson of the committee, puts it succinctly when she says; "It appears that a programme of positive action in the institutions is required to expedite the matter". While there is legislative support and indeed a national policy for equality of opportunity, there is need for mechanisms to enable it. Should the Minister choose to make changes in the appointment of teachers at any or all levels I hope she will be mindful of the opportunity it would present for the correction of the imbalance that exists generally — one only has to look at the main findings of this committee which showed that only 5 per cent of women academics are to be found on the senior staff of the designated colleges.
At the outset I expressed my disappointment of the latent potential this Bill has for the further erosion of the powers of local authorities, or in this case the vocational education committees. If the powers of appointment are solely vested in the Local Appointment Commissioners this could be said of the Bill. If, on the other hand, the Minister were to exercise here undoubted ingenuity she might devise a scheme which would not totally erode the local authority influence. I would welcome this.
The Bill, of course, has serious limitations. It only refers to a committee established under the Vocational Education Act, 1930. The boards of management of community and comprehensive schools were not so set up. The VEC's are represented on those boards and under existing practice are partners to the selection process. The teachers, however, would perhaps have some difficulty with the notion that they as staff of the community and comprehensive system were being appointed to some degree by members of an authority who had been denied the power to appoint teachers of equal status to their own schools. Similarly, teachers in secondary schools might argue that their preference might well be for a system of appointment by a body external to their school and independent of it. This anomoly exists at the moment by virtue of the manner in which teachers are appointed, but it would be accentuated if appointments were made by the Local Appointments Commission for one school and not in another.
This leads me on to the conclusion that there is a different requirement for third level appointments. It also leads me to the conclusion that there is a different requirement for third level appointments as opposed to second level appointments. It also leads me to the conclusion that the authors of the Bill did not do their homework thoroughly, for teachers are affected by the provisions of the Bill. That, of course, takes us to a view that I hold strongly, and that is, that instead of this being a single isolated measure it would be better accommodated in a broader framework, some form of legislation that encompassed all the issues, especially the matter of education levels and their respective demands and requirements.
The Minister in her speech to the House on 21 February 1989 referred to the number of appointments being made annually. In the RTC's and VEC colleges only 30 to 40 appointments per annum are being made at present due to the financial constraints necessary to achieve the national economic objective. Appoinments at this low annual rate do not merit a fire brigade reaction at this time. The falling population and other demographic influences have had and will continue to have a serious impact on the post-primary school population. This is reflected in low staff recruitment and a parallel low staff turnover. Normal wastage due to death or retirement are the most likely and commonly occurring reasons for staff change in the post-primary sector. All in all one does not have to be a mathematician or a statistician to appreciate that machinery for teacher appointments at any level is not a numerically pressing issue at this time. Even if one concedes the desirability in the principle of revised and updated recruitment practices, one can still see merit in agreeing to change but not treating it as a panic measure that has suddenly become imperative. The Latin proverb “Festina Lente”, make haste slowly, would seem to be the appropriate wisdom in this case and accordingly I would urge that the authors of the Bill should wait until it would become part of a wider series of measures to rationalise education. Since the Bill impacts on both second and third level education systems it has difficult overtones that an amendment of the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926, will not adequately solve.
There is one area of teaching appointments that has always made me stop and think, that is, in the nature and variety and indeed repetition of advertisements for teaching posts. The rationalisation of advertising practices for teaching posts could be a cost saving measure. At a time when teacher employment is scarce it should not be necessary to mount expensive advertising. It might also be better to publish teacher vacancies on a set day each week in a uniform and cost-effective format. The private secondary schools have always managed well in the prepaid columns. As the Minister outlined in her speech to the House on Tuesday, the practice in the case of appointments to regional colleges has been to have selection boards subject to a maximum of 12 members widely representative of the wider community. The inclusion of nominees of neighbouring vocational education committees is an important factor here. The regional character of the colleges is emphasised by this inclusion. There are not too many overt acknowledgements of regionality and should a new system of appointments diminish this one, it would be a pity. Any appointments system should keep it in mind.
I have followed with much interest the debate on this proposal to amend the Local Authorities (Officers and Employers) Act, 1926.
The posts in question are of crucial importance for the educational careers of our young people. It is, therefore, appropriate that the Dáil should examine existing procedures for making appointments to these posts and introduce changes if there are substantial grounds for the misgivings expressed by the proposers of this Bill.
The proposal to give responsibility for making appointments to the Commissioners of Local Appointments is one which will arouse little opposition from any side of this House or, indeed, in the community as a whole. The Local Appointments Commission has carried out its tasks over the years with efficiency and impartiality. Not only has it functioned well but it has been seen to function well and offhand it is difficult to think of any public institution which enjoys more popular confidence. In principle therefore it would be hard to argue against the proposal.
Of course it is not sufficient that a proposal should have a sound theoretical base: it is of equal, or maybe even of greater, importance that it should be workable in practice and that the proposed procedures represent a substantial improvement on the procedures they replace. The application of these two tests to the making of appointments in the third level VEC colleges suggest some questions which should be raised in the course of our examination of this draft legislation.
It will be readily conceded that time is of the essence in filling vacant posts in any educational establishment. As far as the third level area is concerned, appointment procedures must operate in such a way as to ensure that the college authorities know well in advance of the commencement of the academic year the teaching staff who will be responsible for the courses which have been offered. It can happen, for example, that a key member of staff may depart during the summer vacation. It is essential that the college should have the flexibility to take such urgent steps as are necessary to find a suitable replacement. What I have heard so far from the proposers of this Bill does not reassure me that they have taken this possibility sufficiently into account. A possible way forward might be to reserve permanent, wholetime appointments to the Commissioners of Local Appointments and to retain existing procedures for part-time and temporary appointments.
There is one other point arising from the arguments that have been put forward in favour of this Bill. It has been suggested that in present circumstances appointments can be influenced by considerations unrelated to the qualifications and experience of the candidates. That is undoubtedly a theoretical possibility and the adoption of the proposed alternative would certainly eliminate it. But I have not heard a clear indication of the extent to which the present system is subverted in practice. Are we talking about something which could happen in theory but hardly ever happens in practice? If the present system works well in practice, as I believe it does, the question must arise as to whether we should not leave well enough alone.
It is important to raise these two questions which I am sure deserve further consideration before we proceed to a vote on this measure.
We are now at a very important juncture in Irish education. We recently had the decision to confer university status on the National Institutes for Higher Education at Limerick and Dublin. We have the coming into being of the new junior certificate which, as I have already said, marks the welding together of the junior examination certificates of both the traditional secondary and vocational systems. We have the satisfaction of seeking a worldwide demand for the graduates of our colleges, though we would encourage their going on other than a short-term experimental basis. In short, we are seeing the fruits of all the efforts of successive Governments and their respective Ministers for Education, not least the present incumbent of that office Deputy Mary O'Rourke. We are seeing the fruits of the efforts of public servants who serve the education sector. We are seeing the fruits of the unselfish dedication of teachers over all the years since national Independence. All these teachers, all these administrators, were appointed to their jobs by people who wondered at the time had they made the right choice. The passage of time and the fruits of their labours in terms of fine citizens, first class craftsmen, academics, technicians, workers at every level, is proof positive that their selection systems worked not well but very well indeed. We must act in a considered and deliberate way.
I would again urge the authors of the Bill to concede that its objectives will best be met by its being left to be part of a wider process of change by way of new legislation which would incorporate all the measures needed to equalise and maximise the whole education system and process which has been offered in the Minister's contribution last night.
Deputy Wright implied that there was an attack on the vocational education system, but that is not the case. We, on this side of the House, appreciate the contribution that vocational education has made to this country and we regret that resources are not being made available for the further development of vocational education.
We are not making a further effort to take powers from the local authorities. Indeed, it could be said that 1977 sounded the death knell for local authorities in relation to funding. This Bill is not an attempt to take more powers from local authorities. The Bill's purpose is to remove the appointment of vocational teachers from the political arena.
If this Bill was not acceptable to the Teacher's Union of Ireland, they would not have issued a statement today welcoming the introduction of the Bill. Their press release says that the Bill seeks to have the appointment of vocational teachers taken out of the political arena and have future appointments made by the Commissioners of Local Appointments, that for too long the appointment of vocatinal teachers had been tainted by allegations of political jobbery and that even where these allegations were totally unfounded they were given credence because of the fact that the appointments were made by political representatives. The press release goes on to say that the appointment of vocational teachers is the last area in which elected representatives make such appointments and that all other comparable appointments are made by the Local Appointments Commission. It says also that it is now high time teacher's appointments were made by a system which is seen to be fair and impartial and that the present Bill, if passed, will achieve this objective. If the teachers, the people affected most, disagreed with this view they would have come out with a contrary statement to the one they issued.
I am amazed at statements made by both Deputies O'Keeffe and Wright opposing this Bill. If the teachers agree with the Bill I do not understand why the Deputies should disagree with it. I wish to speak in favour of the measure and to compliment my colleague, Deputy George Birmingham, for dealing with it so ably here last night. I support the Bill because it proposes to introduce a fair and impartial procedure for the appointment of teachers employed by vocational education committees. It is of the utmost importance that teachers as professional people and, more importantly, as the guardians of our youth should not be appointed by procedures which are open to question. I regret to have to say that the present procedures have been questioned on a widespread scale. Even where appointments were carried out properly and well they have been the subject of suspicion because of the structure of the selection procedure. At present the appointment of vocational teachers is carried out by a selection committee who consist of five persons — four named members of the VEC and an officer of the Department of Education. This suspicion arises because the majority of the selection board are either local councillors or nominees of political parties.
I suggest that it is inappropriate that political representatives should be entrusted to make such appointments. It is unfair to the political representatives in that it exposes them to the possibility of being canvassed either directly or indirectly to vote for one candidate as opposed to another, not on the basis of a candidate's ability but on a party political basis. It is unfair to applicants in that they may feel they must make representations in order to have a chance of being appointed. It is also unfair to a successful candidate in that even if he or she is appointed on merit suspicion can still exist that political influence was brought to bear. Such a system undermines confidence not only in the appointment procedures but in the whole system of vocational education, This is tragic and should be put right by the removal of appointments from the political arena into the ambit of a recognised professional body such as the Commissioners for Local Appointments.
There is another reason I favour the Local Appointments Commission having responsibility for the appointment of vocational teachers. The members of vocational education committees are appointed to these bodies to formulate policy on behalf of the people of the area and to oversee the implementation of that policy in the school and colleges under their control. That system was introduced in 1930 by the then Cumann na nGaedheal Minister, John Marcus O'Sullivan, to serve this country well. The point I am making in relation to the Bill under discussion is that members of vocational education committees do not have the training or the expertise to interview teachers, school principals, lecturers in regional colleges and adult education officers nor indeed could they be expected to have. Interviewing and appointing teachers of a variety of subject disciplines is a skilled and specialised business and it needs to be handled by experts trained in the skill of interviewing and with sufficient specialised knowledge to ensure that the best candidate is appointed. Some of the appointments covered by this Bill would carry salaries of up to £25,000 and these are significant appointments by any criteria. The persons appointed will remain in the service for a considerable period of time and most important of all they are entrusted with the vitally important task of educating our young people.
I think Deputy O'Keeffe said that these people need local knowledge and knowledge of the ethos of the school. Does that mean that even though a teacher may be well qualified, because they would not fit into the ethos of a school they should not be appointed? I do not know what local knowledge of a school means because I am sure the same teaching is carried on in all schools. It is a very lame argument to say that the appointments committee should have local knowledge in order to appoint a teacher. I taught in a comprehensive school in Tarbet and there were teachers from all over Ireland in that school. Those teachers were appointed by an appointments committee who were based locally and I am sure they had no local knowledge when they appointed those teachers. We owe it to our young people, our teachers and ourselves as public representatives to ensure that appointment to these positions are above any shred of suspicion and are so designed as to ensure that the most able candidates get the job. By adopting this Bill we will meet those objectives.
There have been widespread demands for reform of the appointments system in the vocational sector, no least from the teachers themselves. Year after year at the Annual Congress of the Teachers' Union of Ireland motions are passed for reform of appointments in vocational schools and colleges. It is time to take cognisance of these representations and take a step which will be of great benefit to all concerned in vocational education. I know for a fact that representations have repeatedly been made by the teachers both to the Irish Vocational Education Association, the IVEA and to the Department of Education seeking a notice to the effect that "Canvassing will disqualify" to be inserted in all public advertisements for teaching posts. I regret that this provision, which is widespread throughout State and semi-State employment, did not find favour with the majority of vocational education committees. I wonder why.
Whatever the outcome of this Bill, I urge the Minister, in conjunction with the Irish Vocational Education Association, who are effectively controlled by her party at the moment, to have this provision implemented forthwith. In all advertisements for jobs within the vocational education system there should, like all other advertisements, be a sentence at the bottom of the advertisement stating that canvassing will disqualify. I cannot understand why that sentence cannot be inserted in advertisements for teachers in the vocational sector. As I have said, repeated representations have been made to the IVEA to have this provision inserted and I am boggled as to why it is not done. I call on the Minister to examine this matter. She may not be aware of the reasons it is not done at present but it deserves to be questioned and examined.
In the event of this Bill being passed by this House, and I confidently expect that it will be, all we will be doing is bringing the appointment of vocational education teachers into line with other professional appointments in the local authority services. If engineers, draftsmen, administrators, doctors and social welfare workers are appointed by the Local Appointments Commission, then why not teachers? This Bill does not seek any special consideration for teachers; rather it seeks to have them treated in the same manner as other comparable local government officers. Was it not for this very purpose that the Local Appointments Commission were set up in the first place and to ensure that our local authorities appointed staff in a fair way and were seen to do so, a way which would command the respect of all and which would not be tarred with allegations of political interference? If this is so, then we should use the commissioners for the purpose for which they were established. I was glad that Deputy Quill referred in particular to rate collectors who as recently as ten years ago were appointed by local authorities. Last night Deputy Molloy claimed credit for removing that responsibility from local authorities and giving it to the Local Appointments Commission. I understand that the appointment of rate collectors was one of the most politicised appointments by local authorities.
No matter what the politics of a teacher or rate collector, he or she should not get a job because of political affiliation. The best person should get the job. There should be no suspicion surrounding the appointments. At different times, different parties control vocational education committees. This Bill is aimed at taking that pressure from public representatives, which is very reasonable. I could not see why the Bill should not be accepted. I was somewhat amused to hear the Minister say:
The centralisation of selection procedures for VEC teachers under the Commissioners for Local Appointments would be contrary to the devolution of authority to the appropriate operational level.
This view was also expressed by Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, who expanded on it this evening. If this is so in the case of teachers, is it not also the case for the multiplicity of other professional grades in the local authority services that are appointed by the Local Appointments Commission?
The Minister's argument is without foundation as, indeed, is Deputy O'Keeffe's. The real block to decentralisation lies not in the area to which the Minister referred but to the stranglehold that she and her Department keep over the funding of the VECs. With the abolition of rates, to which I have already referred, the funding for VECs, as in other areas of the local authority service, became centralised. It was centralisation of funding which inhibited the local initiative of not only the VECs but every county council throughout the country. I am sure that Deputy O'Donoghue would agree with me in that.
Local authorities are ineffective now because they do not have the necessary funding, or else they cannot decide on how to spend the funding. Deputy Higgins mentioned that even when money becomes available from the EC, again the members of the local authorities will have no say in how it will be spent. It will be some official from the Department of Finance or the county manager who will have that say. The local representatives will have no say in the formulation of plans or in making decisions. The point has been made by Deputy O'Keeffe forcibly and by Deputy Wright that what we are trying to do here is take away power from local authorities, from local VECs. This is a small power and will not damage the local authorities substantially, or in any way, compared with the damage that has already been caused to them.
The Minister suggests that the number and variety of appointments would lead to delay if centralised. She suggests that 350 appointments are made annually by the VECs. I have been a member of a VEC for a few years and have seen very few appointments made.
The Deputy should continue with the rest of my speech. He is missing out a sentence.
I am not missing out a sentence. I would point out with regard to the education cuts which the Minister introduced that, as Deputy Higgins said, it did not start with the present Minister; it started, I think, in 1983, but the more severe cuts have occurred in the last few years. I do not want to upset our Minister coming up to the Ard-Fheis.
She is very hard to upset, as I discovered to my cost.
With the education cuts over which the Minister is presiding, is it not the case that she has been getting rid of teachers rather than appointing additional teachers? With the projected decrease in school population, the number of appointments will decrease rather than increase. Why was Deputy O'Keeffe making such a fuss about the delay? If you do not have any teachers to appoint, where will the delay come in? That argument does not stand up.
(Interruptions.)
Please, let the Deputy continue.
The talk about the delay in getting the appointments commission to come together does not hold. It is very easy to appoint the number of teachers who would be appointed anyway. This is an unfounded argument. The Minister, but even moreso the Deputies on her side, are trying to cloud the issue that is involved here.
The Minister referred at some length to the regional technical colleges and her intention to give them more authority within the VEC system. This is a sentiment with which I would agree totally. She suggests that appointments to the colleges will be revised in the light of the proposed legislation. If she brings forward this legislation as soon as possible she will have the total support of this side of the House, from all parties. It is very important that we now upgrade the role of regional colleges, especially considering their great potential with regard to the new structural funding and their role in the various regions. The sooner the legislation making their role more clear-cut and giving it more purpose is enacted, the better for the future standing of our regional colleges.
At present, according to the Minister, the appointment of staff to the RTCs is governed by a letter to the president of the IVEA dated October 1979. It is a pity that the provisions of the letter to which the Minister refers are not more widely circulated. To my knowledge there is confusion in the colleges concerning the appointment procedures. A matter of the importance of the appointment of staff in an RTC should, in any event, be the subject of a circular letter from the Department of Education to all the interested parties and not contained in a letter to any specific individual, irrespective of who he or she may be.
I certainly support vocational education. Being a former teacher in a comprehensive school, I am a vocational teacher. I believe that on the passing of this Bill vocational education will be strengthened. I know that where vocational education committees seek to assimilate staff from secondary schools into their system where schools amalgamate, one of the greatest problems experienced is the fear of those teachers that their promotion prospects will be affected by political considerations. That is an argument that I hear used all the time when vocational education committees or other groups are trying to introduce amalgamation around the country. The argument is given by teachers in the secondary sector that they would be afraid to enter into a system where promotion and the granting of posts would be in the hands of politicians.
There is a perception out there that it is not a fair system. I am not making any accusations against anybody, but that perception is there. This Bill is designed to remove that suspicion. It must be welcomed for that. Let us remove the appointment of vocational teachers from that area of suspicion. The objective will be achieved by the passing of this Bill. I compliment our spokesperson on Education, Deputy Birmingham, for bringing forward this proposal. I agree with Deputy Higgins that the appointments made both in the primary sector and the private secondary sector are also questionable.
Debate adjourned.