asked the Minister for Finance if his attention has been drawn to the allegations made by the European Commission regarding fraud and the large scale abuse of EC funds (details supplied); whether he shares that concern; and whether he has satisfied himself that these abuses do not involve Government Departments in Ireland.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Abuse of EC Funds.
10.
I am aware of the Public Hearing of the Committee on Budgetary Control of the European Parliament which was held in Brussels last January on the subject of "prevention and combating of fraud against the Community budget in the Europe of 1992". There was a series of speakers, which included President Delors and several other representatives from the Commission. The public hearing received a considerable amount of press publicity.
It is important to note that none of the representative's of the Commission attempted to quantify the level of fraud. However, I share the Commission's concerns in this matter and I am satisfied that there are no abuses involving Irish Government Departments.
In so far as the Commission itself is concerned, a Unit for the Co-ordination of Fraud Prevention (UCLAF) has been established under the direct responsibility of President Delors. This unit has been given the role of co-ordinating and monitoring the activities of the various directorates within the Commission. It has a power of initiative as regards rules and methods, has management responsibilities and acts as the Commission's representative in relations with the member states. The unit is in the process of visiting all the member states, and indeed has been invited to Ireland. During its visit here the unit will have the chance to discuss all matters dealing with the prevention and combating of fraud with Ministers and with officials from various Departments in the framework of an Interdepartmental Co-ordination Group set up under the auspices of the Department of Finance.
Is the Minister satisfied that allegations cannot be made in that framework against native Irish beef exporting companies? Whereas we accept the Minister's assurance that Government Departments are not involved, is the Minister certain that the alleged fraud cannot be laid at the door of certain beef export contracts out of this country?
I am sure the Deputy is aware that there have been cases and that cases are pending in relation to fraud allegations. I do not propose to comment further on it.
Would the Minister agree that the amounts of money involved are very substantial and that they specifically include beef exports?
Various figures are being tossed around as to the extent of fraud. We have heard figures as large as 10 to 20 per cent of the budget, figures of nine billion ECUs and so on. The figure has never been quantified although there is no question but that a serious fraud has occurred. The Department of Finance are chairing and co-ordinating the interdepartmental committee, and the Government are concerned, we will co-operate fully with the Commission in trying to combat this fraud.
Would the Minister agree that the fraud has been in excess of £10 million?
I have no idea of the figure. The figures are being tossed around and there are figures which are the subject of court cases coming up. It is for the courts to decide on the facts.
In the light of the——
I do not propose to comment further on those cases.
But the Minister would agree——
A final question Deputy.
——that a fraud does appear to have been perpetrated?
I will not comment on that. That is to be decided in the High Court.
You are the Minister for Finance, you are responsible.
Question No. 11 please.
I will not comment on what the courts may or may not decide. They will have all the facts in front of them on which to decide. I will not speculate.
I have called the next question.
The Minister's defensive stance is being singularly silent.
Who is being singularly silent? I did not even have to give the Deputy that information if I did not want to. I am not being singularly silent. The courts are there, the cases are before them and they will be dealt with——
The Chair should be obeyed by all sides of the House when he calls the next question.