Gay Mitchell
Question:7 Mr. G. Mitchell asked the Minister for Social Welfare the number of pensioners with mixed insurance records who have between five and 19 Class A1 contributions.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Pension Contributions.
The question refers to pensioners with mixed insurance records, which denotes a pensioner with an employment background some of which was insurable at the full rate and some of which was insurable at modified rates, which does not give cover for old age (contributory) pension. There is no data readily available on the number of pensioners on the Department's books with employment records of that nature or, more important, on the number of persons who failed to qualify for reduced rate pension because of their records of mixed insurance. In order to obtain a reliable estimate of the likely numbers involved, it has been decided to carry out a survey during the coming months.
The issue of mixed insurance for pension purposes is being given detailed consideration by the National Pensions Board and it is expected that they will be bringing forward proposals in their next report, which is expected later this year.
I welcome this movement on the part of the Minister. This is a matter which my colleagues and I have been pursuing and we have been wondering how the Minister proposes to deal with it without having the data referred to here. I am anxious to know the nature of the survey, can he give us a time scale for the completion of the survey and how he anticipates the National Pensions Board can make any decision in relation to this issue without having some idea of the scale and the likely take-up? Can he say — this relates to comments made during the debate on the Social Welfare Bill — if he accepts in principle that pro rata pensions should be payable? Does he have the resources to carry out the preparatory work?
As far as the general question is concerned, the Deputy will know that it is a very complex issue. It affects not only previous pensioners but also existing pensioners and future pensioners because of the mixed insurance. Obviously it is related to the whole question of insurance for the public sector because about half the public sector, 140,000, are in the full scheme and 160,000 are not in the full scheme. That situation affects the mixed insurance. Out of that 160,000 there are people who can at any time come into mixed insurance. They are the people who are going to Deputies but, of course, they are retired. When you talk to somebody who has not yet retired they do not particularly want to know about this because it means bringing them into the full insurance. It is a complex matter and it is one on which we are trying to get an estimate of the numbers that would be involved. I do not have the likely timescale for the completion of that study other than to say that it is under way at this stage. I imagine it will not take very long to complete.
In relation to the National Pensions Board, all these groups — part-time employees, the mixed insurance group and the other groups such as the public sector who are not in the whole system — are inter related. Whenever a question arises I know that Deputy Byrne says that we refer to the study which is taking place. These are major questions with major financial implications. The board are coming close to the completion of that report and I hope to have it some time during the summer.
I welcome the indication in relation to the establishment of records. I would like to feel it was as a result of our prodding and the Minister's unwillingness to come in here with no information month after month that has led him to do that. Does he not accept that while he has established the principle of a pro rata pension for one group of pensioners, whose contributions are between five and 19 Class A1 contributions regardless of their other contribution records, anomalous treatment exists now in relation to other groups of pensioners with the same contribution records, who are being excluded from pensions? That issue has to be faced relatively soon. We could all face it much better if we knew the scale of the problem.
It is quite different in its nature because as I have said before in this House, the people whom I could deal with were those who were caught in a short-term situation which was overcome in 1974. That matter was open and closed. They were shut out and they were allowed back in again.
In principle.
There were those who, due to that restriction, were adversely affected.
So are these.
It was possible to put a figure on it and to say what it would cost and how many people would be involved. It took some time to do that but, nevertheless, it was possible to have it done. In regard to mixed insurance it is not as straightforward, as I think the Deputy will appreciate. In relation to the prodding, I could not agree with that because I started out very urgently to bring the self-employed in. I would have brought more people in at that time if it were feasible but I could only do what was feasible at the time. I hope that the report which will come from the National Pensions Board will give us the basis on which to go further.