Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Apr 1990

Vol. 397 No. 10

Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Local Government Reform.

Ruairí Quinn

Question:

1 Mr. Quinn asked the Minister for the Environment , in view of the urgency of the need to provide a structure for local government reform in the Dublin area which was partially implemented by the last Coalition Government, if, having regard to the enormous delays and difficulties which are being experienced by the local government system in the Dublin area, he would be prepared to indicate, on an interim basis, his proposals for the restructuring and reform of local government in the Dublin area in advance of any document which might be published; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Alan Shatter

Question:

2 Mr. Shatter asked the Minister for the Environment the steps the Government are taking to undertake a review of local government structures; and the steps, if any, being taken to undertake a review of local government financing.

Eamon Gilmore

Question:

5 Mr. Gilmore asked the Minister for the Environment if he has carried out any examination of the use by some local authority members of section 4 of the City and County Management (Amendment) Act, 1955, to grant planning permissions and allow developments which materially contravene development plans; if he intends to introduce any legislation to curb the abuse of section 4; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Minister for the Environment (Mr. Flynn)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1, 2 and 5 together.

As Deputies will be aware the Programme for Government included a proposal to establish an Oireachtas committee — an all party committee — to examine and report on the general question of local government reorganisation. Unfortunately not all political parties were willing to contribute to the proposed committee which presented a means of dealing with the question. All are aware of the need for local government reorganisation and reform; it is a question which has been considered by successive Governments over the years but little has happened.

With the failure to establish the proposed Oireachtas committee the Government decided to bring forward and implement proposals for reorganisation. A statement issued by the Government Information Service on 5 April outlined the Government's intentions in this regard. A copy of that statement has been placed in the Oireachtas library.

The overall objective is to strengthen local democracy and to devolve additional functions to local authorities where practicable. What is needed now is action to secure progress. The Government have accordingly appointed a special Government committee for the purpose of making recommendations on the structures and functions of local government; to consider the regional dimension; the criteria on which the contribution from central funds to local authorities should be made on a statutory basis; the operation of aspects of the Planning Acts including "section 4"; and other relevant matters including reserved/managerial functions and the general powers of local authorities. A committee of experts is in the process of being established to assist in this task. Related matters such as the question of local government in Dublin are being considered in the context of the overall reform proposals.

The intention is that the necessary legislation will be put in place in time for the local elections in 1991 and the arrangements to which I have referred are designated to achieve this end.

Mr. Shatter

Is the Minister aware that in his party's election manifesto in 1987, Fianna Fáil undertook to carry out a comprehensive reorganisation of local government structures and promised legislative reform? Can the Minister explain to the House why in the three years he has been in office no such reforms have been brought before the House? In the context of the Minister's previous term in Government up to the June elections of 1989, perhaps the Minister would indicate to the House the steps taken by him, as Minister for the Environment, to implement the promise that he would bring forward reform?

Mr. Flynn

Considerable work has been done and will continue to be done and will now be linked into the new committee that will be dealing with this matter. The Minister was very concerned over the past few years in getting matters sorted out at local authority level. Through the policies of the Minister and the Government we have been able to stabilise the financial position of local authorities. Considerable inroads have been made in reducing the very large deficit that existed in the local authorities and which was not addressed by the Fine Gael-Labour Government. Also we have secured improvements in local authority finances and in the discipline necessary to manage those finances. We have implemented a number of very significant financial reforms, such as the introduction of capital grants to replace the circular transfers and the question of subsidies. Statutory demands have been eliminated. As announced recently court house maintenance will also be eliminated from the responsibility of local authorities. Quite an amount has been done but now there is the opportunity to finally put together the recommendations that will be brought forward by way of legislative proposals at an early date.

Mr. Shatter

Can the Minister indicate what specific steps were taken to implement the promise contained in the 1987 general election manifesto of the Fianna Fáil Party to undertake a comprehensive reorganisation of local government structures? What structural changes have taken place in local government since he became Minister? What specific work has he undertaken since 1987 regarding local government structures? In the context of the Government consideration that apparently is now about to be given to local government reform, can the Minister indicate specifically what examination is to take place of the financing of local government and what consideration, if any, is to be given to providing local authorities with a means of raising independent funding?

Mr. Flynn

The Minister will continue to be active in getting together the best package of local government reform that is possible. The only regret I have in the matter is that the Deputy opposite refused to participate in what would have been seen as a genuine way to follow on their expression of reform which has so often been made in this House. The opportunity was offered to Fine Gael and they refused to do it.

Mr. Shatter

The Minister wants to be taken off the hook on his promise of 1985-86.

Mr. Flynn

The opportunity was also there in the Fine Gael-Labour Government of 1985 when they promised legislation. They had some years to do it, they did not do it. Now they are complaining about lack of activity and they are also unable or unwilling, for some reason best known to themselves, to participate in what would be seen as a genuine way of implementing their concern in so far as reform is concerned. The issue relating to local authority finance is set out in the press statement. The committee of Ministers will consider the criteria on which the contribution from central funds to local authorities should be made on a statutory basis. That will be part of our deliberations.

Mr. Gilmore

Is it intended to abolish the section 4 provision of the City and County Management (Amendment) Act or to amend it in such a way as to prevent its continued abuse by some members of local authorities?

Mr. Flynn

The question of changes in the present legislation in so far as section 4 is concerned would be one of the matters that would fall to be considered in the context of the local government review which we are undertaking.

Mr. Gilmore

Does the Minister accept that there is persistent abuse of the section 4 provision particularly in relation to planning matters? For example, in Dublin County Council since 1985 there have been 100 material contraventions, 90 per cent of which have been proposed by the Minister's own party? Would he share the opinion which has been expressed publicly by the Leader of the smaller party in Government, that the section 4 provision of the City and County Management (Amendment) Act needs to be amended or, perhaps, abolished to prevent such persistent abuse? Does he accept that there is abuse of this provision by local authorities.

Mr. Flynn

Certainly if it needs to be amended the review is the appropriate means by which to do so. We will be looking at the matter as referred to by the Deputy.

Mr. Gilmore

Has the Minister——

An Ceann Comhairle

I would remind the House again that we are dealing with priority questions. Admittedly we are taking three together, but there are two priority questions still remaining to be disposed of.

Mr. Gilmore

Has the Minister or his Department carried out any examination of the abuse of section 4 by local authorities? Have the Department monitored the abuse and, if so, what information is available to them? Is the Minister concerned, having regard to his expressed desire to reform local government, that some local authorities fail at their monthly meetings to get past section 4 and material contravention motions, that these motions are now totally dominating the agenda of local authorities — I am referring particularly to Dublin County Council — to the extent that those local authorities cannot do their normal business?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have to say we cannot debate section 4 notices today.

Mr. Gilmore

I am trying to elicit information.

An Ceann Comhairle

Brevity, please. A brief question.

Mr. Gilmore

Have the Department carried out any examination or review of the abuse of the section 4 provision?

Mr. Flynn

We are not here to consider the question about abuse in any circumstances. The statistics on the incidence of section 4 motions passed in relation to planning applications are published annually by the ERU and that has been taking place since 1983. The details of the statistics are available and they were given in response to a parliamentary question some little while ago.

An Ceann Comhairle

Question No. 3, please.

Mr. Shatter

A brief supplementary. Would the Minister agree that the question of the funding of local government must be dealt with in the context of an overall reform of both local and national tax policies? Will he indicate to the house whether the review his committee are now going to undertake of local government will give consideration to the raising of local charges? Will he confirm that the Government are no longer adhering to the promise made in the local elections of 1985, namely, that they were going to bring to an end the operation of the Local Government (Financial Provisions) Act, 1983, which provides for local authorities to make local charges, that the Government now believe local authorities should raise charges? Is that the case?

Mr. Flynn

We, as a Government, are putting great emphasis on the need to get the structures and functions dealt with first.

Mr. Shatter

The Minister is evading the funding issue which is fundamental to local democracy.

Mr. Flynn

Any reforms we consider appropriate of course could have implications in relation to aspects of local authority finance, and they will be considered, along with the other recommendations, in the context of the contribution from central funds to local authorities which would be necessary and would be implemented in a statutory way.

Mr. Shatter

You are not addressing the issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us proceed to Question No. 3.

Mr. Shatter

You are reneging on the promises you made in 1985. That is why the Minister is running away from the local elections.

Mr. Flynn

It is difficult to understand why the Deputy keeps harping on this matter when an opportunity was offered to him, to his colleagues and to his party to have a major input by way of participation in a select committee. They ran away from their obligations——

Mr. Shatter

The Minister is running away from the electorate on the issue and from his promises in 1985.

Mr. Flynn

——and from their oftenstated intention of being supportive of government reform and local authority reform. They cannot have it both ways.