Thank you. I thank all Members who have contributed to the debate. The House will be aware that a similar Bill was discussed in the House in February 1989, during the currency of the previous Dáil. At that time I set down the appointment procedures at present in operation for teachers in vocational education. I also pointed out that the particular regulations governing these appointments were drawn up in 1967 and amended in 1979.
I wish briefly to set out here what the appointment procedures are. All full-time posts are to be advertised. For appointment in second level schools eligible candidates are interviewed by a selection board consisting of five members — three nominees of the vocational education committee, one of the Irish Vocational Education Association and one nominee of the Minister for Education.
In Deputy Bruton's and Deputy Deenihan's submission great play was made of the fact that these boards were composed of politicians. I set out the regulations which, by law, must be obeyed. In second level schools the selection board consists of five people, three nominees of the vocational education committee, one of the IVEA — a very respectable organisation — and one nominee of the Minister for Education.
In the case of the regional technical colleges, the selection board consist of the chief executive officer, three other members of the board of management — at least one of whom is a vocational education committee member — and a nominee of the Minister. There is provision for short listing by the selection board where the number of applicants is excessive. It is clearly stated in the case of second level appointments that proposals by vocational education committees for appointments should be made in accordance with the recommendations of the selection board.
In the case of appointments to RTCs the same arrangements, though not explicit, are understood to apply also. I will refer in more detail later in my contribution to the regional technical colleges.
When this matter was before the House in February 1989, former Deputy George Birmingham was the main Opposition spokesperson on Education and the question of amending the Vocational Education Act, 1930, was raised. It was indicated from the Government side that the amending of the Vocational Education Act, 1930, was under consideration, particularly the rationalisation of the vocational education committee service through the amalgamation of some of the existing committees. It was my intention to consider the question of teacher appointments by the vocational education committees in the context of amending the 1930 Act. It is important to recognise that the Bill would be, in effect, an amendment of the Vocational Education Act, 1930.
A number of developments affect the operation of vocational education committees which lead me, and the Government, to the conclusion that the time is not opportune to proceed with the legislative amendments to amalgamate VECs.
I would refer the House to the amazing diversity and growth in the scope and nature of the work carried out by the vocational education committees. I note that in the contributions by the Deputy Leader of Fine Gael, and by Deputy Deenihan, there was no reference to the enormous work being carried out by vocational education committees. There was no recognition of their clarity of purpose, their long historical tradition and their magnificent and thorough response to emerging educational needs, far beyond the chalk and talk of regular classes conducted by teachers.
The vocational education committees have followed the remit given to them in 1930. I freely acknowledge that the people who framed that Act were the most sagacious people ever to be in an educational service here or anywhere in the world. The Act was framed in such a flexible and open way that it allowed for developments that could not have been foreseen. The system as then envisaged was based on the teaching of manual trades, technical subjects, husbandry and subjects of a prescribed technical nature, yet the framers of the Act saw to it that the necessary flexibility was there to enable a vocational education committee take on all sorts of other activities. The men and women who have occupied administrative and elective positions since have honoured to the letter the remit they got. Members of the committees, who served voluntarily, set out in 1930 in bad circumstances, in little huts and halls, and followed on from Horace Plunkett and the Technical Instruction Act. They adopted the developmental ideas which were abroad in an emerging nation. Members of these committees still opt to serve voluntarily. They are people who in the main put themselves up through the democratic process.
I have no wish to alter what I said on the last occasion a Bill of this type was proposed and I quote from what I said then:
I have always thought that anyone who goes for election, be it to a local urban council right up to the highest office in the land, is exercising a very noble option. When teaching young people and at political meetings I have often said that it is very easy to decry the democratic process. As we all know various pressures combine to denigrate the work of elected persons. At the same time a person who goes forward for election puts himself or herself in front of the population at large. They knock on doors and invite responses. They go to the ballot box and are vulnerable. Therefore I think we should espouse and guard the democratic process in all of our doings.
I said that nearly two years ago and I stand over it.
I do not wish to imply that Deputy Bruton was snide; he spoke in a very friendly and open fashion, as did Deputy Deenihan. It is not correct to seek in any way to pull down the elective process or the actions of elected people. We speak in a legislative Assembly to which we were elected by the same process as those elected to vocational education committees. I have to make that very plain in the cause of democracy.
Even in the last two years the operations of vocational education committees have diversified and expanded in line with their remit in the Vocational Education Act, 1930.
I want to pay fulsome and sincere tribute to the people, elected and administrative, who operate our vocational education committees. The Youthreach programme is operated jointly by my Department and the Department of Labour. This programme is targeted at people aged from 15 to 18 years who are at least six months in the labour market and who left school without any formal education or training. The programme is intended to provide participants with the knowledge, skills and attitudes required to make the transition to work and adult life. The programme was started in 1989 through 11 vocational education committees and provided 600 places. A further 500 places are being provided in 1990. Further expansion of the scheme is envisaged for 1991. There has been very welcome co-operation between Departments who, previously, were suspicious of each other. They have come together with the vocational education committees in this very fine development.
An amazing example of vocational education committee activity is the implementation in 1989 of the vocational training opportunities scheme. This scheme is aimed at giving unemployed persons over 21 years of age the opportunity to follow full-time education and training. There are now, in its second year of operation, 33 groups of 20 people involved in the scheme spread over 24 vocational education committees. Again, it is the intention to expand the scheme in coming years.
There are vocational preparation and training programmes in which the vocational education committees play the major role. These have continued to increase and diversify and we are in the process of devising a system of recognition of VPTs. All the vocational education committees are operating the vocational preparation and training programmes, either VPT 1 or VPT 2, and in some instances both. There is need for a coherent approach to a system of recognition and accreditation for those schemes. We hope to have a consultative process completed by Christmas and we will then draw up a national scheme to recognise the work of VPTs on a regional basis.
Vocational education committees will come together, with a local input, with modules suited to the environment, then get national recognition of their work study and what has been achieved thereby. It is a great advance, again carried out joyfully by the vocational education committees in the full knowledge that, is so doing, they were expanding the range of options of young people.
In 1990 the allocation for adult literacy and community education targeted at disadvantaged areas was greatly increased. Virtually all of this allocation was given to the vocational education committees who were informed that literacy was a top priority. They have responded magnificently. Before Christmas I am arranging the coming together of all the vocational education committees to undertake an audit of what they have done and to plan for the future.
Another area in which the VECs have responded is that of providing greater scope for and range of activities in the demand for all-Irish education. As a natural follow-up to developments at primary level, second level all-Irish schools are now being provided at an increasing rate, in the main under the aegis of the vocational education committees. For example, they have been provided this year in Carlow, next year in Kilkenny and Bray, with Meath and so on to follow but, wherever they are established, they come under the aegis of the vocational education committees.
In the light of these recent developments — which add to the already diverse role played by VECs in the education and training system — the Government have decided to postpone for the present the question of the rationalisation of the VECs so that the question of bringing forward amending legislation to this end does not arise at present.
In the meantime I have been giving detailed consideration to the Private Members Bill before the House this evening. There are a number of points I might make in regard thereto.
First I should say that appointments to vocational schools are very much in the minority given that such schools comprise approximately 6 per cent only of the total number of all schools, that is to say that there are some 3,200 national schools, 500 secondary schools in the voluntary sector, 60 or so community and comprehensive schools and 250 second level vocational schools. In the case of all of these schools the appointment of teachers is a matter for their management authorities. In those circumstances I am not at all certain that it is reasonable to target VECs for special treatment.
Surely in an era in which we seek to have devolution, to have participatory local democracy, to have people take control of their lives, to have people take decisions by way of elected structures at local level — as do the boards of management of primary schools, and the boards of management of voluntary secondary schools while the numbers of religious involved in education decrease — more and more boards of management and, in some instances, lay principalships come into play as community and comprehensive schools have their boards of management, all with full professionalism taking their decisions at local management level and undertaking their deployment procedures and recruiting their teachers, it would be extraordinary that we would seek to pick out 6 per cent of the schools of Ireland and say to them: you must take another route; you cannot be depended on by way of local democracy; you cannot be depended on to be employed by local management groups; you are something different; you have to go to Dublin to the Local Appointments Commission.
While appointments to VECs technically are made to the committee's scheme as a whole generally they arise out of the needs of individual schools. Accordingly, the requirements of a particular locality are of the utmost importance. This is particularly true in the case of some of the programmes I have already outlined. For that reason those making the selection should be fully aware of the needs of a particular school or locality.
The selection/appointment process nowadays is seen more as an interactive one where the selection board, in addition to assessing the suitability of a candidate for the job, are involved in supplying the candidate with information regarding the post and its demands. It is not a begging position. Rather it amounts to circumstances in which a young adult presents herself or himself to an interview board when a strong interactive process then follows. The question of "mutual suitability"—that is candidate to job and job to candidate — is frequently in question. Selection of this nature requires detailed knowledge of the post, its duties and the environment in which they are performed. The further removed is the selection from the operation of the system the more difficult it is to carry it out on the above basis.
In line with Government policy generally my Department are anxious to devolve as much responsibility as possible for the educational process to local management. The centralisation of functions is at variance with the idea of local bodies having responsibility for matters affecting their everyday lives. The proposal that the appointment of teachers in vocational schools, and to those schools alone, should be determined centrally runs counter to this policy and argues against local democracy.
One must look also at the nature of teacher appointments before deciding to remove this function from the local arena. In the case of vocational schools, in common with other schools, the bulk of appointments arises at a particular time of the year; generally they must be made in time for the opening of the school year. Quite often a VEC will not be fully aware of their requirements for a particular year until quite close to the time schools reopen after the summer vaccation. Indeed, even after the commencement of a school year, if for example there was an unexpected increase in enrolments, if the VPTPs — which are now widely advertised in vocational schools — resulted in extra numbers as they often do because young people now have various options of training, third level education and so on — it takes time for all of that to settle down and assume a shape which often does not happen until the end of September. Repeat leaving certificate courses are becoming a popular option — all the schools are advertising such courses. If, for many reasons, there is an unexpected increase in enrolments then the staffing plans of a school may be subject to alteration. Of course, this is true also where unexpected vacancies arise in the course of the year.
Teaching posts differ from administrative ones in that they can rarely be "carried" for any length of time; the classes and students are there and the teachers must be provided. In such circumstances any appointments procedures must be one which can react quickly to particular needs. The current system has that merit. The fact that appointments are spread over a number of committees means also that no one body is faced with making as many as up to 200 appointments within a relatively short space of time.
The House will be aware also that the demographic trends affecting second level education indicate that enrolments are set to fall fairly dramatically in the mid-nineties. In the case of individual areas this trend has become evident already. Added to that is the fact that funding for vocational preparation and training courses is dependent on moneys emanating mainly from the European Social Fund. In such circumstances it is reasonable that, for a time, a number of teaching posts, although whole-time, in the initial stages must be regarded as temporary whole-time. Of course the Local Appointments Commission do not deal with such. Furthermore, in order to allow greater flexibility in the use of teacher allocation a significant portion of teaching strength sometimes is in part-time provision.
The Bill before us also includes appointments to posts of responsibility. Deputies should be aware that the first "A" post and all "B" posts in any school are confined to teachers in that school. Other "A" posts are confined to teachers within the VEC scheme overall. Again, given the relatively confined field of candidates involved I suggest it would be inappropriate to have such appointments made through the Local Appointments Commission.
I might refer now to the position of the VEC colleges. I hope to be in a position shortly to introduce legislation in regard to the future status and structure of these colleges. Indeed, the matter has been cleared and the legislation has gone to the parliamentary draftsman for preparation. It is my intention that each college would have its governing body responsible for the selection of its staff. While that governing body would be under the aegis of the appropriate VEC, I would envisage them having much more autonomy than is currently the case. Of course this will apply to the selection of teachers and lecturers. I do not believe that when these new structures are put in place they will give rise to any demand for appointments to be based on recommendations of the Local Appointments Commission.
Here I come to an anomaly. Deputy Bruton and Deputy Deenihan referred to the fact that this was a longstanding viewpoint of the TUI, for 20 years. I acknowledge freely that they came to see me on this matter and they put it to me, but in other talks and negotiations the TUI put forward the point of view very strongly that they wished the colleges — and I will be bringing in Bills shortly for the regional colleges and all VEC colleges — to remain under the aegis of the VECs. Therefore, there are two points of view put forward here by the TUI, one that in the selection process 6 per cent of the total primary and second level should somehow mysteriously be taken out of local democracy and plonked at the Local Appointments Commission, yet the strong wish expressed by them in writing and in negotiations and to which I gave assent was that the third level colleges should remain under the VECs. In that regard the Government of 1983-87 before they went out of office had published a Bill providing for the colleges to be removed from the VEC sector. That was strongly resisted by the TUI. I put those facts forward for the record.
The Government will not be supporting this Private Members' Bill as I have no immediate plans to bring in amending legislation to the Vocational Education Act, 1930. I will undertake, however, to give consideration to this question should there be a need in the future to amend the Vocational Education Act.
Before concluding, I should say that in any proposal to change existing procedures, the question must first be asked whether the system as at present constitutes works satisfactorily, and I put forward that it does, eminently. It should be pointed out that when the question was put to the Local Appointments Commission in 1976 the view expressed by the commission at that time, when there would be huge growth in teacher numbers because the numbers of pupils were going up and up, was that the system "is well designed and operates satisfactorily". This view was confirmed again two years later in discussions with the Local Appointments Commission.
Deputy Deenihan said the reluctance of secondary teachers to amalgamate was due to the appointment system of VEC. That is a bit rich because all sorts of difficulties arise with regard to amalgamations but I have never heard that put forward. The appointment of voluntary secondary teachers is certainly not in the hands or lap of the Local Appointments Commission. I would imagine the appointment of vocational teachers is very open, very democratic and fully answerable for by the people who have been elected in the first place. We talk of power and the people. Let the people decide and make their choice. If you elect people on to the county council or borough authority from which the VEC is then formed, how can you on the one hand say, "We believe in the democratic process; we put our faith and trust in these people" and then say, "Yes, but you are not to do that; we do not believe in what you are doing"? It is a very false premise and the whole Bill for that reason is flawed. It is flawed because it is referring to only 6 per cent of the educative process. It is flawed if you believe in devolution, in local management structures and people taking responsibility for their own lives and their own decisions, if you believe in the professionalism of people, the voluntary nature of the VECs and the long tradition of vocational teaching. Let me say I have yet to meet a teacher who was appointed through a VEC who has not proved herself or himself to be truly professional and committed to the course of education and to carry out his or her job in a very fine, dedicated way. Point me out a teacher who has come through the VEC selection procedures and who is not to the best of his or her ability doing a fine job for the young people.